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Guess What? Another Mass Shooting

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Ravariel
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 17:36:42 Reply

I wanted to wait a bit until a lot of the knee-jerk reactionary responses had been said and done before I chimed in, and I'd like to remind some out there of some important issues that have yet to come up. I apologize if this is a little more rambling than my usual posts, but my own thoughts on the whole thing are a bit scattered.

First of all, let me say that for nearly every mass shooting that I have been witness to as an adult (from afar, natch), I have been able to understand (not justify, or defend) the motives of the shooter. In this one, however, I am lost. His mother, I understand. Family is often the first in the line of fire for people like this. Familial murder/suicide being the most common, and least expansive examples of mass killing, make my point. But elementary schoolchildren? Usually the target of the shooter is, at least in the shooter's mind, a vector for whatever pain drives them to kill. You lash out at the hand that pains you (Columbine vs bullies, Aurora vs consumerism (?), Norwegian guy vs an oppressive government (again, not justifying or defending)). What drove this kid to travel across town to slaughter children is beyond me. Except for one possibility.

The ONLY reason I can imagine that this kid did what he did in the way he did it, instead of lashing out at someone he felt wronged by, is because he wanted to be remembered. He wanted fame. He saw us dig into every nook and cranny of the lives of the Columbine kids, of the Aurora shooter, of the Norwegian shooter, of the V-Tech shooter. He saw a nation or a world held in rapt attention by the lives of these killers, and he saw the only avenue open to making his life something remarkable.

And yet how to make an impression when mass shootings have become almost passe in America? It's going to be hard to beat the numbers racked up in V-Tech and Norway in such a small town, so it has to be something where numbers aren't the only story. And what better way to horrify, to fascinate, to go down in infamy... than an attack where our most vulnerable should be at their safest?

Now before I go and say that our media culture is somehow responsible for this, or should be held accountable, and that weapon laws have nothing to do with the problem, let me nip some things in the bud. For full disclosure, I have long been an advocate for reasonable gun laws. I do not advocate banning anything outright. My stated preference has been for a licensing system similar to one you have for an automobile, with required training, psychological evaluation, licensing, and insurance, with multiple levels of licenses necessary for different types of weapons (similar to commercial licenses for trucks and taxis). The cost of these would be paid by those wanting the licenses.

A frequent argument against stricter gun laws is that if we outlaw guns only outlaws will have them. That criminals won't give a shit if they're breaking one law, when they're already breaking others. Well, in cases like these, that argument doesn't hold up. The vast majority of mass shootings have been perpetrated by completely legal firearms. Most have been also perpetrated by people with little to no criminal backgrounds. In this case, the limiting of legal firearms would, indeed, have an effect. (no, I'm not advocating the ban of all guns, hold the fuck on and read the whole post)

Another argument I have seen is that Mass shootings like this are so rare (accounting for less than 1% of firearm murders perpetrated per year) that any attempt on legislator's parts to codify a solution in law would be akin to swatting a fly with a stinger missile. There have been 16 mass shootings in the US this year alone, leaving 88 people dead.

Tied to this argument is that of the Second Amendment. Someone in this very thread put the second half of that amendment in all caps, to remind us all that it's the second most important law evar. He, of course, as is the wont of most gun apologists, ignores the first half of the sentence. I'd like to ask what well-regulated militia this kid was a part of, and how he guaranteed a free state?

I have also heard it said that gun deaths are a cost of our freedoms. Freedom isn't free, as some like to say. And I have to ask if this is an acceptable price to you. Are the lives of 20 children slaughtered at an elementary school, as well as 6 educators, the people in whose arms we place the care of those children, worth it? Look into the eyes of the parents of these kids, and tell them that their child was a necessary sacrifice. It's a price I am not willing to pay, personally. Shit like this is too expensive.

But the most insidious argument against re-thinking our gun culture, is the quoting of cherry-picked statistics. People point to places like Switzerland who has a similar gun ownership rate and gun control laws to America, with significantly lower crime rates than us. Others point to statistics that in America you're actually half as likely to be the victim of a violent crime as in, say, the UK. Some point to similar events elsewhere in the world as evidence that different laws make little to no difference in preventing shit like this. Hell, a man in China stabbed something like 22 kids in an elementary school just a day after our own attack. Obviously if crazies can do this with knives, the availability of guns would do nothing to stop crimes like this. Of course, missing in such examples are acknowledgement of the greater context of the statistics and events.

The Chinese attack resulted in exactly 0 deaths. Also, a knife cannot kill multiple people on the other side of a room. There's a reason that people whose job it is to wound/kill other people (or animals) use guns almost exclusively.

Switzerland is an almost entirely homogenous society, with mandatory military service (and training) and a host of other factors that obscure the actual correlation between gun laws and gun crime.

America, per capita, is more violent, by a staggering amount than any other OECD country. We don't just have a culture of gun ownership, we have a culture of glorifying violence. We can watch people getting shot, stabbed and blown up on prime-time television and in movies to which a person of any age can enter without a parent. We are desensitized to violence, and we in turn are a very violent people.

We glorify those who do terrible things. (note that I have not named a single perpetrator, because I refuse to give them one second more consideration than necessary)

We glorify violence in general in our entertainment.

We glorify a tool whose only function is harm.

We demonize mental health problems.

We basically require most families to have 2 incomes, making it difficult for parents to stay home to parent.

We demonize education, intellectualism, science, and fact-based inquiry.

These factors, as well as others, are the reason that we have had 62 mass murders (all done with firearms) in the last 30 years. This is nearly as many as the rest of the world combined in the same timeframe (not counting militia, government, actions).

