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Richard
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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 17:48:29 Reply

At 12/24/12 05:21 PM, Dr-Worm wrote:
At 12/24/12 03:57 PM, DickBuns wrote: What debunked talking points?
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people," "more guns/concealed carry are the only things that will keep us safe," "if you restrict guns, then only criminals will have them and it'll be more dangerous," "gun control advocates/liberals/Obama want to repeal the Second Amendment and take all guns away," "don't blame the guns, blame mental illness," "don't blame the guns, blame violent media," "don't blame the guns, blame..." etc etc etc...

"don't blame the guns, blame violent media,"
That's not a conservative talking point at all.

If anything
"BLAME GUNS AND VIOLENT MEDIA" is a liberal talking point.
"if you restrict guns, then only criminals will have them and it'll be more dangerous,"
How is this debunked when this is exactly the case in mexico? There is only one legal gunshop in all of mexico that only sells single shot rifles and shotguns and small caliber revolvers to civilians. Look at how many illegal assault rifles are killing the innocent.

Also, the UK violent crime rate shot up and is higher than even the US's after they restricted guns. Gee wonder why.

"gun control advocates/liberals/Obama want to repeal the Second Amendment and take all guns away,"
No one ever stated this in the thread.

"don't blame the guns, blame mental illness,"
Im sorry, could you explain how this has been debunked? Both Adam Lanza and Cho Seung Hui were obviously mentally ill. The latter having been to a hospital several times.

Thanks for showing us how ignorant you are on this subject bud.

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 17:49:55 Reply

At 12/24/12 05:21 PM, Dr-Worm wrote: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," "more guns/concealed carry are the only things that will keep us safe," "if you restrict guns, then only criminals will have them and it'll be more dangerous," "gun control advocates/liberals/Obama want to repeal the Second Amendment and take all guns away," "don't blame the guns, blame mental illness," "don't blame the guns, blame violent media," "don't blame the guns, blame..." etc etc etc...

People actually believe these things? Guns arent the only reason why people kill other people, but these are still pathetic arguments. Only in america is the appropriate phrase I suppose...

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 17:53:51 Reply

At 12/24/12 05:48 PM, DickBuns wrote: Also, the UK violent crime rate shot up and is higher than even the US's after they restricted guns. Gee wonder why.

lol if youre going to use statistics then atleast use ones that are true. The only reason why the violent crime statistics have ever went up is because the goverment changed the way they were counted which made the statistics quadruple. If youre going to use those statistics as fact then youre just a complete daily mail-tier retard.

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 18:04:49 Reply

guns should be outlawed


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 18:10:14 Reply

Nice job with the dead firemen America.


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 18:21:13 Reply

At 12/24/12 06:10 PM, Gagsy wrote: Nice job with the dead firemen America.

Nice job on the pointless snipe.

At 12/24/12 05:53 PM, BumFodder wrote: The only reason why the violent crime statistics have ever went up is because the goverment changed the way they were counted which made the statistics quadruple.

I'm sure you can back up your statement.

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 19:23:06 Reply

At 12/24/12 05:48 PM, DickBuns wrote: "don't blame the guns, blame violent media,"
That's not a conservative talking point at all.

The idea that media ought to be blamed instead of guns absolutely is. LaPierre explicitly said it in his speech. I'm not trying to make blanket statements about all conservatives here, that would be stupid. I'm pointing out the typical talking points we've seen specifically from hardcore gun advocates, and this is most certainly one of them.

"if you restrict guns, then only criminals will have them and it'll be more dangerous,"
How is this debunked when this is exactly the case in mexico?

You're saying it would be preferable and safer for drug cartels and civilians to be having pitched firefights in the streets all the time?

Whatever, Mexico is a terrible example to use because the government is hampered from properly implementing whatever gun control laws it has for reasons that are almost entirely unique to that country (and that certainly don't apply to America). Virtually every "first-world" nation, where organized crime doesn't constantly overwhelm law enforcement and the government, has stricter gun control laws than the U.S., and substantially lower rates of gun-related homicide.

"gun control advocates/liberals/Obama want to repeal the Second Amendment and take all guns away,"
No one ever stated this in the thread.

Really? Take another look at the third page. And beyond this thread, you can clearly see this kind of all-or-nothing attitude reflected in pro-gun arguments, especially by groups like the NRA.

"don't blame the guns, blame mental illness,"
Im sorry, could you explain how this has been debunked? Both Adam Lanza and Cho Seung Hui were obviously mentally ill. The latter having been to a hospital several times.

