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johnathan-wrathborne
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Military detention of US citizens Dec. 27th, 2012 @ 07:11 AM Reply

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/senate-approves-indef inite-military-detention-of-us-citizens-in-us-121226?news=84 6586
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/21/senate-passes-ndaa-wit hout-indefinite-detention-ban-sen-paul-calls-it-abomination/

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/15237-se nate-passes-ndaa-indefinite-detention-bill
Well, so much for the bill of rights, the constitutions, and habeas corpus.

Looks like we're going to officially live under a police state now that our own government has put in motion a new machine that would make Stalin proud.

Welcome to Amerika.

theburningliberal
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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 30th, 2012 @ 03:30 PM Reply

Quoted from Rep. McKeon's speech in support of the FY2013 NDAA that passed the House earlier this year...

Foreign terrorist groups, such as al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, still pose a grave threat to all U.S. citizens. As a result of last year's bill, we've heard from a number of concerned citizens wondering what this affirmation meant in relation to the rights of U.S. citizens. As a result, in this year's bill, we've incorporated Representatives Scott Rigell and Jeff Landry's Right to Habeas Corpus Act, which affirms the availability of the âEUoe great writ'' habeas corpus to any person detained in the United States pursuant to the AUMF. As we all know, the writ of habeas corpus is the ultimate protection against any unlawful detention by the Executive.

So, basically, the NDAA includes a provision that states that nothing in the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) or the FY 2013 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) shall be construed to deny the availability of the writ of habeas corpus or to deny any Constitutional rights in a court ordained or established by or under Article III of the Constitution to any person inside the United States who would be entitled to the availability of such writ or to such rights in the absence of such laws. So much for Amerika.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 30th, 2012 @ 03:43 PM Reply

Honestly we keep hearing about these bills that strip away our freedoms, but seriously how often do we actually hear them in action? The Patriot Act was like that but it only got a few innocent people on accident and it didn't seem to cause much more controversy after that. With a media as open as the US and news stations as hungry for controversy as ours you'd think that if it really were a huge deal it would've been used to say jail prominent activists like say Occupy Wall Street.


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 30th, 2012 @ 04:38 PM Reply

At 12/30/12 03:43 PM, Warforger wrote: Honestly we keep hearing about these bills that strip away our freedoms, but seriously how often do we actually hear them in action? The Patriot Act was like that but it only got a few innocent people on accident and it didn't seem to cause much more controversy after that. With a media as open as the US and news stations as hungry for controversy as ours you'd think that if it really were a huge deal it would've been used to say jail prominent activists like say Occupy Wall Street.

Just the fact that the government has the power to do what is listed in the Patriot Act or the NDAA is concerning enough, and the US media has become so partisan that anything from the major news networks here can be misconstrued as propaganda from the other side instead of fact even though the latter may be true.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 30th, 2012 @ 04:41 PM Reply

At 12/30/12 03:43 PM, Warforger wrote: Honestly we keep hearing about these bills that strip away our freedoms, but seriously how often do we actually hear them in action? The Patriot Act was like that but it only got a few innocent people on accident and it didn't seem to cause much more controversy after that. With a media as open as the US and news stations as hungry for controversy as ours you'd think that if it really were a huge deal it would've been used to say jail prominent activists like say Occupy Wall Street.

;;;;
Its been used to hold citizens against all USA rules of law AKA Guantanamo Bay

Its been used to murder US citizens in other countries ...for POSSIBLY being terrorists.
But since they were never arrested, never charged & never had any benefit of Habeas Corpus ...they were murdered by order of Pres Obamma .
It was in another country so, who cares right !?!

An American Citizen once wrote quote -" people who don't read the news papers (this was in a time before TV/Internet) are uninformed, but those who do, are misinformed "

IF you are a supposed free country, they shouldn't be allowed to even suggest your rights 7 freedoms can be infringed on. Since they have done so, you are less free if not as in My Opinion , soon to be slaves of your state with no more rights than anyone in the Soviet Union or North Korea.
You may spew the bullshit about your gun laws, but seeing as Your military & Homeland security (who've bought over a BILLION rounds of ammunition designed to kill & maim) are free to do whatever they wish, wioth out any restrictions from your Constitution or Bill of Rights . You are fucked as soon as they decide to act, or whenever they wish to act !