Forgotten in all of this are the victims. Sure we weep and spout platitudes, but who here can name, without looking it up online, the names of those killed in Colorado? Who can name a single victim from V-Tech? Columbine? Connecticut?

Anyone?

CHARLOTTE BACON, 6
DANIEL BARDEN, 7
RACHEL DAVINO, 29
OLIVIA ENGEL, 6
JOSEPHINE GAY, 7
ANA G. MARQUEZ-GREENE, 6
DYLAN HOCKLEY, 6
DAWN HOCHSPRUNG, 47
MADELEINE F. HSU, 6
CATHERINE V. HUBBARD, 6
CHASE KOWALSKI, 7
JESSE LEWIS, 6
JAMES MATTIOLI, 6
GRACE MCDONNELL, 7
ANNE MARIE MURPHY, 52
EMILIE PARKER, 6
JACK PINTO, 6
NOAH POZNER, 6
CAROLINE PREVIDI, 6
JESSICA REKOS, 6
AVIELLE RICHMAN, 6
LAUREN ROUSSEAU, 30
MARY SHERLACH, 56
VICTORIA SOTO, 27

Remember those names. Not the name of the fucktard who slaughtered them. He doesn't deserve it.

And we deserve better.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

RacistBassist
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 18:22:02 Reply

At 12/16/12 05:36 PM, Ravariel wrote: I'd like to ask what well-regulated militia this kid was a part of, and how he guaranteed a free state?

Just thought I'd point out that a militia is every able bodied person able to be called upon, and that having the populace of the United States be armed is what guarantees a free state, whether it be foreign invasion, or an overstepping government.


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Feoric
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 18:37:14 Reply

At 12/16/12 01:41 AM, Proteas wrote: I find it hilarious that there are people who would trust their children to the school system for 8 hours a day, but don't trust that same school system to keep their children safe in the event of a spree killing. Even the cops will tell you that they can't be there to protect you 24 hours a day, and that you are ultimately responsible for your own self defense. So why is it unreasonable that somebody on the school grounds be armed when the shit hits the fan?

Listen to what you're saying. This is an admission that the issue of meaningfully controlling and regulating guns in this country is so far beyond the possibility of happening that the only possible course of action is to go in the other direction: adding more guns. You mean to tell me, seriously, with a straight face, that the best way to prevent this from happening again is to have teachers of all grades, including professors (it happened at VTech, too), to have a gun on their person at all times. That means that every teacher and professor not only has to be qualified for the job, but they also have to have proper training with guns and superb marksmanship. Because the end result of this is ultimately to have a shootout in a school. Nobody has 100% marksmanship, so the more bullets you have flying around, the more likely it is for somebody to be hit. In a school. It's also worth mentioning that Adam Lanza had body armor on, so you either a) have to be good enough to get a head shot without missing or b) have AP rounds. Truly, a safe classroom environment.

But why stop at schools? What about the Aurora shooting? Let's give all movie theater employees guns. Flight attendants? Give them guns too. Hell, why not the students? Give them guns. Any lone wolf shooter would be stopped dead in his tracks. He'll be vastly outnumbered.

Well, these soft targets aren't very soft now, are they? Since everyone has guns there now. Well, okay, we have to make the new soft targets safe. Um...supermarkets? Well, we didn't give them guns, so give the baggers and the cashiers and the stockers guns too. Libraries? All librarians are required to have guns. Um, what else is there....oh! Churches! Here's your Beretta, Sister Mary. Oh dear, what have we done?! Where does it end?! Give every single person a gun, it's the only way to be safe. Because remember those good samaritans that stopped spree shooters with their concealed weapon, bravely shooting them down? All zero of them?

1994 AWB

Not to take the wind out of your sail. but I already made a post about the AWB and how ineffective it was.

So, instead of writing laws that have little to no teeth which only serve to frustrate the legal acquisition of firearms, why not try coming up with some ideas that will actually work?

Here's a better idea. Instead of the pro-gun control and the anti-gun control sides being incessant snarky pricks to each other whenever these topics come up, why don't you tell me your ideas, if you have any? Because I already know where this is headed, and it can be summed up into this.

Actually, the very wording of the amendment means it will never been amended away, and the courts have already voiced their opinion that it's not going away (Heller v. District of Columbia, 2008 reaffirmed the right of the average citizen to have guns, as ruled by the Supreme Court). Keep dreaming.

You're wrong. The constitution is a law. Laws are mutable. The enforcement of the law is even more mutable. The interpretation of the law is more mutable still. The Constitution isn't set in stone. It can be amended (has been 27 times), and it contains a provision for writing an entirely new constitution should the need ever arise. The Constitution is very much a living document. The US Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of its interpretation, and the Court's interpretations change as time goes on. Although Supreme Court Justices generally try to avoid flat-out overruling previous Supreme Court decisions, they invalidate old interpretations of the Constitution all the time. Occasionally they straight up discard old rulings. Whether it's likely is another question entirely (spoiler: it isn't).

Are you aware that it's a violation of the Commerce Clause to legislate against person-to-person gun sales, and as such, any law you write in an attempt to frustrate the average law abiding citizen's ability to purchase a new firearm will have ZERO effect on person-to-person transactions?

I really don't give a shit how much it frustrates your ability to purchase guns and ammo if it means saving lives, and neither should you or anybody else for that matter.

