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Welfare Recipients Lap Dances

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TheKlown
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Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 02:14 PM Reply

Lap Dances, Alcohol, and Porn with our Money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evbnwqCudqE


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 02:16 PM Reply

Welfare is suppose to be for those who need food and clothes, and that is the only places it should work at!


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 03:17 PM Reply

This didn't happen at a Republican National Party outing, did it?

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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 03:29 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 03:17 PM, Camarohusky wrote: This didn't happen at a Republican National Party outing, did it?

Did I say that? Thanks for putting words in my mouth/in my typing.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 03:48 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 03:29 PM, TheKlown wrote: Did I say that? Thanks for putting words in my mouth/in my typing.

He didn't put words in your mouth, he asked a simple question.

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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 04:38 PM Reply

Policing how welfare recipients use their money would probably cost a lot more than we lose by having them "waste" it. Note that they're still spending it and putting it back into the economy anyway, so it's not so bad.

You'd be amazed at how much money we could save with handouts as opposed to trying to solve problems with imprisonment and emergency rooms.

For instance, a prisoner costs like 25+ k a year to keep. Yet no one wants to give some kid 25k a year so he goes to college for free. So if you keep the kid poor and he turns to crime, you are losing 25k every year, on top of the money he's not generating through a job ( which is taxed ). So this short-term greed is actually costing 20 times more over a lifetime.

Safe for homeless / sick people and emergency room visits. Each visit costs the taxpayers thousands of dollars they'll never get back for costly emergency procedures. Then we just release the person back into the wild, where they have no healthcare, food or support and they come right back because their life is shit and they get injured and ill.

This costs billions every year, easily one or two orders of magnitude more than instituting social programs to help these people for free with food and shelter.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 05:06 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 04:38 PM, poxpower wrote: For instance, a prisoner costs like 25+ k a year to keep. Yet no one wants to give some kid 25k a year so he goes to college for free. So if you keep the kid poor and he turns to crime, you are losing 25k every year, on top of the money he's not generating through a job ( which is taxed ). So this short-term greed is actually costing 20 times more over a lifetime.

Plenty of people want to give capable kids money to go to college. There are endless scholarships to apply to and even more opportunities for financial aid. But not everyone can or should go to college.
"Turning to crime" is not the inevitable result of being poor, neither is it the only real option. People turn to crime because they want something quick without having to work for it. College isn't out of reach for most people, if not through financial aid then through joining the army (which can be a career in itself). Hell, even if you do go to college, you don't exactly rake in the cash as soon as you graduate. It takes time to accumulate enough money or advance in a career until you can be really comfortable, even more so if you have student loans or lack a college education.
So no, I don't think that handing out 25k a year to people who don't have the willingness to work for it is going to magically reduce the crime rate or save money.

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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 07:30 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 05:06 PM, adrshepard wrote:
Plenty of people want to give capable kids money to go to college. There are endless scholarships to apply to and even more opportunities for financial aid. But not everyone can or should go to college.

That was just a random example of how you can invest in people to pull them out of crime. The whole college question is obviously pretty complicated.

Just saying the whole notion of hating "handouts" as a knee-jerk reaction is kind of short-sighted, even if some people definitely just waste the money you invest into them.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 07:42 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 03:29 PM, TheKlown wrote:
At 1/8/13 03:17 PM, Camarohusky wrote: This didn't happen at a Republican National Party outing, did it?
Did I say that? Thanks for putting words in my mouth/in my typing.

He was being humorous.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 09:20 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 04:38 PM, poxpower wrote: Policing how welfare recipients use their money would probably cost a lot more than we lose by having them "waste" it. Note that they're still spending it and putting it back into the economy anyway, so it's not so bad.

What if the government quit spending money on the War on Drugs, and instead use that money to police how welfare is spent?

Just an idea.

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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 10:38 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 09:20 PM, TNT wrote: What if the government quit spending money on the War on Drugs, and instead use that money to police how welfare is spent?

I'd rather the savings from that go to education, healthcare, and social security.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 01:23 AM Reply

At 1/8/13 04:38 PM, poxpower wrote: Policing how welfare recipients use their money would probably cost a lot more than we lose by having them "waste" it. Note that they're still spending it and putting it back into the economy anyway, so it's not so bad.

