Be a Supporter!

Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra

  • 1,532 Views
  • 27 Replies
New Topic Respond to this Topic
deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 04:16 AM Reply

Composers that compose music film, video game, and other media, there is always a need to create âEUoemock-upâEU productions of our compositions. A mock-up in this case is a production using instrumental sample libraries, and/or synthesized instruments as opposed to using live musicians. Sample libraries are created using live players and can give a sequenced production using MIDI data a realistic sound. Most of the time there is basically no budget to hire a real live orchestra, so this is the next best thing. Sample libraries these days have become pretty advanced these days and can fool just about anyone into believing it was a live orchestra or group of players.

In my personal experience I have had several chances to hear live performances of my compositions but recently IâEUTMve finally had the chance to stand in front of large orchestras in a professional orchestral recording studio stage.

I always make mock-up productions first. Doing this is good practice for film and game composers as it allows us to show our work to the director/producer for constructive feedback before we set it in stone by recording a live orchestra. Live orchestra or mock-up, either can work when produced well. Ideally weâEUTMd all want to have real players, but that can be extremely costly.

I know those of us who use orchestral sample libraries like EWQL, Vienna, LA Scoring Strings dream of having our music played but there can be some huge downsides for some of us like;

-Finding (good) players.
-Having access to a studio/having recording equipment.
-Lack of knowledge in orchestration and the ability to notate the music from your sequence.

...Which is why we use them, and there's nothing wrong with that! As long as it sounds good to you, and possibly a client that's all that matters right? Also good music is good music, sometimes we just have to see past the amazing sound of General MIDI ;D

I won't post examples just yet as that would probably be advertising, but what do you guys think some pros/cons are?


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
BrokenDeck
BrokenDeck
  • Member since: Jun. 7, 2003
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 39
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 04:39 AM Reply

I assign different instrument sections of the orchestra to my MIDI keyboard and away I go...

pdbq
pdbq
  • Member since: Dec. 20, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 01
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 04:47 AM Reply

I would consider the Digital Mockup analogous to sketching out scenes for a film in preparation for the actual filming. Listening to and appreciating the way each player has honed the technique of each instrument, the various defects and limits to each device, and the subtleties of the way an orchestra works as a group are much more important than the basic rhythm and structures afforded by household computers.

Maybe computers will someday outplay an orchestra? However profound the computing power necessary to simulate the same emotion in a piece, I believe that day is still yet to come.

deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 05:50 AM Reply

At 12/20/12 04:47 AM, pdbq wrote: I would consider the Digital Mockup analogous to sketching out scenes for a film in preparation for the actual filming. Listening to and appreciating the way each player has honed the technique of each instrument, the various defects and limits to each device, and the subtleties of the way an orchestra works as a group are much more important than the basic rhythm and structures afforded by household computers.

Maybe computers will someday outplay an orchestra? However profound the computing power necessary to simulate the same emotion in a piece, I believe that day is still yet to come.

I think computers are more than capable of getting that same sound, but it would require hundreds of hours of work, and an insane amount of power from the computer, but I don't think they can "outplay" the true sound of an orchestra made up of real players.

Also, if we're talking about production for commercial media here, then the recording quality really matters a lot. If you can't really record your live ensemble that well, then samples are better.

I have examples of two studio recordings of a live ensemble on my NG page, but on my website I have a direct comparison of samples vs real players.

The first track "Tropic Strike" is a mix of both samples and live instruments working together.
The second track "Leap into Eternity" shows a strict comparison of only samples vs only live instruments

http://www.matthewpablo.com/archives/new-live-film-scoring-o rchestra-recordings-12-20-12

Avid Pro Tools 10 session for "Tropic Strike" --->

Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
Step
Step
  • Member since: Nov. 4, 2007
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 25
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 07:16 AM Reply

Long post incoming.

Frankly, mock-up VSTs like East/West Symphonic Orchestra and Symphobia are so authentic and realistic that while they will never ever beat the realism of a real orchestra, they are far more practical and useful in today's world, and sound-wise can beat an orchestra quite easily, in the hands of a skilled producer. I'm saying this after having heard music that was made with VSTs and music that was played by a real orchestra. I've noticed that the VST music can often achieve so much more power and clarity than a real orchestra, since there are so many more factors to consider in a real orchestra.

