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Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex

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TheMason
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 8th, 2013 @ 04:48 PM Reply

At 2/7/13 05:30 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 2/7/13 04:55 PM, TheMason wrote:
My argument is that it makes access to the goods easier. It makes a person an easier target than someone who is dressed in say jeans.
Does it? It if doesn't actually increase the incidence of rape, how is it relevant?

Because it is not about reducing the incidence of rape, but of making oneself less likely to be raped. I'm not saying that I want anyone to get raped. But I've got a 14yo daughter, and I would rather her be the one who goes out attractively and stylishly dressed in jeans/pants and have a rapist choose her friend who is dressed in some sort of skirt. If the rape is going to happen I don't want it to be my kid or my wife.

If dressing less vulnerably makes it another girl...my heart goes out to that girl and her family...but I'll be honest in that I'm thankful for whatever kept my kid safe.

Yeah...I'm an asshole. I'm the father of a daughter and a husband. It's my job to be a prick!


You may have arguments about it taking 5 minutes longer or being slightly harder, but does that deter anyone from raping a girl?

It may not deter the rapist from raping a girl...but it may deter a rapist from raping a particular girl.

====

Think about it this way, say a guy goes out with the intent of slipping a girl a drug and making her vulnerable. Now he targets my daughter, but she knows that she should:
* Not accept an opened drink from a stranger.
* Not leave a drink unattended.
* Not allow herself to become isolated from her friends or a public area.

The guy may choose another target over her. My daughter probably did not stop a rape from happening...but she took preventative measures to reduce her chances that the girl victimized was her.

We live in a free society where people can express themselves however, and largely live their lives how they see fit. We have no fashion police like say Saudi Arabia. If my daughter follows these guidelines and her friend does not...and the guy with the roofie decides to assault the girl in a dress not paying attention to her drink instead of her...then I think there is some degree of responsibility for the woman not using common sense to protect herself.

Kind of like the last USAF Sexual Assault Prevention & Response training I had to take. They showed a news story of an underage girl visiting a college campus. She got drunk (even though she was a HS senior) and passed out in a frat house bedroom. She was in the middle of a gang rape when two of the girls at the party with her intervened. And she was passed out due to alcohol...not drugs.

The instructor asked if the girl had any responsibility for what had happened to her. One NCO was unequivocable that she had no responsibility...that she was 100% a victim.

But I disagree. Had she not been drinking when she was not even legal to do so...she would not have passed out. Especially given that she was essentially surrounded by strangers. She would not have passed out in a strange male's bedroom.

Now in this case her clothes were irrelevent. But, considering that in other cases how you dress can make you more vulnerable...better to err on the side of caution don't you think.

====

Then there are the self-defense aspects of some clothing restricts your ability to get away (ie: long and/or tight dresses) and the longer it takes for him to get it off...the better your chance of someone hearing your cries for help your squirming out of his grasp and getting away.

Prevent a potential rape (Suggestion #5.)


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poxpower
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 8th, 2013 @ 05:22 PM Reply

At 2/8/13 04:48 PM, TheMason wrote:
Because it is not about reducing the incidence of rape, but of making oneself less likely to be raped.

Those are.. the exact same thing :O
If the incidence of rape is the same no matter how you dress, then it doesn't change how likely you are to be raped.

Yeah...I'm an asshole. I'm the father of a daughter and a husband. It's my job to be a prick!

Well if you are making her dress in a specific way because you personally hold a false belief ( i.e. that rapists would be more likely to rape her simply because of clothes ) then you are an asshole haha. That's basically what the Muslim do with their burka bullshit, they think other guys will rape their wives if their wives dress "slutty" ( aka don't wear a hazmat suit 24/7 while outdoors).

Again, I am not saying clothing has no effect. But before you make rules about it, shouldn't you actually have some kind of evidence to back them up?

I haven't seen any.

The instructor asked if the girl had any responsibility for what had happened to her. One NCO was unequivocable that she had no responsibility...that she was 100% a victim.

Yeah well that's debatable I guess.
Legally, the rapists shouldn't get less time / punishment anyway, so really, whether she has 100% or 0% of the blame, the outcome is the same for the criminals.

Now in this case her clothes were irrelevent. But, considering that in other cases how you dress can make you more vulnerable...better to err on the side of caution don't you think.

Well again, you are paying a price for your caution. The price is not wearing what you'd like to wear. If that gives you peace of mind even if it's not backed by evidence, that's called a "superstition", like carrying around your anti-lion rock in your pocket because you think it prevents lion attacks.
"Better to err on the side of caution" you'd say. "The rock is small and easy to carry!".

So here again, the price seems small, but how much less likely would she be to get raped depending on her clothing? 10%? 1%? 0.00001%?
It matters.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 8th, 2013 @ 11:42 PM Reply

At 2/8/13 05:22 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 2/8/13 04:48 PM, TheMason wrote:
Because it is not about reducing the incidence of rape, but of making oneself less likely to be raped.
Those are.. the exact same thing :O
If the incidence of rape is the same no matter how you dress, then it doesn't change how likely you are to be raped.