No it wouldn't. The solution is rather simple; take the machines out of the problem areas. The EBT machine that was actually physically IN the strip club, for example? Take it out, and use the electronic records as a means to determine who was very clearly abusing their welfare benefits and cut them off. And do the same with every other machine in the area.

Here's a neat little idea, if you don't like the idea of actively pursuing people who abuse the system; relocate the machines to be outside of walking distance of problem areas like liquor stores and strip clubs. Treat the machines like you would liquor stores in certain small towns where they have to be outside of walking distance of Churches and Schools. In essence, frustrate the recipient's ability to get the funds.

Alternatively; restrict the amount of money a recipient is able to withdraw at any one given time. A couple of keystrokes and it's now part of the programming, you just have to figure out a "reasonable" limit. Need $10 or $15 for gas? Okay, but that's all you can withdraw for the next 4 hours. Something like that.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 11:16 AM Reply

At 1/8/13 02:14 PM, TheKlown wrote: Lap Dances, Alcohol, and Porn with our Money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evbnwqCudqE

Stop fucking extrapolating a few free riders into the need for a complete overhaul.


no, really...DON'T CLICK THE PIC

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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 12:10 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 09:20 PM, TNT wrote:
What if the government quit spending money on the War on Drugs, and instead use that money to police how welfare is spent?

That doesn't make it more cost-effective.

At 1/9/13 01:23 AM, Proteas wrote:
In essence, frustrate the recipient's ability to get the funds.

But that's stupid since you have to change the location of the machines every time a new "bad" business opens, not to mention you now need a list of "bad businesses" and enforcers. If I live in a shit neighborhood with a strip club, I have to go out of my way to get benefits now?

You really think all this is going to save you money?

Alternatively; restrict the amount of money a recipient is able to withdraw at any one given time.

Great so they have to make 10 trips to the machine every day now?
The money is theirs. It's not "special welfare money". Once you give it to them, you can't track where they'll spend it unless we put a whole new infrastructure in place, which will cost a ton of money and probably not solve anything as just cutting people off doesn't make them magically get jobs.

You can give them food stamps and things of that nature, but there's nothing preventing them from selling those to someone else for cash anyway.

Ok so you cut them off. Congrats. Now what? Jail? Instead of giving them 1$ a month in welfare, now you're keeping them in jail for twice that cost and they don't even recirculate the money into the economy?


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 12:48 PM Reply

At 1/9/13 12:10 PM, poxpower wrote: But that's stupid since you have to change the location of the machines every time a new "bad" business opens, not to mention you now need a list of "bad businesses" and enforcers.

Does the term "zoning law" mean anything to you? Schools and Churches stay put, the liquor stores have to work inside predesignated areas a certain distance away from them in order to find a building to open their business in. Similarly, have the machines stay put in a particular spot (say, in front a of a grocery store, where those benefits are MEANT to be used), and any new liquor store or strip club has to operate outside of a certain distance from the machine.

If I live in a shit neighborhood with a strip club, I have to go out of my way to get benefits now?

Sounds like you would have to go out of your way for anything, actually.

You really think all this is going to save you money?

Compared to your idea of just letting a shitty situation continue on unchecked, when that money could be used to help people who actually need it? Yeah, I think I am. If you have enough money to live on such that you can use your welfare benefits as discretionary income, you clearly do not need those benefits.

Great so they have to make 10 trips to the machine every day now?

Do you have any idea what an EBT card is, or what it's actually used for?

The money is theirs.

No, it's not. It's paid for with money from my taxes. Money they did nothing to earn except by falling under a certain income level. That's what welfare is.

You can give them food stamps

That's what an EBT card is; a card with food-stamp money on it. That's what's being discussed here; money meant to be spent on food being squandered on lap-dances and booze. Grocery stores accept EBT cards just the same way they do debit and credit cards, the only difference being that an EBT card will flag certain items that are not on the approved food list for people receiving food-stamp benefits. By allowing them to have unfettered access to the money to be used however you they wish, you're creating a system that begs to be abused in the ways this topic is discussing.

Ok so you cut them off. Congrats. Now what? Jail?

Why would they turn to crime? They clearly have enough income such that they can use they're benefits for discretionary purposes, turning to crime to make ends meet is a non-sequiter. These people aren't hurting financially.

