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Guess What? Another Mass Shooting

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Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 18:52:05 Reply

At 12/14/12 06:47 PM, JMHX wrote: In seriousness, can I get us to agree that the current lack of registration, mental health screening and background checking in the gun market now is a serious problem that needs to be fixed?

they do two background checks when you purchase a firearm by FFL dealers a State And FEDERAL background check. if anything comes up they will know about it EVEN PARKING TICKETS. mental health maybe but thats a social issue that cause gun violence not guns themselves.

leanlifter1
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 18:56:56 Reply

At 12/14/12 06:52 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
At 12/14/12 06:47 PM, JMHX wrote: In seriousness, can I get us to agree that the current lack of registration, mental health screening and background checking in the gun market now is a serious problem that needs to be fixed?
mental health maybe but thats a social issue that cause gun violence not guns themselves.

What a sociopathic why to mitigate responsibility of gun ownership. Gun Ownership is not an inherent "natural right" it is a "legal right" imposed and upheld by the same legal system that can legally throw you into a fema camp just under suspicion.


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JMHX
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 19:00:00 Reply

At 12/14/12 06:52 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
they do two background checks when you purchase a firearm by FFL dealers a State And FEDERAL background check. if anything comes up they will know about it EVEN PARKING TICKETS. mental health maybe but thats a social issue that cause gun violence not guns themselves.

As far as it goes. The majority of American guns are sold secondhand at gun shows. I have personally walked into gun shows in Virginia and walked out with a weapon without a background check or any questions about my background or mental history. This is a gigantic and unacknowledged loophole.


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Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 19:01:52 Reply

At 12/14/12 06:56 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: What a sociopathic why to mitigate responsibility of gun ownership. Gun Ownership is not an inherent "natural right" it is a "legal right" imposed and upheld by the

if your a felon ya you forfeited your right to own firearms but if your straight-and-narrow like me and 99% of other firearm owners we have no problem

same legal system that can legally throw you into a fema camp just under suspicion.

enough of of the conspiracy bullshit.

scoutthesoldier
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 19:06:36 Reply

How did the kid even get the gun?


That Scout is a Soldier!

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 19:10:15 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:06 PM, scoutthesoldier wrote: How did the kid even get the gun?
How did the kid
did the kid
the kid
kid

What.


Even the most righteous, logically sound individuals are subject to poor reasoning skills and deluded mindsets.

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Earfetish
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 19:14:25 Reply

At 12/14/12 04:55 PM, JMHX wrote: Britain's gun violence rate is 40 times less than America. Strong gun laws.

we have way more violent crime tho

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 19:17:49 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:14 PM, Earfetish wrote:
At 12/14/12 04:55 PM, JMHX wrote: Britain's gun violence rate is 40 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
we have way more violent crime tho

HA see, and I can't believe seppuku was used in an attempt to justify Japan's suicide rate.

Camarohusky
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 19:48:06 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:17 PM, Ceratisa wrote: HA see, and I can't believe seppuku was used in an attempt to justify Japan's suicide rate.

Japan's suicide rate has nothing to do with seppku, though the high Japanese suicide rate is very culture related.

The culture in Japan is very rigid. People are expected to be a part of a community of sorts (a social group, company, town, and so on). However, the Japanese as a people are not the most welcoming to outsiders, even if it means outsiders to their little social clique. So when someone loses their community they become an outcast and really have nowhere to go.

The Japanese also have a very different view of failure than the West does. The West views failure as a negative, but Western cultures also love the redemption story. In many ways, a Westerner would look upon a redeemed person with better views than one who has never tasted failure at all. Japan has no such redemption culture. When a Japanese person fails they lose a status they will never gain back.

In Japan, failure can cost someone their place in a community. Conversely when a person loses their community they are though of as a failure. It becomes a sad cycle leading toward many suicides. The younger generation is slowly changing this, but that attempt to change this has created its own pressures.

Slap on a 20 year economic stall for the former #1 economy, and you have a recipe for suicide.

TheMason
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 21:25:48 Reply

At 12/14/12 06:20 PM, Feoric wrote:
At 12/14/12 05:58 PM, TheMason wrote: "emotionally fueled drivel"
This is exactly what I'm talking about.

No Feoric, I'm not going to let you get away with shamelessly dipping your shirt in the blood of innocent kids.