As for the CC, the Supreme Court didn't directly say that the Federal Government had the authority to regulate intrastate commerce in all cases. See Wickard v. Filburn, when the SCOTUS ruled that the Federal Government could regulate purely intrastate commerce under the interstate commerce clause. From that time until U.S. v Lopez in 1995, not one instance of the federal government's use of the commerce clause was ruled unconstitutional. They didn't directly say the Federal Government could ignore the Constitution, but they indirectly said they could by allowing this clear violation of the commerce clause powers. And until 1995 when the Federal Government tried to use the commerce clause to ban guns in schools, their power under this clause was never overruled by the supreme court. In 1995 the Federal Government was able to effectively carry out intrastate regulation. The court said that the government could ban guns as long as they only banned guns that had moved, but pretty much any gun is made up of parts from different locations.

But, hey, that's the legal situation in America right now. This is reality. Something of which the majority of you arguing for "stronger gun legislation" have little clue about.

There's no need for concern, I'm perfectly aware of the situation. I think all sorts of people like me totally recognize gun control today is a futile effort, and people like you certainly aren't helping. There's a disconnect here, and it's intentional. What happened in Newton is a mentally unstable person had easy access to legal firearms, just a few out of the countless millions out on the market right now. Either we're okay with that as a country or we're not. Either we accept the need for full scale healthcare reform as well as stringent yet reasonable firearm safety measures, or we don't. Otherwise we're just going to keep vomiting meaningless pro-gun talking points designed to make people talk in circles. Either you're okay with that, or you're not. If you are, then you have to come to terms with the fact that events like this will happen again, and again, and again, and again. If you're not, then you have to come to terms with the fact that something needs to be done differently.

Proteas
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 18:56:53 Reply

At 12/16/12 08:46 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Simple fix, gunpowder, 500 dollara a gram.

Gunpowder is nothing more than ground charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate, all of which are easily available.

Projectiles not for sale.

Lead is cheap, easy to melt, you can buy it buy the pound. Cheaper yet if you have friends who work scrap yards.

(That 5 pound ingot of lead can make 282 9mm bullets at 124 grains or 8.04 grams a piece, by the way)

Shotguns can be loaded with anything and still be quite effective. Steel nails, for example, make HELLISH flechettes.

Brass cartridges ....not for sale

Home re-loaders are notorious about keeping their own, as well as stockpiling it. In the mad rush before the law went into effect, these people would stockpile enough of it to render the issue a moot point of discussion.

Add to that, the fact that you wouldn't be able to do anything to stop people from stockpiling ammunition in the lead-up to such a bill...

Primer caps not for sale.

The Army's Technical Manual 31-210, Improvised Munitions Handbook dealing with explosive ordinance teaches how to synthesize both Mercury Fulminate (page 69) which can be used as a gun primer, in addition to showing you how to improvise the components for black powder (page 13).

If you're making your own gunpowder, it shouldn't be too much of an issue to make your own gun primer, now should it?

Take away the ability to buy supplies, & sure people could produce cartridges, projectiles 7 even a propellant ....but it sure wouldn't be easy & it would no longer be cheap.

In five minutes on Google search, I just showed everyone how cheap and easy it is to acquire the ingredients to make ammunition, showed them how many flaws there are in your plan.

Like I said, Prohibition does not work. You guys are approaching this from the wrong angle.

At 12/16/12 03:46 PM, Feoric wrote: Someone correct me if I'm wrong as I'm basing this on old memory, but to my knowledge all dealers at a gun show do not have to perform the same background checks, only dealers who hold federal firearms licenses.

Welcome to 2009. That bill would be easily side-stepped by people simply exitting the building and conducting their business in the parking lot.

The only people who don't are random joes who are just showing up with a couple of their personal firearms to sell. The latter is what I'm talking about.

In which case, that is a person-to-person sale, not a gun dealer sale, and as such cannot be legislated against.

Any legislation that would close it would in effect be banning private firearm sales between two or more parties, and forcing everyone to get a license.

Actually, it would have far more damming effects than just that, as you would be interfering with interstate commerce.

The effect of the laws are fine with me. I'll say once again that requiring background checks does not equate to a banning of private sales.

No, and you will not see anyone on the gun rights side of the issue disagreeing with you.

Forced licensing does not equate banning, and I don't see how licensing for the sale of a potentially dangerous item is some horrible conspiracy to rob people of their rights.

And how exactly do you intend to enforce such a rule when there are more than 300 million guns already in circulation? These guns are already out there in the ether, and many owners own more than one firearm. Are you going to make each owner have to get certified on each gun they own? Can you imagine the logistical clusterfuck you would create at training centers?

100%?

You'd be lucky if it was enforced at all.

But even if this program stops 10 people a year, then you have to compare the cost of the program vs saving lives.

If all it does is stop 10 people a year, you don't even begin to chip away at the problem. You would be spending millions of taxpayer dollars on a program that would show statistically negligible benefits. Taxpayer money wasted, better spent on other solutions.

If there is another cheaper, better, more efficient way to do that, then of course do that instead. But if there isn't one, then what do you do about it?

Quit approaching the issue from the angle that the law abiding citizen needs to be punished for having guns, and instead, focus your efforts on punishing those who do commit crimes with them. Stop glorifying spree shooters in the media.

We already do on the state level

Only in a handful of states, and even then, you can't stop person-to-person transactions, rendering one state's law on the matter moot.

It's literally the difference between life and death.

And the last time a shooter walked around with a backpack full of high capacity clips was... the Norway Shootings last year. You could bring up the North Hollywood Shootout if you liked, but those men weren't spree-shooters.


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Camarohusky
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 19:32:23 Reply

At 12/16/12 05:36 PM, Ravariel wrote: The ONLY reason I can imagine that this kid did what he did in the way he did it, instead of lashing out at someone he felt wronged by, is because he wanted to be remembered.

I have thought hard about why he would do this, and I have come up with a different possible reason, although less likely than yours.