Microphone positions, costs, the skill of each and every player, mistakes during performances, recording issues, amount of instruments you can incorporate, etc... when making digital orchestral music you can load up as many instruments as you want, and you have total control over the sound of each instrument. Often, with digital orchestral music I feel a lot more oomph in the drums, warmth in the strings, brightness in the woodwinds, and power in the brass. Let's not forget the limitations of each physical instrument and each player too. I've made piano solos that are impossible to play without three hands and they still sound great; I'd have more limitations if I were recording an actual pianist.

However, that doesn't mean music by an actual orchestra doesn't have its own merits. It's going to take a hell of a long time for computerised orchestras to even begin to match the expression of a real orchestra. In more expressive tracks, I think an actual orchestra will beat a computerised one, which is why Jazz, one of the most expressive genres out there, almost always sounds so much better with real instruments than computerised ones. Let's not forget that there are some things that digital orchestras can't replicate as well as the real thing either, like choir (provided the choir singers are actually good and the recording environment is adequate).

Lastly, pieces played by actual orchestras often have more personality to them. In the end, there's a limit to how many samples you can load for each instrument in orchestra VSTs. Taking a harp... in East/West there could be 8 samples (just throwing a number at random) for each note of the harp, which would be maybe 2 variations for each of 4 velocity layers (for example pianissimo, mezzo piano, mezzo forte and fortissimo). A real harp can produce an infinite amount of different sounds from one string, depending on how it's plucked, and that can make a big difference to the sound and personality of a piece.

So yeah, each have their own advantages and disadvantages, and each offer totally different experiences (in fact it's a silly dream of mine to get one of my orchestral tracks played by an actual orchestra one time in my life) but I think that computerised orchestras are far more practical and all-out better in most situations. This is coming from someone who never heard an orchestra live, though.


Review Request Club | PLEASE GIVE ME FEEDBACK ON THIS I BEG YOU | Formerly Supersteph54
I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for any Audio Portal-related help.

BBS Signature
MetalRenard
MetalRenard
  • Member since: Sep. 19, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 07:21 AM Reply

I think a very strong argument can be made both ways, but let's face it, both can make spectacular results, both need a lot of money (but virtual is cheaper over all) and both need talent.
You need a variety of plugins working together to get that real orchestral feel but it will cost you less at the end, than hiring an orchestra, a hall and buying all the necessary equipment to record them.

Concerning TropicStrike - I had a listen, nice real orchestra there, though nothing you can't do to the same standard with VSTis, even the way the strings sound can be done. Have you tried LASS? This joins up with what I said about needing money. You can't compare just EWQL plugins to an orchestra, you'd need to have ALL of the plugins from ALL of the big names out there (and the small names too - Shoutout to Embertone!) to have a real comparison. Only a few people I know of actually have that kind of gear. Sadly when you get to that level, you rarely have the time to actually work on the details (especially if you write for TV and not films), so all your work turns to an endless drone.

It's the thee combined: Money, time and talent!


Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Come check me out!
Veteran REAPER user.

sorohanro
sorohanro
  • Member since: Jul. 9, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 28
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 07:35 AM Reply

Most of the pro and cons were covered already by people with better English skills (and composing skills, but please don't tell anyone), so, my only input to this subject is this:

Our brains are automatically searching for human elements. We see faces in inanimate objects, we automatically search for eyes in a photo, we listen to voice and we make up words even when those doesn't really exist (Ae Aia perceived as Ave Maria).
Similar in a mix, we search for the human element, a voice or a very humanly played instrument. If you have in a mix sticking out a human element, then for the rest of the background you may get away with VSTi mockups.

deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 10:20 AM Reply

At 12/20/12 07:16 AM, Step wrote: Long post goes here

Some very good points step, I've listened to a lot of your work before and you are very diligent at making your EWQL sample libraries sounding realistic. Your automation is really well crafted and it shows in your tracks. I think there are many opportunities to hearing your music performed by a live ensemble. Many high schools/middle schools and community orchestras sometimes like to perform works from local aspiring composers. Maybe you can shoot an e-mail to a local high school or community orchestra director to see if you can have something performed. Also small ensembles are great too, you can easily record that if you have friends who play instruments.

I hope you'll get to have your compositions played by a live group one day. It is a very rewarding experience! My first time I heard an orchestra play one of my compositions was when I was in middle school. The chamber string ensemble played a simple piece I wrote.