Your comments concerning how many Kindergarteners have to die was tasteless and vile fear mongering.

Your later comments about 'bullshit' arguments and the second amendment is why Revo's challenge to me about 'arguing the other side' is silly. I understand and empathize with your position. And I do acknowledge that it is based upon assumptions that are both reasonable and logical. And I honestly respect the other side's positon.

The problem is, reasonable and logical assumptions do not equal truth. Your side spouts statistics that are descriptive and lack any depth of statistical analysis. Because it makes sense on paper and there is a correlation...it must be true. But you forget that correlation does not mean causation. That multiple academic, peer reviewed studies published in credible journals show that actually our rate of murders and violent crime are not outside of normal limits.

That numerous psychological studies conclude (and again...peer reviewed, scientific studies) that people who are suicidal will find another means to kill themselves.

Killing sprees are no different. These people will find ways to kill many even if they do not have guns. By chasing the guns you are treating a symptom and not the cause which is malpractice.

But instead of looking at both sides of the argument you dismiss one side as ignorant or stupid, all the while lifting yourself above as somehow smarter or more enlightened. And this is why Revo is so totally wrong. It is not a guy like me who has dealt with this issue intimately in his personal life; I get it and understand your points and your argument.

Too bad you have your mind, and heart, closed to those with differing arguments and better data.


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theburningliberal
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 22:06:23 Reply

At 12/14/12 02:20 PM, poxpower wrote: LOOK MAN

If you ban guns, criminals will just get them illegally! And we'll be defenseless!

I am a redneck, and I need my gun. I have prevented 20 robberies and 12 mass shootings thanks to my gun, which I also use for hunting, fishing and driving.

How exactly does your gun help you drive? More to the point, as you yourself mention, that is just a small percentage of overall crime. I still contend that while some gun control measures may help on a small scale, the root of the problem is larger than just the availability of guns. We have had at least two nationally known shootings this year where the gunman was known to have severe mental illness, and yet he was still able to acquire guns. In Aurora, I believe those guns were purchased by the shooter over the internet, and in CT, I believe the gun was borrowed from a family member (may be wrong about that, but I believe that is what I heard). The first we can control for to some degree, but that still leaves open the question of how to prevent mentally ill persons from acquiring guns from friends/family. Education is an option I think we can all agree on (PSA's encouraging people who know people at risk for such behavior to lock up guns/ammo to prevent unauthorized use)... But what else can we add to that? Is there another viable way to prevent guns from ending up in the hands of people who would use them to commit acts of mass violence?

Statistics show that guns prevent 500 million crimes every year in the USA. This would suggest that the US has a crime rate far above any other country on the planet, which is TRUE because; look at how many people we have jailed!

I haven't seen any statistics like that... Although you sound very much like Ann Coulter... "Guns are the best way to stop gun violence." smh...

If you disarm people, then the government will take over. They will steal our gold!

Right... Because this has happened in every other industrialized nation that has stricter gun control laws than we do...

TheMason
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 22:10:29 Reply

At 12/14/12 04:55 PM, JMHX wrote: Britain's gun violence rate is 40 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
Japan's gun violence rate is 30 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
Germany's gun violence rate is 20 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
America's gun violence rate is equal to America's. Weak gun laws.

Sorry JMHX...but that's the kind of bullshit argument that I'm talking about.

America:
Demographics:
White: 72.4%
Hispanic: 16.3%
Black: 12.6%
Population:
313 million
Education:
Graduate high school: 84.6%
Poverty level:
15.1%

Japan:
Demographics:
Japanese: 98.5%
Korean: 0.5%
Chinese: 0.4%
Population:
128 million
Education:
Graduate high school: 92%
Poverty level:
15.7%

UK:
Demographics:
White: 92.1%
Population:
62 million
Education:
Graduate high school: 91%
Poverty level:
22%

Germany:
Demographics:
White: 88%
Population:
82 million
Education:
Graduate high school: 91%
Poverty level:
15.5%

I'll start with the chink in my armor. Most Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development countries have poverty rates around 11%. So I expected your three examples to be about 5-6% lower than the US' since poverty is shown to have more of a causative effect on crime rates. Good guesses on your part!

