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What is so bad about Socalism?

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Zolen
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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-24 08:16:54 Reply

At 12/22/12 07:28 AM, Cootie wrote: Socialism isn't a bad thing at all if it is implemented correctly. I believe in market socialism myself (socialism without a planned economy) and it seems like a good deal. Socialism wants economic power to be in the majority instead of a very small minority, and I do think that the workers should have a greater share of the profits that they make and should have more of a say in the matters of a business.

People have too many misconceptions about what socialism is. Socialism doesn't even state that "all people make the same money" like so many people claim. Doctors would still make more than the fry cook, but the difference is that the fry cook could work forty hours a week and still provide for his family.

Here is the thing, it becomes entirely based on what the government deems fair, I don't know if you know this but humans are easily corrupted by their very nature, and in many countrys' history you can easily find millions of examples of government officials outright screwing with laws that might have helped the countrys' stability, simply so that they could get a bigger chunk of cash, or so that they can make someone else look bad.

Capitalism for the most part removes political gain from the equation and while yes the rich folk might try to give themselves as much money as possible, they also happen to need to keep the company in question afloat and that means competing. As long as a monopoly is not formed, for the most part the economy stays stable for much longer. But there has never been a country in human history, with any form of economic stability that lasted more then 200 years before it at least hits a few near crashes. What happening now all over the world was going to happen eventually, this was no surprise and nothing really could have stopped it from happening to many countrys with their economy tied to each other, once one started to tip a bit to far all the others were dragged in.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-24 15:31:07 Reply

I can't believe that no one's touched on the fact that the United States has always had socialist aspects to it ever since its inception and especially after the New Deal.

I know that you all are focused on a completely abstract discussion of straw man ideas of socialism vs capitalism in this thread and no one will pay attention to a comment that actually speaks to reality, but anybody who is decrying socialism in this thread needs to get off of the Internet, first of all. Second, since most of you went to public schools and many of you probably attend community colleges, you need to give back all that knowledge you got from there also - paid for by taxpayers.

Also if your house has ever been on fire or you have ever been scared and called the police, you need to erase 911 from your phone as well and don't use it. And if you have borrowed any federal monies for your education, give those back, too.

Socialism has existed side by side with capitalism in the United States for years. It is ingrained into the fabric of the society.

Also, to those who say that socialism is an economic and not a political system, umm, socialism wouldn't work without the government having a monopoly on force aka political power. You can't separate the enforcement of socialism from the idea, because without enforcement on taxation, there is no socialism, which would mean anarchy in my view, or at best, organized crime cartels running the economy (I guess the government is kind of that way anyway).

Anyhow, you people on the extreme need to come on back to center, because you have used public resources and didn't even know it, socialist pig. LOL


no, really...DON'T CLICK THE PIC

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-24 16:31:09 Reply

At 12/24/12 03:31 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote: I can't believe that no one's touched on the fact that the United States has always had socialist aspects to it ever since its inception and especially after the New Deal.

The thing is that Socialism at the time of the creation of the US hadn't fully developed into a concrete philosophy. There were always government institutions before Socialism so I hate it when its used as a blanket term for institutions run by the government and given to everyone. For example, Public Schooling was part of Classical Republicanism because it was used as a way to improve the state as a whole i.e. the idea that the state had priority over the individual because while the individual may at best be there for a family the state is there for everyone. The line has to be drawn somewhere though, because I guess the intention has to be part of it. Whereas Socialism is all about creating equality Classical Republicanism is all about creating a strong state, thus while they may share aspects the intentions are quite different.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-24 19:56:36 Reply

The fact is this country is starting to get overrun by idiots who want their money handed to them instead of working for it. They want everything handed to them by the government. And the problem with that is, if the government is furnishing the people with money and everything else (complete socialism), they've got you by the balls. They can make you do anything they want or they can just cut you off.
So just stand up to the government you say? How? Most socialists are also liberals who want guns banned. And a full gun ban would come with full socialism.
Though some aspects are present in this country, full socialism has no place in it.


That's right I like guns and ponies. Problem cocksuckers?
Politically correct is anything that leftists believe.Politically incorrect is anything common sense. IMPEACH OBAMA.

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Warforger
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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-24 20:04:09 Reply

At 12/24/12 07:56 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: The fact is this country is starting to get overrun by idiots who want their money handed to them instead of working for it. They want everything handed to them by the government.

Repeating something over and over does not make it true or any less stupid.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-24 23:17:56 Reply

What kind of socialism is being talked about.

I won't even talk about a planned economy, regardless of how many additional pages of regulations get added on post industrial economies today, nobody really defends the idea of the government operating businesses. Socialism really should refer to and only to the planned economy since that was it's traditional definition. Republicans are going to turn themselves blue in the face and suffer from the boy-who-cried-wolf by calling various manifestations of the welfare state socialism.

