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Organ Donation Should be Mandatory

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poxpower
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Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:55 AM Reply

I don't understand why you have to sign anything to give hospitals the right to use your organs when you die. You're dead, they're not yours anymore. You don't exist. If you don't exist, you don't own things.

People are dying every day because of this nonsense and we're spending money on useless paperwork and wasting valuable time.


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Earfetish
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 12:23 PM Reply

If we grant the state rights over our bodies, then the next thing you know, they'll be harvesting tissue off living people and amassing a database and removing your still-beating heart because it's a perfect fit for Joe Biden.

Y'know, government control, slippery slope, etc.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 12:35 PM Reply

On a slightly more convincing note, there are people like the Rastafarians who reckon you need to be whole to get into heaven and reckon that donating an organ could leave you wandering the netherworld for the rest of eternity.

You've got to give these people freedom of conscience - just because it seems to you and I that they are wrong, does not mean that they are. They might be right and they're pretty convinced they are right.

Personally though, I'd be wary of even switching to an 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in' organ donation system. Is human life valuable? Too many fucking people on the planet anyway and they've got to die somehow - I'm not sure whether the value of 'more fucking people consuming resources' is worth the loss of people's rights over their own bodies.

poxpower
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 01:48 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 12:35 PM, Earfetish wrote: You've got to give these people freedom of conscience

No.
Sorry little girl, we could replace your lungs today but this lady was a crazy person when she was alive so now we can't save you or else her family will be sad, unlike your family who will dance on your grave! Too bad we, the government, respect made-up nonsense just as much as deadly medical conditions!

It's preposterous.

Shortages of organs give rise to black markets anyway so that whole "omg then people will be murdered for their organs" argument is bullshit since that's what they already do BECAUSE there's a shortage of organs. If I'm rich and dying, I'm going to pay a weird Mexican any amount of money for an organ, no questions asked.

This is ridiculous really.


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Camarohusky
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 03:21 PM Reply

I am opposed to it being mandatory.

I would no doubt love the supply of usable organs to be bursting at the seams, but forcing one to give over part of their body, even posthumously, is just not acceptable. I don't see any slippery slope here, I just believe we should have the right to determine what happens to our bodies after death.

poxpower
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 03:29 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 03:21 PM, Camarohusky wrote: but forcing one to give over part of their body, even posthumously, is just not acceptable.

Why?
That's not an argument.


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Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 03:38 PM Reply

Nope shouldn't happen, you also forget religious reasons to take into consideration. plus why should I?

poxpower
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 04:43 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 03:38 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Nope shouldn't happen, you also forget religious reasons to take into consideration. plus why should I?

What do you mean "why should I"?
You're dead. There's no more "I". You don't get choices when you're dead.

You can't vote, have a job or adopt a puppy, why should we let you keep life-saving organs so you just rot with them?


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adrshepard
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 05:32 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 11:55 AM, poxpower wrote: I don't understand why you have to sign anything to give hospitals the right to use your organs when you die. You're dead, they're not yours anymore. You don't exist. If you don't exist, you don't own things.

People are dying every day because of this nonsense and we're spending money on useless paperwork and wasting valuable time.

It's all about the protection and respect of individual liberties, even if it comes at the expense (or at least the missed opportunity to benefit) of everyone else. You could draw the parallel with why the government can't compel priests to reveal the details of confession or force spouses to testify against each other even if doing so could prevent future crimes.
I, too, don't particularly care what happens to my body when I die, but some people do, and there are enough of them to get upset if we suddenly decided to make it mandatory.

I have thought about the idea of making organ donation mandatory for people who live on public assistance or depend on Medicaid, though. But seeing as we treat public assistance as a gift rather than a debt that should be repaid, I don't think there's any chance of such an idea ever being adopted.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 07:00 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 03:29 PM, poxpower wrote: Why?
That's not an argument.

It's something I am not comfortable with. I am not alone here either. I know there are many potential recipients who would refuse an organ that was forcefully taken (myself included).

Recipients want an organ, no doubt, but most recipients don't want to take their organ from someone else, they want to recieve it (hence the term recipient). A taken organ would feel like an ill-gotten organ. (other option was 'blood organ' like the term 'blood money', but that would have had a worse and even more lame innuendo).