By definition those aren't the same, one involves an individual, the other involves rate of occurrence.

Warforger
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 9th, 2013 @ 11:12 AM Reply

You hear that girls? Every man who wants to be alone with you wants to rape you. And it's your fault when it happens.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 9th, 2013 @ 12:08 PM Reply

At 2/9/13 11:12 AM, Warforger wrote: You hear that girls? Every man who wants to be alone with you wants to rape you. And it's your fault when it happens.

This is nothing other than overreacting. Meant to steer the conversation away from the actual issue and make it think that any conversation about lowering the chances of being targetted is nothing other than the World trying to make women barefoot nd pregnant. While I do not deny that there are definitly some who talk this way with that goal in mind, most talk about this issue knowing much less about it than they really should.

But when it comes down to it, conduct CAN dramatically increase the chance of getting targetted for rape, and saying otherwise is just as blind as those who say skimpy clothes always = rape.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 9th, 2013 @ 02:27 PM Reply

At 2/8/13 05:22 PM, poxpower wrote:
Those are.. the exact same thing :O

wrong. 2 different things completely.

If the incidence of rape is the same no matter how you dress, then it doesn't change how likely you are to be raped.

you know that thing I said the other day about you not letting anything interfere with your extremely narrow scope of reality, you're doing it right now. This is one of the dumbest statements i've seen. If a guy is looking for someone to rape, yeah he might get his chance with someone. however, this does not absolve you from taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to protect your own safety. If you accept a 'free drink' from a stranger and wake up in a cheap motel room then yeah, you screwed up. if it all your fault? not necessarily. however you DO have some of the blame for it.

now if you come home, walk into your house and get ambushed by a guy who picked the lock to your door and was waiting for you, then it's all on him.

Well if you are making her dress in a specific way because you personally hold a false belief ( i.e. that rapists would be more likely to rape her simply because of clothes ) then you are an asshole haha.

false belief? consider facing reality. wearing a miniskirt gives the rapist far better access to his target than a pair of pants. pants you would have to remove. you can simply move the panties aside and have your way.

Again, I am not saying clothing has no effect.

lies. you just said that clothes don't make a difference.

But before you make rules about it, shouldn't you actually have some kind of evidence to back them up?

I haven't seen any.

common sense tells you not to punch a beehive. however, an internet search finds no evidence on why you should not punch a beehive. likewise, there are no scientific studies on punching beehives and it's effects.

still, you wouldn't walk up to a beehive and punch it, would you?

The instructor asked if the girl had any responsibility for what had happened to her. One NCO was unequivocable that she had no responsibility...that she was 100% a victim.
Yeah well that's debatable I guess.

debatable? getting drunk at a frat party is a recipe for disaster. it's like trying to


Now in this case her clothes were irrelevent. But, considering that in other cases how you dress can make you more vulnerable...better to err on the side of caution don't you think.
Well again, you are paying a price for your caution. The price is not wearing what you'd like to wear. If that gives you peace of mind even if it's not backed by evidence, that's called a "superstition", like carrying around your anti-lion rock in your pocket because you think it prevents lion attacks.

guess what, when i walk down the street at night, i carry can of pepper spray. no one has attacked me yet, but i still carry it just in case. why? i don't believe in fair fights and i doubt they do too. you could say that since i've never been attacked, i don't need to carry my pepper spray.

"Better to err on the side of caution" you'd say. "The rock is small and easy to carry!".

now you're just being stupid.


So here again, the price seems small, but how much less likely would she be to get raped depending on her clothing? 10%? 1%? 0.00001%?
It matters.

depending on location and circumstances, somewhere between 100% and 0%. it all depends on the situation. sitting at home, probably 0%. at a bar with other single women, especially if they're dressed like prostitutes, probably closer to 70%-100%

now, one benefit to wearing pants is if they follow you, into say, a bathroom at a party (and yes it happens), is they have to remove them so you can make more noise and put up a bigger fight before they get their way which has a better chance of attracting attention. they have to undo the button, probably the zipper too and pull them down, with the women kicking and screaming the whole time. if you're in a miniskirt, they can just pin you to a wall. push the panties aside and go at it while holding your mouth shut. Given that too many women know nothing of self defense and tend to hit very lightly, the man can just shrug off their attempts at fighting them off.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

poxpower
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 9th, 2013 @ 04:16 PM Reply

At 2/9/13 02:27 PM, Korriken wrote:
If the incidence of rape is the same no matter how you dress, then it doesn't change how likely you are to be raped.
you know that thing I said the other day about you not letting anything interfere with your extremely narrow scope of reality, you're doing it right now.

Do you guys really not know the definition of the word "incidence"???
???

Again, I am not saying clothing has no effect.
lies. you just said that clothes don't make a difference.

No I didn't, I said I see no evidence that suggests it.

common sense tells you not to punch a beehive. however, an internet search finds no evidence on why you should not punch a beehive.

