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TheMason
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 22nd, 2013 @ 01:24 PM Reply

At 1/21/13 05:25 AM, Feoric wrote: That depends on how you define "mass shooting" (wikipedia tells me 4 during the 60s) but there were absolutely shootings in schools in the 60s, for example. The most famous one was the University of Texas massacre, which left 14 people dead. It's interesting to note how many of these perpetrators committed suicide, and how many of then surrendered or were subdued. It tells me that not everybody who does this kind of stuff goes into doing it with the same mind set.

I would like to point out a few things:

1) The UT-Austin shooting involved civilians coming with their own firearms and aiding an overwhelmed police force in stopping the shooter.

2) Over the past 20 years these kind of mass shooters have quadrupled. This includes the 10 year period that an AWB was in effect. Some of the things they correlate to are: lyme disease, lead concentrations in paint and the atmosphere from leaded gasoline (before you point out that leaded gasoline went bye-bye circa late 1980s...know that lead levels are not effeciently processed by the body and therefore can remain in one's system for decades), and the school reforms of Clinton, Bush, and now Obama. :)


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Feoric
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 01:28 AM Reply

At 1/21/13 11:54 AM, LemonCrush wrote: Bullcrap. If there were KKK members in front of polling paces trying to intimidate voters, they would be in prison right now.

For them to be in jail, evidence of intimidation would need to be brought forward. There was no evidence of intimidation by the Black Panthers, so there was no case. Remember: a civil suit was filed. The civil case went forward, but since the defendants didn't show up, a default judgment was entered. What this effectively meant was that the defendants lost the right to present their own evidence. The fact that a default judgment was entered did not absolve the DOJ of their duty to bring forth sufficient evidence to show that a violation of the law had occurred; that was the whole problem of this case, because there was no evidence that there was voter intimidation. If somebody had come forward and filed a complaint and the case wasn't followed up on, I would completely agree with you. However, the facts of the case are clear as night and day. This was entirely an embarrassing show of political theater.

That's great. So this is gonna lead to stupid PSA's and shit on TV 24/7, I can see it already. Just like Michelle Obama and her fat kids cause or Nancy Reagan and her Just Say No cause. They're going to spend money for TV ads, and not actually solve the problem. It's a face-saving measure. What we need is actual neurologists and doctors doing studies on this crap, not "launching a dialogue" of talking to people.

A PSA campaign would obviously be pretty ineffective on it's own, but it's being coupled with other measures which would make it more effective. As for studies, Obama is currently working on getting that done:

- Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

He has also called on Congress to end the freeze on gun violence research.

Well, there is no nation who just does it overnight. As for the bill of rights...that doesn't mean shit anymore. As far as Obama goes, we've had a guy thrown in jail without trial for making an anti-muslim video, we have people in gitmo with no trial, we have the patriot act, and most recently, we just passed a federal law that requires states to participate in a money grabbing scheme.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula had a trial. He pleaded guilty. Gitmo and the Patriot Act are both national disgraces for sure, but I have no idea what you're referring to when you say "we just passed a federal law that requires states to participate in a money grabbing scheme."

We don't need to be playing a game of "bargaining chips"

Yes, this is literally how negotiations work. Obama needs every card he can get to negotiate with the House GOP, have you payed attention to the Fiscal Cliff drama? Not even Boehner can control them.

That's what the assault weapons ban is.

I understand this perfectly well. I'm saying Obama has not made the renewal of the AWB the center of his gun control plan, nor does he expect to actually have it renewed.

Fair enough. Notice the guns used were not what the government defines as "assault weapons". Hell, one of the was a 22 pistol. Which under the proposed ban, will not be touched. Nor will 12 gauge shotguns (another gun used). The type of gun, is not the problem...fully automatic, military style weapons are already banned.

Which is why I don't support gun bans if they don't ban handguns. This is impossible without a Constitutional amendment. By the way, are automatic military style weapons actually banned? I thought you had to go through a shit ton of red tape to get them, on top of them being extremely expensive, but not impossible to own. Same with actual military hardware.

Yes, I know..I didn't mean LITERALLY 20 years ago...

Then why did the rise in mass shootings start occurring 40 years after the fact? That's a pretty large gap.