At 1/8/13 05:32 PM, adrshepard wrote: You could draw the parallel with why the government can't compel priests to reveal the details of confession or force spouses to testify against each other even if doing so could prevent future crimes.

I would be wary of drawing this correlation. These privileges have the specific purpose of encouraging full and forthright communication between the privileged parties. By ensuring that no communication will ever be legally required to be disclosed the speakers will feel more free to be fully honest.

No such impetus exists here.

I, too, don't particularly care what happens to my body when I die, but some people do, and there are enough of them to get upset if we suddenly decided to make it mandatory.

The problem here isn't that so many people are refusing to donate organs, it's that so many people just aren't aware ro going through the steps (more like step in singular) needed to donate an organ posthumously. The populace needs a swift kick in the pants, not a madatory decree.

poxpower
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 07:10 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 05:32 PM, adrshepard wrote:
It's all about the protection and respect of individual liberties, even if it comes at the expense (or at least the missed opportunity to benefit) of everyone else. You could draw the parallel with why the government can't compel priests to reveal the details of confession or force spouses to testify against each other even if doing so could prevent future crimes.

Hum the very purpose of a goverment is to take away some of your liberties to insure a better society. That's the entire point. Why we do or don't take away a particular liberty is entirely a case by case basis of cost vs benefits.

In the case of organ donations, the cost is virtually nothing and the benefit is ENORMOUS.

At 1/8/13 07:00 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
It's something I am not comfortable with. I am not alone here either. I know there are many potential recipients who would refuse an organ that was forcefully taken (myself included).

If you were dying, I'd be willing to bet a million dollars you'd take any organ.
Also, who cares what you are comfortable with? It takes away nothing from you except it makes you uncomfortable? That's the exact same issue as gay marriage. It takes away nothing from the people not getting gay married except it makes them uncomfortable.
Tough shit?

A taken organ would feel like an ill-gotten organ.

It's not stolen since you are dead and therefore cannot own anything.


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adrshepard
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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 07:49 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 07:00 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 1/8/13 05:32 PM, adrshepard wrote: You could draw the parallel with why the government can't compel priests to reveal the details of confession or force spouses to testify against each other even if doing so could prevent future crimes.
I would be wary of drawing this correlation. These privileges have the specific purpose of encouraging full and forthright communication between the privileged parties. By ensuring that no communication will ever be legally required to be disclosed the speakers will feel more free to be fully honest.

It's pretty much the same concept of protecting something that has no value (at least according to poxpower) at the expense of something that does. There's no objective reason why talking to my wife or priest should be more or less important to me than what happens to my body after I die.

The problem here isn't that so many people are refusing to donate organs, it's that so many people just aren't aware ro going through the steps (more like step in singular) needed to donate an organ posthumously.

I doubt it. People understand the concept of organ donation and anyone who's ever looked at a driver's license knows how to become one. Numbers I've just looked at now say less than 40% of driver's license or state ID holders are organ donors. That sounds like active refusal to me.

At 1/8/13 07:10 PM, poxpower wrote: Hum the very purpose of a goverment is to take away some of your liberties to insure a better society. That's the entire point. Why we do or don't take away a particular liberty is entirely a case by case basis of cost vs benefits.
In the case of organ donations, the cost is virtually nothing and the benefit is ENORMOUS.

No, YOU think the cost is nothing because you're assessing value from a very narrow perspective. Value means something different to everyone, and if a large group of people believe that being buried whole with all their organs has value, you can't simply dismiss that.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 08:13 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 12:35 PM, Earfetish wrote: there are people like the Rastafarians who reckon you need to be whole to get into heaven

That's why Bob Marley died. He had malignant melanoma on his toe and he could have lived if his toe were removed. He refused because of this belief.


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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 08:19 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 12:23 PM, Earfetish wrote: If we grant the state rights over our bodies, then the next thing you know, they'll be harvesting tissue off living people and amassing a database and removing your still-beating heart because it's a perfect fit for Joe Biden.

Y'know, government control, slippery slope, etc.

The Nazi's did this very thing....minus the Biden part lol

But they had a registry of Jew body parts....entire skeletons for transplant purposes...

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 08:25 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 07:49 PM, adrshepard wrote:
No, YOU think the cost is nothing because you're assessing value from a very narrow perspective. Value means something different to everyone, and if a large group of people believe that being buried whole with all their organs has value, you can't simply dismiss that.