Seeing as he went to this elementary school and killed his mother, it got me thinking, was there anything truly horrific done to this guy when he was a kid? I mean if his mom was the perpatrator of severe and/or extended abuse of any kind ad if it occurred at the school, he may have lashed out at the school for what was done to him. If he believed (with his warped logic) that the children were in danger of the same cruel fate, he may have killed them to 'save' them. It's actually quite common among young murders who kill their abusive parents and then proceed to kill their younger siblings. However, the fact that he shot most of the kids so many times each does detract from this possibility.

Perhaps my mind jumped to this because it just cannot fathom the killing of so many children for something so petty as infamy.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 20:48:45 Reply

At 12/16/12 01:46 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 12/15/12 10:36 PM, Warforger wrote:
That's quite different now isn't it?
No it's not. You don't seem to get that problems stemming for diversity are actually caused by diversity. It's not a coincidence that it happens almost every single time.

Very far from the truth. The reason you don't hear about multi-ethnic states that work out (such as say Switzerland) is that nothing happens there and they are peaceful. It's far from "every single time". What has been shown however is the societies values which truly effect it, what you pointed to in Quebec stems from centuries of conflict not because of multi-cultural societies but because of values determined by the society. It's like assuming that because black people were slaves multi-cultural societies fail when it was the values of one culture that caused that. For example, there are ALOT of Asian (Asian being East Asian and South Asian) immigrants into America. They've become the plurality in many of the nations top universities such as Princeton or Berkeley. They've made it to many top positions in companies and in government, they've become news reporters and hell Indians (Indian being from INDIA) have been elected governors in Louisiana and South Carolina, some of the most notoriously racist states in America. Yet, where's the conflict? Where's the violence? All we ever hear about are Mexican immigrants who consider it an insult to show the American flag on Cinco De Mayo or those booing the American team on their home town and burning the American flag. Like I said, it's not that the presence of other culture's cause the conflict, it's the issue of conflicting values. In Europe for example, the Islamic immigrants are causing a huge uproar because their culture is values based, not freedoms based, so they don't accept it when people insult their religion or try to impose Feminist values to it. Yet is there as much of an uproar from Asians? Africans?

"Oh AIDs? That's not dangerous, it just destroys your immune system. That can't kill you. The problem isn't AIDs, it's pneumonia! Damn pneumonia!!"

Terrible example. AIDS in this case would be the values towards other people of a society, Pneumonia would be the higher rates of violence.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 21:13:59 Reply

These sort of tragedies are pretty much caused by, as some of you guys have said, a mental issue with the criminal. But we can't really dispute just how easy it is to legally obtain a gun. You can make the point that 'criminals will still gain the means or find a different route' but why speed up the process?

I am all for the 2nd amendment, but at this point I get the feeling people, these kind of people who ruthlessly kill children are exploiting the opportunities granted within our constitution to commit these atrocities. We all can understand that the amendment was put into place to protect us from a tyrannical government, but what protects us from ourselves?

Sort of ironic coming from the generation of the murderer, but there has been a decline in raising children and the morality that comes with it. ...Nuts, the more I think about it, the more I hate thinking about how our grandparents think of 'us' as the entitled generation. I don't want to admit my stubborn grandfather might have been right but when we as a nation are having these kind of tragedies within a certain period of time...

Mmm, fix the mental problems we have first. I don't think we need gun control as much as people think, more like gun advocates and gun controlists alike should look into better ways to screen people who wish to uphold their 2nd amendment right.

Even if this bastard had to wait another day because he couldn't access the guns sooner, that would have been another day someone could have noticed and stopped him. Of course that is being generous, but you catch my drift.


If I could name one person I respect.........it probably would be me. oh and the guy who lives here

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-16 23:52:38 Reply

At 12/16/12 05:36 PM, Ravariel wrote: I wanted to .......
And we deserve better.

I agree with Ravareil.

Really, what is the major difference between us and them, between other countries and America?

It's our culture. I could bet more than half our movies have killings in it.

Remember Catcher in the Rye? (For anyone who read that book)?

Back then, it was considered absurd, no, downright crazy to go out on the street and shoot at people.
People would look at that as something impossible, something only criminals would be able to do to other criminals (times of the mafia after all).

Perhaps we have simply become to desensitized to death; to drunken with power.

After all, in the hands of someone who has practiced, you can carry an item which can end a life in mere seconds, for less than what it costs to buy a car.

No, even greater than that is the power of the gun; able to take multiple lives,with no cost.

We see it's power as majestic; it's compact form as beautiful.
We see it as fun to be able to unleash bullets at speeds that can shatter rocks and bones, simply because we can.

We have, in essence, glorified death - not directly, as a dark cult would, but indirectly, through a powerful, compact, relatively inexpensive tool. The ultimate weapon for the common masses.

And while it is true that some show their respect and wield their guns with caution, we all know that what we have can still end a life whenever we wanted to, simply by our own whim, and may not think twice about what it takes to create that life, since it is now meaningless.

That criminal breaking into your house? He was once an innocent baby too, he was once a kid, who watched cartoons, played sports, went to school.
He once had dreams too.
Something along the way corrupted that person, and now, for whatever reason, be it greed, necessity, drugs, he has broken into your house, and he may even try to kill you to achieve his goals.

We don't know that, we only know he has broken into your private property and that he is trying to take what you worked hard to achieve.

And yet, our survival instincts, what should be fear or anger, are dampened; why?
Because we have a tool that can end the threat in seconds. So fast that you don't even question if your life is in danger.
You simply grab a gun, aim for center mass, and pull a trigger.