At 12/20/12 07:21 AM, MetalRenard wrote: Have you tried LASS? This joins up with what I said about needing money. You can't compare just EWQL plugins to an orchestra, you'd need to have ALL of the plugins from ALL of the big names out there (and the small names too - Shoutout to Embertone!) to have a real comparison. Only a few people I know of actually have that kind of gear. Sadly when you get to that level, you rarely have the time to actually work on the details (especially if you write for TV and not films), so all your work turns to an endless drone.

It's the thee combined: Money, time and talent!

It's funny you mention that because before I had the recording, LASS is what used to be there before real players took over. It's probably one of the best strings library I've ever used. It is REALLY convincing and the new version is amazing. Even the aleatoric samples are great, since you can automate them. I don't think I've seen any library do that with aleatoric samples.

Anyways here's a list of everything I currently have and use:

http://matthewpablo.com/software-hardware
Thanks for listening to the tracks!

What did you think of the other one you didn't mention?


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 26
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 12:09 PM Reply

Can a computer outplay a real orchestra? That depends on how you look at it. Something that's fake can never sound more realistic than the real thing. Some VSTs sound extremely realistic, but they can only be "as realistic" at best. In terms of performance a mock up could outplay an orchestra. You will use the human touch of a real orchestra which is a shame, but there are ways to simulate emotional ways of playing as well. (legato, vibration, velocity, tempo, swells, etc) Computer instruments never make any mistakes (out of their own). You have much more control over them. You can endlessly polish up the performance. You don't have to deal with real people, what their skills are, how much time they have. You don't have to hassle with microphone placement. Overall a real orchestra is more expensive that VST instruments.

I don't think I've said much new here. Sorry about that. Just summing things up.

One thing I think is interesting: most people only use VST orchestras as simulation of a real one, while there are things you could only do with a VST.

At 12/20/12 07:16 AM, Step wrote:

:I've made piano solos that are impossible to play without three hands

These are the things I'm talking about. If you want to simulate real instruments, I'd avoid such things, but you can cross the line and go crazy. Make computer music that isn't a simulation of real music, but is good sounding music in its own right.

Another thing

At 12/20/12 04:47 AM, pdbq wrote: I would consider the Digital Mockup analogous to sketching out scenes for a film in preparation for the actual filming.

That's how mock-ups could be used. But you can do so much more. If you plan on recording a song with a real orchestra you'd first have to compose it yes. You can also use a computer to hear how it will sound. But to make a computer orchestra sound realistic takes hours (days even). I wouldn't waste that much time on something no one will ever hear. If you don't plan on recording it with an orchestra however, I would spend much time to make the mock up sound good and realistic. You could say it's a difference between drawing a story board for a life action film on one hand, or are drawing an actual animated film on the other.


BBS Signature
dem0lecule
dem0lecule
  • Member since: Feb. 17, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Blank Slate
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 12:56 PM Reply

Personally I think the tools may not be the main thing for realistic orchestra sounding. In fact I don't think what tool you use matter much.

It's all about how the final render sounds like human-made. Imperfect. Basic concepts like unbalanced velocity, tension, level, attack and release of thing such as note/melody are main factors.

Just my small opinion.


What comes around goes around...

BBS Signature
MetalRenard
MetalRenard
  • Member since: Sep. 19, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 12:59 PM Reply

At 12/20/12 10:20 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: Anyways here's a list of everything I currently have and use:

http://matthewpablo.com/software-hardware
Thanks for listening to the tracks!

What did you think of the other one you didn't mention?

Damn you have a lot of goodies. *drools* I'm in the process of saving up for a high performance PC and I'm stuck with Komplete 8 (can't knock it, for what it costs it's amazing, but it won't ever replace EWQL or LASS and Cinesamples).

Maybe the issue is learning more about what your tools are capable of and in depth midi editing, or finding which patch covers the sound you want more + which velocity hits the tone you want. Perhaps comparing a real orchestra to VSTis has become obsolete altogether! Their both good for different things as many have said and both have their place in modern musical production -at all levels-.


Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Come check me out!
Veteran REAPER user.