Again, it's the idea that we should be focusing on mental illness instead of gun control that pro-control people take issue with. Obviously improving how we deal with mental illness is important in its own right, and would certainly contribute to helping prevent future mass shootings, but by itself it's not nearly enough. Just like with healthy people, the overwhelming majority of mentally ill people are not violent.

Pro-gun people have been disproportionately talking about the mental illness issue to take the focus off guns and avoid talking about our gun problem.

Thanks for showing us how ignorant you are on this subject bud.

Nobody is saying that these things aren't problems, just that it's ridiculous to be saying that they're somehow more significant problems than the actual fucking weapons used to commit the actual fucking murders, and that we shouldn't even consider that something might be wrong there.

At 12/24/12 05:49 PM, BumFodder wrote: People actually believe these things?

Gun manufacturers pay a substantial amount of money to ensure that people do, yeah.


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 22:16:42 Reply

At 12/24/12 07:23 PM, Dr-Worm wrote: The idea that media ought to be blamed instead of guns absolutely is. LaPierre explicitly said it in his speech. I'm not trying to make blanket statements about all conservatives here, that would be stupid. I'm pointing out the typical talking points we've seen specifically from hardcore gun advocates, and this is most certainly one of them.

Did you believe one word that crazy retard said? Shifting the blame from guns and american culture to media that everyone views yet doesnt entice them to kill is incredibly absurd. Everyone knows the difference between reality and fiction, and if they dont theyre probably in an insitution.

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 22:52:26 Reply

At 12/24/12 10:16 PM, BumFodder wrote: Did you believe one word that crazy retard said? Shifting the blame from guns and american culture to media that everyone views yet doesnt entice them to kill is incredibly absurd. Everyone knows the difference between reality and fiction, and if they dont theyre probably in an insitution.

Lapierre had a point. the Media does portray firearms in a negative and misleading style and the fact mental health has been barely brought up by the Left who just say BLAME GUNS when they refuse to go to the core issues that cause it (Poverty, Education, Jobs, ETC) . hell the kids in columbine were bullied and had medication for anger management and depression Seung-Hui Cho was in and out of the hospital and on Prozac. and it with mental issues some people can't tell the difference between reality and fiction its a true fact.

of course blame guns and law abiding gun owners.


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-24 23:45:06 Reply

At 12/24/12 10:52 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Lapierre had a point. the Media does portray firearms in a negative and misleading style and the fact mental health has been barely brought up by the Left who just say BLAME GUNS when they refuse to go to the core issues that cause it (Poverty, Education, Jobs, ETC) . hell the kids in columbine were bullied and had medication for anger management and depression Seung-Hui Cho was in and out of the hospital and on Prozac. and it with mental issues some people can't tell the difference between reality and fiction its a true fact.

of course blame guns and law abiding gun owners.

People arent refusing to solve the core issues such as poverty, its just that those other causes are a lot harder and more indirect. More gun control would definitely bring shootings down, even just a tiny bit more gun control would. Stop acting as if its ban all guns vs no ban on guns and that people are blaming guns, theyre just trying to tackle one of the core causes that for some reason you seem to have forgotten (people being able to kill other people in seconds at all which happens with guns).

Can you name other ways which make it so easy to cause a massacre? Only ones I can think of is bombing but thats not exactly something you can do en masse with little knowledge; and stabbings, which would be incredibly hard.

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-25 00:00:06 Reply

At 12/24/12 07:23 PM, Dr-Worm wrote: The idea that media ought to be blamed instead of guns absolutely is. LaPierre explicitly said it in his speech. I'm not trying to make blanket statements about all conservatives here, that would be stupid. I'm pointing out the typical talking points we've seen specifically from hardcore gun advocates, and this is most certainly one of them.

I agree with him in that regard. A lot of these shooters want their names scarred into the history books, they want to go out in one final blaze of violence. They meticulously prepare for their spree. The Columbine kids spent a year preparing. We need to be thankful they did not dedicate their time to actually making working explosives, homebrew chemical weapons, or a DIY flamethrower (Which was used before to a high kill count, but we don't talk about that because it didn't involve scary guns.) We get rid of guns, they find another way, potentially more lethal. The media stops glorifying these fuckers and one of their motivations goes bye bye. There's no record for these scum to aim for. Nobody learns what the fuck it is their message was.

You're saying it would be preferable and safer for drug cartels and civilians to be having pitched firefights in the streets all the time?