But look at the other numbers. In those countries you have more significant numbers of students graduating high school. You have much smaller populations, and you have ethnic homogeny...all of which strongly point to lower crime rates.

All of these play higher role in violent crime than the availability of firearms.

Now I get it, you've put out some nice statistics that paint the picture you want. But it just relies on data that could be used to show trends. Unfortunately, this is where the pro-gun control argument breaks down because when you start looking at trends and pesky things like standard deviations...the picture falls apart.


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Feoric
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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 22:13:04 Reply

At 12/14/12 09:25 PM, TheMason wrote: No Feoric, I'm not going to let you get away with shamelessly dipping your shirt in the blood of innocent kids.

Your comments concerning how many Kindergarteners have to die was tasteless and vile fear mongering.

No, it wasn't. It was a response to this:

At 12/14/12 02:39 PM, adrshepard wrote: Or it's because mass shootings like this account for about 100 deaths per year, or about 1% of all gun-related homicides.

I'm taking his point to it's logical extreme. If the main crux of his argument is that the statistical percentage of what the total number of casualties incurred during mass shooting sprees is so low that it doesn't warrant a change in gun control laws, my question is how high does it have to be in order for you to be in favor of new/modified laws? How many events like this does it take? It's an honest question, and if it sounds silly to you, well, good, because it's in response to an absolutely ridiculous argument.

Your later comments about 'bullshit' arguments and the second amendment is why Revo's challenge to me about 'arguing the other side' is silly. I understand and empathize with your position. And I do acknowledge that it is based upon assumptions that are both reasonable and logical. And I honestly respect the other side's positon.

You're assuming what my positions are based on your experience of talking to others, which is something you shouldn't do during a discussion. I'd like to think my position on the issue of gun control is as pragmatical as possible. I would like to see much stricter gun control laws. I'd love to see a ban on gun shows. I'd love to see a general ban on firearms in general. But that is never ever ever going to happen in this country. The second amendment is there. It's in the constitution. Both parties love guns. The NRA is a powerful gun lobby that has wide reaching influence on legislation and public opinion with respect to guns. It's a deeply rooted part of American culture. Those are the cards that have been dealt, and it's a shitty hand. So I don't bother with it. It's a stubborn cow and it's not going anywhere.

Instead I focus more on mental healthcare funding. There's relatively low political hazard in supporting it, has a decent chance of having bipartisan support, and something the public will poll in favor of, and, more importantly, it's likely to save more lives than any sort of weak toothless bullshit bill that is able to get to the President's desk with the current and foreseeable political climate. I think it's a shame that it takes having 20 kindergartners to force people into seriously discussing this. It honestly concerns me when these events occur and I hear people shrug it off by saying "eh, well, guns don't kill people, people do" or the infamous "just give teachers guns!" Quick, there's a fire! Throw grease on it! It's as if those kinds of points bring any sort of meaningful discussion to the table, and it says a lot about our general attitude about guns in this country.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 22:32:48 Reply

At 12/14/12 10:10 PM, TheMason wrote:
At 12/14/12 04:55 PM, JMHX wrote: Britain's gun violence rate is 40 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
Japan's gun violence rate is 30 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
Germany's gun violence rate is 20 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
America's gun violence rate is equal to America's. Weak gun laws.
Sorry JMHX...but that's the kind of bullshit argument that I'm talking about.

Gish Galloping some unrelated data.

So let's get this straight, your logical train:

1. I present statistical cases where nations with gun controls have lower gun crime rates.
2. You respond with statistics showing national poverty levels
3. You blow past my point about gun controls
4. Make a point that isn't relevant to my gun control and crime statistics.
5. B-B-But Poverty!

Address the gun laws.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 22:43:07 Reply

At 12/14/12 06:47 PM, JMHX wrote: In seriousness, can I get us to agree that the current lack of registration, mental health screening and background checking in the gun market now is a serious problem that needs to be fixed? I'm not proposing any ban on guns, and as a gun owner myself I respect the ideals of the Second Amendment. But I'm certain the Founders never intended children to die because a lunatic purchased a weapon.

I don't think registration will work. Look at Canada, they have firearms registration and by and large it is recognized as an expensive failure of policy. And there are mass shootings there as well...and remember in Canada you have to call the police and tell them when you are transporting your gun to and from the range and you're required to take the most direct route (as reported to me by my gun-toting Canadian friend...please correct me if I'm wrong).