My point was, where's medications in water run off, the food is filled with hormones, and even genetically modified...and they don't even know the risks of genetic modification yet! Other nations do not seem to have the violence issues we do. I'm just saying, the food and water should be something we look at.

It's absolutely true that medicine has slowly been leeching into our water table, but as far as I'm aware there's no evidence available right now that makes the claim that there is an immediate threat to humans right now, nor will there be for the foreseeable future, let alone the effects on mental health. The concern is more direct, in the sense that it could badly fuck up the ecosystem in the not so distant future. Hormones is plausible, and there's likely to be some studies done on this that look into mental health issues, but a cursory Google search didn't bring me anything relevant. You can have a look to see which countries have fluoridated water and then look at their crime rate. Hong Kong is totally fluoridated, and has a ridiculously low intentional homicide rate.

If that was the case, I'd still support the second amendment.

And this is why it is politically impossible to impose a federal gun ban without a Constitutional amendment, because you're not alone. Far from it.

LemonCrush
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 03:23 AM Reply

At 1/23/13 01:28 AM, Feoric wrote: For them to be in jail, evidence of intimidation would need to be brought forward.

Brandishing weapons at a polling place...especially racially motivated, is kind of a big deal

A PSA campaign would obviously be pretty ineffective on it's own, but it's being coupled with other measures which would make it more effective. As for studies, Obama is currently working on getting that done:

- Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

He has also called on Congress to end the freeze on gun violence research.

Well, hopefully this goes through. Hopefully the PROPER research is carried out

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula had a trial. He pleaded guilty. Gitmo and the Patriot Act are both national disgraces for sure, but I have no idea what you're referring to when you say "we just passed a federal law that requires states to participate in a money grabbing scheme."

He pleaded guilty to what? And how? Is making uploading an anti (insert religion) video even a triable crime? The money grabbing scheme, btw, is Obamacare, where it is now LAW to give your hard earned money, to insurance moguls. Remember when Obama was gonna put an end to that? I do. He ran on it. Twice.

Yes, this is literally how negotiations work. Obama needs every card he can get to negotiate with the House GOP, have you payed attention to the Fiscal Cliff drama? Not even Boehner can control them.

So?

Bargains and politics do not solve problems, especially one like this.

I understand this perfectly well. I'm saying Obama has not made the renewal of the AWB the center of his gun control plan, nor does he expect to actually have it renewed.

Then why bother? I know why. It's posturing.

Which is why I don't support gun bans if they don't ban handguns. This is impossible without a Constitutional amendment. By the way, are automatic military style weapons actually banned? I thought you had to go through a shit ton of red tape to get them, on top of them being extremely expensive, but not impossible to own. Same with actual military hardware.

No impossible, but practically so. It's prohibitively expensive. We're talking 10s of thousands, and on top of that, the Sheriff has to sign off on it, and that it very unlikely considering if you do go on a rampage, he'll probably lose his career.

It's absolutely true that medicine has slowly been leeching into our water table, but as far as I'm aware there's no evidence available right now that makes the claim that there is an immediate threat to humans right now, nor will there be for the foreseeable future, let alone the effects on mental health. The concern is more direct, in the sense that it could badly fuck up the ecosystem in the not so distant future. Hormones is plausible, and there's likely to be some studies done on this that look into mental health issues, but a cursory Google search didn't bring me anything relevant. You can have a look to see which countries have fluoridated water and then look at their crime rate. Hong Kong is totally fluoridated, and has a ridiculously low intentional homicide rate.

I'm not saying it's specifically flouride, or anything specific. I'm just speaking of GMO's and hormones in general. You have food and drug industry CEOs sitting on the FDA....I don't trust them to fully disclose negative side effects.

And this is why it is politically impossible to impose a federal gun ban without a Constitutional amendment, because you're not alone. Far from it.

I know

Feoric
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 04:58 AM Reply

At 1/23/13 03:23 AM, LemonCrush wrote: Brandishing weapons at a polling place...especially racially motivated, is kind of a big deal

Sure, and I'm not defending them or condoning their philosophy, but unless you know names of people who were intimidated by them that day at the polling station, the DOJ did all it legally could given the evidence available.

He pleaded guilty to what? And how? Is making uploading an anti (insert religion) video even a triable crime? The money grabbing scheme, btw, is Obamacare, where it is now LAW to give your hard earned money, to insurance moguls. Remember when Obama was gonna put an end to that? I do. He ran on it. Twice.

