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The Nra's Anti-obama Ad

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jimmypage9209
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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 12:19 AM Reply

At 1/18/13 08:44 AM, Fim wrote: Difference between the children of the most powerful man in the world, who are in danger of assassination, hostage taking, etc. and ordinary citizens surely? Way to be over simplistic NRA and not address the real issues. I'd hate to live in a world where schools are guarded by mercenaries, sounds more like a 1984 state than the idea of not having any guns at all.

What you said are my thoughts exactly! There is no taking away of firearms either... Now I don't agree with the assault ban and clip ban but it should be a helluva lot harder to get these guns, show you've earned your right to bear arms. Thomas Jefferson himself said the constitution need revaluation every 19 years or you would become a slave to the prior generation. Just look at what "cold war thinking" did to our country people practically brainwashed over the edge paranoid. Just needs to be some moderation...

hateyou1
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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 01:53 PM Reply

At 1/18/13 10:10 AM, CaveStoryGrounds wrote:
At 1/18/13 10:00 AM, Fim wrote: Are American audience's that dumb that they buy into this crap?
Ever heard of MSNBC, NBC, ABC, NPR, CNN, Huffington Post, Move On, Media Matters, and Current TV? Yeah...they are.

Fix'd

CaveStoryGrounds
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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 02:14 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 01:53 PM, hateyou1 wrote:
At 1/18/13 10:10 AM, CaveStoryGrounds wrote:
At 1/18/13 10:00 AM, Fim wrote: Are American audience's that dumb that they buy into this crap?
Ever heard of Fox News? Yeah...they are.
Fix'd

What did you do? Looks the same to me.

hateyou1
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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 04:23 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 02:14 PM, CaveStoryGrounds wrote:
At 1/23/13 01:53 PM, hateyou1 wrote:
At 1/18/13 10:10 AM, CaveStoryGrounds wrote:
At 1/18/13 10:00 AM, Fim wrote: Are American audience's that dumb that they buy into this crap?
Ever heard of Fox News? Yeah...they are.
Fix'd
What did you do? Looks the same to me.

Did you go to the doctors recently? You may be suffering with a mental disorder known as "liberalism". I heard doctors now diagnose for that mental disability.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 05:28 PM Reply

What you said are my thoughts exactly! There is no taking away of firearms either... Now I don't agree with the assault ban and clip ban but it should be a helluva lot harder to get these guns, show you've earned your right to bear arms.

You seem confused. The right to bear arms is a right, not a privilege you earn.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 06:05 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 05:28 PM, Ceratisa wrote: You seem confused. The right to bear arms is a right, not a privilege you earn.

In before "Government gives you rights"

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 07:45 PM Reply

I honestly can't believe this happened in California:
http://news.yahoo.com/fontana-calif-schools-high-powered-rif les-184934771.html


That's right I like guns and ponies. Problem cocksuckers?
Politically correct is anything that leftists believe.Politically incorrect is anything common sense. IMPEACH OBAMA.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 07:50 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 07:45 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: I honestly can't believe this happened in California:
http://news.yahoo.com/fontana-calif-schools-high-powered-rif les-184934771.html

I like how it says they LOOK like they belong on a battlefield without clarifying that that's as far as it goes towards being a battlefield weapon.


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LemonCrush
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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 08:01 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 07:45 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: I honestly can't believe this happened in California:
http://news.yahoo.com/fontana-calif-schools-high-powered-rif les-184934771.html

California law makers love dead kids. Hence all the gun control

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 09:24 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 07:45 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: I honestly can't believe this happened in California:
http://news.yahoo.com/fontana-calif-schools-high-powered-rif les-184934771.html

California actually used to be a Republican stronghold. Nixon was from there and Reagan was governor there, it also voted Republican for President in every election from 1952 ending in 1992 (with the exception of 1964, where everyone but Racist whites and Arizona voted Democrat). They've mostly turned Liberal because of all the immigrants that came in when their economy boomed due to the Silicon Valley and because the moderates left the Republicans when all this Evangelical crap overtook the GOP. This hasn't happened in Southern California which remains a bastion of Conservatism, and the Eastern half is also pretty Conservative but less populated. So it's in South California so it's not too surprising. It would be really surprising if it were San Fransisco or Oakland though.