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Camarohusky
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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 30th, 2012 @ 07:53 PM Reply

So you're telling me that the government is allowed to hold prisoners of war until the conflict is over?

Since when was this news?

Warforger
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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 30th, 2012 @ 08:09 PM Reply

At 12/30/12 04:41 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Its been used to hold citizens against all USA rules of law AKA Guantanamo Bay

Its been used to murder US citizens in other countries ...for POSSIBLY being terrorists.
But since they were never arrested, never charged & never had any benefit of Habeas Corpus ...they were murdered by order of Pres Obamma .
It was in another country so, who cares right !?!

Again, all I've ever heard were either they got people who were genuinely terrorists who probably were planning attacks or it was a rare case where they hit a couple of innocents, which number somewhere in the single digit.

An American Citizen once wrote quote -" people who don't read the news papers (this was in a time before TV/Internet) are uninformed, but those who do, are misinformed "

IF you are a supposed free country, they shouldn't be allowed to even suggest your rights 7 freedoms can be infringed on. Since they have done so, you are less free if not as in My Opinion , soon to be slaves of your state with no more rights than anyone in the Soviet Union or North Korea.

North Korea and the Soviet Union do/did not care what their law said and did many things that went against official stances. If the US government tries to do things like this they would break the law since they are the law after all (like say every president from Kennedy to Nixon).

You may spew the bullshit about your gun laws, but seeing as Your military & Homeland security (who've bought over a BILLION rounds of ammunition designed to kill & maim) are free to do whatever they wish, wioth out any restrictions from your Constitution or Bill of Rights . You are fucked as soon as they decide to act, or whenever they wish to act !

The US simply is not a good environment for any military dictatorship. The political culture is just too solidly democratic. Part of the whole American nationality are rights and freedoms, any dictatorship would have a difficult time to remove them. Now there were a couple of times when the government restricted freedom of speech, during WWI and during the Adams Sr. Presidency, but during WWI & the subsequent Red Scare it was mostly sensationalist policies that were later repudiated. There was even a little during WWII, but this was a war again. The only time it wasn't during a war was with Adams, then again we were technically in a war then too. But these were all temporary, none of them outlasted the President who passed them.

But this doesn't say anything about my point, if these laws truly are as wild as the alarmists say they are then shouldn't there have been a broader use of say the Patriot Act over 10 years now? I mean I'm not saying that it wasn't abused in some cases, but there hasn't been any widespread jailing if you say question the government.


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 30th, 2012 @ 09:02 PM Reply

At 12/27/12 07:11 AM, johnathan-wrathborne wrote: Well, so much for the bill of rights, the constitutions, and habeas corpus.

Oh wow, stripping away rights to American citizens who join foreign terrorist groups and who threaten other Americans with attacks, yeah the Constitution is being ripped apart. Apparently, you haven't heard of the Patriot Act, and simply heard of all of the sensationalized crap about it.

Looks like we're going to officially live under a police state now that our own government has put in motion a new machine that would make Stalin proud.

You're way off. First off, every government who is at war with whoever can detain prisoners of war until the war ends, now how they treat them is up to the government themselves, second, they're not going to take the average Joe citizen and arrest him on terrorist charges without a good amount of evidence and some good reasoning. Simply put, if you don't do anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about. Good god, how many times do I have to say this before it starts sinking in to these ultra left-wing sensationalists and the politically ignorant?

Now before anyone gets the wrong idea, I get that certain rights were suspended for various reasons throughout American history, and they certainly range from simple knee jerk overreactions {John Adams Sr. and Abe Lincoln} to outright gaffes, {Japanese Internment in WW2} but as I said, these were simply overreactions {during war no less} that were soon corrected when the President left office. Do you really think that politicians in America would intentionally pull off this kind of stunt in peacetime, and expect to be voted back in to office? The answer is no.

We need to stop overreacting and sensationalizing crap like this.