Instead of giving them 1$ a month in welfare

... a dollar a month in welfare...

now you're keeping them in jail for twice that cost

... two dollars a month to keep them in jail...?

Is it the economy on pox-world stuck in the mid 1800's?

and they don't even recirculate the money into the economy?

Yeah, because strip clubs are an integral part of the economy.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 04:37 PM Reply

At 1/9/13 12:48 PM, Proteas wrote:
Does the term "zoning law" mean anything to you?

Like I said, this isn't free.
You're going to create a lot of new problems if you do this, potentially costing society way more money than just letting a couple losers go to the strip club.

Compared to your idea of just letting a shitty situation continue on unchecked

There could be solutions, but they're not free or obvious.
Dealing with poor / incompetent people is a big problem when you don't want to let them die.

Do you have any idea what an EBT card is, or what it's actually used for?

Yeah. You want to restrict how much they can spend from it per hour?

The money is theirs.
No, it's not. It's paid for with money from my taxes. Money they did nothing to earn except by falling under a certain income level. That's what welfare is.

There are already restrictions in place for what they can and can't buy. But you're still giving them money. They can always trade the value of whatever it is you give them for whatever else they want like drugs, cigarettes etc.

Why would they turn to crime? They clearly have enough income such that they can use they're benefits for discretionary purposes, turning to crime to make ends meet is a non-sequiter. These people aren't hurting financially.

Nice logic, except THEY STILL TURN TO CRIME.
Poverty is highly correlated with higher crime. None of your "theories" change this fact. You may wish for them to think they have enough money, but they don't act like they do.

Is it the economy on pox-world stuck in the mid 1800's?

You are able to grasp the idea that it would cost twice as much to jail them, right?

and they don't even recirculate the money into the economy?
Yeah, because strip clubs are an integral part of the economy.

Poor people spend money on other things than lap dances too lol.

Anyway, no one's arguing that poor jobless people should smoke, do drugs, drink, gamble and go to clubs etc. In fact, based on that logic, they shouldn't go to restaurants, go-karts, arcades or barber shops either.

We could waste our time making a giant list of what we think they can and can't do with our money, but the real question is: What costs us more? Giving them 1000$ a month to spend how they want, or giving them 900$ and spending 100$ on monitoring how they spend it?

The needy will still need X amount to live, the money you waste on monitoring / regulating for a minority of offenders might just end up lowering the benefits anyway.

What's worse, having them waste 1% of it on stupid shit they don't need, or having us waste 5% trying to make sure they don't spend it on stupid shit?

There is help in place but the sad truth is that some people don't want help and will most likely always remain on welfare and just perpetuate their own stupidity, laziness and poverty.
What to do with them is a hard question.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 06:13 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 02:14 PM, TheKlown wrote: Lap Dances, Alcohol, and Porn with our Money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evbnwqCudqE

C'mon Guy's ! ! !
Lighten up .
Whatever they don't spend on Booze, Smokes & Porn ...they'll only waste .

Although if you took away those things, it would leave them more money for crack &/or methamphetamines


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 07:00 PM Reply

Yep. Junkyard America shows itself again. Probably getting that welfare illegally too.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 07:30 PM Reply

Solution: Only allow government licensed vendors to accept things like EBT or welfare. Make it all electronic. Easier to track.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 10:08 PM Reply

At 1/9/13 07:30 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Solution: Only allow government licensed vendors to accept things like EBT or welfare. Make it all electronic. Easier to track.

But then you cut into the profits of the vendors with the licensing fees.

And then they fire people.

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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 10:22 PM Reply

At 1/9/13 10:08 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: But then you cut into the profits of the vendors with the licensing fees.

And then they fire people.

To sell alcohol you need a license. To sell food you need a license. To sell at all you need a license. To sell anything you need a license.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 10:50 PM Reply

At 1/9/13 10:22 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
At 1/9/13 10:08 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: But then you cut into the profits of the vendors with the licensing fees.

And then they fire people.
To sell alcohol you need a license. To sell food you need a license. To sell at all you need a license. To sell anything you need a license.

I thought you were talking about a new license in addition to the existing ones. My mistake.

