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Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop

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WadeFulp
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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 11:03 AM

At 1/22/13 10:51 AM, Convey wrote: Why not have a Like/Dislike kind of system where you can only vote once? o:

Just an idea.

That's probably the direction we would want to head in. It's just a matter of having the resources to get that done. We're trying. It's a shame people like Ses has to abuse the site and take advantage of our current system.

I am looking into this, and ultimately he may have to pay for his abuse by having his content removed.


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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 11:41 AM

At 1/22/13 11:03 AM, WadeFulp wrote: That's probably the direction we would want to head in. It's just a matter of having the resources to get that done. We're trying. It's a shame people like Ses has to abuse the site and take advantage of our current system.

I am looking into this, and ultimately he may have to pay for his abuse by having his content removed.

Really, it's excellent that you're seriously looking into getting it going in the right direction. I'll still be using the site because I don't see why one small group of bellends should make me change, but I look forward to seeing something implemented. And anyway, you'll always have problems with these kind of assburgers, no matter what systems are in place. I honestly think they have some kind of desperate need to feel like they're getting attention. They can't help it.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 01:09 PM

Wade, appreciate you taking notice. There may or may not be anything that can be done right now, but the reality is, it should be a quality control concern for Newgrounds that when people search the charts, they will instantly be met with boosted material. I realize that zero bombing is a part of the culture, but this seems like more than that.

More importantly....the years have created a healthy community of hip hop artists that use NG as a regular hub to connect and collaborate. The current level of bombing does quality music a huge disservice, as well as compromises deserving artists of more exposure through chart topping. The hip hop community on Newgrounds is the figurehead of the audio portal; it is actively organized in a way that is similar to the flash portal, but it won't be if amazing submissions jump from 1.15 to 1.17 in less than 700 views when I have 6 votes worth of voting power.

This is not the blame game--however, this cannot be compared to the flash portal voting because the audio portal has a much smaller community paying attention to it. There are 15 five star reviews for Kill Bill's "Moses" and the score is concreted into the 1.18 range. It doesn't seem right, and I'm glad that it's an issue that is becoming focal.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 01:37 PM

At 1/22/13 01:09 PM, MadFLeX wrote: There are 15 five star reviews for Kill Bill's "Moses" and the score is concreted into the 1.18 range.

Pic related, it's DJ Ses

Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 01:57 PM

At 1/22/13 11:03 AM, WadeFulp wrote: I am looking into this, and ultimately he may have to pay for his abuse by having his content removed.

Thanks Wade, whether or not anything happens I think it's cool that someone higher up is still caring about what is essentially internet vandalism.

And Broken Deck man, It's not about exposure in the sense of gaining any fanbase, it's about exposure to meeting likeminded listeners and artists. What I love about NG as a proud amateur is that it's a place where other people who are into the same sort of stuff as me log into to post interesting music, collab, and just chat shit generally lol. NG Hiphop's like that I guess, because less listeners dig it (unlike, say, DnB and Dubstep which are far more easy to get a lot of views in).

Also fricking lol @ Bill.
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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 03:49 PM

At 1/22/13 01:57 PM, AxTekk wrote:
And Broken Deck man, It's not about exposure in the sense of gaining any fanbase, it's about exposure to meeting likeminded listeners and artists.

You get that exposure by being an active member of the audio portal and audio forum. As I've stated NUMEROUS times, the charts is the last thing you should be worrying about.

I'll be honest with you. We've been SUSPICIOUS of DJSes for a long time, but without concrete evidence of vote manipulation, or OBVIOUS copyright violations, we can't just go ahead and remove music / ban a user. The last time that stuff was looked up, there wasn't enough evidence, and that's what we had to go on.

It's not that the audio mods are apathetic, it's just that we're not "vote police" and it's not in our power, nor is it our place to deal with vote tampering.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 03:58 PM

At 1/22/13 03:49 PM, BrokenDeck wrote:
At 1/22/13 01:57 PM, AxTekk wrote:
And Broken Deck man, It's not about exposure in the sense of gaining any fanbase, it's about exposure to meeting likeminded listeners and artists.
You get that exposure by being an active member of the audio portal and audio forum. As I've stated NUMEROUS times, the charts is the last thing you should be worrying about.