Yeah I can find plenty of evidence on the net about what happens if I punch a fucking beehive.
What are you even talking about?? Lol.


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Warforger
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 9th, 2013 @ 04:28 PM Reply

At 2/9/13 12:08 PM, Camarohusky wrote: This is nothing other than overreacting. Meant to steer the conversation away from the actual issue and make it think that any conversation about lowering the chances of being targetted is nothing other than the World trying to make women barefoot nd pregnant. While I do not deny that there are definitly some who talk this way with that goal in mind, most talk about this issue knowing much less about it than they really should.

It's pure double standards. How many times in other crimes do people blame the victim? How many times when someone is car jacked do people blame the car owner? How about mugged? In nearly every conversation while there are precautions you can take to stop it you generally know what you can and can't prepare for. Most of these crimes people don't say the victim did anything wrong, they generally think they thought they were safe and someone came up to them and hit them when they were vulnerable. When it comes to most crimes the first thought is on the crininal, when it comes to rape the first thing that comes to mind "...well she should've known". Saying things like "don't walk alone with men" or "make sure what's in your cup is really what you think it is" is like saying "you should put iron bars on your car window" or "you should carry a gun with you everytime you walk outside".

Besides this doesn't do anything in the case when rape happens in the home, because not all rapes occur in a bar.

But when it comes down to it, conduct CAN dramatically increase the chance of getting targetted for rape, and saying otherwise is just as blind as those who say skimpy clothes always = rape.

Right, the problem is that it isn't always effective and it doesn't focus on what we need to focus on, male culture. Male culture is why in South Africa rape is so common, but no it's women that always have to conform to the defects of men and men don't have to fix anything about themselves, like how it's always been in everything.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 10th, 2013 @ 04:48 PM Reply

At 2/7/13 03:05 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 2/7/13 01:53 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote: Women get all kinds of privileges in this society;
I think your sig tells us more than enough about your view of women.

That they are hot and I like them? Yep, that's my view.


no, really...DON'T CLICK THE PIC

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 10th, 2013 @ 04:50 PM Reply

At 2/7/13 04:01 PM, Saen wrote: a bunch of crap

You moron I'm not talking about the girls you hit on at your nursery school. I was taking a more political slant on the issue. U missed that because you've been taking too many steroids and all the blood in your body is in your 3inch flaccid penis.


no, really...DON'T CLICK THE PIC

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 10th, 2013 @ 05:48 PM Reply

At 2/9/13 04:16 PM, poxpower wrote:
Do you guys really not know the definition of the word "incidence"???
???

doesn't matter. they're not the same.

No I didn't, I said I see no evidence that suggests it.

Fair enough.

Yeah I can find plenty of evidence on the net about what happens if I punch a fucking beehive.
What are you even talking about?? Lol.

yeah, but there are no scientific studies on punching beehives, no labcoat has put out anything that says, "punching beehives is a bad idea." which seems to be what you demand on the whole clothing and rape issue. sometimes, it's just common sense not to punch a beehive.. or dress in a way that makes it easy for a man to get to your girly bits. I will admit though, people today have a total lack of common sense, it's why we have thousands of deaths each year from drinking and driving and thousands more from texting and driving. both of which common sense tells you not to do, and yet people do it anyway


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 10th, 2013 @ 06:01 PM Reply

At 2/10/13 05:48 PM, Korriken wrote:
At 2/9/13 04:16 PM, poxpower wrote:
Do you guys really not know the definition of the word "incidence"???
???
doesn't matter. they're not the same.

So without knowing the definition of one of the two concepts, you assert they are the same?

yeah, but there are no scientific studies on punching beehives,

You don't need scientific studies to answer the question, you just need to survey the people who get raped. There's tons of things we know simply by observing population samples and asking people questions about their lives.

Before you say there's no consequences, remember that the Taliban dress their women the way they do so other men don't get tempted. The entire concept behind the burqa is to "protect" women from rapists and men's sexual desires.

Explain how they can't use Mason's "well it takes 5 minutes more to rape a veiled woman than a woman in jeans!" argument here? The only reason he thinks jeans aren't TOO slutty is entirely a byproduct of the culture he lives in. 80 years ago, jeans WERE too slutty.

The point of all this? Before we tell women how to dress and what consequences they should expect from dressing like "sluts", maybe we should actually check if it makes any difference, and how big that difference is.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 10th, 2013 @ 07:56 PM Reply

At 2/8/13 04:08 PM, TheMason wrote:
I'll end up having an academic basis that is as strong as the one upon you are building your house of cards. The difference between you and I is that you are looking at this purely through an emotional lense.

You're making this an emotional issue by personally deciding what you would consider to be slutty clothing. There is no logical or technical way of measuring this, cultures and opinions, even among guys, vary on what's dressing too provocatively.