And no...I don't think that a lack of background checking is a problem. I've been to gun shows too and bought guns there...and all but one (I bought it off a guy selling his private firearm) I purchased from FFL holding dealers. Gun shows is a father/son thing I do with my dad and together we've probably bought 20 firearms. All from FFL dealers. Furthermore, in 2011 there were 14 million guns sold in the US based upon FBI background checks and retailer polling. I seriously doubt the person-to-person transfers you describe are that significant of a percentage of that 14 million. But numbers will convince me otherwise.

And finally mental health...
Quantitative psychology tells us that the availability of firearms do not play a significant role in suicides...and therefore will not impact suicide rates. And in terms of spree shooters...their goal is to kill and/or terrorize people. And just like people who are suicidal...there are things are just as easy to make and just as lethal. So no...I don't think any lives will be saved nor deaths made less gruesome.

In the case of my ex-brother-in-law, he was already planning to make HME. It would not have been difficult for him to change from a firearm mix to a full HME attack on the school. Furthermore, he was looking at things like the Anarchist's Cookbook which told him how to make chemical and biological weapons. It is perverse and disgusting...but I believe that stricter gun control measures could force these psychos into pursuing tactics that would be much more lethal and horrible than a mass shooting.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 22:52:23 Reply

At 12/14/12 10:32 PM, JMHX wrote:
Gish Galloping some unrelated data.
So let's get this straight, your logical train:

A logical train based upon training in analyzing social science statistics and data. As well as an understand of social science methodology.


1. I present statistical cases where nations with gun controls have lower gun crime rates.

Yep.

2. You respond with statistics showing national poverty levels

Along with demographics, populations, and educational attainment.

3. You blow past my point about gun controls

Not really. I'm just pointing out that by just focusing on one variable you are making an assumption that this correlation also means causation. That you're just looking at one variable, which means your conclusion is suspect from a scientific standpoint due to the lack of any rival alternative hypothesis.

I'm just following sound scientific practice.

4. Make a point that isn't relevant to my gun control and crime statistics.

Actually, considering that I'm pointing out factors that in study after study (in peer reviewed journals) are shown to actually have causative effect on crime. Gun control laws on the other hand, do not have such an effect. Afterall I could point out Israel and the Swiss who also have lax gun control laws and yet have exceptionally low crime...as well as Mexico which has very strong gun control laws but their non-firearm murder rate is higher than our total murder rate.

Crime does not come from the availability or non-availability of guns. Instead, it comes from a complex interplay of factors such as education, poverty rates, and ethnic diversity.

The point is that your point that gun control is relevant to crime statistics is false.

5. B-B-But Poverty!

Tell me...is it comforting to have your head buried in the sand?


Address the gun laws.

I did, the point is any serious statistical analysis past just the descriptive stats you original posted show that it is other factors that cause those low or high crime rates.

Gun laws have little to no statistical effect.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 22:59:30 Reply

At 12/14/12 04:55 PM, JMHX wrote:
Britain's gun violence rate is 40 times less than America. Strong gun laws.

And American is a far large country then GB, do the math.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 23:26:00 Reply

At 12/14/12 09:00 PM, RightWingGamer wrote:
At 12/14/12 06:47 PM, JMHX wrote:
If you require mental health checks for prospective gun owners, it's not going to stop crazies from owning guns, it's going to stop them from getting help.

This doesn't make any sense. The Doctor can just tell people if you're mentally stable enough for guns or not, much like how they tell people whether you should be playing sports or not.

They will either not see a psychiatrist, or, if it's mandated, lie to the psychiatrist so that they can get a gun. It won't solve anything, only completely defeat the purpose of confidentiality and create a whole new can of worms for mental health professionals.

So you think people who are trained in psychology (psychiatrist is the one who prescribes drugs but I'm going to assume you meant psychologist) will not be able to tell if someone is lying to them and will have a hard time trying to understand people. I guess we should stop hiring psychologists whose only credentials is telling their girlfryands that their man is cheating on them.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 23:27:31 Reply

At 12/14/12 10:59 PM, CaptainCornhole wrote:
At 12/14/12 04:55 PM, JMHX wrote:
Britain's gun violence rate is 40 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
And American is a far large country then GB, do the math.