I'll be honest with you. We've been SUSPICIOUS of DJSes for a long time, but without concrete evidence of vote manipulation, or OBVIOUS copyright violations, we can't just go ahead and remove music / ban a user. The last time that stuff was looked up, there wasn't enough evidence, and that's what we had to go on.

It's not that the audio mods are apathetic, it's just that we're not "vote police" and it's not in our power, nor is it our place to deal with vote tampering.

1) Doctor Cerebro, NG has always been supportive of NG Hip Hop, especially Tom and Jose. They have provided cash prizes and printed CD's at their own expense for CLABTRAP tournaments as well as front page exposure. Just because some mods aren't as appreciative of hip hop, it's not accurate to say NG is not supportive of it.

2) Broken Deck, I don't know you, but I assume you are a mod doing his job, which is fine. But I don't understand why you would have a problem with hip hop artists striving for exposure on Newgrounds through charts...there's a lot to be had here. I had two battles during the 2011 tournament pull over 20,000 combined views because they were the weekly number one. It's not your job to prioritize why people come to Newgrounds. When you say you get exposure by being active instead of coming out with quality material...that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not trying to start a fight, but you're conceding you're suspicious about Ses but being confrontational about it at the same time.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 04:10 PM

Bill, Flex, Mark, Ax, Butsaay, FB and friends: You all know what's up and have given great insight. Thanks for sticking up for the musicians here- someone had to do it. Because of US, it seems like DJ Ses and RMP will be removed from Newgrounds (along with their content), and that's a great start. When you have a loud enough voice, it will be heard, and that's what's happening today. Thanks guys.

I also agree with the one-time voting system. Once implemented, I think it will help the site in many ways.

One more thing. The behavior of some of the mods in this thread has been juvenile and uncaring. Normally these guys are cool and down to earth with me, but they change into Mr. Hyde once NG's biggest villain is brought up.

All the "this AGAIN?", "quit bitching", and "this will work itself out" comments really left a bad taste in my mouth. That seems like pure laziness to me. A moderator should work FOR the users, not be rude and condescending to them. Sometimes it seems like they'd rather have Newgrounds as their own little exclusive club instead of listening to dedicated members and fixing problems that hurt the site and its users.

We are not stupid, so don't treat us as if we are. We have a very real problem here, and the moderators getting defensive instead of taking real action is a slap in the face to the NG faithful. There's no excuse for this. Say what you will mods, but I'm not responding anymore. You know you were in the wrong and you know how to remedy this.

And BrokenDeck- not sure how much proof you need to ban a user, but everyone here agrees that THIS is sufficient evidence. I don't care how trivial you think it is, the guy is quite obviously cheating your website and needs to be dealt with accordingly. I know you are probably angered by what I said in the previous paragraph, but you did come across as VERY unprofessional. I was taken aback by it, because I never knew you to act like that. I still respect you, but I do expect more from you as a caring moderator of this awesome website.

Thanks for your help though Wade, I'm excited to see what transpires out of this fiasco.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 04:21 PM

At 1/22/13 04:10 PM, Teqneek wrote: A moderator should work FOR the users, not be rude and condescending to them.

inb4 "remember, we're volunteers!"

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 05:37 PM

I'm going to do everything in my power to deal with this. I plan to take action sometime tomorrow. Just collecting some more information in the meantime.


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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 05:48 PM

At 1/22/13 04:21 PM, mjohnson00 wrote: At 1/22/13 04:10 PM, Teqneek wrote:
A moderator should work FOR the users, not be rude and condescending to them.

I don't think the audio mods are being rude and condescending in this thread.

It's more like skepticism.

Hopefully you can understand our skepticism, as DJSes's supposed vote manipulating has been brought up before in the past, and very little evidence was found back then.

---

At 1/22/13 04:10 PM, Teqneek wrote:
And BrokenDeck- not sure...