Dressing in a bikini is about as "slutty" as you can get. Therefore, wouldn't rape be significantly higher at the beach more than any other area? Are rape incidences significantly higher during foam parties, nude parties, etc.? These are the types of scenarios you need to look up and find data in order to make your point valid, if you wish to be logical about it.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 12th, 2013 @ 11:47 AM Reply

At 2/10/13 06:01 PM, poxpower wrote: You don't need scientific studies to answer the question, you just need to survey the people who get raped. There's tons of things we know simply by observing population samples and asking people questions about their lives.

You're suggesting that self-reported anecdotal evidence is sufficient-enough to preclude the need for scientific study? Yikes. How remarkably uncharacteristic of you.

You also seem to be implying that surveying rape victims is some simple, straight-forward procedure. Which is dumb. It's not like you're the first person to think of doing that, it's been done by various groups already, and there's still no clear-cut definitive answer as to how much (if at all) attire affects likelihood of rape.

Wouldn't it also make more sense to survey not the victims, but the attackers? To ask them what THEY think provocative dress 'is', and whether that at all factored into their motives and actions? Well, that's been done before also. From the brief amount I read, it would appear from those surveys that victim attire is not a primary component of a rape attack. But that is not to say that it isn't a component at all.

At 2/10/13 07:56 PM, Saen wrote: Dressing in a bikini is about as "slutty" as you can get. Therefore, wouldn't rape be significantly higher at the beach more than any other area? Are rape incidences significantly higher during foam parties, nude parties, etc.? These are the types of scenarios you need to look up and find data in order to make your point valid, if you wish to be logical about it.

I think Mason had made it pretty clear that attire is one factor out of many that determines a potential victim's vulnerability and attractiveness as a target. If you wanted to be logical about it, you'd acknowledge this and not pretend that attire is being proclaimed as the be-all end-all.

Hm, why isn't rape significantly higher at the beach, hm, I wonder. Maybe it has something to do with beaches being wide-open public spaces that have lots and lots of people on them, most typically during daytime hours? Sure, you want to study different scenarios or whatever, but ones that provide almost no opportunity for an attack to even occur (let alone go unnoticed by a very large group of people) are probably NOT the most relevant scenarios to be studying.

-----
-----
-----

Anyway. Provocative attire, by definition, provokes. But provoking attention is not equivalent to provoking rape. A girl dressed like a slut will get more attention from everyone, other girls included. If a rapist is looking for a target and that rapist actually has a *choice* of targets, then okay, he might direct his attack towards the more attractive, more scantily-dressed girl, all OTHER factors being equal. But all other factors are seldom (if ever) equal.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 12th, 2013 @ 12:23 PM Reply

At 2/8/13 05:22 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 2/8/13 04:48 PM, TheMason wrote:
Because it is not about reducing the incidence of rape, but of making oneself less likely to be raped.
Those are.. the exact same thing :O
If the incidence of rape is the same no matter how you dress, then it doesn't change how likely you are to be raped.

Um...no, not it is not the same thing. Incidence is the rate or how often something happens. What I'm talking about is an individual doing things that will either keep her from getting raped...or help her escape a rapist.

Now, to spell it out so we're on the same page of the dictionary...
* It does not effect the incidence of rape because the rapist still rapes...just someone else. Therefore it does not effect the overall trend...just the individual's life.


Yeah...I'm an asshole. I'm the father of a daughter and a husband. It's my job to be a prick!
Well if you are making her dress in a specific way because you personally hold a false belief ( i.e. that rapists would be more likely to rape her simply because of clothes ) then you are an asshole haha. That's basically what the Muslim do with their burka bullshit, they think other guys will rape their wives if their wives dress "slutty" ( aka don't wear a hazmat suit 24/7 while outdoors).

False equivalency much?

* It is not a false belief. It cannot be proved or disproved. There is no data so at this point...it is neither false or true.

* Secondly, it is not just about rape prevention. If a guy has to fight with your clothes to get them off of you...it gives you time to either escape or have cries for help answered. This is basic self-defense and it works for both a woman at a club or a dude walking down the street. And this is not a false belief.

As for bringing up Muslims...

There is a difference between why they enforce (in some countries like Saudi Arabia) a strick dress code and what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking preventative measures to protect yourself (that works in more than one situation). Whether it prevents a person from being raped is debateable as to whether or not it is a trend or just a few random cases. But I'm looking out for my kid's well-being.

In Muslim countries we're talking about a way to repress women. They are saying that women are asking for it, and are morally inferior temptresses who will lead men astray morally.

The instructor asked if the girl had any responsibility for what had happened to her. One NCO was unequivocable that she had no responsibility...that she was 100% a victim.
Yeah well that's debatable I guess.
Legally, the rapists shouldn't get less time / punishment anyway, so really, whether she has 100% or 0% of the blame, the outcome is the same for the criminals.

And again...I am not saying that it should reduce the outcome for the criminal. Rapists belong in jail, rooming with large dicked sociopaths who get off on raping rapists every 8 hours.

On the other hand, people are responsible for their own actions. Like in the USAF while I waas on active duty, if I engaged in an activity that was high risk and did not use proper safety equipment and practices...and got hurt I'd be monetarily responsible for my injuries.