"Reality" isn't a "narrow perspective".
This discussion isn't about whether or not people are offended or mad about this, it's whether or not we should do it and what effects it would have.

Use the same argument you just did for gay marriage and you'll realize how silly it actually is.


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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 08:32 PM Reply

the idea of organ donation being mandatory is ridiculous, it would be a violation of individual freedom when it can be voluntary? why give a alcoholic a new liver when he burned his original? why allow people to live when the world is already crowded and overpopulated just leeching off precious resources.

if anything the current system works fine.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 09:10 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 08:32 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: the idea of organ donation being mandatory is ridiculous, it would be a violation of individual freedom when it can be voluntary? why give a alcoholic a new liver when he burned his original? why allow people to live when the world is already crowded and overpopulated just leeching off precious resources.

if anything the current system works fine.

I was about to raise a question on those people that abuse their bodies. For instance, if organ donation was mandatory, would it make smokers more likely to continue smoking and damage their lungs because it will get replaced anyway? On one side, it's very beneficial. On the other side, people could seriously abuse it (by keep smoking, drinking too much alcohol, etc.). This is something that should be considered if organ donations were mandatory.


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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 09:17 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 09:10 PM, TNT wrote: I was about to raise a question on those people that abuse their bodies. For instance, if organ donation was mandatory, would it make smokers more likely to continue smoking and damage their lungs because it will get replaced anyway? On one side, it's very beneficial. On the other side, people could seriously abuse it (by keep smoking, drinking too much alcohol, etc.). This is something that should be considered if organ donations were mandatory.

well if it were mandatory I don't think it would matter due to the fact of excess organs floating around, even though mandatory organ harvesting would be beneficial to the living its still a gross violation of rights especially if said person wants their body buried whole due to personal beliefs/religion or just doesn't want to.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 09:48 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 09:17 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
well if it were mandatory I don't think it would matter due to the fact of excess organs floating around, even though mandatory organ harvesting would be beneficial to the living its still a gross violation of rights especially if said person wants their body buried whole due to personal beliefs/religion or just doesn't want to.

You can't speed in a school zone. Why aren't you complaining that this is a violation of individual rights?

Do you want me to name more laws? Lol.


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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 09:55 PM Reply

I agree with Pox on this one. Where are all of our pro-life advocates backing him up on this one? Don't you want to save as many lives as you can? Or is the government going to harvest our organs, build super zombies and commit a mass terrorist attack on us decent citizens?

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 10:05 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 09:48 PM, poxpower wrote: You can't speed in a school zone. Why aren't you complaining that this is a violation of individual rights?

Probably because speeding in a school zone endangers and infringes on people's [specifically children] safety

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 10:31 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 09:48 PM, poxpower wrote: You can't speed in a school zone. Why aren't you complaining that this is a violation of individual rights?

that endgangers lives and common sense, this infringes on what the government say what we can and can't do with our bodies upon death. ( I mean sure you can't taxidermy a person but still) and taking something parts away after death without the consent of the family or it conflicts with the burial process in the deceased will. just taking something is wrong.

the ends don't justify the mean and just because it saves more people doesn't mean its right.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:05 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 10:31 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
this infringes on what the government say what we can and can't do with our bodies upon death.

AND?
???
?????????????

So far people's arguments are "People don't like this :,(".
Yeah well people don't like taxes either.

So what?

??


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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:11 PM Reply

Ideally we should all have donor cards, but it has to be our decision, the industrial revolution and the wealth it brings is the sole reason we don't have tyranny, slavery and serfdom anymore. We could very easily go back to a state of things where people are routinely murdered to harvest their organs.

Maybe it should be an opt-out thing, where if someone doesn't want to donate their organs they can opt-out of donating them, but otherwise if they don't say anything it is fair game. Just as long as there is some system in place so that society can check where all the organs are coming from and if the donor didn't have a huge problem with it while they were still alive. This also has secondary benefits as it allows organs to be better regulated so people don't end up with livers from drug alcoholics and so forth.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:13 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 11:05 PM, poxpower wrote: So far people's arguments are "People don't like this :,(".
Yeah well people don't like taxes either.

So if a majority of the people don't like it, what exactly gives the government the right to decide for them?