This sort of stuff is really much more suited to using the PM system. Speaking of which, check your inbox. :)

---

At 1/22/13 03:58 PM, MadFLeX wrote:
When you say you get exposure by being active instead of coming out with quality material...that doesn't make sense to me.

I'm pretty sure I said "QUANITITY" but I must have made a typo.

I had two battles during the 2011 tournament pull over 20,000 combined views because they were the weekly number one.

The weekly 5 chosen by the a-bot was more or less random, and not as much related to the actual individual genre charts. It is also possible that you were featured in one of the more viewed listings as well. Someone may have also linked directly to your song page from an outside source. I assure your place on the Hip Hop chart at the time had less impact than you think.

I'm not trying to start a fight, but you're conceding you're suspicious about Ses but being confrontational about it at the same time.

I'll just carry on THAT side of the conversation in the PM system. ;)

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 06:36 PM

At 1/22/13 05:48 PM, BrokenDeck wrote: The weekly 5 chosen by the a-bot was more or less random, and not as much related to the actual individual genre charts. It is also possible that you were featured in one of the more viewed listings as well. Someone may have also linked directly to your song page from an outside source. I assure your place on the Hip Hop chart at the time had less impact than you think.

I think seasoned users, like pretty much everyone in the thread, understate the importance of the chart in finding new artists. When I first checked out the hiphop scene here in '10, it was because one of Icon's tracks was at the top of the charts that I followed him, and because of that I heard his battle with Gas. At least speaking for myself, the charts essentially led me into the clabtrap scene which I am now so avidly a part of.

When I first came to NG, checking the drum and bass charts was how I discovered Hopeku, checking the house charts was how I discovered xKore and checking the dubstep charts how I later discovered Night Killa, all artists I still follow avidly. I think people understate the role having one or two awesome artists on the front page of the charts can play when you're looking for good artists. Very few people, proportionally speaking, are forum regulars.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 06:54 PM

At 1/22/13 06:36 PM, AxTekk wrote:
When I first came to NG, checking the drum and bass charts was how I discovered Hopeku, checking the house charts was how I discovered xKore and checking the dubstep charts how I later discovered Night Killa, all artists I still follow avidly. I think people understate the role having one or two awesome artists on the front page of the charts can play when you're looking for good artists. Very few people, proportionally speaking, are forum regulars.

Dude, you have raised very valid points. Majority of successful musicians aren't forum dwellers. However I think what BrokenDeck point is by communicate and socialize with more people in community, everybody can exchange their feedback, views or favorites like a fair game; maybe this would help to boost the exposure.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 07:14 PM

At 1/22/13 06:54 PM, Elitistinen wrote:
At 1/22/13 06:36 PM, AxTekk wrote:
When I first came to NG, checking the drum and bass charts was how I discovered Hopeku, checking the house charts was how I discovered xKore and checking the dubstep charts how I later discovered Night Killa, all artists I still follow avidly. I think people understate the role having one or two awesome artists on the front page of the charts can play when you're looking for good artists. Very few people, proportionally speaking, are forum regulars.
Dude, you have raised very valid points. Majority of successful musicians aren't forum dwellers. However I think what BrokenDeck point is by communicate and socialize with more people in community, everybody can exchange their feedback, views or favorites like a fair game; maybe this would help to boost the exposure.

How many times have we needed to mention that this is not about their exposure, but searching of new artists, many of whom aren't necessarily familiar with the inner workings of the site? Seriously, Elitistinen, have you not READ anything that Teqneek even mentioned? I followed this thread without even mentioning anything because of how level-headed Teqneek was.


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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 07:39 PM

At 1/22/13 07:14 PM, TroisNyxEtienne wrote:
How many times have we needed to mention that this is not about their exposure, but searching of new artists, many of whom aren't necessarily familiar with the inner workings of the site? Seriously, Elitistinen, have you not READ anything that Teqneek even mentioned? I followed this thread without even mentioning anything because of how level-headed Teqneek was.