MetalRenard
MetalRenard
  • Member since: Sep. 19, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 01:01 PM Reply

At 12/20/12 12:59 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Their both good

Oh wow, I wrote "their" instead of "they're". What a fail. Sorry, lots on my mind, mixing my album at the moment. -_-


Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Come check me out!
Veteran REAPER user.

deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 02:27 PM Reply

At 12/20/12 12:59 PM, MetalRenard wrote:
Maybe the issue is learning more about what your tools are capable of and in depth midi editing, or finding which patch covers the sound you want more + which velocity hits the tone you want. Perhaps comparing a real orchestra to VSTis has become obsolete altogether! Their both good for different things as many have said and both have their place in modern musical production -at all levels-.

Well I never really have "issues" these days, it's just now I finally have studio recordings of live orchestras AND mockup versions to compare them to, and it makes for a great discussion :]


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
Breed
Breed
  • Member since: Mar. 23, 2009
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 11
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 04:01 PM Reply

I agree with a lot of people on most of the points made here so I will try to add something new here. I just want to expand on the financial side of a live orchestra. The budget for a truely represented piece of art is uncanning. The scores you hear in "A" level hollywood budget pieces is still rather impersonal most of the time. You don't hear the same level of emotion as you would an equally talented orchestra that has been both playing together a long time and practicing said piece a long time. You mostly only hear that with high end orchestras such as the chicago symphony, new york philharmonic, london symphony, vienna symphony, etc...on classical pieces they rehearsed the whole year together. In a hollywood scenario, you have individually contracted players most of the time, and maybe a few practices with them seeing as they get paid by the hour and practice cost just as much as recording in terms of paying players. Granted, in a classical scenario you don't see nearly the same recording quality as you do when working with academy award winning mixers and engineers.

So in retrospect, if you really wanted a true emotional live performance with a hollywood budget mix, you are talking about 8-10 times the cost any hollywood movie has probably ever paid. Upwards to a couple million dollars for a single album worth of music. Or about a million for one song.

So side by side,

Samplers these days are created by these same hollywood level of professionals in terms of mixing/recording, so there's possibility of ideal production. So the value of that is unparalleled.

Live performance has the possibility of infinitely more nuances of emotion, and so that value is unparalled.

But you'll never get the ideal of both =P

So just strive to get the best results with whatever you have =)

BrokenDeck
BrokenDeck
  • Member since: Jun. 7, 2003
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 39
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 04:13 PM Reply

The biggest advantage of .vsts over real instruments is time.

With a .vst / MIDI keyboard setup, you can demonstrate your ideas next to instantly to inquiring clientele, and they can give on-the-fly feedback as to the style and feel of the soundtrack that they are looking for.

With chat programs such as Skype, live demos vs. instant feedback really helps with efficiency.

SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 26
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 07:11 PM Reply

At 12/20/12 01:01 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Oh wow, I wrote "their" instead of "they're". What a fail. Sorry, lots on my mind, mixing my album at the moment. -_-

Doesn't matter. As long as we know what you mean. Good luck with mixing your album.

Btw I forgot to mention this. You can of course also combine life orchestra with mock-ups. The mock-ups can play the parts that are impossible to play for a life orchestra, and the live orchestra plays the emotional parts that require a human touch. Just like they do with films, with expensive actors for the emotional acting, stunt doubles and CGI for the stunts.


BBS Signature
MetalRenard
MetalRenard
  • Member since: Sep. 19, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 07:25 PM Reply

At 12/20/12 07:11 PM, SourJovis wrote: Just like they do with films, with expensive actors for the emotional acting, stunt doubles and CGI for the stunts.

Actually they already do this with film music anyway. Hans Zimmer does that.


Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Come check me out!
Veteran REAPER user.

SourJovis
SourJovis
  • Member since: Aug. 14, 2012
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 26
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 20th, 2012 @ 08:35 PM Reply

At 12/20/12 07:25 PM, MetalRenard wrote: Actually they already do this with film music anyway. Hans Zimmer does that.

Didn't expect to be the first to come up with it anyway.


BBS Signature
Back-From-Purgatory
Back-From-Purgatory
  • Member since: Dec. 11, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 33
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 21st, 2012 @ 02:46 AM Reply

I'm unlocking this under the condition that the discussion will continue, but the shameless plugging will not.

Carry on!


Audio/BBS Mod
News: I want to write more metal... - Music: The Inevitability - Art: Kira
\/\/\/ Click the sig for fun times! \/\/\/

BBS Signature
sorohanro
sorohanro
  • Member since: Jul. 9, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 28
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 21st, 2012 @ 08:57 AM Reply

Live instruments + VSTi I think is the most affordable and has the possibility to take the best of both worlds, especially when you are on a smaller budget than Hollywood blockbusters.