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Camarohusky
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Response to Military detention of US citizens Dec. 31st, 2012 @ 12:04 AM Reply

At 12/30/12 09:02 PM, orangebomb wrote: overreacting
sensationalizing

This right here is the whole issue summed up in 2 words.

morefngdbs
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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 1st, 2013 @ 11:24 AM Reply

At 12/30/12 09:02 PM, orangebomb wrote: You're way off. First off, every government who is at war with whoever can detain prisoners of war until the war ends, n:

;;;;
First Of .... You are not at war with anyone !
Terrorists, are not a country, are not a government ...so you may be fighting against terrorism, & those who are trying to attack citizens & American targets .... that doesn't mean you are at war ! !

We need to stop overreacting and sensationalizing crap like this.

What you really F'in need IMO is to stop not only bullshitting everyone (or at least attempting to do so) you need to stop believing your own rhetoric & bullshit & using that bullshit to convince yourselves you are at war

Because you are presently at war with drugs (well some of them not all & of course your BS machine is still fucked up over a plant aka marijuanna calling it a drug ! ! ! !! )

You have a war on terrorism ...but have no terrorist government to confront, no terrorist army to fight, you are waging war on a few people here & a few there & killing shitloads of innocent people ...but because they are way over in Asia ...you all seem to think because you are at "WAR" its some how OK ...well I ( & many others) believe you are wrong.
You are not at war & your Government policy & Bullshit machine attempting to convice everyone is completely insane & it isn't fuckin' OK at all & murdering innocent men women & shitloads of children & babies to kill possibly a terrorist or 2 is WRONG .

Let us not forget your war on Communism (when did you end that by the way ?)

And if you are really tryin gto FIX problems by declaring war ...when are you goin gto declare war on Homelessness & a War on Poverty ?
With 44 million + people in America on Welfare , you really need to combat that, 44 million people back to work or even 22 million back to work would make a hell of a dent in your poverty !

But that won't pay the military war machine suppliers anything ...so those 2 wars will never be declare ...funny ole fact of the USA there isn't it ?


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Camarohusky
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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 1st, 2013 @ 12:15 PM Reply

At 1/1/13 11:24 AM, morefngdbs wrote: so those 2 wars will never be declare ...funny ole fact of the USA there isn't it ?

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Both the Iraq War and the war on terrorism had declarations of war in every aspect except for the words "declaration of war". The fancy euphamism "authorization for use of military force" is the ONLY aspect that separates the Iraq AUMF and the Terror AUMF from declarations of war.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 1st, 2013 @ 01:27 PM Reply

At 1/1/13 12:15 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 1/1/13 11:24 AM, morefngdbs wrote: so those 2 wars will never be declare ...funny ole fact of the USA there isn't it ?
Both the Iraq War and the war on terrorism had declarations of war in every aspect except for the words "declaration of war". The fancy euphamism "authorization for use of military force" is the ONLY aspect that separates the Iraq AUMF and the Terror AUMF from declarations of war.

;;;
I thought my memory of that time was clear .
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/September-Oc tober-08/On-this-Day--President-Bush-Declares--War-on-Terror -.html

Bush declared War
Also he wanted to invade Iraq for oil interests ...I mean terrorism long before !
& we know this from recently declassified info
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/new-documents-show-bush-adm inistration-plan#sthash.Pv0sodUV.dpbs

Plus I'm pretty sure Obamma said the war in Iraq is over ....so i went & looked & found this

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/308-12/8014-bre aking-obama-declares-iraq-war-over

Bullshit by any other name smells just as bad !


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 1st, 2013 @ 03:46 PM Reply

At 12/30/12 03:43 PM, Warforger wrote: Honestly we keep hearing about these bills that strip away our freedoms, but seriously how often do we actually hear them in action? The Patriot Act was like that but it only got a few innocent people on accident and it didn't seem to cause much more controversy after that. With a media as open as the US and news stations as hungry for controversy as ours you'd think that if it really were a huge deal it would've been used to say jail prominent activists like say Occupy Wall Street.

Now this is funny.