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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 09:18 AM Reply

At 1/23/13 07:50 PM, RacistBassist wrote: I like how it says they LOOK like they belong on a battlefield without clarifying that that's as far as it goes towards being a battlefield weapon.

They were purchased for cops and cops have access to the selective fire/military version. So they may actually be assalt rifles. :)


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TheMason
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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 09:46 AM Reply

At 1/23/13 09:24 PM, Warforger wrote: California actually used to be a Republican stronghold. Nixon was from there and Reagan was governor there, it also voted Republican for President in every election from 1952 ending in 1992 (with the exception of 1964, where everyone but Racist whites and Arizona voted Democrat). They've mostly turned Liberal because of all the immigrants that came in when their economy boomed due to the Silicon Valley and because the moderates left the Republicans when all this Evangelical crap overtook the GOP. This hasn't happened in Southern California which remains a bastion of Conservatism, and the Eastern half is also pretty Conservative but less populated. So it's in South California so it's not too surprising. It would be really surprising if it were San Fransisco or Oakland though.

I read somewhere recently that Nixon referred to guns as an 'abomination' and if he could've he would've ban/confiscated all of them. Reagan also lent his support to the Brady Bill and 1994 AWB under Clinton. That's the thing with gun control...I think it is much more of a bipartisan issue (or maybe geographic issue) than down party lines. After all, most urban dwellers think it is a good idea since there is none to little gun culture there. On the other hand those of us toothless hillbillies in the sticks superstitiously and irrationally cling to them.

As for the Evangelical wing taking over...I'm not sure that is completely true. I live in Missouri where we have a very strong Baptist/Evangelical community concentrated in our Southern part. And yet when I go to the annual Republican state convention...their hospitality rooms are the least full and most avoided. Yes they are a vocal and sizable part of the party...but I think their control is vastly overstated.


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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 11:54 AM Reply

At 1/23/13 07:45 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: I honestly can't believe this happened in California:
http://news.yahoo.com/fontana-calif-schools-high-powered-rif les-184934771.html

Truly scary stuff. I can't believe they'll spend money on this before school counselors.


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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 03:58 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 11:54 AM, Fim wrote:
At 1/23/13 07:45 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: I honestly can't believe this happened in California:
http://news.yahoo.com/fontana-calif-schools-high-powered-rif les-184934771.html
Truly scary stuff. I can't believe they'll spend money on this before school counselors.

Oh look, you can't read? Did you see the cost comparison? IT isn't even close, that is like not being able to afford a new company fleet of cars vs getting some high quality office paper.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 04:04 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 03:58 PM, Ceratisa wrote: Oh look, you can't read? Did you see the cost comparison? IT isn't even close, that is like not being able to afford a new company fleet of cars vs getting some high quality office paper.

$14,000 is more than enough to get a school counselor to come on part time. Seems to me that a school counselor is a heap load more useful to students than a pile of fancy and shiny cobweb launching points.

So, you were saying?

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 04:09 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 04:04 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 1/24/13 03:58 PM, Ceratisa wrote: Oh look, you can't read? Did you see the cost comparison? IT isn't even close, that is like not being able to afford a new company fleet of cars vs getting some high quality office paper.
$14,000 is more than enough to get a school counselor to come on part time. Seems to me that a school counselor is a heap load more useful to students than a pile of fancy and shiny cobweb launching points.

So, you were saying?

One guy who makes on average 50k a year split between 44 schools? just part time? Yeah cool brah.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 04:14 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 07:45 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: I honestly can't believe this happened in California:
http://news.yahoo.com/fontana-calif-schools-high-powered-rif les-184934771.html

its about damned time they figured it out! this school will probably never get shot up.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 04:24 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 04:14 PM, Korriken wrote: this school will probably never get shot up.

Which is why spending so much on guns is a waste.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 04:34 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 04:24 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 1/24/13 04:14 PM, Korriken wrote: this school will probably never get shot up.
Which is why spending so much on guns is a waste.

So you choose to ignore the fact that you want one guy who normally makes 55kish to work part time covering 44 schools? for 14k?

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 07:35 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 04:34 PM, Ceratisa wrote: So you choose to ignore the fact that you want one guy who normally makes 55kish to work part time covering 44 schools? for 14k?