He was not arrested because he made the video, he pleaded guilty to four counts of parole violation from when he was arrested in 2010 for check fraud.

So?

Bargains and politics do not solve problems, especially one like this.

What do you mean so? Whether you like it or not this is a highly political issue, and there is going to be an enormous amount of politics at play here. I wish that wasn't the case either, but you can't just wish it away. Obama posturing on the AWB is no different than Republicans saying (for years now) that Obama and the U.N. are going to take away your guns. Politicians aint worth shit without their base, and this kind of stuff excites the base. Having the AWB negotiated away is great for the GOP base, because they fucking hate it. Obama is just simply not going to reach a deal with the GOP on this issue by flat out saying what he wants and leaving it at that, he's going to shoot high and shoot low and see where the negotiations go from there. You may think it's a ridiculous process and transparently full of shit, I do too, but I doubt Obama would disagree with you as well.

Then why bother? I know why. It's posturing.

Yes, it is! It also puts him in a better position to get done what the both of us want to happen with regards to research, for example.

I'm not saying it's specifically flouride, or anything specific. I'm just speaking of GMO's and hormones in general. You have food and drug industry CEOs sitting on the FDA....I don't trust them to fully disclose negative side effects.

Well, I agree to an extent, but I like the idea of the FDA, because I don't trust medical companies to police themselves. On the other hand, there have been a number of scandals involving pharmaceutical companies influencing the FDA to speed line their application process through key contacts in the organization, and there have also been claims that certain firms managed to convince the FDA to stonewall potential substitute drugs from competitors in order for them to have a de facto monopoly on it (and also that international drugs have been historically stonewalled by the FDA as a pseudo-protectionist measure for US pharmaceutical firms). It's not like the current FDA is a perfect protectionist system, both in terms of allowance of viable drugs and trying to ensure fair market play (by not creating barriers to entry through their own corruption). It's not as horrible as many anti-FDA blowhards make it it to be, but it isn't great, either. I certainly don't pretend that the current system is perfect, but the answer is not to relax rules or throw away the whole system.

To get back on topic, I'd take the FDA's word on anything compared to the word of any gun lobbyist group on any issue.

I know

Great!

At 1/22/13 01:24 PM, TheMason wrote: 1) The UT-Austin shooting involved civilians coming with their own firearms and aiding an overwhelmed police force in stopping the shooter.

Yet he still managed to kill 14 people at the school and injured 32 people. It's worth mentioning that the good samaritan who helped the three officers take him down accidentally shot his rifle which blew their cover, and one officer immediately shot all 6 bullets from his revolver at Whitman from a distance of 50 feet, and they all missed. This is why having teachers with guns is such a monumentally stupid idea. Nobody has perfect accuracy, especially under pressure in tense situations. The more bullets you have flying around, the more accidents there can be.

2) Over the past 20 years these kind of mass shooters have quadrupled. This includes the 10 year period that an AWB was in effect. Some of the things they correlate to are: lyme disease, lead concentrations in paint and the atmosphere from leaded gasoline (before you point out that leaded gasoline went bye-bye circa late 1980s...know that lead levels are not effeciently processed by the body and therefore can remain in one's system for decades), and the school reforms of Clinton, Bush, and now Obama. :)

Interestingly, Whitman had a cancerous growth pressing up against his amygdala. Before his rampage, he mentioned in a later that he wanted his body to be autopsied to see if there was âEUoea physical cause for his mental anguish." When the autopsy was performed, the region of his amygdala had a a walnut sized tumor. This tumor was compressing his amygdala, causing it to be stimulated at all times. It's assumed to have significantly contributed to his psychosis, since he was apparently a pretty normal guy growing up.

In order to address the issue of mass shooters, you want to investigate things that you say correlate, like lyme disease and lead concentrations. Have you looked into Internet Explorer?

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Saen
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 09:01 AM Reply

At 1/23/13 04:58 AM, Feoric wrote:
In order to address the issue of mass shooters, you want to investigate things that you say correlate, like lyme disease and lead concentrations. Have you looked into Internet Explorer?