Democrats, when speaking of gun control, go on and on about the POTENTIAL of misuse and danger.

But fail to see or care about the potential danger of Obama's tyrannical Nazi-esque policies.

Camarohusky
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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 1st, 2013 @ 03:47 PM Reply

At 1/1/13 01:27 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Bullshit by any other name smells just as bad !

What does any of that have to do with the AUMFs being a declaration of war under another name?

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 1st, 2013 @ 04:27 PM Reply

I honestly can't believe how many people are okay with the government tracking every move and invading their privacy on a daily basis.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 1st, 2013 @ 06:37 PM Reply

At 1/1/13 11:24 AM, morefngdbs wrote:
At 12/30/12 09:02 PM, orangebomb wrote: You're way off. First off, every government who is at war with whoever can detain prisoners of war until the war ends, n:
;;;;
First Of .... You are not at war with anyone !
Terrorists, are not a country, are not a government ...so you may be fighting against terrorism, & those who are trying to attack citizens & American targets .... that doesn't mean you are at war ! !

Clearly you are stupid, or you just trying to piss me off. Just because we technically didn't declare war, doesn't mean we aren't in war right now. What difference does it make anyways? Just about everyone know this by now.

We need to stop overreacting and sensationalizing crap like this.
What you really F'in need IMO is to stop not only bullshitting everyone (or at least attempting to do so) you need to stop believing your own rhetoric & bullshit & using that bullshit to convince yourselves you are at war

You have no idea what you are talking about, do you? Unlike you, I don't take any news article or event to a sensational degree to the point of there is some sort of conspiracy against our freedoms. You're the one who bullshits everyone with your strawman arguments, and taking everything you read and hear at face value.

Because you are presently at war with drugs (well some of them not all & of course your BS machine is still fucked up over a plant aka marijuanna calling it a drug ! ! ! !! )

First off, the "War on Drugs" is metaphorical, and second, what does drugs have to do with the topic at hand?

You have a war on terrorism ...but have no terrorist government to confront, no terrorist army to fight, you are waging war on a few people here & a few there & killing shitloads of innocent people ...but because they are way over in Asia ...you all seem to think because you are at "WAR" its some how OK.

Apparently, you know no concept of how war works. Just because there is no center terrorist government doesn't mean that they weren't around to attack us given the chance, and no, we don't intentionally kill civilians for shits and giggles like you want to believe. {with the exceptions of a very small number of incidents and accidents.} The war on terror is a metaphor that involves the removal of the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

You are not at war & your Government policy & Bullshit machine attempting to convice everyone is completely insane & it isn't fuckin' OK at all & murdering innocent men women & shitloads of children & babies to kill possibly a terrorist or 2 is WRONG .

Once again, we don't go around killing innocent people for shits and giggles, most of the dictators of the Middle East do just that. And besides, in a war, {or conflict} civilians can get caught in the crossfire and killed, what part of all this do you not understand?

Let us not forget your war on Communism (when did you end that by the way ?)

Again, that is metaphorical. The fact that you take everything literally and at face value is why your arguments are so idiotic.

And if you are really tryin gto FIX problems by declaring war ...when are you goin gto declare war on Homelessness & a War on Poverty ?

Read statement above.

Seriously, you need to quit lying to yourself, and stop overreacting to all of the conspiracy talk and sensationalized crap that you listen to and spew here.


Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 2nd, 2013 @ 09:56 PM Reply

At 1/1/13 04:27 PM, LemonCrush wrote: I honestly can't believe how many people are okay with the government tracking every move and invading their privacy on a daily basis.

Well paying taxes already lets the government invade your privacy. Except through that, they're price checking everything. And apparently they're very pissy about you leaving them out of the will. Well if they decided to pay for healthcare to everybody then maybe I wouldn't feel so bad about leaving them in the will, I mean at least my money would go to something good when I died.


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 3rd, 2013 @ 09:34 AM Reply

At 1/1/13 06:37 PM, orangebomb wrote: Clearly you are stupid, or you just trying to piss me off.

;;;
To see something truely stupid, go look into a mirror.