1 day a week going to the schools he/she is needed at. Still 1,000,000,000,000,000 times more useful than that amount spent on assault rifles.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 08:30 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 07:35 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 1/24/13 04:34 PM, Ceratisa wrote: So you choose to ignore the fact that you want one guy who normally makes 55kish to work part time covering 44 schools? for 14k?
1 day a week going to the schools he/she is needed at. Still 1,000,000,000,000,000 times more useful than that amount spent on assault rifles.

No that's bullshit just admit it.Just one person, to cover 44 schools and 40,000 students. And considering the amount of traveling they'd need to do. And parents, what about the parents demanding time. No one person is not enough to cover 40,000 students.

The travel alone would rack up cost unless you want their part time 14k job to pay for travel expenses as well. Or how bout their office? You are talking about 180 divided by 44 so each school will never have their counselor for even 5 days. Assuming he worked every day (which isn't full time)

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 09:39 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 04:24 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 1/24/13 04:14 PM, Korriken wrote: this school will probably never get shot up.
Which is why spending so much on guns is a waste.

Is it a waste? I mean, schools, according to the media, are constantly in danger from crazy rednecks with "assault rifles". So, shouldn't we have someone at schools to stop him?

You can't support gun control in response to a school shooting, and at the same time, say schools won't get shot up

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 12:30 AM Reply

At 1/24/13 08:30 PM, Ceratisa wrote: The travel alone would rack up cost unless you want their part time 14k job to pay for travel expenses as well.

You're not getting it. Even a vastly underpaid, overstratched worker has more use than an assault rifle at a school. Not because the overstrecthed is worth so much, but because the assault rifles are wholly unneeded and completely useless there.

At 1/24/13 09:39 PM, LemonCrush wrote: Is it a waste? I mean, schools, according to the media, are constantly in danger from crazy rednecks with "assault rifles". So, shouldn't we have someone at schools to stop him?

No, because the schools are not in danger of shootings. The kind of violenece that does occur at schools is of a kind where use of guns to stop it is innappropriate, but is very much preventable through the open ear of a counselor.

You can't support gun control in response to a school shooting, and at the same time, say schools won't get shot up

I don't support gun control because of school shootings. I support gun control because of gun violenece in general. School shootings make up a miniscule amount of the total gun violence in this country. Considering how many person hours are spent at school daily and yearly, I'd say schools are extremely safe.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 12:16 PM Reply

There are many sources of funding for things like these. As the story said, one school police district used funds it generated from collecting fees for services they provided. As for this district they did not mention where the money came from. It could've come from a grant (either private or government) which stipulated what the money could be spent on. So it may have been an either get the guns and get the money...or get nothing. So it could be moot on where the resources are allocated.

Now if these were district funds that they had discretion on...I see both sides. On one hand they are prepping for a statistically improbable event. Therefore, they may never be used other than target practice. Thus the money could be spent better elsewhere.

On the other hand, $14,000 is a small amount of money when talking about a school's budget...especially one this large. Plus it is a one-time expense so its not going to be a recurring expense like even a part-time employee would be.

In the end, the school board (or the police chief) made a call knowing all the particulars and threat assessments. So if they are comfortable with it...then I don't think it was either a monumentally stupid or brilliant idea.

At 1/25/13 12:30 AM, Camarohusky wrote: No, because the schools are not in danger of shootings. The kind of violenece that does occur at schools is of a kind where use of guns to stop it is innappropriate, but is very much preventable through the open ear of a counselor.

I totally agree with you that school shootings are very rare. Also, the average day-to-day violence can and should be solved with words and not bullets.

On the other hand, in class and on my teacher's union's website...I'm getting the sense that allowing teachers to carry is not something that is all that of a small of a % anymore. I'm hearing people who do not like guns being at least open to the thought now.


I don't support gun control because of school shootings. I support gun control because of gun violenece in general.

And yet...gun control does not effect gun violence. I think some degree of gun control is appropriate...but I don't think there is much more that can be gained from new gun control laws beyond tinkering with our background checks.


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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 12:42 PM Reply

At 1/25/13 12:16 PM, TheMason wrote:
At 1/25/13 12:30 AM, Camarohusky wrote:
I totally agree with you that school shootings are very rare. Also, the average day-to-day violence can and should be solved with words and not bullets.