So let's talk about those manifestations.

In the poor to rich wealth transfer, which is sometimes called Socialism. If the wealth transfers are narrow, concentrated, and targeted, you run the risk of creating an underclass. If the wealth transfers are broad to the point of encompassing a near majority or large plurality of society, you run the risk of creating a program that can never be reformed by voluntary political retrenchment.

In the Young to old wealth transfer [which is rather antithetical to the rich to poor transfer since old people are usually the wealthiest demographic in developed societies] is far worse than a rich to poor wealth transfer. You run the risk of depopulating your native population. State run old-age care replaces the role children traditionally played towards their parents with the cold impersonal love of the State. Young adults get hit with taxes which make it harder for them to raise their own kids, and the incentive for them to have children as a way to have them provisioned for in old age decreases. Therefore everyone has fewer children and in most developed countries with generous welfare states, You have greying populations, fewer young people supporting larger numbers of older people.


On a moving train there are no centrists, only radicals and reactionaries.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 03:04:42 Reply

Socialism isn't bad. Human greed and selfishness is. Socialism would work if people cared for others, but we dont. Thats why humanity deserves to be extinct.


CHECK MY BLOG, PENIS HELECOPTER ATTACKS RUSSIAN SPEECH!!
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Zolen
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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 05:44:10 Reply

At 12/25/12 03:04 AM, penis-plant wrote: Socialism isn't bad. Human greed and selfishness is. Socialism would work if people cared for others, but we dont. Thats why humanity deserves to be extinct.

That's rather dark for someone who is happily using human structures and technology....

Its not that every human is corrupt so much as, when someone tries to take advantage of the system instead of working with it, it can be harder to get them out. Imagine all those corrupt groups like gunk in the drain, most of the stuff that goes down there slides by smoothly and works as it should, but not all, and gradually that starts to plug the drain and mess everything up to much for the water to get through without a deep cleaning.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 09:15:46 Reply

At 12/21/12 06:26 PM, Warforger wrote: You don't even have to look at China or the USSR

In practice, neither was or have ever been socialist or communist.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 13:15:31 Reply

At 12/25/12 09:15 AM, BumFodder wrote: In practice, neither was or have ever been socialist or communist.

Depends on the interpretation. You could argue that because of the black market they weren't Socialist, but that would be like saying that one of the biggest industries in the US is marijuana, it's not exactly legal and it isn't counted in the GDP. Some have said that it was merely one monopoly over everything but I'm pretty sure that was the point. But basically, they were Socialist, the government had control over everything not even just industries, you couldn't even have a stamp club or a soccer team without it being part of the government. They weren't Communist since Communism was the end goal, but they were certainly Socialist.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 16:57:40 Reply

At 12/21/12 05:16 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote:
So correct if I'm wrong, but what is so bad about this concept?

The problem is, socialism promotes stealing from one group to prop up another, under threat of law.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 17:00:13 Reply

At 12/25/12 09:15 AM, BumFodder wrote: In practice, neither was or have ever been socialist or communist.

Well if you're looking at ACTUAL communism/socialism, you won't find it, because nobody wants to give up money and things to support others.

You can always look to the Amish. However, it works for them, because they make the choice to be there. They do not have a leader saying "do this or go to prison". They choose to do it.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 17:03:02 Reply

At 12/25/12 03:04 AM, penis-plant wrote: Socialism isn't bad. Human greed and selfishness is.

Actually human greed advances and, always has, the human race, since the beginning of time. The world needs more greed. Maybe then lazy welfare fucks would be more prone to getting a job and supporting themselves instead of selling themselves into slavery by the government and the rich.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-25 18:19:07 Reply

At 12/25/12 05:03 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 12/25/12 03:04 AM, penis-plant wrote: Socialism isn't bad. Human greed and selfishness is.
Actually human greed advances and, always has, the human race, since the beginning of time. The world needs more greed. Maybe then lazy welfare fucks would be more prone to getting a job and supporting themselves instead of selling themselves into slavery by the government and the rich.

You mean like Goldman Sachs, Bernie Madoff and pretty much those people who purposely crashed the economy while making away with millions are good for mankind. Oh and drug dealers are also advancing our society too then. Oh wht evil government.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-26 01:34:51 Reply

Socialism is anti-american and has been ruining countries for centuries.

~JohnFreedom


'In God we trust' U.S national motto
Beats

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-26 06:39:46 Reply

At 12/26/12 01:34 AM, JohnFreedom wrote: Socialism is anti-american and has been ruining countries for centuries.