Just like that, what took 20,30, 18, 50 years to create has been ended, without a second thought.

We don't aim to disable, although we could.
We aim to kill.
We survived the threat.

But at what cost really?

That person will never have a second chance now.
He won't have a chance to learn humility and see that there is no need to rob for the things he desires, things that are unnecessary.
He won't have a chance to kick his drug habit and perhaps start a family.
Or, if he had a family,
He'll never be able to provide for his kid a legal way, and that child is now fatherless or motherless or both; an orphan.

He won't have a second chance because as gun owners, we've been trained to kill and not think.
He is an intruder - I have a gun - he is a threat - aim for center mass, shoot, and eliminate threat.

We have been taught to aim for the center, not the knees, not the foot, arms, or hands.
But for the heart or the brain.
And don't stop at one shot, but unload your thing.

Why?
Because he can kill me. He might have a gun too.
And I know that guns can kill me easily, just like I'm going to do to him.
I'm only defending myself after all.
What's one life.

Or as Tony put it, a useless life.

That is our culture right there, in a nutshell.
Its just a gun.
Its just a tool.
Its just a life.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 05:09:07 Reply

At 12/14/12 06:47 PM, JMHX wrote: In seriousness, can I get us to agree that the current lack of registration, mental health screening and background checking in the gun market now is a serious problem that needs to be fixed? I'm not proposing any ban on guns, and as a gun owner myself I respect the ideals of the Second Amendment. But I'm certain the Founders never intended children to die because a lunatic purchased a weapon.

If anything I say find a way to keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill since many of the mentally ill individuals are more then likely to commit killing sprees (witch in most cases end in suicide), through I also suspect a possible revenge motive of sort since Nancy Lanza removed her son Adam Lanza from the Newtown public school system due to the sheer fact she was unhappy with the school district's plans for her son. The article about the Sandy Hook Elementary School Shootings can be found here.

From what I also noticed on another interesting report is that many of the mentally ill end up getting there mental treatment in jails rather than in hospitals or treatment centers, leading to exposure of the mentally ill to hardened criminals witch in turn becomes an even bigger problem, a bigger problem that also must be solved and soon. Its a report I found on this Link.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 06:00:13 Reply

At 12/16/12 11:52 PM, Revo357912 wrote: Or as Tony put it, a useless life.

yup, but thats just my depressingly cynical view of life.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 08:01:51 Reply

How many thousands of people in the US literally agree with 'from my cold dead hands'?

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 08:52:15 Reply

At 12/16/12 06:56 PM, Proteas wrote:
At 12/16/12 08:46 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Simple fix, gunpowder, 500 dollara a gram.
Gunpowder is nothing more than ground charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate, all of which are easily available.

;;;
WHile the ingredients & making it are presently easy to obtain, you can change that as well Proteas.
What you haven't mentioned ....IS quality.
I've made gunpowder , we made it to use for homemade fireworks. It is difficult to make in quantity & the quality is another problem & the stuff we made sure wasn't "smokeless".
Just like casting bullets from lead, would give you low quality projectiles .

So while I don't advocate banning guns, or ammunition. Making ammunition harder to acquire, could deter some people. I haven't seen too many news stories where the shooter(s) have been making their own bullets.

IF we want to assume anyone can make bullets, let us not forget they could then just start making their own guns !


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 10:57:59 Reply

At 12/16/12 01:41 AM, Proteas wrote:
At 12/14/12 06:47 PM, JMHX wrote: In seriousness, can I get us to agree that the current lack of registration, mental health screening and background checking in the gun market now is a serious problem that needs to be fixed?
It was fixed. In the wake of the V-Tech shootings, a law was passed that mandated any information regarding a citizen's mental unsoundness be tied into their criminal background check. While a noble act that was supported by the NRA, this only works if the individual has ever been a legal reason for a person's sanity to be called into question.

Not entirely true. I can still go to a gun show here in Virginia, or to most of the states in the metro area, and purchase a gun from a "secondary seller" without any background check or valid identification. The gun costs more than it does from a licensed dealer, but hey, I didn't have to pony up ANY identification for the Smith & Wession K-body .38 special I picked up in Dale City.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 10:59:59 Reply

At 12/17/12 05:09 AM, Thecrazyman wrote:
From what I also noticed on another interesting report is that many of the mentally ill end up getting there mental treatment in jails rather than in hospitals or treatment centers, leading to exposure of the mentally ill to hardened criminals witch in turn becomes an even bigger problem, a bigger problem that also must be solved and soon. Its a report I found on this Link.

Thank the Reagan Administration for the process of "deinstitutionalization." This is one of the direct causes of the wave of mentally disabled homeless we see on the streets, and one of the biggest contributing factors to the rise in undiagnosed and untreated mental illness among the poor or chronic wards of the state. You can bounce in and out of prison and hospital facilities DOZENS of times before you kill someone or end up dead on the street. There's no long-term solution currently available for indigent, mentally disabled people.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 13:08:02 Reply

and new westboro baptist wants to picket the funerals.

I'll be honest, if someone wants to do something like a mass shooting, or blow a bunch of ppl up, why can't they do it to the westboro baptist church? at least then they would be doing the world a favor.

those people piss me off, perhaps worse, than these douchebag atheists who can't leave other people alone and have to shove their (lack of) belief in everyone else's face.At least atheists (as far as I know) don't go to funerals and heckle grieving families. (probably because the ass beating their would receive might land them in a casket as well)

you want infamy? off Fred Phelps, not only would the world thank you for it, you'd be front page news for a solid month.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 13:39:39 Reply

You can't kill off ignorance.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 14:12:48 Reply

It now appears that the shooter's mother knew something was up but kept it hidden.