No, it's per capita, it's a rate. Thus it's fair if the only factor was America being a larger country. But America also has other problems especially the whole inner city problem with white flight crippling those local governments.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 23:33:53 Reply

At 12/14/12 10:10 PM, TheMason wrote:
You have much smaller populations,

Why would THAT matter? If anything, the population density in those areas is HIGHER, which is what would really matter if population was a factor.

and you have ethnic homogeny...

Wait, according to you, violence is mostly committed between races / for racial reasons?
Or is what you're saying basically "we have more black people and Hispanics"?

I'm still undecided on the gun question to be honest, but that's probably because I've yet to delve deeply into it. There are such giant pro-gun lobbies in the US who probably have polluted the data stream with endless shit studies and articles.
But that's just a guess, I haven't actually looked at all the data and the debates.

I just see a damning trend: Pro-gun people are usually also wrong on almost every issue, from economics to science, law and religion.

So there's also THAT, which makes me skeptical of their position. But of course, this is just an observation.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 23:53:01 Reply

At 12/14/12 11:33 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 12/14/12 10:10 PM, TheMason wrote:
You have much smaller populations,
Why would THAT matter? If anything, the population density in those areas is HIGHER, which is what would really matter if population was a factor.

It tends to make a difference in the variables that truly matter such as education and economic opportunities. There is less stress put on these systems.


and you have ethnic homogeny...
Wait, according to you, violence is mostly committed between races / for racial reasons?
Or is what you're saying basically "we have more black people and Hispanics"?

The actual term is Ethnolinquistic Fractionalization or ELF (seriously....I'm not making that up!). But there are several ways that a high ELF indice causes increased violence:

A) There are racial/ethnic tensions that cause increased violence and crime. We've seen that in our nation's past. The vast majority of gun control efforts in the US have had racist origins to keep blacks from owning firearms in the South to defend themselves against the KKK and lynch mobs.

B) Often there are races that are significantly underpriviledged or otherwise discriminated against. This leads to a second class of citizens that have reduced economic and educational opportunities and therefore resort to criminal or other socially undesireable occupations. Combine this with our prison system that punishes instead of rehabilitates (and, unintentionally, incubate criminals)...and racial problems lead to a cycle of violence.


I'm still undecided on the gun question to be honest, but that's probably because I've yet to delve deeply into it. There are such giant pro-gun lobbies in the US who probably have polluted the data stream with endless shit studies and articles.

That's why I look at academic journals instead of the drek that's posted on NRA and Handgun Control Inc web sites and publications. :)

But that's just a guess, I haven't actually looked at all the data and the debates.

I just see a damning trend: Pro-gun people are usually also wrong on almost every issue, from economics to science, law and religion.

Wow...and people think I'm a pompous, arrogant windbag! ;) Must be good to be Mod!


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-14 23:56:33 Reply

At 12/14/12 11:27 PM, Warforger wrote:
At 12/14/12 10:59 PM, CaptainCornhole wrote:
At 12/14/12 04:55 PM, JMHX wrote:
Britain's gun violence rate is 40 times less than America. Strong gun laws.
And American is a far large country then GB, do the math.
No, it's per capita, it's a rate. Thus it's fair if the only factor was America being a larger country. But America also has other problems especially the whole inner city problem with white flight crippling those local governments.

Population size can also effect the ability of a government to deliver goods. A smaller population puts less stress on government resources. This in turn effects other variables that have been proven to be more directly related to the incidence of crime than gun control laws.

Also, a higher population density can also be good especially for crime. While living so close to other may increase interpersonal frictions...it makes policing so much easier.

Ergo your point about per capita is not really relevant as to whether or not population size is important.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 00:00:59 Reply

If you take away guns they will just find another way....an older way like knives, bows, explosives, fire, you name it.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 00:19:10 Reply

At 12/15/12 12:00 AM, JosephStarr wrote: If you take away guns they will just find another way....an older way like knives, bows, explosives, fire, you name it.

Personally I'd love to whip out duel katanas and go to town hunting hunters... it's more than fair game.

Thing is if you tell a nut job that the world is going to end they're going to fucking believe it. Fucking dooms day prepers are the purist of all nut jobs, they're waiting for the day they can use their arsenal on you for their so called "survival". Good news though, it's only after the nuclear holocaust.