Pitched firefights? That's a hell of a lot better instead of one of the groups being able to effortlessly gun down entire groups of police like has happened before.

Whatever, Mexico is a terrible example to use because the government is hampered from properly implementing whatever gun control laws it has for reasons that are almost entirely unique to that country (and that certainly don't apply to America). Virtually every "first-world" nation, where organized crime doesn't constantly overwhelm law enforcement and the government, has stricter gun control laws than the U.S., and substantially lower rates of gun-related homicide.

What is with the focus on gun related homicide and not overall homicide when talking about these bans?

Really? Take another look at the third page. And beyond this thread, you can clearly see this kind of all-or-nothing attitude reflected in pro-gun arguments, especially by groups like the NRA.

Uh, when people are advocating for the ban of purely cosmetic features or a very large majority of the firearms on the market, then yes, it is an all or nothing approach. Give an inch, and a mile is taken. People have numerously called for the bannings of semi-automatics, anything remotely military related, or anything that can hold high cap mags (That goes for basically 100% of all magazine fed weapons.)

Again, it's the idea that we should be focusing on mental illness instead of gun control that pro-control people take issue with. Obviously improving how we deal with mental illness is important in its own right, and would certainly contribute to helping prevent future mass shootings, but by itself it's not nearly enough. Just like with healthy people, the overwhelming majority of mentally ill people are not violent.

And like the majority of guns, they have absolutely no involvement in the propagation of crime or mass shootings.

Pro-gun people have been disproportionately talking about the mental illness issue to take the focus off guns and avoid talking about our gun problem.

Gun problem? We have 88 guns for every 100 people just about, yet we don't have a proportionally high amount of homicides+accidental gun deaths (I absolutely do not care for things like suicide) compared to countries with a lower per capita guns in circulation count.

Nobody is saying that these things aren't problems, just that it's ridiculous to be saying that they're somehow more significant problems than the actual fucking weapons used to commit the actual fucking murders, and that we shouldn't even consider that something might be wrong there.

You're right, the tools used is more important than solving underlying issues. That's why no mass shootings happened at all during the AWB, and why no massacres have ever occurred using anything other then guns, and that the highest kill counts for mass killings have all involved guns and not other items.


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-25 00:03:11 Reply

At 12/25/12 12:00 AM, RacistBassist wrote: You're right, the tools used is more important than solving underlying issues. That's why no mass shootings happened at all during the AWB, and why no massacres have ever occurred using anything other then guns, and that the highest kill counts for mass killings have all involved guns and not other items.

What other weapons have been used during mass killings then in the USA?

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-25 00:03:18 Reply

At 12/24/12 10:52 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Lapierre had a point. the Media does portray firearms in a negative and misleading style

Not at all what he was talking about, but way to blindly agree with that nutcase without even listening to what he said. He was talking about violence in media the same way Jack Thompson or parents' groups do. Which makes it pretty ironic when later on in his inane diatribe he goes on to say that "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." He actually said within mere minutes of condemning dangerous unrealistic Hollywood fantasies about gun violence. Amazing.

and the fact mental health has been barely brought up by the Left who just say BLAME GUNS when they refuse to go to the core issues that cause it (Poverty, Education, Jobs, ETC) .

Hahaha, okay. All of a sudden the right cares about poverty and education when the alternative is talking about the possibility of losing some of their favorite toys. Look, all of these things are contributing factors, nobody's arguing against that. But it's downright insane to be talking about everything but guns in a discussion about gun violence.

But anyway, how in the hell has mental health "barely been brought up?" It's brought up constantly by both sides. The difference is that pro-control people talk about it in addition to gun control, while anti-control people talk about it exclusively to avoid talking about guns.


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-25 00:09:44 Reply

At 12/25/12 12:03 AM, Dr-Worm wrote: Hahaha, okay. All of a sudden the right cares about poverty and education when the alternative is talking about the possibility of losing some of their favorite toys. Look, all of these things are contributing factors, nobody's arguing against that. But it's downright insane to be talking about everything but guns in a discussion about gun violence.

All of a sudden only the right thinks Americans should have their basic rights, and that the conversation is about gun violence and not preventing school massacres.

At 12/25/12 12:03 AM, BumFodder wrote: What other weapons have been used during mass killings then in the USA?