You are not at war.
IF by your stund definition war is attacking a couple of goat herders who want to kill Americans in say ...Iraq. That's not a war.

dropping a missle or a bunch of bombs on the goat herders village, killing all kinds of people , while the goat herders are presently in the hills with their goats. Isn't war ...if you or I did it , it would be & it is when yer military does it ...MURDER.

If War has to be declared to kill a couple of individuals, well did you go to war when the authorities responded to the attack onthat school in newton ?

You & your government are fucked up.
You are completely blinded by bullshit rhetoric, about being threatened.
IF
You were in so much danger by terrorists ...why haven't any more attacks happened in the US ?
Why haven't the terrorists who are so powerful, so capable, so at WAR with you ...why haven't they blown any other building up ?
No more aircraft attacks ANYWHERE in the ENTIRE WORLD.
Do you really believe your security system is so damn great its keeping all terrorists at bay ...yet the same security service can't stop attacks on schools, churches in your country ?!~?

Wake up & smell the f'in coffee dude. Most so called terrorists don't even know where Amerika is. Couldn't find it on a map even if it had you name on it in foot high letters, cause they can't read.
You are like all the rest of the gullible unthinking citizens in the USA, the government loves you , your shining lack of thought, your inability to look at facts & to blindly chant the slogans & drink the poison they feed you. While they carry on their for profit agenda , all the while telling you they are keeping you safe from a threat that is 1000 times less than your chance of dying by motor vehicle accident in your own country . It would be laughable, if so many innocent people weren't dying all over the place because policy decissions of your fucked up system of Government !

Your chances of getting killed by terrorism in Amerika ...look at it this way.
Since the so called terrorist attacks on the world trade buildings, where a reported 3000+ people died.
Yet in 2001 42,000+ people died in auto accidents !
In 2001 over 25,000 gun deaths
so your looking at a minimum of 65,000 people dying in the USa every year by guns & cars !
SINCE THAT NUMBER X 11 YEARS TO 2012 =
You wanna declare war to save Americans 737,000 DEAD compared to att the terrorist attacks on the USA since 2001 (when 3000 +0 died)

737,000 + DEAD Americans
3000 + DEAD AMERICANS

You don't have to be very smart to have it figured out that , YOU HAVE DECLARED WAR ON THE WRONG PROBLEM !

IF you had spent all the money on trying to save as many people from gun & auto deaths & even if you had only managed a 25% reduction ,184,250 + people could have been saved !

You do realise that a World Trade Centre event each & every year by terrorists is only 33,000+ dead Americans !

So sure all those dead peopel is a big problem, but if 3000 deaths leads you to declare war on a few goat herders , why isn't the problem killing 10 -15 times as many Americans ...getting little or no attention at all ?

Educate yourself, try & see the Bullshit you believe is Good Governmentpolicy for what it actually is .
Open your mind !


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 3rd, 2013 @ 12:05 PM Reply

At 1/3/13 09:34 AM, morefngdbs wrote: You are not at war.

Yes we are.

IF by your stund definition war is attacking a couple of goat herders who want to kill Americans in say ...Iraq. That's not a war.

Goat herders? I'm pretty sure a few of the Germans killed on Sword beach were teachers. CANADA KILLS TEACHERS!!!!

No, the war is against an open group, much larger than a couple, who have attacked and have made numerous attacks both on the US and the US citizend abroad.

dropping a missle or a bunch of bombs on the goat herders village, killing all kinds of people , while the goat herders are presently in the hills with their goats.

You don't know much about this subject, do you?


You are completely blinded by bullshit rhetoric, about being threatened.

You're blind to what is actually going on.

You were in so much danger by terrorists ...why haven't any more attacks happened in the US ?

IS the war necessary? THAT is where a debate can be had, but is it a war? YES, NO DEBATE.

Do you really believe your security system is so damn great its keeping all terrorists at bay

No. It's because such terrorism doesn't happen often, though the net has caught several attempts before they were carried out.

...yet the same security service can't stop attacks on schools, churches in your country ?!~?