So yeah, I think we should teach women that while under no circumstances are they to blame for a rapist's action...there are things that she can do to keep from it happening that she is responsible for.

Well again, you are paying a price for your caution. The price is not wearing what you'd like to wear. If that gives you peace of mind even if it's not backed by evidence, that's called a "superstition", like carrying around your anti-lion rock in your pocket because you think it prevents lion attacks.

Umm...
1) It's not necessarily superstition if, in terms of one aspect of an activity, there is no evidence either way.
2) The clothing you wear does have an effect on how an assault (whether sexual or not) goes down. Wearing high heels can make running away problematic whether we're talking about a rapist, mugger, or lion. Wearing hard-to-get-off pants gives a woman more chances to escape and for someone to respond to her cries for help.


So here again, the price seems small, but how much less likely would she be to get raped depending on her clothing? 10%? 1%? 0.00001%?
It matters.

Yes, but does it also help her in the case of she is raped?


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 12th, 2013 @ 12:31 PM Reply

At 2/10/13 07:56 PM, Saen wrote:
At 2/8/13 04:08 PM, TheMason wrote:
I'll end up having an academic basis that is as strong as the one upon you are building your house of cards. The difference between you and I is that you are looking at this purely through an emotional lense.
You're making this an emotional issue by personally deciding what you would consider to be slutty clothing. There is no logical or technical way of measuring this, cultures and opinions, even among guys, vary on what's dressing too provocatively.

Umm...not at all? Afterall...I have already said that wearing any dress makes it easier than wearing jeans. I even brought up traditional housewife dresses...so I'm not singling out slutty clothes. So...your point fails.


Dressing in a bikini is about as "slutty" as you can get. Therefore, wouldn't rape be significantly higher at the beach more than any other area? Are rape incidences significantly higher during foam parties, nude parties, etc.? These are the types of scenarios you need to look up and find data in order to make your point valid, if you wish to be logical about it.

Sorry, but the bikini point falls on its face. You're talking about going to a public place in the middle of the day where there are tons of people...including families and a strong police presence. So guess what? This reduces risk of rape, and is a safe and appropriate place to dress this way.

As for naked parties these are controversial social experiements. Therefore, the people throwing the party have incentives to keep them safe. Furthermore, you're not walking to the party naked and in college towns where there is a bar district, walking past isolated dark areas that facilitate rape.

So sorry...but this is just obfuscation.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 16th, 2013 @ 06:53 PM Reply

What about women priests tho

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 18th, 2013 @ 11:55 AM Reply

At 2/16/13 06:53 PM, Earfetish wrote: What about women priests tho

What about them?

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 19th, 2013 @ 07:07 AM Reply

At 2/18/13 11:55 AM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 2/16/13 06:53 PM, Earfetish wrote: What about women priests tho
What about them?

Is it sexist to disapprove of them?

"The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." - Corinthians

actually I was drunk and wanted to bump the thread
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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 11:32 AM Reply

At 2/12/13 12:31 PM, TheMason wrote:
Sorry, but the bikini point falls on its face. You're talking about going to a public place in the middle of the day where there are tons of people...

lol we were discussing a scenario just like this not too many posts ago, a scenario which you brought up and were defending avidly.

including families and a strong police presence. So guess what? This reduces risk of rape, and is a safe and appropriate place to dress this way.


As for naked parties these are controversial social experiements. Therefore, the people throwing the party have incentives to keep them safe. Furthermore, you're not walking to the party naked and in college towns where there is a bar district, walking past isolated dark areas that facilitate rape.

Nightclubs don't have incentives to "protect" women from rape as they are not liable. Of course you don't walk to a nude party naked rofl, you strip at the party! I've made plenty of examples of were the clothing worn would made the mechanics of rape easier, which you have not addressed. Show that rape incidences are higher in any of these environments and I'll concede.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 12:58 PM Reply

Lets face it, if feminists listened to the facts and statistics involved in male oppression when compared to female oppression, they wouldn't be feminists.
Feminism- the group for people with tiny self-esteem who pin their hang-ups on everyone born with a penis.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 03:59 PM Reply

Oh sorry, forgot about this tread :p

At 2/12/13 11:47 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote:
You're suggesting that self-reported anecdotal evidence is sufficient-enough to preclude the need for scientific study? Yikes. How remarkably uncharacteristic of you.

Well first of all, you can't do scientific studies on rape involving experiments because that's not really ethical.
So really, case reports is all you'll have to go on.

I don't see the big problem in looking at what they were wearing, that's not something that's a matter of opinion. Just write down the type of clothes. My guess is they don't do it because it sounds wildly inappropriate :p

But that is not to say that it isn't a component at all.

Well that's what I said.
You can hypothesize that it COULD matter, but does it?
No evidence on that as far as I know.

At 2/12/13 12:23 PM, TheMason wrote:
False equivalency much?

No, it's exactly the same haha. Like, LITERALLY, EXACTLY THE SAME THING. You're just doing it less than they are.