And my response was to AxTekk. No, I skip almost everything, only read Wade's ones and some of Teqneek 's responses. I understand the protective attitudes of older users toward noobs like us. We are noobs but it doesn't mean we don't understand how the system works. Only those without senses don't understand what's wrong right here. Teqneek is a hot-headed guy but he do raise some really good points on the flaws of the system.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 08:56 PM

At 1/22/13 10:51 AM, Convey wrote: Why not have a Like/Dislike kind of system where you can only vote once? o:

or just likes
so if you actually dislike something you can just not like it and then people can't dislike-bomb to negatively affect others


p.s. i am gay

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 08:58 PM

At 1/22/13 07:39 PM, Elitistinen wrote: I understand the protective attitudes of older users toward noobs like us. We are noobs but it doesn't mean we don't understand how the system works. Only those without senses don't understand what's wrong right here.

I agree with this. You guys aren't giving new users enough credit. I'm pretty sure that not seeing their music at the top of the charts isn't going to deter them from becoming active members of the audio portal regardless.

It appears that a lot of you people may be making a HUGE assumption that new users are automatically scared away just by getting low scores.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 09:14 PM

At 1/22/13 08:58 PM, BrokenDeck wrote:
It appears that a lot of you people may be making a HUGE assumption that new users are automatically scared away just by getting low scores.

Well in the defense of those that assume that, a lot of new users ARE scared away by the low scores.

Not saying I agree, but I can see how it would be daunting to go into a new site to upload your music and immediately be crushed under the "big guys."

As mentioned earlier, the best way to deal with this would be the simple like/dislike system, something like the upvote/downvote thing on reddit that you can only do once.


At 3/27/11 10:22 PM, sugarsimon wrote:
the brilliant songs who create a production for music
Wat

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 10:07 PM

Or maybe how one guy suggested, an upvote button only. If someone doesn't like it, they simply don't press it ;)

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 10:17 PM

At 1/22/13 10:07 PM, BrokenDeck wrote: Or maybe how one guy suggested, an upvote button only. If someone doesn't like it, they simply don't press it ;)

That would work in some ways, but not work in others...

Then people would start whoring votes for people they like, and it'd be the same mess all over again.


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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 02:12 AM

At 1/22/13 10:17 PM, Chemich wrote: That would work in some ways, but not work in others...

Then people would start whoring votes for people they like, and it'd be the same mess all over again.

yeah but people can (and do!) already do that. it's not really the same to go to a bunch of people and say "like my shit!" as it is to try shitting on people by deflating their score artifically

plus it's more like how the real industry works. sites that abdicated a "dislike" function have definitely benefited from a more positive vibe imo


p.s. i am gay

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 02:13 AM

At 1/23/13 02:12 AM, midimachine wrote: plus it's more like how the real industry works.

take this with a grain of salt btw
i mean like how people get popular in the real world by whoring themselves out as opposed to sledging other artists


p.s. i am gay

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 02:58 AM

Whatever system the site goes with,

I think its always important to put a good deal of emphasis upon staff chosen tracks to highlight on some page, because its FAILSAFE quality ensured.

Maybe even have up to 25 tracks at a time there.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 03:00 AM

At first I was like, "I'm just gonna start posting to Hip-Hop olskool," which is, what I believe to be happening with most people posting hip-hop, despite of the subgenre of Modern/OlSkool. So a few songs I've seen in olskool been 0 bombed like crazy

Example:

  • HDC:MC OG vs. RezzyTip
    HDC:MC OG vs. RezzyTip by HDC

    MC OG vs. RezzyTip

    Score
    1.06 / 5.00
    Type
    Song
    Genre
    Hip Hop - Olskool
    Popularity
    402 Views

three pages of reviews, all 4 or 5 stars, but yet has a score of just over 1. I having pretty decent voting power, and me hitting 5 for a week straight didn't nudge it at all.

It's a safe bet that if you have a hip-hop song above 4.5, you can pretty much bank on it being 0-bombed, which is pathetic.
I think a simple solution (just an idea.. it may not be some simple on the technical side of it) would be to make it where in order to vote on a song, you'd have to leave a review.. Almost like the stars you get from reviews would sum up the rating of the song, as opposed to the 0-5 scale.