There are specific schools where a higher level of security is needed, but Fontana California, a relatively quiet suburb, is NOT one of them. The remainder of schools disstricts, may run into an event where high caution is needed once a year. These aren't bad enough to warrant guns on campus. The number of schools districts that will have such a bad event in the existence of the district at all is statistically none.

On the other hand, in class and on my teacher's union's website...I'm getting the sense that allowing teachers to carry is not something that is all that of a small of a % anymore. I'm hearing people who do not like guns being at least open to the thought now.

This is still a bad idea. Teachers are there to teach, not to patrol the hallways like a sheriff out of Tombstone. Many students are already intimidted by their teachers. Giving teachers guns is hardly a way to endear the students to them.

And yet...gun control does not effect gun violence. I think some degree of gun control is appropriate...but I don't think there is much more that can be gained from new gun control laws beyond tinkering with our background checks.

There are two types of gun control that I think would work. Gun monitoring (strong background checks as well as a single national database) and making the possession of a gun without resgistering equal to failure to reister as a sex offender. The second is complete gun control. The removal of all legal guns DOES make committing a gun crime exponentially harder, and will deter many if not most, of the spur of the moment gun crimes (which make up the near entirety of US gun crimes).

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 01:13 PM Reply

At 1/25/13 12:30 AM, Camarohusky wrote: I don't support gun control because of school shootings. I support gun control because of gun violenece in general. School shootings make up a miniscule amount of the total gun violence in this country. Considering how many person hours are spent at school daily and yearly, I'd say schools are extremely safe.

You are aware that violence has existence since the beginning of the human race right? That it didn't pop up when the gun was invented?

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 02:29 PM Reply

At 1/25/13 12:42 PM, Camarohusky wrote: There are specific schools where a higher level of security is needed, but Fontana California, a relatively quiet suburb, is NOT one of them. The remainder of schools disstricts, may run into an event where high caution is needed once a year. These aren't bad enough to warrant guns on campus. The number of schools districts that will have such a bad event in the existence of the district at all is statistically none.

Hey...I agree with you totally. That not all schools need the same level of security. These guns in particular, are probably not that big of a necessity. But at the same time...it is not that much of an extravagence either.


This is still a bad idea. Teachers are there to teach, not to patrol the hallways like a sheriff out of Tombstone. Many students are already intimidted by their teachers. Giving teachers guns is hardly a way to endear the students to them.

I think you're overstating this. If teachers were to be allowed to carry...they should be required to keep it concealed. If we allow guns to be carried in school...only the armed teachers, the principal, superintendent and the school board president should know who is carrying.

If someone (no matter what their position) reveals who is carrying...they are automatically terminated keeping only the minimum pay and benefits allowed under the law.


There are two types of gun control that I think would work. Gun monitoring (strong background checks as well as a single national database) and making the possession of a gun without resgistering equal to failure to reister as a sex offender. The second is complete gun control. The removal of all legal guns DOES make committing a gun crime exponentially harder, and will deter many if not most, of the spur of the moment gun crimes (which make up the near entirety of US gun crimes).

Stronger background checks: I agree there is room for this. However, I do not completely trust Obama on this since he is trying to limit consumer options (ie: trying to bring Walmart in with the promise that gun buyers will buy from them instead of independent FFL dealers at gun shows). But I do appreciate Obama making an exemption gor guns left to family members after a person dies.

Registration/database: These have very low utility and have been consistently shown not to work. All they do is cost money...not solve problems. Look at Canada. With a population 1/10 of ours...it cost them $2 billion and was recently given up as a failure.

So do you want to throw $20 billion at something that is consistently proven to be a failure...or spend it on programs that will encourage economic growth? How many school counselors could we hire with that $20 billion?