* It is not a false belief. It cannot be proved or disproved. There is no data so at this point...it is neither false or true.

There's lots of data and none of it suggests that clothing really changes anything.
It's not the best data, but hey.

But I'm looking out for my kid's well-being.

Yeah they say that too.

So yeah, I think we should teach women that while under no circumstances are they to blame for a rapist's

Yeah, but again, is dressing less slutty one of those things?
I mean, you seem to have pretty much admitted by now that you have no idea. So honestly, if your girl went out to some party with a tit crack the size of the grand canyon, would you say something? Would you tell her "well I have no idea if it matters, but you'll do as I say!"haha.

1) It's not necessarily superstition if, in terms of one aspect of an activity, there is no evidence either way.

Well there is a lot of data and none of it suggests you're right. You can always say we need more data, but so far.. yeah.

2) The clothing you wear does have an effect on how an assault (whether sexual or not) goes down.

Yeah but again, what's that worth?
It's like wearing a helmet on your head all day long in case someone drops a brick on you. You can sit here telling me all day long about how I'll be so glad if I have the helmet when it happens, but it ain't happening unless I get impossibly unlucky and if I do smart things like not walk under buildings under construction.

So if you're being a dick to your daughter for something that ultimately doesn't matter, you'll have inconvenienced yourself and her on top of starting a bunch of stupid fights and having a shittier family life for basically no actual gain other than your peace of mind.

So yah.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 04:08 PM Reply

At 2/21/13 03:59 PM, poxpower wrote: I don't see the big problem in looking at what they were wearing, that's not something that's a matter of opinion. Just write down the type of clothes. My guess is they don't do it because it sounds wildly inappropriate :p

;;;;
I'd like to point out there has been a huge increase in reported rapes in Eygpt as well as the ones lately in India.
Those women while not covered in burk's are covered head to toe, often with no more than the hands & face exposed & in the case of Eygpt not always the face is exposed !

Just wanted to point that out.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 04:31 PM Reply

At 2/21/13 11:32 AM, Saen wrote:
At 2/12/13 12:31 PM, TheMason wrote:
Sorry, but the bikini point falls on its face. You're talking about going to a public place in the middle of the day where there are tons of people...
lol we were discussing a scenario just like this not too many posts ago, a scenario which you brought up and were defending avidly.

Dude...you do realize that there is a difference between a beach setting where there are wide open spaces, daylight visibility, ope family-orientated businesses, etc...and something like bar hopping or a frat party where a predator could relatively easily incapacitate and isolate a woman from people who would come to her aid.

So no...we were NOT discussing a scenario just like this one.



As for naked parties these are controversial social experiements. Therefore, the people throwing the party have incentives to keep them safe. Furthermore, you're not walking to the party naked and in college towns where there is a bar district, walking past isolated dark areas that facilitate rape.
Nightclubs don't have incentives to "protect" women from rape as they are not liable. Of course you don't walk to a nude party naked rofl, you strip at the party! I've made plenty of examples of were the clothing worn would made the mechanics of rape easier, which you have not addressed. Show that rape incidences are higher in any of these environments and I'll concede.

A few things:
* You do not address the core of my point that women often wear clothing that makes rape easier while frequenting areas and activities that could help facilitate rape.
* Instead you parrot my point about not traveling to the naked party...naked. You obfuscate the issue and attempt to camoflauge your lack of response by a feable attempt at making what I said sound absurd instead of addressing the point.
* You're actually wrong about the nightclub's liability...especially if they are hosting something like a naked party or BDSM event which is sexually charged. If a rape happens at one of these events...the club owner could find themselves liable.
* I have addressed the issue of clothing that makes the mechanics of rape easier. Here's a reminder:
-- The attractiveness/sluttiness of the clothing is a seperate issue. June Cleaver in her conservative, Stepford Wives sundress would be easier to rape than a submissive wearing a latex body suit (as long as their is no zipper in the crotch).
-- My whole point centers around wearing something that provides easy access when engaging in activities that could facilitate a rape such as drinking or walking from club to club in a bar district.
--Wear a slinky dress to homecoming & dances, wear a bikini at the beach, or take it all off at a naked party. But if you're going to a frat party or bar hopping...you may want to wear jeans.

Finally:

While I do want to see a decrease in the incidence of rape...

When it comes to my wife, daughter and female airmen:
I
DO
NOT
GIVE
A
FUCK...
...if what I'm saying has an overall impact on the rate at which rape occurs.

All I care about:
* Is that it is someone else's daughter who gets raped over my daughter. (Hey...I know this makes me an asshole. But, when/if you ever have a daughter you will feel the same way.)
* Is that if my wife or airman is assaulted the clothes she's wearing buys her time to:
-- yell for help...and that help to arrive.
-- provide the time for opportunity to escape to present itself.

No one deserves to be raped. Nor should how they were dressed or activities they were engaged in (I know a girl who was into the BDSM scene who was doing a bondage event and was raped)...EVER be a defense for rape. Do not confuse what I'm saying as assigning blame OR providing a basis for a criminal defense of rape.