Way to transition for a good point to a stupid strawman. Defending against international terrorists is EXTREMELY different than defending against local crazies. Hell, defending against explosive terrorism and gun terrorism require very different operations and measures, let alone shootings that do no arise from terrorist motives.

You're saying "well if you have made bus travel so safe why are there airplane crashes?" Because airplanes and buses are massively different in what it takes to make them safe.


Wake up & smell the f'in coffee dude. Most so called terrorists don't even know where Amerika is. Couldn't find it on a map even if it had you name on it in foot high letters, cause they can't read.

That's not how it works. The grunts don't make the plans. The grunts merely do what the very inbtelligent folks (the KSMs and the Bin Ladens) direct them to do. When you're following a specific plan you don't need to now what you're doing, just how to follow directions.

You don't have to be very smart to have it figured out that , YOU HAVE DECLARED WAR ON THE WRONG PROBLEM !

If you're going to debate the merits of the War on Terror, go ahead. You do make good points that I have been saying for years. But, don't just spout random non-facts and claim that it ins't a war, because it is. It is military action against a known (as an organization) foe with authorization by Congress. That is all that is needed for something be a war.

As for the non-facts go, in your attempt to show how everyone is overestimating the terrorists (which is true) you flip in completely around and very much underestimate them. They are not, and never were as ragtag as you think they are, but they are close to as impotent as you claim.

Educate yourself,

When it comes to the terrorists, I think this comment deserves to bounce off of us and stick to you. You seem to have no idea about the terrorists, their organization, and how terrorism is carried out.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 3rd, 2013 @ 04:10 PM Reply

I'm confused why people think they'd hear about the use of these acts even half as often as they are actually used.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 3rd, 2013 @ 05:18 PM Reply

At 1/3/13 04:10 PM, Ceratisa wrote: I'm confused why people think they'd hear about the use of these acts even half as often as they are actually used.

Because there are a lot of people who make it their duty to monitor and alert when something like is used.

It would only take 10,000 people with an eye on the government to notice when this takes place. The ACLU easily has that number beat all by itself.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 3rd, 2013 @ 05:48 PM Reply

At 1/3/13 09:34 AM, morefngdbs wrote:
At 1/1/13 06:37 PM, orangebomb wrote:
More Bullshit.

Seriously, what do you not get? We are in war, dumbass. It's not like we're playing pattycakes with tanks and planes and shit with the Taliban. And don't use your math here, I've dismissed everything you have to say as bullshit and wrong, or at the very least, inaccurate.

Oh, and I really do mean this, but use some fucking SPELL-CHECK before you post anything, otherwise get out. I don't even know why I bother.


Just stop worrying, and love the bomb.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 4th, 2013 @ 05:53 PM Reply

At 12/30/12 03:30 PM, theburningliberal wrote: So much for Amerika.

Tell that to Bradley Manning.

It's pretty disturbing that we're detaining people indefinitely without a trial.


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 4th, 2013 @ 07:02 PM Reply

At 1/4/13 05:53 PM, Sense-Offender wrote: Tell that to Bradley Manning.

A very unique case with a gret deal of conflicting issues. Not exactly a poster child case for "indefinite detention".

It's pretty disturbing that we're detaining people indefinitely without a trial.

Oh, so you're not in support of following the Geneva Convention?

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 4th, 2013 @ 08:49 PM Reply

At 1/1/13 03:46 PM, LemonCrush wrote: Now this is funny.

Your posts used to be funny, now they're just offensive.

Democrats, when speaking of gun control, go on and on about the POTENTIAL of misuse and danger.

Thanks but I'm not a Democrat.

But fail to see or care about the potential danger of Obama's tyrannical Nazi-esque policies.

Ahhh the Nazi accusations strike again! If you're not accused of being Hitler at least once a day as a politician something's wrong.


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 4th, 2013 @ 11:38 PM Reply

At 1/4/13 07:02 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Oh, so you're not in support of following the Geneva Convention?

I'm not in support of holding people for a long time without charges or a trial.


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 5th, 2013 @ 02:27 PM Reply

At 1/3/13 12:05 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 1/3/13 09:34 AM, morefngdbs wrote:
Yes we are.