Once upon a time...

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 00:30:22 Reply

At 12/14/12 11:53 PM, TheMason wrote:
It tends to make a difference in the variables that truly matter such as education and economic opportunities. There is less stress put on these systems.

But that doesn't make sense since those systems are funded in proportion to the population. There isn't a limited supply of education in the world. Similarly with economic opportunities. In fact you probably have more of those when population increases.

You should just drop this lol it really makes no sense.

The actual term is Ethnolinquistic Fractionalization or ELF (seriously....I'm not making that up!). But there are several ways that a high ELF indice causes increased violence:

Well I'm looking at the sheet and honestly I fail to see it explain your theory. Canada (0.77) has a higher ELF rating than the USA (0.58)., in fact Canada's is one of the highest in the world. Japan (0.01) is almost nothing, while the UK (0.39) and Germany ( 0.11) are also very different.

The ELF data seems to be all over the place if you compare it with the number of gun deaths per 100 000 people: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homi cides-ownership-world-list

I'm not saying it can't explain anything, but I doubt it's a major factor.

Anyway, the data is all over the place on guns. Seems like for any example, you can find a counter example somewhere.

At the end of the day, I'd say the US probably has more important problems to attend to, for instance it seems twice as many people commit suicide as die in homicides.

I dunno. Humans are just wired to be scared of unpredictable causes of death like tornadoes, plane crashes, shark attacks, shootouts but are complacent in the face of non-accidental causes that are far more dangerous like diabetes, heart disease or lung cancer.
If the media airtime was proportional to the number of deaths, we'd NEVER hear about school shootings on national tv.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 01:38:00 Reply

At 12/14/12 11:56 PM, TheMason wrote: Population size can also effect the ability of a government to deliver goods. A smaller population puts less stress on government resources. This in turn effects other variables that have been proven to be more directly related to the incidence of crime than gun control laws.

It depends on the population. If the population is big it can also mean a bigger income. Size alone doesn't make a difference, in Japan for example while the population is huge a very good chunk of it are retired seniors who aren't paying taxes. Basically government has as much resources as people paying taxes.

Also, a higher population density can also be good especially for crime. While living so close to other may increase interpersonal frictions...it makes policing so much easier.

But that's not much of a difference between the UK and the US then?

Ergo your point about per capita is not really relevant as to whether or not population size is important.

My point was that using rates was fair while the guy I was responding to said it wasn't because America is bigger.


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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 03:16:32 Reply

At 12/15/12 12:00 AM, JosephStarr wrote: If you take away guns they will just find another way....an older way like knives, bows, explosives, fire, you name it.

Even if you outlaw handguns and hunting rifles or whatever, there are so many guns already floating around in the US that any meaningful gun control law would be administratively impossible, let alone the political ramifications required to pass such legislation to begin with. The country was designed to not have this happen. This is what we have to work with, and there's little wiggle room to enact meaningful gun control legislation without a blatant violation of the constitution. I wish I could just get a red pen and cross out the second amendment, but that's not how it works, nor should it. Barring another constitutional amendment, it has to be respected and upheld in the courts. The trick isn't to take it away, it's to make it expensive and/or harder to obtain while still respecting your right as an American citizen.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 09:28:57 Reply

According to the figures released yesterday, 3.6 per cent of the population of England and Wales were victims of violent crime in 1999 - second only to Australia, where the figure was 4.1 per cent.
Scotland had a slightly lower rate of violence, at 3.4 per cent.
In the U.S., only 2 per cent of the population suffered an assault or robbery.
One in 40 people in England and Wales had their cars stolen in 1999, the highest rate in the 17 developed countries examined.
Just one in 200 Americans suffered a car theft while in Japan there was only one per 1,000 of the population.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-
worse-Britain-US.html#ixzz2F8Am29jo

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 09:38:02 Reply

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade

ooh my.

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Response to Guess What? Another Mass Shooting 2012-12-15 09:45:26 Reply

Maybe Chris Rock had the right idea.

Make bullets a thousand dollars each.
THen people who own guns would probably only have 1 or 2 bullets.

You could own several guns, as long as they were the same calibre you'd still just need to own a few bullets .

With bullets being so expensive, no 20 year old could afford the ammunition needed to kill 28 people !


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