This represents the true obstacle to stopping these attacks, much more so than gun control or mental institutions. We need to be a little (i.e. A shit ton more) receptive to those who have mental illnesses. We look down on mental illnesses as if they were the bubonic plague and highly contagious, yet so many of us have some sort of mental disorder. In fact, many people have a mental disorder and don't even know it.

At the Juvenile Department when we tried to work out deals with parents for admissions we would almost always have to change the stock DHS language of "parent has a mental condition" to a specific description of the condition. In this case, and perhaps many more mass shootings, suicides, and other tragic acts, the mothr withheld her concerns for fear of embarassment from the community.

We could blame the mother. We could say that she chose saving face over the lives of 20 children, but in reality the chances of any tragic act happening due to mental illness is extremely low (although it is very much higher than that for a sober adult who has no mental illness). Her choice was between saving face and a slight chance of improving the quality of life for her family at the expense of normalcy.

Had society been very open to news of a mental illness, perhaps Lanza would have sought mental help for her child and those 20 kiddos would likely be living on today.

We as a society are just as guilty as Lanza for the tragedy by creating an atmosphere of shame that kept Lanza's eventually dangerous condition hidden and untreated. Our disgust with mental illnesses helped no one and now we're all paying the price.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 15:13:14 Reply

At 12/17/12 02:12 PM, Camarohusky wrote: We as a society are just as guilty as Lanza for the tragedy

;;;;
You Know CamaroH ...I'm not guilty of anything.
&
I actually don't really care.

You see I am numb, fucking numb over all the deaths in the news
Like in in Gaza,
THe murders of between 150 to 350 THOUSAND Iraqi's in your latest occupation of their country.
THe deaths of hundreds of Canadians ....THAT IS HUNDREDS not 26 who died in the Afghan conflict AKA WAR !
THe nonstop murderous rampages going on all over Africa, the Balkans, The murders of indiginous peoples all through Central & South America over resources etc.

SO while I won't ask you to forgive me, for my complete lack of remourse & or 'feelings' on this latest 'drop in the bucket' of human misery this year .... I've just basicly had enough & I really don't care I'm numb & I don't feel anything !
It isn't anyone I know, it isn't anyone I care about ....Its just another small number of dead people in the news & I've seen a lot of that in news reports for just 2012, where thousands of deaths have been reported on Al Jaazera, the BBC, Reuters, etc etc.

If you want to attempt to play the dead children up as being somehow a special circumstance ...
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Photo's+of+dead+children +in+Gaza&qpvt=Photo%27s+of+dead+children+in+Gaza&FORM=IGRE

It isn't
Its happening every single week .... just not every single week in America !


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 15:20:49 Reply

At 12/17/12 03:13 PM, morefngdbs wrote: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Photo's+of+dead+children +in+Gaza&qpvt=Photo%27s+of+dead+children+in+Gaza&FORM=IGRE

;;;;
I really dislike it when I link to pages & it gets corrupted !
http://www.google.ca/search?q=Photos+of+dead+children+in+Gaz a&hl=en&tbo=u&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&rlz=1I7ADBF_en&tbm=isc h&source=univ&sa=X&ei=DX7PUNn9EIiqyAGenYHAAg&ved=0CDYQsAQ&bi w=1680&bih=869


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 16:15:43 Reply

At 12/17/12 10:59 AM, JMHX wrote: This is one of the direct causes of the wave of mentally disabled homeless we see on the streets, and one of the biggest contributing factors to the rise in undiagnosed and untreated mental illness among the poor or chronic wards of the state. You can bounce in and out of prison and hospital facilities DOZENS of times before you kill someone or end up dead on the street.

And yet none of these people have access to firearms or carry out mass killings, so I don't think we can blame school shootings on Reagan. Lanza's problem was not a lack of access to mental health services.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 16:44:54 Reply

At 12/15/12 03:36 PM, Feoric wrote:
At 12/15/12 03:27 PM, Iron-Hampster wrote: gunsmiths and imports. Russian weapons tend to be pretty cheap and mass producible, and easily replicated.
Wrong answer.

No...right answer. From your own source:

"More than 68,000 of the 99,691 firearms that were recovered between 2007 and 2011, and submitted to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for trace testing, were either made in the U.S. or legally brought into the U.S. at one point, according to the agency."

What I put in bold and underlined is a key point. Let me walk you through this logically:

A) In order to be made or brought into the US, a firearm must have a unique serial number.
B) In order to be traced, a firearm must have a unique serial number.
C) This article only surveys the number of firearms submitted for trace testing to a US law enforcement agency.
D) Therefore, this statistic is only derived from one subset of firearms.

Both the Mexican and American government admits that more guns are recovered in Mexico than can be traced. Ergo...this is a fraction of fraction. You prove no point.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 16:46:35 Reply

At 12/17/12 01:39 PM, Feoric wrote: You can't kill off ignorance.

Too bad...maybe then we wouldn't have knee-jerk, factually-challenged calls for gun control every time this happens! Maybe then we could actually do something meaningful to prevent future tragedies! :)


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 16:46:45 Reply

At 12/17/12 04:15 PM, adrshepard wrote:
At 12/17/12 10:59 AM, JMHX wrote: This is one of the direct causes of the wave of mentally disabled homeless we see on the streets, and one of the biggest contributing factors to the rise in undiagnosed and untreated mental illness among the poor or chronic wards of the state. You can bounce in and out of prison and hospital facilities DOZENS of times before you kill someone or end up dead on the street.
And yet none of these people have access to firearms or carry out mass killings, so I don't think we can blame school shootings on Reagan. Lanza's problem was not a lack of access to mental health services.