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:14 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 11:05 PM, poxpower wrote: So far people's arguments are "People don't like this :,(".
Yeah well people don't like taxes either.

it should either be voluntary or a opt-out option or at least compensation for the harvested organs for the deceased family. but just taking is not the way to go.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:26 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 11:11 PM, science-is-fun wrote: We could very easily go back to a state of things where people are routinely murdered to harvest their organs.

When was that ever the case??
How can increasing the organ supply lead to behavior that is tied to a shortage of organs??

At 1/8/13 11:13 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 1/8/13 11:05 PM, poxpower wrote: So far people's arguments are "People don't like this :,(".
Yeah well people don't like taxes either.
So if a majority of the people don't like it, what exactly gives the government the right to decide for them?

The law.

At 1/8/13 11:14 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
it should either be voluntary or a opt-out option or at least compensation for the harvested organs for the deceased family. but just taking is not the way to go.

The family can have dibs or you could choose who to potentially give your organs to, but that's about it.


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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:34 PM Reply

At 1/8/13 04:43 PM, poxpower wrote: You can't vote, have a job or adopt a puppy, why should we let you keep life-saving organs so you just rot with them?

What's stopping an unethical EMT or Doctor from letting you die so they can harvest your organs? You've been deprived of life through medical malpractice so that others can live. Is this something you would allow yourself to be subjected to?

I mean, either way, you're dead. What do you care?

At 1/8/13 09:55 PM, Saen wrote: I agree with Pox on this one. Where are all of our pro-life advocates backing him up on this one?

You really think you're going to find someone pro-life on here? My, how deluded you are.


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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 8th, 2013 @ 11:36 PM Reply

well then thank goodness pox isn't a politician or a lawmaker.

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Response to Organ Donation Should be Mandatory Jan. 9th, 2013 @ 12:35 AM Reply

At 1/8/13 07:10 PM, poxpower wrote: If you were dying, I'd be willing to bet a million dollars you'd take any organ.

Not necessarily. I do have the luxury of living a half quality life while waiting for an organ, but I would still be very reluctant to take a forced organ.

Also, who cares what you are comfortable with?

OK, it's decreed, Poxxy's body will be used for necropheliac games after death. You're dead, fuck you.

It takes away nothing from you except it makes you uncomfortable? That's the exact same issue as gay marriage. It takes away nothing from the people not getting gay married except it makes them uncomfortable.

No it's not. Gay marriage is one person's discomfort effecting those who have nothing to do with them. When someone uses my body in any way after my death, it very much has to do with me. How people's bodies are treated when they are dead isn't just a posthumous issue. People care when they're alive about how their remains will be treated. To many, myself included, a posthumous taking from the body is just as much of an invasion as a pre-mortem taking from the body.

It's not stolen since you are dead and therefore cannot own anything.

Then, even if a person has no rights after death, you are stealing from the estate.

At 1/8/13 07:49 PM, adrshepard wrote: I doubt it. People understand the concept of organ donation and anyone who's ever looked at a driver's license knows how to become one. Numbers I've just looked at now say less than 40% of driver's license or state ID holders are organ donors. That sounds like active refusal to me.

A few things here. Not that many people know what the heart on the back of the driver's license means anyway. And I wouldn't put it past many Americans to not know a day after it being explained to them, so unless they get the whole shabang upfront at the DMV, they probably wouldn't know how to enter the program from their asshole.

Another thing is people put it off, not out of refusal but out of apathy. As of now it's merely a line to fill in or a box to check at the DMV. The reaction I have when I see another box or line, even when it may be vital, is "pfft, if it matters, I'll do it later." There needs to be a campaign that sets out, just like the register to vote hippies at colleges, that asks folks to register for the organ donor system.

Finally, many people don't have a clue how the donor system works or what it really does. There are many who think their body gets chopped up and resembles nothing more than stew cut beef. That couldn't be further from the truth. The people removing the organs do their best to return the body to as pristine a condition as possible for whatever sort of burial/rites the family wishes to pursue.

The organ campaign I mentioned could confront the problems of ignorance, apathy, and misinformation head on and give people a true picture of what it is and why they should join. I definitely know there would be some outrigt refusal, as should be their right, but I have a very hard time believing 60% of Americans full on refused the donor program outright. 60% of Americans can hardly form a strong opinion outside of facebook or TMZ, let alone one regarding organ donation.