;;;
Not in the sense of being in conflict against a Governemnt or a Country

Goat herders? I'm pretty sure a few of the Germans killed on Sword beach were teachers. CANADA KILLS TEACHERS!!!!

;;;
Yes we do !
We've killed Americans as well

No, the war is against an open group, much larger than a couple, who have attacked and have made numerous attacks both on the US and the US citizend abroad.

;;;
THat in the view of many experts is a fallicy, there are many different " groups" in conflict all over the planet. Which by the way has been going on through out history, the first world war was started by a small extremeist group today they would be labeled "terrorists"
That does not mean they are in any way a cohesive group. Nor are they in cahoots or even aware of what the other is up to or planning in the future !

You're blind to what is actually going on.

You were in so much danger by terrorists ...why haven't any more attacks happened in the US ?
IS the war necessary? THAT is where a debate can be had, but is it a war? YES, NO DEBATE.

You are not at war & believing the killing of 75 innocent people for every 25 combatants is right isn't !
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/index.html

Do you really believe your security system is so damn great its keeping all terrorists at bay
No. It's because such terrorism doesn't happen often, though the net has caught several attempts before they were carried out.

...yet the same security service can't stop attacks on schools, churches in your country ?!~?
Way to transition for a good point to a stupid strawman. Defending against international terrorists is EXTREMELY different than defending against local crazies.

Really !
Not according to yer homeland assholes !
THey are defending the government against any threat , particularly threats in America, by Americans ! ! ! So if they are really doing the job they've spent billions of your tax dollars on & are failing , then that IMO is a problem.

You're saying "well if you have made bus travel so safe why are there airplane crashes?" Because airplanes and buses are massively different in what it takes to make them safe.

But you are missing my point ...if your government has taken away & restricted &/or can restrict your rights whenever they deem fitting to "protect you"
& only 3000 Americans & others were killed in a terrorist attack.
Why are they not "protecting Americans" fromt he much bigger , much more significant problem of Auto's & guns ?

IF as they say they are all for PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE... why for are they spending millions to stopp a possible attack that could kill a few thousand people ...but not doing anything of any noticable deterent to stop the wholesale slaughter of 60,000 + Americans each 7 every year.

That was my point.
You gonna blow smoke up my ass & tell me I'm on fire I expect to feel some heat !

You (your gonernment mouth pieces) saywe are doing our"Best To Protect American Lives" ... we are passing these laws to protect Americans .... yet you aren't actually doing that at all.
Spending billions on a military machine all over the world, when the biggest threat each year to American lives is caused by Americans to each other in your own country !
That's a real problem & its one being ignored because the big military contractors & big business ...can't make any money from it !
So the biggest threats to Americans continues to harvest a toll each year that shows terrorism up by a factor hundreds of times your real American citizen killing problem !


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 5th, 2013 @ 04:15 PM Reply

At 1/5/13 02:27 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Not in the sense of being in conflict against a Governemnt or a Country

That doesn't change anything.

THat in the view of many experts is a fallicy, there are many different " groups" in conflict all over the planet. Which by the way has been going on through out history, the first world war was started by a small extremeist group today they would be labeled "terrorists"
That does not mean they are in any way a cohesive group. Nor are they in cahoots or even aware of what the other is up to or planning in the future !

There is a large group, or a loose coalition, of terrorist groups that share a similar goal: the destruction of the USA. These groups not only have a similar goal but often work together in achieving that goal. So yes, it is essentially one group (read: "terrorists who wish to attack the US and US interest abroad").

You are not at war & believing the killing of 75 innocent people for every 25 combatants is right isn't !
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/index.html

So because the ratio of civilian deaths to milatary deatsh in WWII was only 2:1 instead of 3:1 World War II is a war and the declared war on terrorist organizations is not?

THey are defending the government against any threat , particularly threats in America, by Americans ! ! ! So if they are really doing the job they've spent billions of your tax dollars on & are failing , then that IMO is a problem.

Nut-house attacks on crowded locations are NOT attacks on the government. Is that one difference enough to cue you in as to why defending againt them is so different?