Look beyond just mass shootings, though I'll come back to that point in a second. You can't tell me, looking at DoJ and HHS data, that the number of criminally-charged incidents involving homeless who were found to have mental disabilities hasn't increased since Reagan's deinstitutionalization program concluded.

SIMILARLY, one of the ripple effects of the deinstitutionalization program was that states - especially state boards of education - lost significant funding for counseling and serious therapy services for students. This also extended beyond schools themselves into the public health system of states. I don't know if you've ever had the unfortunate situation of having to get a loved one committed, but it's nearly impossible due to the sheer lack of resources most states have on their mental health budgets. In most cases, social workers will tell you directly that the quickest way to get help for your loved one is to have them commit a crime. For most disabled after deinstitutionalization, jail is about the only place that provides even rudimentary mental health services.

Now I disagree with you entirely that Lanza wouldn't have gained from mental health services. Unfortunately it's a counterfactual we'll never know the answer to. But when I look at the cases of guys like Holmes, Lanza, and Loughner, and how slightly over half (I believe 38 out of 62, will have to dig it out) of the past mass shootings (counted as 4+ victims, as is common among law enforcement) have been at the hands of individuals who had pre-existing mental conditions or were found to have mental conditions upon arrest. There is absolutely a relationship, and the lack of available treatment is a major causative factor.

This leaves behind the earlier point I made, the "private seller" loophole, which I'm glad to see got some criticism from both sides of the aisle.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 17:00:26 Reply

At 12/16/12 11:52 PM, Revo357912 wrote: That criminal breaking into your house? He was once an innocent baby too, he was once a kid, who watched cartoons, played sports, went to school.
He once had dreams too.
Something along the way corrupted that person, and now, for whatever reason, be it greed, necessity, drugs, he has broken into your house, and he may even try to kill you to achieve his goals.

We don't know that, we only know he has broken into your private property and that he is trying to take what you worked hard to achieve.

And yet, our survival instincts, what should be fear or anger, are dampened; why?
Because we have a tool that can end the threat in seconds. So fast that you don't even question if your life is in danger.
You simply grab a gun, aim for center mass, and pull a trigger.

Just like that, what took 20,30, 18, 50 years to create has been ended, without a second thought.

We don't aim to disable, although we could.
We aim to kill.
We survived the threat.

But at what cost really?

That boy has broken into the house of a woman who worked her way out of poverty to attend grad school and earn her MD/PhD. Locked inside her mind was the cure to cancer, or AIDS, or the way to ensure that no one would ever go on a shooting spree again.

But that boy also grew-up impoverished. His male role model beating and raping his mother. Showing him that a woman's life was worthless. Socially awkward, none of the girls in school would pay attention to him, so he never got the chance to learn to love. Maybe he started having homosexual urges, but his father beat that out of him too. All his life he was taught to hate himself and hate others.

So he breaks in. The woman's dog wakes her up.
She calls 9-1-1, the police are on their way.
Angry at being found out the boy breaks through the thin door of her bedroom.
Knife in hand.
He leaves no witnesses.

At what cost you say?

The cost to following emotion and an illusion of safety is as follows:

It is at the cost of allowing the strong to prey on the weak.
It is at the cost of returning to a state of nature where we superstitiously rely on this entity called 'the State' to protect us.
It is the cost of good people not being able to stand up to evil.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 17:16:10 Reply

At 12/15/12 12:22 PM, poxpower wrote: I know this is something democrats would NEVER talk about either, which is probably why this is the first I've heard of it. They're way too preoccupied with being PC to admit that cultural diversity is fucking shit and causes nothing but problems. The very thought that they'd have to blame cultural differences for violence goes against everything they stand for.

Actually, I think it's a natural, logical part of the Democratic worldview. As Warforger points out, the problems caused by ELF are because one of the ethnicities is disadvantaged or powerless (in rare cases, a majority can be very powerful such as the Chinese minority in the Phillipines). Access to educational or socio-economic opportunities is limited to this group. Thus they turn to crime as a means of support.

Now in the locale that Warforger points out I would hazard to guess he lives in either a college town or a tech center and his neighbors are highly educated, getting highly educated, and/or have good paying jobs. Ergo, those are factors that depress crime.

All in all it's a very Marxist way of looking at a social ill. :)

Anyway, as far as legislation, I think you could definitely limit the firepower of weapons people are allowed to carry. Just try it out for a couple years. Might make a dent, who knows.

The thing is...that is already self-regulating. Concealed carry permit holders typically carry a 9mm or .38 special hangun...both caliburs are not all that high-powered. But you put a jacketed hollow-point in them, and aim for the heart or head (like Cho did at VT)...and they are lethal.

Assault rifles, shooting a round that is only marginally more powerful than a magnum pistol round, are not concealable and only good for target shooting and short-range hunting in the woods (using expensive ammo that's prohibitive for use in spray and pray). They are unwieldy in a hold-up or self-defense situation.

Hunting rifles...same thing as assault rifles. Only difference: they are high-powered killing machines whereas assault rifles are not.

Shotguns: criminals use them because they can be sawed off both at the barrel and the stock because there is no rifling to worry about. And they are highly effective...and easy to make if need be.

So really...what are you going to limit?


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 19:32:45 Reply

At 12/17/12 05:00 PM, TheMason wrote:
At 12/16/12 11:52 PM, Revo357912 wrote:
But at what cost really?
That boy has broken into the house of a woman who worked her way out of poverty to attend grad school and earn her MD/PhD. Locked inside her mind was the cure to cancer, or AIDS, or the way to ensure that no one would ever go on a shooting spree again.

