At 1/10/13 06:31 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
There is nothing that separates the US government from such regimes.
There is a shit ton that does actually. It's still a ridiculous reduction that just gets more ridiculous, not less, when you repeat it.
They made of people who are just as corruptible, and potentially just as evil.
POTENTIALLY, but they have not shown themselves to be. Nor acted in a way that they are. So you do reduction to oppressive regimes based on potential. There's a word for that: Bullshit.
To pretend that the US government wouldn't stoop to such levels is ignorant and foolish.
Or it would just be a matter of looking at the fact that they historically DO NOT do so. Even in times of the greatest stress and fear they do not do it. So cut it out captain alarmist. I'd say the ground you were standing on was shaky, but it already ruptured and collapsed long ago.
There's no reason to pretend like US politicians are somehow different than others in history....
Other then the fact that they have been different then many in history? Go ahead, let's start naming names and doing compare and contrast. For example, Barrack Obama is TOTALLY different from Adolf Hitler. George Bush is waaaay different then Ghengis Khan...I can keep doing this, but I think the point was made.
especially considering it's actions in the past 15-20 years (give or take)
Again, let's start getting specific because I'm getting a little tired of how easy it is to deflate these broad, vague, generalizations.
Depends. When people get afraid, they allow politicians to do fucked up shit.
I'm talking about THIS specific bill, and the mechanisms of THIS specific law. I like specifics, let's stay in that realm. Now, looking again at THIS SPECIFIC LAW, I don't see the mechanism where she "disarms" America. If you do, please explain it to me. Because all I see is a law that adds a few more layers of restriction to who gets guns. It doesn't take the guns entirely.
Case in point, Patriot Act and the Iraq War....
That isn't entirely about fear. Fear didn't get those passed, fear and lies greased the wheels to get those EXISTING plans and bills rammed through. But it did not create them. Much the same is happening here, this incident didn't create the mindset that is pushing these laws or driving this debate. It's just a flashpoint for renewed discussion and action.
or the first weapons ban in response to Columbine....
What weapons ban? I don't remember a "weapons ban".
hell, even post-WW1 Germany is a good example.
No, it really isn't. There were a number of factors that made the Nazis seem a good idea in post-WW1 Germany.
Hell, Obama said recently after the Sandy Hook shooting "One of the worst tragedies in our memory. The country deserves for folks to be willing to compromise on behalf of the greater good"
You don't think it's one of the worst tragedies in our memory? Innocent kids getting shot on their way to school? You're a pretty fucked up person if you don't agree with that. Compromise also cuts both ways, and I think if people on both sides aren't totally bullheaded I think we CAN find a solution we can all live with because we should all be agreed something like that should NEVER happen again.
When bad shit happens, people are more willing and susceptible to letting tyranny slide...
Sure, but there's no "tyranny" here. Just the imaginary knee jerk shit every gun owner pulls the minute people start debating gun control. They start trumping up the debate, pushing it into ridiculous places rather then be mature and intelligent.
Ever notice how cops carry guns? Why do you think that is?
That doesn't address my point, or the failure of your original one.
You have to be trained and licensed and undergo evaluation/investigation (or a combination of the three depending on the type of gun), to legally own a gun too.
Which is great. That happened in this case for the mother, who then let her crazy son get his hands on the gun. That's why to me the debate should be less about guns, and more about why someone so troubled was allowed in the general population and what not. It's more about how we treat the mentally ill then about guns to me.
As for police and laws....well murder is illegal, yes? Didn't stop a lunatic from stealing a gun, and killing 20 or so elementary school students, did it? How about we make meth illegal too! That'll keep it off the streets, right?
All I'm arguing against is the ridiculous assertion you keep making that weapons are a-ok seemingly and there's no downside.
EVERY SINGLE gun owner I've met...
1. Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.
2. Once you mentioned a reason to own or obtain other then defense, you proved my point.
Why are you still arguing with me again?
Wrong people will ALWAYS find a way to get a weapon. Always. A crazy person will kill someone with whatever they can find. Hell, one of the worst mass murders in history used boxcutters and airplanes as the weapon.
So we shouldn't try and do anything because somebody is always going to get around it? Well, guess we best just pack up law, order, and government right the fuck now then...and yes, that is EXACTLY where that argument logically ends.
There will always be crazy people, and they will always use whatever they can to hurt people. They could jump in a car and start running people over, go on a shooting spree, throw them in gas chambers, or hijack airplanes. You wanna ban airplanes because they get hijacked or bombed? Wanna ban cars? They kill a lot of people.
Nobody is talking about banning anything really nitwit. That's what the crazy gun nuts are trying to make this into. Government says "we want to make it harder for bad people to get guns" you people scream "they're coming for our guns!" Shut up and listen already.
The only way to prevent a crazy person from hurting you, is having an effective means of stopping them.
Or, you know, locking them up or otherwise properly identifying and treating their crazy. That can work too.
Taking away weapons will not work.
Good thing nobody is trying to really.
The only way to stop a shooter effectively, is to use a weapon. That's why cops carry guns.
You mean the licensed, tested, and trained people? The kind of people that will still be able to get guns even if this stuff passes?
Anything can be a weapon. I could go on a killing spree in my car right now if I wanted to. But I don't. As stated before 9/11 was one of the biggest mass murders in US history. Wanna ban airplanes?
Ok, if you're not going to actually rationally answer my arguments and debate me based on what I say then we're done here.
A gun only becomes lethal if improperly operated as well.
Bullshit, a gun is INTENDED to be lethal. It fires a projectile at high speeds which is designed to pierce it's target, it was designed as an offensive and defensive WEAPON. Cars and other means of convenience which carry potential lethality, are primarily designed for a function than as weaponry. I tell you not to compare apples to oranges, you ignore me and scream the improper comparison louder. That isn't debate.
You tihnk he bought it with the intent of shooting someone with it?
I don't know what your friend's intent is. Kind of the problem and my whole point. Weapons collection can be benign, or it can be the first step towards a very nasty incident down the road. That's why people look at a gun collector differently then say a comic book collector.
As for gun owners, they are licensed. If you aren't, and you use your gun, even to stop a person from robbing you at an ATM, you're going to jail. Also, all guns in retail stores are registered as well.
I'm aware of all of these things. Oh, right, you think anybody who doesn't agree with you wants guns banned. Narrow viewpoint, that's why we can't have meaningful debate until you actually READ what I SAY. Not what you THINK I'm saying.