A DIY flamethrower that was thrown together and it either had one more or one less fatality compared to Columbine, numerous explosives (Columbine would have been a lot worse had they spent more time dedicated to making their explosives work and not misfire, not to mention the deadliest mass killing (Including number of school children) used explosives, alongside the deadliest school massacre)


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-25 00:30:16 Reply

At 12/25/12 12:09 AM, RacistBassist wrote:
At 12/25/12 12:03 AM, BumFodder wrote: What other weapons have been used during mass killings then in the USA?
A DIY flamethrower that was thrown together and it either had one more or one less fatality compared to Columbine, numerous explosives (Columbine would have been a lot worse had they spent more time dedicated to making their explosives work and not misfire, not to mention the deadliest mass killing (Including number of school children) used explosives, alongside the deadliest school massacre)

Thats not very many massacres compared to guns. Plus they were far harder to put together, judging from how little thought some of these gun shooters have put into their shootings Im pretty sure very few of them would have gone to the trouble of making explosives and flamethrowers without killing themselves.

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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-25 00:48:04 Reply

At 12/25/12 12:00 AM, RacistBassist wrote: I agree with him in that regard. The media stops glorifying these fuckers and one of their motivations goes bye bye. There's no record for these scum to aim for. Nobody learns what the fuck it is their message was.

Yeah, I agree with this too, but that's not what LaPierre was talking about. He was talking about the prevalence of violence in video games and movies and whatnot, same old paranoid PTA shit that's been all but debunked by the research.

Pitched firefights? That's a hell of a lot better instead of one of the groups being able to effortlessly gun down entire groups of police like has happened before.

As much as I would like to live in your cowboy fantasy land, here in the real world more bullets flying equals more collateral damage.

What is with the focus on gun related homicide and not overall homicide when talking about these bans?

Gee I dunno, maybe because we're arguing about fucking gun control and how to go about preventing more mass shootings?

Give an inch, and a mile is taken.

That's exactly the bullshit extreme rhetoric I'm talking about. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the government would ever remove the right to bear arms entirely, but the NRA positions everything that way to justify fighting against every single little regulation.

People have numerously called for the bannings of semi-automatics, anything remotely military related, or anything that can hold high cap mags (That goes for basically 100% of all magazine fed weapons.)

Please explain to me why a private citizen needs any of those things.

And like the majority of guns, they have absolutely no involvement in the propagation of crime or mass shootings.

Maybe not, but they are specifically created to be used as tools of killing. And you can't seriously be equating regulating the sale of inanimate objects with adequately dealing with the incredibly complex psychological issues of actual human beings.

And again, here you are pushing the argument into ridiculous either-or territory. See below.

Gun problem? We have 88 guns for every 100 people just about, yet we don't have a proportionally high amount of homicides+accidental gun deaths (I absolutely do not care for things like suicide) compared to countries with a lower per capita guns in circulation count.

What you're saying here is patently false. And while we're at it, where there are more guns, there tends to be more homicide.

You're right, the tools used is more important than solving underlying issues.

It's not like we have to choose between mental health reform and gun control. We can do both at the same time, and work on other issues too. In fact that's exactly what we're trying to do. And just because increased gun control won't stop all murder, or even all gun-related murder, doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile pursuit. This whole all-or-nothing false dichotomy is utter nonsense that pro-gun types spout to avoid actually dealing with the issue at hand.

All of a sudden only the right thinks Americans should have their basic rights, and that the conversation is about gun violence and not preventing school massacres.

Denying a relation between preventing school massacres and preventing gun violence requires a superhuman level of mental gymnastics that no sane person could possibly hope or want to achieve.

A DIY flamethrower that was thrown together

Oh hey wait a minute guys there was this one time that a different weapon was used so I guess we should just completely ignore all the other school shootings because talking about regulating guns makes some people a little upset.


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Response to Guns pulled from store shelves 2012-12-25 02:09:05 Reply

At 12/25/12 12:48 AM, Dr-Worm wrote: As much as I would like to live in your cowboy fantasy land, here in the real world more bullets flying equals more collateral damage.

I can't find a link right now, but there was an incident involving the cartel that gunned a massive number of people, leaving not one survivor. Pitched firefights rarely ever happen when guns are pulled. Sure, if we're dealing with things such as organized gangs trying to kill every mother fucker in the building, they'll be dedicated to the cause. But the moment a gun is pulled, a majority criminals go straight into get the fuck out of here mode. It truly is a sight to see. Something as simple as flashing a gun makes people back the fuck up, let alone pulling one or actually engaging into a shootout.

I have a question, how many innocent bystanders have been hit by the CPL holder shooting? Not cops, not criminals, but the law abiding civilians with their concealed carry going on.