Ahahaha wow nice

TheMason
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 12:54 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 04:58 AM, Feoric wrote:
At 1/22/13 01:24 PM, TheMason wrote:
Yet he still managed to kill 14 people at the school and injured 32 people. It's worth mentioning that the good samaritan who helped the three officers take him down accidentally shot his rifle which blew their cover, and one officer immediately shot all 6 bullets from his revolver at Whitman from a distance of 50 feet, and they all missed. This is why having teachers with guns is such a monumentally stupid idea. Nobody has perfect accuracy, especially under pressure in tense situations. The more bullets you have flying around, the more accidents there can be.

I'll address the 'Teachers to Troops' idea later and elsewhere.

There was more than one good Samaritan. Many responded and their combined fire pinned Whitman down for others to enter the tower and take out the threat.


In order to address the issue of mass shooters, you want to investigate things that you say correlate, like lyme disease and lead concentrations. Have you looked into Internet Explorer?

Please don't hurt yourself patting your own back for your wit (sure wouldn't be for your wisdom :P )!

LYME DISEASE
Heard about this on the Ed Schultz show on Sirius Left. A MD called in talking about Lyme rage...a psychosis associated with Lyme disease. Something pathological makes sense.

LEAD POISONING
can cause psychosis. Concentrations of lead pollution correlate to violent geographic areas. Heard about this from the bastion of NRA propaganda called the Huffington Post. :)

But hey... if you've got no point try misdirection disguised as wit! ;)


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LemonCrush
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 23rd, 2013 @ 12:55 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 04:58 AM, Feoric wrote: Sure, and I'm not defending them or condoning their philosophy, but unless you know names of people who were intimidated by them that day at the polling station, the DOJ did all it legally could given the evidence available.

It was on fucking film man. This DOJ is soft and everyone knows it

He was not arrested because he made the video, he pleaded guilty to four counts of parole violation from when he was arrested in 2010 for check fraud.

Dude, we argue a lot, but I don't think you're dumb enough to assume that you think his arrest just happened to coincide with the attacks on the Consulate, which the President claimed was because of his video.

What do you mean so? Whether you like it or not this is a highly political issue, and there is going to be an enormous amount of politics at play here. I wish that wasn't the case either, but you can't just wish it away. Obama posturing on the AWB is no different than Republicans saying (for years now) that Obama and the U.N. are going to take away your guns. Politicians aint worth shit without their base, and this kind of stuff excites the base. Having the AWB negotiated away is great for the GOP base, because they fucking hate it. Obama is just simply not going to reach a deal with the GOP on this issue by flat out saying what he wants and leaving it at that, he's going to shoot high and shoot low and see where the negotiations go from there. You may think it's a ridiculous process and transparently full of shit, I do too, but I doubt Obama would disagree with you as well.

Politics and compromises, especially in this administration, are the reason we're having such major problems. We can't even get a budget passed because everyone (in DC) is afraid of losing voters. The problem is politics as a career. We should not have career politicians. It creates a conflict of interest.

Well, I agree to an extent, but I like the idea of the FDA, because I don't trust medical companies to police themselves. On the other hand, there have been a number of scandals involving pharmaceutical companies influencing the FDA to speed line their application process through key contacts in the organization, and there have also been claims that certain firms managed to convince the FDA to stonewall potential substitute drugs from competitors in order for them to have a de facto monopoly on it (and also that international drugs have been historically stonewalled by the FDA as a pseudo-protectionist measure for US pharmaceutical firms). It's not like the current FDA is a perfect protectionist system, both in terms of allowance of viable drugs and trying to ensure fair market play (by not creating barriers to entry through their own corruption). It's not as horrible as many anti-FDA blowhards make it it to be, but it isn't great, either. I certainly don't pretend that the current system is perfect, but the answer is not to relax rules or throw away the whole system.

And that is the problem. The FDA is far too corruptible. The FDA is basically a safeguard that permits medical companies to police themselves.

Feoric
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 08:33 PM Reply

At 1/23/13 12:55 PM, LemonCrush wrote: It was on fucking film man. This DOJ is soft and everyone knows it

Did the video document them intimidating voters and/or actively preventing people from voting? Did anyone come out and say they were intimidated? No? Then there's no voter intimidation case, and there's nothing left to discuss.

Dude, we argue a lot, but I don't think you're dumb enough to assume that you think his arrest just happened to coincide with the attacks on the Consulate, which the President claimed was because of his video.