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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 10th, 2013 @ 12:55 AM Reply

At 1/9/13 04:37 PM, poxpower wrote: You're going to create a lot of new problems if you do this, potentially costing society way more money than just letting a couple losers go to the strip club.

A couple of losers? When a strip club as an EBT machine physically inside the club, you're not talking about having "a couple of losers" from the neighborhood at that point, you're talking about the majority of the club's clientele. If you don't you don't understand how much of an abuse of the system this is, you're beyond help, pox.

There could be solutions, but they're not free or obvious.

Here's a solution that's eliminates cost, is glaringly obvious, and very old-school; eliminate the machines altogether. An EBT card is supposed to be used to buy groceries and ensure you have food to eat. You don't need to be getting cash off the card to go and spend as discretionary income for any reason.

By eliminating the machines, you don't have to have people policing how the money is spent. You don't have to spend the extra time reprogramming the machines for complicated code that determines how much petty cash that can be withdrawn in x amount of hours. And you don't have to spend the time tracking down the people who use the machines to abuse the system, since those abusers will be left without recourse after the fact.

Problem solved.

Dealing with poor / incompetent people is a big problem when you don't want to let them die.

I didn't say I wanted them to starve to death, I just want them to use the money for it's intended use.

There are already restrictions in place for what they can and can't buy. But you're still giving them money. They can always trade the value of whatever it is you give them for whatever else they want like drugs, cigarettes etc.

It's a card with your name on it, or a piece of paper with your name on it. How exactly are you going to give somebody your ability to buy cheap serial and peanut butter to buy drugs, cigarettes, etc, when those rights are still in YOUR NAME?

Nice logic, except THEY STILL TURN TO CRIME.

Why would they turn to crime? They clearly aren't having financial problems bad enough that they use all they're welfare money in the way they're supposed too, they don't need that money.

You are able to grasp the idea that it would cost twice as much to jail them, right?

Non issue.

Giving them 1000$ a month to spend how they want

The average family of four on food stamps doesn't even get $1000 a month, pox. Keep in mind, that's $496 a month (on average) divided between 4 people. If you divide that evenly, you're talking about eating on $4.33 a day per person.

What's worse, having them waste 1% of it on stupid shit they don't need

I imagine a fair bit more than 1% of those benefits were being spent on strippers, pox.

or having us waste 5% trying to make sure they don't spend it on stupid shit?

You're just pulling numbers out of your ass at this point, aren't you? You're not even trying.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 10th, 2013 @ 02:26 AM Reply

At 1/10/13 12:55 AM, Proteas wrote:
you're talking about the majority of the club's clientele.

Which still probably make up a small proportion of total welfare recipients.
According to states, the percentage of welfare money taken via fraud is around 1-2%.

I cannot find stats on how much they "waste". I can't even find how much they have wasted on these strip clubs / bars etc. All I find is the same article repeated over and over which says "dozens of transactions".

Wow, DOZENS? That's nothing, especially since the article mentions a number of 200 million transfers. So it's dozens out of 200 million?

They have so little to go on that they cite INDIVIDUAL transactions in the article. Oh wow, some bum blew 100 bucks on a lap dance ( maybe) at a club?

That same bum's going to cost us like 100k if he winds up in the ER because he's sick. Who cares about 100$?

You don't need to be getting cash off the card to go and spend as discretionary income for any reason.

Erm.. you ARE aware that to live, you need other things that food right? Things like soap, tools, clothes etc.?
Sometimes you need actual physical money like for the bus or taxi or emergencies.

At some point, somehow, you'll have to hand them money. Money which you cannot stop them from spending on stupid things.
The EBT card is just an attempt at policing what they can purchase.

I cannot say if it had a positive impact as I do not know enough about the program, but certainly a couple thousand bucks spent at strip clubs is nothing compared to the hundreds of millions handed out each year.

It's a card with your name on it, or a piece of paper with your name on it. How exactly are you going to give somebody your ability to buy cheap serial and peanut butter to buy drugs, cigarettes, etc, when those rights are still in YOUR NAME?

Like this: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/02/16/investigation-unco vers-people-selling-taxpayer-funded-food-stamps/

You'd probably have to spend billions upon billions to make sure there's no possible way for people to waste welfare money, which again is useless since the wasted / fraud portion is probably quite small, even if it's tens of millions of dollars. The benefits program is 75 billion dollars in size.