All I'm saying to the women in my life is: be responsible and PROACTIVE in preventing rape from happening to YOU! You do this by:
* Remaining vigilient in high risk areas such as bars and parties. If a cute guy you don't know offers to buy you a drink only accept it from a waitress or bartender...but is preferable to watch the drink be opened/poured.
* Dress appropriately for the situation with an eye towards risk. Dress attractively...but also defensively. Don't make a potential rapist think you'll be an easy mark. Make him work for it.
* Do not isolate yourself from the group...unless you are planning to have consensual sex.
* When first meeting a cute guy talk about your father, his gun collection, the 90 acres of isolated farmland he access to, and his two buddies who came back from Iraq not just quite right. ;)


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 04:52 PM Reply

At 2/21/13 04:08 PM, morefngdbs wrote: I'd like to point out there has been a huge increase in reported rapes in Eygpt as well as the ones lately in India.
Those women while not covered in burk's are covered head to toe, often with no more than the hands & face exposed & in the case of Eygpt not always the face is exposed !

Just wanted to point that out.

A few things:

* There are vast differences in cultural norms and mores regarding both sex and rape (as two seperate issues) between Egypt, India and the US. So any comparison (irregardless of the side the event supports) suffers from validity problems from the start.
* It is not only the 'slutty' factor of clothing or how much skin is exposed that is the issue. What is she wearing underneath the burkha (when I was in the desert you could see jeans peeking out of the bottom of their burkhas) or sari? Afterall, bondage outfits could make rape harder than a conservative housewife's dress.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 06:32 PM Reply

Rapes of all kinds has far more to do with situational factors than the clothes a woman is wearing.

The time, place, size, aloneness, intoxication, and so on are the factors that exist in rapes. Put two girls with the same vulnerabilities in the same situation in differing clothes and their chances of being raped is the same.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 07:31 PM Reply

At 2/21/13 06:32 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Rapes of all kinds has far more to do with situational factors than the clothes a woman is wearing.

Um...the clothes a woman is wearing would be a situational factor.


The time, place, size, aloneness, intoxication, and so on are the factors that exist in rapes. Put two girls with the same vulnerabilities in the same situation in differing clothes and their chances of being raped is the same.

Statistically speaking...the data just is not there. And that is the problem with this debate, it's not like gun control where there are firm and conclusive studies and stats. And so to make your conclusion...or mine...is a matter of opinion instead of firm, scientifically established facts.

Where I'm coming at this is from the numerous Sexual Assault Prevention & Response training through the military, as well as my several cop buddies. In the absence of academic/scientific data...go with the opinion of professionals.


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 08:16 PM Reply

At 2/21/13 07:31 PM, TheMason wrote:
Statistically speaking...the data just is not there.

Well you'll find a lot of sociologists and women's rights advocates say that the data shows it doesn't matter.
But everyone knows those two fields of study / activism are bullshit, so take that for what it's worth :D

OH RAPE IS ABOUT PUWRRR AND DA PATRIARCHY ARRRFF


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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 21st, 2013 @ 10:39 PM Reply

At 2/21/13 07:31 PM, TheMason wrote: Um...the clothes a woman is wearing would be a situational factor.

But it's not. No rapist is going to be triggered by the sexiness of a target. Certain rapists are triggered by a certain article of clothing, but there's nothing that indicates that that article of clothing will nessecarily be a sexy or skimpy one (e.g. a knit sweater could be the trigger, and those aren't revealing or sexy by any means.)

In other words, the amount of reveal the clothes have do no have that much of an effect, if any at all, on whether the wearer is likely to be raped or not.

Where I'm coming at this is from the numerous Sexual Assault Prevention & Response training through the military, as well as my several cop buddies. In the absence of academic/scientific data...go with the opinion of professionals.

I'm coming at it from a "what makes a rapist rape" perspective, and the sexiness of the clothes just doesn't do it. It's more about vulnerability and weakness, and sexy clothes espouse, far more often than not, the opposite of weakness or vulnerability. A girl who dresses like a nerdy loner is a far easier, and thus far more appealing target, than one dressed like a slut.

Now, there are ways to dress weak, but that's never been the focus of the "don't dress that way" message. It's never been "dress like you're strong and can handle anything, thus deterring potential attackers who will think you can fight back." It's always been, "Dress for sex and you will get raped." There is NOTHING that indicates, even anecdotally, that rapists are out for the sexiest thing they can find.

I'm not taking into account the long term watchers, stalker rapists, or accquantances, as the timeline for them is so long that they've picked out their target well before the time of the attack and in such case the clothes being worn are pretty much irrelevant.

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Response to Rape, feminism, victim-blaming, sex Feb. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:47 AM Reply

At 2/21/13 10:39 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 2/21/13 07:31 PM, TheMason wrote: Um...the clothes a woman is wearing would be a situational factor.
But it's not. No rapist is going to be triggered by the sexiness of a target. Certain rapists are triggered by a certain article of clothing, but there's nothing that indicates that that article of clothing will nessecarily be a sexy or skimpy one (e.g. a knit sweater could be the trigger, and those aren't revealing or sexy by any means.)