We're covering a lot of ground which is not related to the topic of gun control. His arrest coincided with the attack because he lied to federal authorities about his involvement in the film when he was investigated (he used a fake name, Sam Bacile). Also:

"Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer."

I recommend this article (at least read #3 if you have no interest in reading the whole thing).

Politics and compromises, especially in this administration, are the reason we're having such major problems. We can't even get a budget passed because everyone (in DC) is afraid of losing voters. The problem is politics as a career. We should not have career politicians. It creates a conflict of interest.

It's hard to compromise with people who are hell bent on being ideologically pure and damn the consequences. This is hardly Obama's fault, take a look at what Obama wanted to get done with the Fiscal Cliff and see where the Tea Party took him.

At 1/23/13 12:54 PM, TheMason wrote: Please don't hurt yourself patting your own back for your wit (sure wouldn't be for your wisdom :P )!

Don't take it personal, I was just looking for an opportunity to post that image.

LYME DISEASE
Heard about this on the Ed Schultz show on Sirius Left. A MD called in talking about Lyme rage...a psychosis associated with Lyme disease. Something pathological makes sense.

Let me just start off saying that it's undeniable that Lyme Disease causes psychological symptoms. However, I think this Lyme Rage label overspecifies. With pretty much any disease, not just Lyme, there is a dramatic shift in symptoms from one patient to the next. For example, depression is fairly common symptom of Lyme disease. So is anxiety and mental fatigue. If an accredited doctor claims that Lyme Rage may be experienced by some, then fine! I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But that also doesn't mean Lyme Rage accounts for a significant amount of incidents, either. By all means, let the CDC and other institutions study this. I think it's plausible, but unlikely, that this would adequately explain what exactly was going inside Adam Lanza's head, but there's no harm in a scientific investigation which would hopefully give more literature on the subject.

LEAD POISONING
can cause psychosis. Concentrations of lead pollution correlate to violent geographic areas. Heard about this from the bastion of NRA propaganda called the Huffington Post. :)

I read about this on Mother Jones, where this was originally reported on if I'm not mistaken. And you're right! I'm normally not a big fan, but TYT has an interesting discussion about it. I still think it's important to emphasis that there's a correlation, and that there are many variables at play here, but I certainly won't just handwave this away. I'd like to see a connection made between areas with high lead concentration and their poverty level.

LemonCrush
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Response to Gun confiscation Jan. 24th, 2013 @ 09:51 PM Reply

At 1/24/13 08:33 PM, Feoric wrote: Did the video document them intimidating voters and/or actively preventing people from voting? Did anyone come out and say they were intimidated? No? Then there's no voter intimidation case, and there's nothing left to discuss.

So, it's a law that if have to actually verbalize it? That's bullshit? Brandishing a weapon, especially at a polling place, is intimidation. That's why they were there with billy clubs in the first place. Should be obvious to anyone with a brain.

We're covering a lot of ground which is not related to the topic of gun control. His arrest coincided with the attack because he lied to federal authorities about his involvement in the film when he was investigated (he used a fake name, Sam Bacile). Also:

He should have never been investigated at all. The fact that they investigated him for having an opinion is bad enough, but then to pin the fault of the dead ambassadors in Libya, on him, to cover up foreign policy fuckups, is disgusting, and in my eyes, one of the reasons I wouldn't piss on Obama if he was on fire.

Investigating the guy was wrong. Scapegoating him was wrong.

"Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer."

That's fine.

It's hard to compromise with people who are hell bent on being ideologically pure and damn the consequences. This is hardly Obama's fault, take a look at what Obama wanted to get done with the Fiscal Cliff and see where the Tea Party took him.

Oh jeez, I guess everything bad is everyone's fault but Obama's, right? "It was my predecessor's fault". "It's Republican's fault". That's such a bullshit cop-out excuse. He has been President for FIVE fucking years. Blaming the opposition and other people got old back in March 2009. Hell, for his first 2 years, he had democrats all up in the House.

Every politician has problems with their opposition. Most of them overcome it. Hell, Bush convinced "peace loving" democrats to invade Iraq. Every single fucking president has had very little problem reaching across the aisle. Fuck, even Romney, as governor did so. Obama seems to be the only one having an issue. Time for him to stop playing a victim and start being this supposed leader he's claimed to be.

Obama himself has been pretty un-budgingly hellbent ideologically too.