SOURCE
I looked at 2009. I looked at the categories that indicated for spur of the moment murders that did not involve an illegal (ie: narcotics) or other activity that is borderline criminal (ie: gang membership. Just being a Blood, Crypt, or Latin King is not illegal). And I came up with the following number: 3,808. I included the following categories:

* Romantic triangle
* Child killed by babysitter
* Brawl due to influence of alcohol
* Argument over money or property
* Other arguments

Now looking at the data, there is a cluster of mudrers centered around age, peaking in the 20-24 year old age range. Now one of the things we know about adolescent psychology is adolescence lasts, in Western society, until the mid-20s. Perhaps we need to re-evaluate our 21 to buy a handgun law. In 2009, hanguns were used in 89% (controlling for the two unknown/unreported categories listed in table 310) of murders. We could do this while maintaining second amendment rights because:

* 18-24 year olds would retain the right to self-defense via shotguns.
* We would not be banning them nor their possession.
* As you've pointed out, an item's purpose is important in determining if it is a reasonable restriction. Handguns have a very limited role for the military...and in fact they are the only firearms with the original purpose being to kill people. Plus they are exceedingly useful to criminals and criminal behavior.

If people are serious about gun violence...looking at assault rifles is like having a nuerologist x-raying your ass to check for a brain tumor.

And while yes...taking away guns will lead to a reduction in firearm homicides...there are still other ways for the criminally minded to kill and hurt. But how many more people will be put at risk because now they lack the means to defend themselves from violent people?


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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 06:13 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 09:46 AM, TheMason wrote: I read somewhere recently that Nixon referred to guns as an 'abomination' and if he could've he would've ban/confiscated all of them. Reagan also lent his support to the Brady Bill and 1994 AWB under Clinton. That's the thing with gun control...I think it is much more of a bipartisan issue (or maybe geographic issue) than down party lines. After all, most urban dwellers think it is a good idea since there is none to little gun culture there. On the other hand those of us toothless hillbillies in the sticks superstitiously and irrationally cling to them.

Yah, that's sort of it though for their time Nixon was a bit in between center right and far right and Reagan was far right, but nowadays Nixon is left wing and Reagan is Center- right. It's why Nancy Reagan is alot more supportive of Stem Cell research (especially since it could be used to find a cure for Alzheimers, which Ronald suffered from) than the Republican party was. Hell in terms of Social Issues Reagan and Goldwater were pretty Socially Liberal, Reagan at best was against Abortion but he was very supportive for Gay rights and stood up for them when in California they were almost barred from teaching in schools same with Goldwater. So alot of things which weren't really politicized like gun control back then are now alot more polarized.

As for the Evangelical wing taking over...I'm not sure that is completely true. I live in Missouri where we have a very strong Baptist/Evangelical community concentrated in our Southern part. And yet when I go to the annual Republican state convention...their hospitality rooms are the least full and most avoided. Yes they are a vocal and sizable part of the party...but I think their control is vastly overstated.

Part of the reason Romney lost this last election was because the RNC forced the platform to contain a clause saying that they're against abortion in any case even if the mother was raped or if her life was threatened. Obama was able to sway enough women voters over to his side, by the end the only major demographic Romney won was white males. Any Republican which goes against the TEA party ideology for example gets targeted in the primaries, they tried this for example against a Republican senator from Maine but ended up no doing anything since endorsement by the Tea party in Maine is tantamount to losing the election before the polls have even opened. Anyone who is attracted by the calls for better fiscal policies or administration are turned away by the party's aggressive foreign policy stance (mind I also say inefficient? They seem to think throwing more and more money at the military makes it stronger, but all I see in return is projects about how Klingons were saved by Jesus or a zombie attack simulation) and their stances on social issues. This was an election that the Republicans should have won, instead they lost holding onto the House because of Gerrymandering.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 06:57 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 09:46 AM, TheMason wrote: As for the Evangelical wing taking over...I'm not sure that is completely true.

True, but false at the same time.

Yes, it is true that the Republican party does not like being associated with the evangelicals, as they know that association with them is a surefire key to losing an election. However, they can't win without them. This means they have to cater their policies toward the evangelicals in order to get that chunk of the vote, while trying to mke it look to the rest of the voters that they're not.

In short, the evangelical vote has the RNC's nuts in a vice.

Ceratisa
Ceratisa
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Response to The Nra's Anti-obama Ad Jan. 25th, 2013 @ 07:29 PM Reply

I'm sorry I can't take someone seriously who wants someone to work for 1 day in a single school for the entire school year as a guidance councilor.

One guy who is needed to be available to students running around 44 schools for one, two days max. And you want this one part time guy (Who would want to get a masters to get 14k?) to help the 40,000 students in those 44 schools.