In other words, the amount of reveal the clothes have do no have that much of an effect, if any at all, on whether the wearer is likely to be raped or not.

But it is.

There are two sides to the argument about dress and rape:
1) That dressing in an overtly sexual way can make you a target for rape.
2) That the way you dress makes you either a 'hard' or 'soft' target for rape. A hard target would be clothing that would be difficult to get off making the rape more of a challenge. A soft target would be the girl in a micro-mini with a thong on.

Now...I don't think issue 1 has been studied all that in-depth partly because of the difficulty acquiring the data. And it is further complicated by the problems of under-reporting of rape and the willingness of victims to participate. Plus, rules against human subjects in research studies, including interviews, could prohibit the sort of interviews that could shed light on number 1 because of the psychological harm done to the victim since it could lead to her blaming herself.

As for point #2...which is the main thrust of my argument at this point...

You're not addressing. Whether or not the clothes worn are sexual in nature is irrelevent. You're still caught-up with addressing point 1 when I'm talking about point 2 so you fail to deconstruct my argument.

So...yes clothing remains a situational factor. How many rapists are going to look at two drunk girls with everything else being equal

Girl A: Wearing tight fitting jeans with a belt. Heels that are buckled or tied on. She looks very sexy and attractive...not a wall flower by any definition.

Girl B: Wearing a dress. It could be a rather plain sundress. She's wearing flats, hair in a pony tail.

Girl A is dressed sexually, but her clothing would be difficult to get off of her. Takes time. Also, you are focusing your strength on removing clothing...not subduing her. Not doing the act.

Girl B is dressed conservatively, not overtly sexual at all...but all you have to do is push up the skirt. It is quick and you don't have to do two things at once: take off her clothes while subduing her. She is the easier mark.

In the end, my point was that clothing is a situational factor in that it can make you easy to rape or hard to rape.

Sexiness of the clothing has nothing to do with, and is at this point irrelevent.

Nor has anyone shown where dressing defensively is a bad idea.

I'm coming at it from a "what makes a rapist rape" perspective, and the sexiness of the clothes just doesn't do it. It's more about vulnerability and weakness, and sexy clothes espouse, far more often than not, the opposite of weakness or vulnerability. A girl who dresses like a nerdy loner is a far easier, and thus far more appealing target, than one dressed like a slut.

Depends on the sexy clothes. If we're talking about a tailored powered suit with expensive heels...yes that's powerful. If we're talking about a woman wearing tight fitting jeans and a top that shows off her curves...yes that's confidence.

But if we're talking about a girl wearing clothes that are only a notch or two above a stripper's costume that is not strength, confidence, or invulnerability. In a culture where that kind of clothing is commonly portrayed as being worn by a woman with 'Daddy Issues' (see Barny in How I Met Your Mother or Charlie in Two and a Half Men) and low self-esteem.

And that's the thing, if a clothing ensemble is considered 'sexy' I agree we're probably talking about a woman who projects strength and confidence. But when the clothing is considered 'slutty'...she is projecting weakness and vulnerability.

====

Also, by focusing on point 1 (the sexual nature of clothing), you are overlooking point two about dressing defensively. Which as I point out below makes one less of a target because of the challenge their clothing presents.


Now, there are ways to dress weak, but that's never been the focus of the "don't dress that way" message. It's never been "dress like you're strong and can handle anything, thus deterring potential attackers who will think you can fight back." It's always been, "Dress for sex and you will get raped." There is NOTHING that indicates, even anecdotally, that rapists are out for the sexiest thing they can find.

I think if you re-read what I'm writing...you'll see that I'm making this point. Yes, I think that there could be a link between overtly sexual clothing and a very small increase in a woman's likelihood of being targeted. But as you point out...there is no data on it. But the data is rather silent either way, I've tried looking for studies on it and come up with inconclusive studies.

But my position is two-pronged. Dress defensively so that a potential rapist looks at you as strong and a challenge, not easy. Since rape is about power, then most rapists probably are not looking for a victim that would present the most challenge, but whose weakness would compliment their personal fable of strength. They may also be looking for a target that will be easy to subdue so that their risk of getting caught is reduced. Afterall, if you don't have to struggle with zippers and buttons and then pull tight fitting jeans off two kicking legs...you can instead focus on holding her down.

I'm not making the case that you are focusing on. Nor am I attempting to shift blame to the victim. At most all I'm saying is you have the responsibility to yourself to dress in a way that is safe for the situation you're putting yourself in. It is not the bouncing star from Super Marios Bros. that makes you invincible...but it will have some effect.


I'm not taking into account the long term watchers, stalker rapists, or accquantances, as the timeline for them is so long that they've picked out their target well before the time of the attack and in such case the clothes being worn are pretty much irrelevant.

Agreed.


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