Gee I dunno, maybe because we're arguing about fucking gun control and how to go about preventing more mass shootings?

So getting shot is a more morally heinous crime then being beat to death? People talk about gun related homicides in a different category then all other homicides like it makes a difference in the end. This is going to sound absolutely cold hearted, but those lives lost in the massacres do not outweigh those saved by firearms in defense.

That's exactly the bullshit extreme rhetoric I'm talking about. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the government would ever remove the right to bear arms entirely, but the NRA positions everything that way to justify fighting against every single little regulation.

You don't see how the addition of purely cosmetic features, or personal preference features, to a ban list is a horrible precedent to set in regards to "assault" weapons? The guns are black most of the time, look scary, and have that whole tactical military look to it. But that's just it, it all comes down to look. This extended magazine bullshit is just that, bullshit. Not only are they more prone to jamming, but do you know how long it actually takes to reload? Reloading and firing 3 10 round mags at the same pace as you firing 1 30 round mag ends up with a the difference being a couple of seconds. Shit, we already have a large amount of people calling for the banning of every single semi-automatic weapon there is. That is what I'm worried about.

People have numerously called for the bannings of semi-automatics, anything remotely military related, or anything that can hold high cap mags (That goes for basically 100% of all magazine fed weapons.)
Please explain to me why a private citizen needs any of those things.

Well shit, if I need to use a firearm in the middle of the night, I really hope I don't have to try to fumble around with breech loaded or bolt action, or have a bunch of people with one in the chamber ready to roll at all the times. Semi auto, flick a switch, pull the slide back and you're ready to go at a moments notice. All the other ones? The weapons are either already hot, or you need to have a lot more dexterity to pull off quickly, especially in the dark.

Besides, need is not relevant when discussing whether or not something should be banned. That's why we allow cars that can hit speed limits far beyond any speed limit in the US. It's why we allow people to eat whatever the fuck they feel like instead of a simple 2000 calories diet that gets everything the body needs. We ban 30 round magazines, they can easily justify the banning of 10, or even 5. If there is actually a concrete reason to ban something, barring emotional knee jerk reactions to tragedies, then sure, I will gladly feel free to discuss the finer points of all of these things further.

Maybe not, but they are specifically created to be used as tools of killing. And you can't seriously be equating regulating the sale of inanimate objects with adequately dealing with the incredibly complex psychological issues of actual human beings.

You're right, one is easy and wouldn't actually solve anything long term on a meaningful level besides the outlier incidents from occurring, while the other will be a difficult and expensive task that would actually see some improvement. Let's go with the easy one.

What you're saying here is patently false. And while we're at it, where there are more guns, there tends to be more homicide.

What did I say that was wrong? 88 guns per 100 people. That is easily verifiable. We are the most armed country in the world. Compare other countries firearms data. The homicide rate vs firearms rate has little correlation at all in the developed world.

It's not like we have to choose between mental health reform and gun control. We can do both at the same time, and work on other issues too. In fact that's exactly what we're trying to do. And just because increased gun control won't stop all murder, or even all gun-related murder, doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile pursuit. This whole all-or-nothing false dichotomy is utter nonsense that pro-gun types spout to avoid actually dealing with the issue at hand.

There is absolutely zero reason to pursue the levels of gun control being suggested though. Background checks on private sales? Sure. Firearm registration? Sure. But things like waiting periods and the banning of spooky features is just downright feel good laws being put on the books that do nothing but restrict rights.

Denying a relation between preventing school massacres and preventing gun violence requires a superhuman level of mental gymnastics that no sane person could possibly hope or want to achieve.

Look up the deadliest school massacre. Look up the deadliest mass killings. None of them involved firearms, at all. Would the frequency of these attacks go down? Probably. But do the lives of a bulk of people in one potential incident outweigh the lives of a bulk of people over time in a guaranteed incident if they were to be disarmed? Murders happen. It is a sad fact of life. Guns have no correlation for that, or else our rates would be a on a rise to go along with the whole record breaking amount of guns being sold and all of that jazz.

Oh hey wait a minute guys there was this one time that a different weapon was used so I guess we should just completely ignore all the other school shootings because talking about regulating guns makes some people a little upset.

1 person, or if you want to stretch it further, the 12,000 or so homicides (Assuming not by the same person, and using a different gun each time), out of the 270 million firearms in the US. That's what, 1 in every 20,000+? Better go ahead and punish those other 20,000 for the actions of 1.


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