Why would they turn to crime?

They're stupid. For instance, they tend to spend all their money as soon as they get it and then they don't have any more. That means they're easy targets for loan sharks and other such people who can make them advances on their EBT cards or other programs.

I imagine a fair bit more than 1% of those benefits were being spent on strippers, pox.

Ok, that's great, now prove it.
I cannot find any numbers on this. I would assume it's not even 0.01%. Every article only cites "dozens" of these transfers. Let's say it's a dozen dozen ( 144) and it costs 200$ each time, that's like 30k. Even if it's a dozen dozen dozen dozens, it's 4.1 million dollars, which is 0.00054% lol. That's assuming about 20 000 strip club transactions totaling about 200$ each.

I just don't see any indication of any numbers near this.

You're just pulling numbers out of your ass at this point, aren't you? You're not even trying.

Those were just to illustrate the concept. Here's a conrete example:
http://news.yahoo.com/drug-testing-welfare-recipients-might-
not-money-well-193100548.html

In Florida, they decided to drug test every applicant to welfare, to make sure they weren't on drugs. They estimate a savings of 240$ for every 1100$ they spent on tests, that is to say they LOST 860$ for each 1100$ they spent, thus wasting 3.5 times more taxpayer money trying to prevent drug use than by just accepting it exists.


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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 10th, 2013 @ 11:12 PM Reply

At 1/10/13 02:26 AM, poxpower wrote: That same bum's going to cost us like 100k if he winds up in the ER because he's sick. Who cares about 100$?

If this was a politician spending $100 of taxpayer money on a lap-dance, this topic would be up to 5 pages by now with the majority of the responses demanding the asshole be fired and brought up on charges, and people ranting about wasteful government spending, with the story being a top trending article on CNN. But change that politician out for somebody living on welfare, and people turn a blind eye and go "meh." That's a bullshit double standard. It's wasted taxpayer money and you know it.

Erm.. you ARE aware that to live, you need other things that food right? Things like soap, tools, clothes etc.?

That's not what the program is for.

Ok, that's great, now prove it.

Fine, let's start off with the numbers I provided previously. Let's say it's just one random bum getting $152 a month in food stamps, which he was cashing out to blow on things besides food. Let's say he's a pack of cigarettes every other day at $5.50 a pack (price of cigarettes here in Tennessee). If he goes through 15 packs in a month (a carton and a half), that's $82.50 (54%) he's spent of benefits that month on cigarettes ALONE. He hasn't even bought groceries yet. If he was, he'd have to subsist on $2.31 worth of food a day for a 30 day month, and that's assuming that cigarettes are the only vice this guy has. If he likes to drink or go to the strip club, he can very easily burn through the other $69.50 worth of benefits in short order.

If somebody can waste that much money on things other than food, they clearly do not need to be receiving benefits.

Those were just to illustrate the concept. Here's a conrete example:
http://news.yahoo.com/drug-testing-welfare-recipients-might-
not-money-well-193100548.html

In Florida, they decided to drug test every applicant to welfare, to make sure they weren't on drugs. They estimate a savings of 240$ for every 1100$ they spent on tests, that is to say they LOST 860$ for each 1100$ they spent, thus wasting 3.5 times more taxpayer money trying to prevent drug use than by just accepting it exists.

And what about my proposal of simply eliminating the machines and making the cards only useful in grocery stores (the way the cards are MEANT to be used)? You all but eliminate the issue of people pulling petty cash out of the system to waste them on things they don't need, and you save money by no longer having to maintain the machines. It won't prevent people from selling or trading their benefits for cash, but if that same guy we're talking about sells his $152 worth of food stamp benefits for half or three-quarters their value, he's got even less money on hand to spend, now.

By setting up the system to run the way it was intended to run, you would eliminate a lot of needless waste with little effort.


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Poniiboi
Poniiboi
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Response to Welfare Recipients Lap Dances Jan. 21st, 2013 @ 05:46 PM Reply

OH AND LET'S NOT FORGET ALL THOSE BANKER BONUSES YOU MORONS PAID FOR WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS...corporate welfare Ivy League GOP slime


no, really...DON'T CLICK THE PIC

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