~JohnFreedom

So I see youve made a new account

laughatyourfuneral
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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-26 19:24:03 Reply

i don wanna live in a country where big gov'ment says i cant use rocket launchers to protect my family


by all means... ask

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-26 21:29:08 Reply

At 12/25/12 05:03 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 12/25/12 03:04 AM, penis-plant wrote: Socialism isn't bad. Human greed and selfishness is.
Actually human greed advances and, always has, the human race, since the beginning of time. The world needs more greed. Maybe then lazy welfare fucks would be more prone to getting a job and supporting themselves instead of selling themselves into slavery by the government and the rich.

This entire argument is always the fallback for the DIY republican, and it's the worst one that could be used. The entire argument is based upon the notion that some professions are worth more than others.

If Lemonhead and his bunch had their way, the people making the most money would be the ones giving the least value to society. Athletes, pornstars, actors, financiers...oh wait...

Fact is that human greed needs to be curtailed because the fucking free market isn't the end all be all of everything, because if everyone is given a choice, they're going to choose porn and cheetos 99% of the time, not "intellectually stimulating entreprenuerialism" like these crazy republicans think.

Red states take in the most porn, by the way. LOL


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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-27 09:10:47 Reply

At 12/24/12 11:17 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: What kind of socialism is being talked about.

... nobody really defends the idea of the government operating businesses.

I would disagree, while don't hold that government should run every business, (almost) everyone agrees that some "businesses" should be run by the state; corrections, various insurance policies including things such as SSI , health insurance etc, and mineral extraction are commonly run by governments.

Socialism really should refer to and only to the planned economy since that was it's traditional definition.

Why? The term "planned economy" works perfectly well to describe planned economy, while no other term exists to describe collective control of business.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-27 11:29:14 Reply

At 12/25/12 06:19 PM, Warforger wrote: You mean like Goldman Sachs, Bernie Madoff and pretty much those people who purposely crashed the economy while making away with millions are good for mankind. Oh and drug dealers are also advancing our society too then. Oh wht evil government.

Bernie Madoff and Goldman Sachs were greedy, but stupid. True greed breeds innovation and economics...see Henry Ford, Howard Hughes, Bill Gates, etc. You're missing the difference between greed, and unchecked insanity.

The insanity, like you see with, say, the President's banking or insurance buddies, promotes nothing beneficial to society. THOSE people are socio-paths, fucking people over because they can get away with it...Bill Gates and entrepreneurs, who value a consumer/producer relationship, are not. They realize people want products produced because of their greed. So they make sure they use it properly.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-27 11:32:44 Reply

At 12/26/12 09:29 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote: This entire argument is always the fallback for the DIY republican, and it's the worst one that could be used. The entire argument is based upon the notion that some professions are worth more than others.

Some are. A heart surgeon or OB/GYN is certainly more important than a car wash worker.

If Lemonhead and his bunch had their way, the people making the most money would be the ones giving the least value to society. Athletes, pornstars, actors, financiers...oh wait...

Um, no. Not sure where you drew that conclusion from..

Fact is that human greed needs to be curtailed because the fucking free market isn't the end all be all of everything, because if everyone is given a choice, they're going to choose porn and cheetos 99% of the time, not "intellectually stimulating entreprenuerialism" like these crazy republicans think.

It IS/can be curtailed if the government allows it to be. The problem occurs when you have the government propping up and protecting the greed. Preventing you from keeping greed in check.

The free market keeps greed in check. The government certainly doesn't. Hell, The government GIVES FREE MONEY to them.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-28 05:35:25 Reply

Sweden and England nuff said ;)

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-28 11:03:11 Reply

At 12/27/12 11:29 AM, LemonCrush wrote: The insanity, like you see with, say, the President's banking or insurance buddies, promotes nothing beneficial to society. THOSE people are socio-paths, fucking people over because they can get away with it...Bill Gates and entrepreneurs, who value a consumer/producer relationship, are not. They realize people want products produced because of their greed. So they make sure they use it properly.

So basically what you're saying is that greed is not the lust for money but it's the attitude for a healthy consumer-producer relationship. Also Steve Jobs was pretty Psychopathic in his own sense, he had fathered a daughter with his girlfriend and refused to pay a cent for her and sought to get rid of her, this was also when he was worth millions of dollars.

Although I guess it's only the consumer-producer relationship that matters, the cheap labor in China isn't that important.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-28 11:22:08 Reply

At 12/24/12 08:04 PM, Warforger wrote:
Repeating something over and over does not make it true or any less stupid.

Except he's right.

Perfect example: Bank and auto bailouts

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-28 12:23:15 Reply

At 12/25/12 04:57 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 12/21/12 05:16 PM, GrizzlyOne wrote:
So correct if I'm wrong, but what is so bad about this concept?
The problem is, socialism promotes stealing from one group to prop up another, under threat of law.