But that boy also grew-up impoverished. His male role model beating and raping his mother. Showing him that a woman's life was worthless. Socially awkward, none of the girls in school would pay attention to him, so he never got the chance to learn to love. Maybe he started having homosexual urges, but his father beat that out of him too. All his life he was taught to hate himself and hate others.

So he breaks in. The woman's dog wakes her up.
She calls 9-1-1, the police are on their way.
Angry at being found out the boy breaks through the thin door of her bedroom.
Knife in hand.
He leaves no witnesses.

At what cost you say?

The cost to following emotion and an illusion of safety is as follows:

It is at the cost of allowing the strong to prey on the weak.
It is at the cost of returning to a state of nature where we superstitiously rely on this entity called 'the State' to protect us.
It is the cost of good people not being able to stand up to evil.

That's not the cost.

The cost is our humanity.
It is seeing people as simply numbers and statistics, not as a life of value.
It is to become trapped, and be left with only two solutions;
to kill, or to be killed.

You don't see, but the illusion already covers all of us, and none of have found a way to escape it;
that as a society, that as a race, we have to be able to kill in order to live.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 19:37:03 Reply

looks like Westboro Baptist church wants to picket the funerals. jeez what assholes.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 19:37:34 Reply

At 12/17/12 04:44 PM, TheMason wrote: Both the Mexican and American government admits that more guns are recovered in Mexico than can be traced. Ergo...this is a fraction of fraction. You prove no point.

Do the majority of the guns and ammo used by the cartel to fight the drug war come from the US? Yes or no.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 22:25:58 Reply

At 12/17/12 04:46 PM, TheMason wrote: Too bad...maybe then we wouldn't have knee-jerk, factually-challenged calls for gun control every time this happens! Maybe then we could actually do something meaningful to prevent future tragedies! :)

I wonder, then, what you might suggest as the solution. All I have seen is your resistance to anything targeting (no pun intended) weapons themselves, with little to no suggestions for actual action. Two things routinely come up when this shit goes down: guns and mental health. This time, a few fingers have pointed at the media circus, but not nearly enough.

How do we curtail violence, and especially the deadliest violence, that done with firearms, in a country that loooooves violence? How do we change a culture of "shoot first ask questions maybe eventually"?


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-17 22:36:47 Reply

At 12/17/12 08:52 AM, morefngdbs wrote: WHile the ingredients & making it are presently easy to obtain, you can change that as well Proteas.

You really think so? You can make ground charcoal yourself, potassium nitrate can be filtered out from fertilizer, and sulfur can be obtained from health-food stores. Do you intend to arrest people who do things in the privacy of their own home, or crack down on health-food store owners?

I've made gunpowder , we made it to use for homemade fireworks. It is difficult to make in quantity & the quality is another problem & the stuff we made sure wasn't "smokeless".

Just because you didn't know what you were doing doesn't mean it's impossible for somebody else to accomplish.

Just like casting bullets from lead, would give you low quality projectiles .

People do it all the time. A good friend of my family is a professional machinist who makes his own lead ammunition all the time. He hasn't had to buy name brand ammo in years. You make it harder for the general population to get a hold of ammunition, and you make men like him that much richer.

Hell, my father has a reloading machine for shotgun shells in the attic. We could go into business with the guy and make big bucks if we wanted. What are you going to do, say we can't buy steel nails by the pound anymore?

Making ammunition harder to acquire, could deter some people.

So what are you going to do about the ammo already in the hands of the civilian populace?

IF we want to assume anyone can make bullets, let us not forget they could then just start making their own guns !

Why would they do that when there's 300 million guns already in circulation that you legally cannot touch?

At 12/16/12 09:13 PM, Jackotrades wrote: You can make the point that 'criminals will still gain the means or find a different route' but why speed up the process?

Who here is arguing that the process be sped up?

Even if this bastard had to wait another day because he couldn't access the guns sooner,

He stole his mother's guns, he did not buy them himself.

And before anybody comes back at me and says "well maybe if she had them locked up properly," need I remind you that the guns our very own Jeff Weise used in the Red Lake Minissota shootings were properly locked up, but the kid had access to them anyway?

------

You now what disgusts me about this discussion? It's the same stupid and shallow "OMG THE HUMANITY!!!" knee-jerk reaction every time the subject comes up; legislate against the guns, make it difficult for people to get their hands on guns. Guns are not a perishable product; they don't simply "expire" and get thrown out after a couple of weeks the way milk or eggs do. They are cast of solid steel and iron, and they are made to last. Just because you make it harder to get a hold of a new one doesn't mean you make it impossible to get hold of a used one from a private citizen. Bootleggers made big bank during prohibition, drug dealers make big bank on "The War on Drugs," private citizens will make big bank off their banned guns during the ban.

You guys go through this same bullshit emotional appeal arguments every time, all the while ignoring the fact that your ideas have been shown to be complete crap and the laws you propose are a joke at best. Your idea of solving the problem is throwing a bullshit bill at it and hoping for the best, like Diane Finestein's attempt to reintroduce an Assault Weapons Ban like the one she championed in 1994 (and guess what? It's not going to be retroactive, either, meaning guns banned by the bill will still be legal to possess and sell, just like the original ban). If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result, then the whole lot of you who propose the anti-gun policies are just as cracked as the spree shooters.

If you want to solve the problem of gun violence, then you're going to have to approach the issue from a different angle and let go of your long held liberal ideologies. The guns are here to stay, and any legislation you try to pass on the matter Otherwise, we're just going to run around in circles on this issue until the day we die, and this issue will never be solved.


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