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At 1/13/13 03:22 PM, Feoric wrote:

The debt ceiling doesn't create the debt, it allows debt.

I know, but that's the point of raising it, obviously...

it is to pay for the operational costs of running the government.

Back to the real world example, the $1T injects no money at all into the economy directly. It is essentially collateral for a temporary loan from the Fed to cover monetary needs during the crisis, sort of like a checking account. Once the crisis is over, the loan is repaid and the collateral returned. It's completely neutral, fiscally.

So if I borrow 500$ from you because I don't have money to pay something today, and give it back to you later, that's neutral?

I still have to find an actual 500$.

At 1/13/13 04:32 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

It's the equivalent of a husband giving money to his wife in a community property state. The wife now has money on her books, but in the end, the husband and the wife are the same monetary unit. It's nothing other than a cute shifting of numbers until thecouple wants to go out and spend that money.

But why are you saying "until hey spend the money" when the express purpose of this IS TO SPEND THE MONEY?

Still don't get it.

ALl you guys are saying is "We won't inject it in the economy, we'll just use it to pay for stuff now and then pay it back later".
What? How are you not injecting it in the economy if you're using it to pay salaries and give out social security benefits?

If you raise the debt ceiling later so the new 1T fits into it, then you've still created an extra 1T in debt "from the coin", except you did it in a different way.

At 1/13/13 05:04 PM, poxpower wrote: So if I borrow 500$ from you because I don't have money to pay something today, and give it back to you later, that's neutral?

I still have to find an actual 500$.

No, because you're missing a transaction there. Remember, the Treasury gives the Fed the 1 trillion dollar coin, and the Fed gives the Treasury one trillion dollars credited to their account. It would be like you giving me a 500 dollar casino chip, me giving you 500 dollars cash, you spending 500 dollars and me cashing the chip.

At 1/13/13 05:34 PM, Feoric wrote:

No, because you're missing a transaction there. Remember, the Treasury gives the Fed the 1 trillion dollar coin, and the Fed gives the Treasury one trillion dollars credited to their account. It would be like you giving me a 500 dollar casino chip, me giving you 500 dollars cash, you spending 500 dollars and me cashing the chip.

Where did I get the chip? The casino? The way you describe it sounds like I just counterfeited a chip, gave it to you for 500 and then you cashed my chip for another 500.
And if I'm spending the 500 bucks, how am I not injecting it into the economy?

At 1/13/13 05:04 PM, poxpower wrote: ALl you guys are saying is "We won't inject it in the economy, we'll just use it to pay for stuff now and then pay it back later".
What? How are you not injecting it in the economy if you're using it to pay salaries and give out social security benefits?

When debt is issued the money used to buy the debt is removed from the economy. Money is then added to the economy as the Federal government spends money.

It's highly likely only a certain portion of the full account would be used. Assume for a moment that the government spending is 3.6 trillion a year (300 billion a month) and government revenue is 2.4 trillion a year (200 billion a month). There is a 100 billion shortfall. Normally the government would just create and sell the 100 billion in bonds, but the debt limit prevents that from happening. So, the government creates the 1 trillion dollar coin, deposits the coin in the Fed, and the Fed transfers the 100 billion a month to the government to cover the shortfall. Let's also assume that a deal is reached after only 100 billion is used. The Treasury can now sell 100 billion worth of t-bill to make up for that 100 billion spent and convert it back into regular debt.

At 1/13/13 05:54 PM, Feoric wrote: stuff

Why can't you just say the coin is used to create more debt, not more money?
That's simple haha.

Ok I think I get it now.

At 1/11/13 06:27 PM, Camarohusky wrote: "Accounting" and "trick" are two very dangerous words to exist together.

It's a nice thing to stop a complete crash, but that doesn't mean it should be done.

Fiat money is an accounting trick.

DO IT. (they've already said they won't tho, so this thread is really obsolete)

Not a smart idea; nobody in their right mind is seriously proposing it. There's no difference between a trillion dollar coin and printing so much money that we get inflation like Weimar Germany did.

At 1/13/13 05:34 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 1/13/13 05:04 PM, poxpower wrote: So if I borrow 500$ from you because I don't have money to pay something today, and give it back to you later, that's neutral?

I still have to find an actual 500$.

No, because you're missing a transaction there. Remember, the Treasury gives the Fed the 1 trillion dollar coin, and the Fed gives the Treasury one trillion dollars credited to their account. It would be like you giving me a 500 dollar casino chip, me giving you 500 dollars cash, you spending 500 dollars and me cashing the chip.

;;;
You've left out the REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT PART.

THE Fed charges Interest on the money !
So technuically you can never pay back what you owe (do you know why ??? or do you have to guess ??? )

They amount can never be paid back because even if you paid the entire amount back ...you still owe the interest !
So you need to borrow more & more in a perpetual cycle of debt , guaranteed by the wonderful government masters by your labors in perpetuity !
Which is why you are really a slave .

You see most money isn't created as the above example states ... most is created out of Nothing ~:o , that's right its made up on a balance sheet at the stroke of a pen.

I believe I've posted this before ... its informative, if you would like to learn.
If you are in denial, please flame away at me.

http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/dollar-deception.php

At 1/14/13 06:52 PM, morefngdbs wrote: THE Fed charges Interest on the money !

Just a really simple question: do you know what the current interest rates are?

At 1/16/13 03:49 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 1/14/13 06:52 PM, morefngdbs wrote: THE Fed charges Interest on the money !

Just a really simple question: do you know what the current interest rates are?

No one does to my knowledge however it's not the point because it should not even exist in any form or denomination in the first place.

At 1/16/13 04:04 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: No one does to my knowledge however it's not the point because it should not even exist in any form or denomination in the first place.

Effectively zero or negative.

At 1/16/13 04:10 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 1/16/13 04:04 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: No one does to my knowledge however it's not the point because it should not even exist in any form or denomination in the first place.

Effectively zero or negative.

LOL you sure like to believe in propaganda.

Besides, there isn't any interest on the trillion dollars. It would actually be used to pay for interest payments in the first place.

At 1/16/13 04:11 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: LOL you sure like to believe in propaganda.

Is that your response to everything you don't agree with/?

At 1/16/13 06:48 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 1/16/13 04:11 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: LOL you sure like to believe in propaganda.

Is that your response to everything you don't agree with/?

To think that the Fed would not be biased toward their own cause is just pure ignorant.

At 1/18/13 11:00 PM, RightWingGamer wrote: Which means it's being used to pay for something.

Which means it's being spent.

...on things which are already expected to be paid for.

Which means it's going into circulation.

Right, but not the coin itself.

Even if the physical coin is just an accounting trick, the money that it represents is still being spent.

Not necessarily, I already described how it would likely play out a few posts above.

:: You can't just create a trillion dollars out of thin air and expect for there to be no consequences.

As long as investors from around the world are buying our bonds, why not?

Maybe we can take an American dollar and have it transferred into Zimbabwean money. They have like trillion dollar bills but they're only worth like ten dollars. Yes, that is true.

This is going to be likely the biggest ecconomic problem to have ever hit the U.S. because it would likely be someone in congress would say no, make it, and keep it to themselves.

Natural 1% is natural.

At 1/19/13 01:35 AM, Ceratisa wrote: Why is this still being discussed the two VITAL parties that need to make this happen have already said no.

Well they passed a bill back during Nixon's Presidency which gave the President to mint certain coins intended for say commemorative coins. Now they realize he can make a Trillion Dollar Coin with that. So they gave up more power a while back.