Why are they not "protecting Americans" fromt he much bigger , much more significant problem of Auto's & guns ?

Auto-deaths are 100% created by the choice of the victim. The victim chooses to drive and therefore accepts the risk of an accident. (Let's also not forget the word ACCIDENT).

Gun deaths are very different in that the people have made a choice that guns should be allowed even though they pose a risk.

People have done no such thing with terrorism. Nor is terrorism even slightly voluntary ont he victim side, nor can it be considered an accident.

You have a massive logic problem with your debating. You think if you throw out semi-related points it will defeat a pointed statement. The most accurate and convincing statement is worthless if it does not (let me bold this for you) ADDRESS THE POINT MADE.

The statements you make are not necessarily wrong, they are just massively irrelevant. Whether you like something has no bearing on what that thing is, nor does it always have any effect on whether that thing is proper or not.

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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 5th, 2013 @ 11:17 PM Reply

At 1/5/13 04:15 PM, Camarohusky wrote: That doesn't change anything.

I'm not disagreeing with your points Camaro, but it simply seems like morefngdbs just simply doesn't get it. He never really bothers with the factual details of the issue, and simply uses strawman logic and sensationalized material to justify his empty claims. Clearly, he knows nothing on how America works, or if he does, it's from a skewed, sensationalized vantage point that anyone with more than two brain cells can debunk.


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Response to Military detention of US citizens Jan. 6th, 2013 @ 07:42 PM Reply

At 1/5/13 11:17 PM, orangebomb wrote:
At 1/5/13 04:15 PM, Camarohusky wrote: That doesn't change anything.
I'm not disagreeing with your points Camaro,Clearly, he knows nothing on how America works,

;;;;
Perhaps It my point of view you are both incapable of grasping.
You have had your last 2 Presidents stand in front of the world & say just how important American Lives are.
How terrorism has to be fought & stopped (good fuckin' luck with that by the way ... if your war on drugs is anything to go by , You Are Fucked ! ! ! ! ! ! !)
How they will do whatever is necessary , because protecting American's is a top priority !

Yet you go through the farce of Iraq , where you take 4300+ DEAD Americans, & over 32000 wounded, all about American oil interests & nothing to do with terroism (terrorists were so fucking afraid of Saddamn , they never went anywhere near him )
All to supposedly (According to Georige Dubya) to fight the terrorists & in retaliation for the World trade attacks where 3000+ Americans died.

Makes nothing but sense to me (sarcasm) where you lose even more than you did in New York for yer Big Business Interests ...But lets pretend we don't know the truth & that really was to stop terroism. Does 42 hundred more dead & 30 THousand fucked up soldiers , does that seem like a fair trade off ?
PArticularly , when you have exactly the same problem ?

Does tens of billions of dollars spent to "protect Americans" from terror, with no proof & no indication of any other take down anywhere else in the world like the 9/11 incident make sense .
Yet you all brush off 60 thousand dead Americans each & every year since that date.
Isn't your Gov, mouth pieces still in front of the camera's spewing how committed they are to protecting Americans !
I personally can not see it .
I see rhetoric & hypocrasy, I see waste & absolutely nothing accomplished beyond raising the profit margin for very few Americans at the expense of the vast majority.
How many billions wasted ?
How many Americans dead in Afghanistan ?
I read that as of Jan 3 /13 over 3000 more dead Americans have died in Afghanistan.

So terrorists have killed 3000+ Americans in New York. you would be way better off letting the terrorists hang out in the wilds of Afghanistan & Pakistan. Bring your soldiers home & secure your borders . for every person killed by terrorists, you're so called leaders have killed more than 2 for every one the terrorists killed inthat initial attack.

In the same time, all that money spent of a world wide war machine, could have been spent in ways to cut the death tolls in gun crime & road fatalities.
You cut 25% of that & you would be so much further ahead in "Protecting American" Lives...yet neither of you 2 can seem to grasp that fact.

Guess that's my fault, your inability to see that simple truth !

You are accomplishing nothing, yet high fiving each other as your debt spirals ever further out of control.


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