Everybody can drop now a guitar, a wind/ brass instrument or even a section, or a solo voice on top of a track.

I usually put my trumpet as a solo instrument or as a brass section. Sometimes I pitch down one octave to get a trombone section. Live I do that with a harmonizer pedal and on projects I use Melodyne, but before I could afford it I was using Octaver 12B.
Also, another way to "humanize" a track is to add some live percussion elements. Nothing too fancy or complicated, some shakers, bongos or even claps.
There is a nice tutorial/ article about live strings + VSTi strings HERE.

deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 21st, 2012 @ 03:21 PM Reply

At 12/21/12 08:57 AM, sorohanro wrote: Live instruments + VSTi I think is the most affordable and has the possibility to take the best of both worlds, especially when you are on a smaller budget than Hollywood blockbusters.

Everybody can drop now a guitar, a wind/ brass instrument or even a section, or a solo voice on top of a track.

I usually put my trumpet as a solo instrument or as a brass section. Sometimes I pitch down one octave to get a trombone section. Live I do that with a harmonizer pedal and on projects I use Melodyne, but before I could afford it I was using Octaver 12B.
Also, another way to "humanize" a track is to add some live percussion elements. Nothing too fancy or complicated, some shakers, bongos or even claps.
There is a nice tutorial/ article about live strings + VSTi strings HERE.

Does dropping the trumpet down result in a good sound? I've tried dropping some cello recordings down to get a bass sound, and also violins. Doesn't sound that great.

Do you have an example of what your trumpet sounds like when re-pitched?

Good article btw


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
sorohanro
sorohanro
  • Member since: Jul. 9, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 28
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 21st, 2012 @ 08:32 PM Reply

At 12/21/12 03:21 PM, deadlyfishes wrote: Does dropping the trumpet down result in a good sound? I've tried dropping some cello recordings down to get a bass sound, and also violins. Doesn't sound that great.

Do you have an example of what your trumpet sounds like when re-pitched?

Well, not always sounds really good, it has less "body" than a real trombone, but phrasing, legatos, glissando and all this stuff sounds more natural and realistic. In a solo instrument might be obvious but in a brass pack it might get covered in the mix.

Here, the wah-wah trombones are actually played one octave upper by me on trumpet with a wah mute:
http://soundcloud.com/mihai-sorohan/washing-tune
I erased some of my old tracks where I used that, but here is a sample pack made by me (feel free to use, but it's a bit old and might be a bit cheesy) and all trombones are actually my trumpet pitched (with the free plugin):
http://audio.tutsplus.com/freebies/samples/mihais-jazz-brass -sample-pack-in-c/
Oh, almost forgot this, all the brass section is actually 2 trumpet lines, each trumpet with an octaver on send panned on the opposite side (trumpet 1 Left+octaver send on Right, trumpet 2 Right+octaver send on Left). I found that if you pan to the same side it might get a "phasey" sort of sound.

  • The Real Folk Blues
    The Real Folk Blues by Sapphire

    My english cover of the Cowboy Bebop ED Song.

    Score
    4.60 / 5.00
    Type
    Song
    Genre
    Blues
    Popularity
    6,899 Views

deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 22nd, 2012 @ 05:21 PM Reply

At 12/21/12 08:32 PM, sorohanro wrote:
At 12/21/12 03:21 PM, deadlyfishes wrote: Does dropping the trumpet down result in a good sound? I've tried dropping some cello recordings down to get a bass sound, and also violins. Doesn't sound that great.

Do you have an example of what your trumpet sounds like when re-pitched?
Well, not always sounds really good, it has less "body" than a real trombone, but phrasing, legatos, glissando and all this stuff sounds more natural and realistic. In a solo instrument might be obvious but in a brass pack it might get covered in the mix.