Then, you could see that every vote would be real, and no bots boosting/reducing scores, and it may help musicians get reviews on songs from people who otherwise just give you a 5 (or 0), then don't say a word about the song.

I understand that un-doing what has been done is impossible, but attempting to fix and implementing some sort of new contribution system would be a giant step forward in this Hip-Hop community. There is a lot of untapped talent amongst these pages, and it's sad that someone found a way to manipulate it.

As far as evidence, I've seen a lot of songs on this thread with waaay lower ratings than they deserve. Also, the amount of plays/downloads simply does not add up to the scarce reviews.

there's my 2 cents.


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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 09:06 PM

Why don't we get experience from voting on audio submissions (Like we do with flash) ?

It would be cool if we got extra xp/day if we left reviews, that would definitely give incentive for people to review more.


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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 10:31 PM

At 1/23/13 09:06 PM, MickeyMao wrote: Why don't we get experience from voting on audio submissions (Like we do with flash) ?

It would be cool if we got extra xp/day if we left reviews, that would definitely give incentive for people to review more.

I've been thinking the same thing.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 10:47 PM

At 1/23/13 10:31 PM, JakobePaulobe wrote:
At 1/23/13 09:06 PM, MickeyMao wrote: Why don't we get experience from voting on audio submissions (Like we do with flash) ?

It would be cool if we got extra xp/day if we left reviews, that would definitely give incentive for people to review more.
I've been thinking the same thing.

There's a thread for these types of suggestions that you might be interested in.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 10:51 PM

At 1/23/13 09:06 PM, MickeyMao wrote: Why don't we get experience from voting on audio submissions (Like we do with flash) ?

Because Flash = priority

It would be cool if we got extra xp/day if we left reviews, that would definitely give incentive for people to review more.

Er-hem, extra experience by reviewing?Then people could just write rubbish reviews to gain additional EXP. You can't expect every single person to write constructive reviews if they do it only for extra EXP. Of course, there are quite some good reviewers out there, but there are bound to be people who will abuse it; those who want to zero-bomb submissions with great power could just leave one-line reviews that aren't abusive and gain voting power like that.


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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 12:49 AM

At 1/22/13 08:51 AM, mjohnson00 wrote: Ax Tekk, I warn you, do NOT post TheEyeOfMusik's copyrighted tracks into that forum, as it will do nothing. He will simply be unbanned, and you will be harassed by his brigade of 0-bombers/proxie-bots even worse than you are now.

AFAIK, DJ Lejin was unbanned because he agreed to take his copyrighted material off. I could be wrong. Regardless feel free to post any violations you find in his music the Audio Portal Cleanup thread (IMHO you probably won't find much, since he's appeared to have become more or less inactive, so the DJ Lejin issue could be a moot point by now).

Also, in 2011, there was a different system in place.

Rest assured, as in the example above, songs containing copyrighted material will now be dealt with accordingly.

Thank-you for your concerns.

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Response to Dj Ses Is Ruining Ng Hip Hop Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 02:24 AM

At 1/23/13 10:51 PM, Chrausner wrote:
a bunch of stuff

well of course people would abuse it. derrrr...

People that give dumb reviews will get the artist response they deserve.

Does the rating system on reviews even affect anything? There's gotta be an algorithm/formula/math function thang to relate useless reviewers to their voting power. If the people are constantly downvoting shitty reviews then you might be able to see who is abusing the hypothetical review exp.

Based on the title, shouldn't this be posted in HipHop Olskool? If you ask me, that's a good enough reason to perma ban Sesticle. :3

What the fuck, RealMuzikProductions isn't even scouted for the Audio Portal... do I have to scout the account to drop a 2 rating on it?

  • R.M.P. - I'm Old Skool
    R.M.P. - I'm Old Skool by RealMuzikProductions

    A banger track by DJ SES aka TheEyeOfMusik. +RESPECT US+

    Score
    4.44 / 5.00
    Type
    Song
    Genre
    Hip Hop - Modern
    Popularity
    2,567 Views


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