;;;;
You wanna hear some true tales of stealing ?

You got about an hour to spend listeing to an American General who documented the Bullshit done to your country ...
Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCiylpzR60U


Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-28 12:53:43 Reply

At 12/28/12 11:22 AM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 12/24/12 08:04 PM, Warforger wrote:
Repeating something over and over does not make it true or any less stupid.
Except he's right.

Perfect example: Bank and auto bailouts

That's like not what he's talking about at all. Stuff like the bailouts and stimulus packages were all things the entire community of Economists universally agreed were necessary thus both Bush and Obama made them. What he's talking about though is the notion of there being lazy people on welfare who just take their welfare check and don't even try to go to work and the idea that welfare gives you too much money i.e. scapegoating people to blame on our budgetary problems. That's all rhetoric, actual statistics tend to paint a very different and contradictory reality but no matter what it doesn't seem to dispel this retarded notion.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-29 05:49:46 Reply

At 12/27/12 11:32 AM, LemonCrush wrote: The free market keeps greed in check.

I've always wondered what kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through in order to believe this.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-29 16:41:52 Reply

At 12/29/12 05:49 AM, Feoric wrote: I've always wondered what kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through in order to believe this.

I've always wondered what kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through to deny basic, documented, observable, historical fact.

The corporatism and economic issues associated with it, in the past century or so, were encouraged by social engineers in the government. The fact is, the government shields and protects those who line their pockets. The JP Morgans, the Rockefellars (sp?) or the world get special treatment. The rest of us eat shit.

If the average American had as much power or clout as major corporations, the nation would be a much better place.

It always cracks me up how quick democrats are willing to sell their ideals down the river at a moment's convnience. I remember during the Bush administration, how people were calling for Bush impeachment, because he came from oil money. How his own financial policy was set up to benefit corporations...and fuck everyone else.

And now all of that is okay, now that a democrat does the same EXACT thing. Tax cuts for the rich is evil and fascist...but giving billions to them. That' A-ok by democrats because it "saved jobs".

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-29 18:16:12 Reply

At 12/29/12 04:41 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 12/29/12 05:49 AM, Feoric wrote: I've always wondered what kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through in order to believe this.
I've always wondered what kind of mental gymnastics people have to go through to deny basic, documented, observable, historical fact.

You know like Goldman Sachs, Bernie Madoff or say every corrupt politician ever.

The corporatism and economic issues associated with it, in the past century or so, were encouraged by social engineers in the government. The fact is, the government shields and protects those who line their pockets. The JP Morgans, the Rockefellars (sp?) or the world get special treatment. The rest of us eat shit.

That would be true if it were like 1924, but we get Unemployment benefits we get Social Security Benefits we get Medicare benefits etc.

If the average American had as much power or clout as major corporations, the nation would be a much better place.

Oh god no, it would be the current situation with the Fiscal Cliff exponentially worse.

It always cracks me up how quick democrats are willing to sell their ideals down the river at a moment's convnience. I remember during the Bush administration, how people were calling for Bush impeachment, because he came from oil money. How his own financial policy was set up to benefit corporations...and fuck everyone else.

So would you say that the government is greedy? Going by that logic isn't this a good thing?

And now all of that is okay, now that a democrat does the same EXACT thing. Tax cuts for the rich is evil and fascist...but giving billions to them. That' A-ok by democrats because it "saved jobs".

Not the exact same thing, if Obama was doing that then he would win West Virginia by double digits (I mean, West Virgina is deep blue, nearly every politician there is a Democrat yet Obama had no chance of winning the state because of his position on coal).

Oh and corporations are not the same thing as wealthy people. This is a basic principle you learn in economics.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to What is so bad about Socalism? 2012-12-29 19:28:53 Reply

At 12/28/12 12:53 PM, Warforger wrote: That's like not what he's talking about at all. Stuff like the bailouts and stimulus packages were all things the entire community of Economists universally agreed were necessary thus both Bush and Obama made them. What he's talking about though is the notion of there being lazy people on welfare who just take their welfare check and don't even try to go to work and the idea that welfare gives you too much money i.e. scapegoating people to blame on our budgetary problems. That's all rhetoric, actual statistics tend to paint a very different and contradictory reality but no matter what it doesn't seem to dispel this retarded notion.

That's funny, I seem to recall the public up in arms over the Bush stimulus. However, unquestioned support when Obama does it. Can you explain that? How under [R] politicians corporate welfare and government-corporate relationship was evil, but under [D] politicians it's not only okay, but encouraged.

I tend to not believe in statistics. They're frequently skewed by those who benefit from them. However I have witnessed people on welfare or food stamps, not trying to find work, or taking despite having 2 jobs and enough money for video games and other expendable purchases. People will ALWAYS take free stuff. Always.