Here, the wah-wah trombones are actually played one octave upper by me on trumpet with a wah mute:
http://soundcloud.com/mihai-sorohan/washing-tune
I erased some of my old tracks where I used that, but here is a sample pack made by me (feel free to use, but it's a bit old and might be a bit cheesy) and all trombones are actually my trumpet pitched (with the free plugin):
http://audio.tutsplus.com/freebies/samples/mihais-jazz-brass -sample-pack-in-c/
Oh, almost forgot this, all the brass section is actually 2 trumpet lines, each trumpet with an octaver on send panned on the opposite side (trumpet 1 Left+octaver send on Right, trumpet 2 Right+octaver send on Left). I found that if you pan to the same side it might get a "phasey" sort of sound.
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/473602

That's a nice song! I find real brass instruments are hard to mix in a song like this. Not too bright, but pronounced, well mixed with the band... That's difficult to do. Some mainstream bands still have problems with it today... Anyways, it's well done and I think the octataver sounds fine :)

I have some examples of a live band vs sampled band, I might post up some preview files or something


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
sorohanro
sorohanro
  • Member since: Jul. 9, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 28
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 22nd, 2012 @ 07:11 PM Reply

Thanks for your kind words. Everything was done with low or almost no budget.
Saxophone plugins to double the trumpet - DVS Saxophone and DSK SaxophoneZ.
Oktaver - Octaver_12B

Guitars through Guitar Rig Player (free), Drums from Drum Core 3 Free, Bass from Independence Free (ex Yellow Tools, now owned by Magix, quite a powerful sampler, with some options missing from Kontakt but very CPU demanding), vibraphone and synth strings from UVI Workstation free (strings from the default demo sound bank, vibraphone from Acousticsamples free pack), all recorded, sequenced and rendered in MuLab free.
Also the guitar was borrowed from the drummer of my old rock band.

Wow, beside my trumpet and the microphone, all was free :))))

deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 26th, 2012 @ 03:29 AM Reply

At 12/22/12 07:11 PM, sorohanro wrote: Thanks for your kind words. Everything was done with low or almost no budget.
Saxophone plugins to double the trumpet - DVS Saxophone and DSK SaxophoneZ.
Oktaver - Octaver_12B

Guitars through Guitar Rig Player (free), Drums from Drum Core 3 Free, Bass from Independence Free (ex Yellow Tools, now owned by Magix, quite a powerful sampler, with some options missing from Kontakt but very CPU demanding), vibraphone and synth strings from UVI Workstation free (strings from the default demo sound bank, vibraphone from Acousticsamples free pack), all recorded, sequenced and rendered in MuLab free.
Also the guitar was borrowed from the drummer of my old rock band.

Wow, beside my trumpet and the microphone, all was free :))))

Just goes to show that you don't need fancy stuff to make good music. I have a full version of Drum Core, and I don't really use it as it is really just loops, but did you just use it for backbeat and fills, aka the pre-made stuff?


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
sorohanro
sorohanro
  • Member since: Jul. 9, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 28
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 26th, 2012 @ 07:14 AM Reply

At 12/26/12 03:29 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: I have a full version of Drum Core, and I don't really use it as it is really just loops, but did you just use it for backbeat and fills, aka the pre-made stuff?

I did all drum line on keyboard, as I usually do. In rock songs you need drums to be very tight with the bass line, so, I need to go very precise with the bass (which was pretty easy because also the bass was played on keyboard, so I could line up the MIDI notes).

deadlyfishes
deadlyfishes
  • Member since: May. 15, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 26th, 2012 @ 04:31 PM Reply

At 12/26/12 07:14 AM, sorohanro wrote:
At 12/26/12 03:29 AM, deadlyfishes wrote: I have a full version of Drum Core, and I don't really use it as it is really just loops, but did you just use it for backbeat and fills, aka the pre-made stuff?
I did all drum line on keyboard, as I usually do. In rock songs you need drums to be very tight with the bass line, so, I need to go very precise with the bass (which was pretty easy because also the bass was played on keyboard, so I could line up the MIDI notes).

Very nice. I didn't know you can do that with DC.

Anyways, I would love some of your trumpeting in my tracks! I'm guessing you are very capable of reading orchestral trumpet music? All my stuff is fully scored, so I could just send you a score with audio minus trumpet!

Check my profile for my skype let's chat!


<Professional Composer> <AudioJungle Reviewer>
OFFICIAL MUSIC SITE!
Check out something I did for NATA 2013! Hikarian's winning NATA 2013 Entry

BBS Signature
sorohanro
sorohanro
  • Member since: Jul. 9, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Supporter
Level 28
Musician
Response to Discussion-mockup vs live orchestra Dec. 26th, 2012 @ 05:21 PM Reply

At 12/26/12 04:31 PM, deadlyfishes wrote: I would love some of your trumpeting in my tracks!

I'll be glad to try :)