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School shooting, 27 people dead

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Gagsy
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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 19:38:35 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:31 PM, Ceratisa wrote:
So you would rather people are stripped of the ability to defend themselves when people like this exist? Easy access? A lot of this is done by people who don't even own the weapon.

We manage fine in the UK by not carrying guns with us in order to 'feel safe'.

Ok sure, say they do not own the guns they use for mass shootings, but you cannot deny that it is far easier for them still to obtain these weapons, and not just little pea shooters, but proper rifles and such, much much easier than say me here.


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Gagsy
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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 19:40:16 Reply

Sorry America. This stuff just makes me so mad, and sad due it being children. Its just not right at all how anyone can be able to do that if they want to.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 19:48:28 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:40 PM, Gagsy wrote: Sorry America. This stuff just makes me so mad, and sad due it being children. Its just not right at all how anyone can be able to do that if they want to.

You have more violent crime though. In the end this is really about mental health. People are slipping through the system who need help.

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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 19:51:13 Reply

At 12/14/12 01:11 PM, MikeyS9607 wrote: I bet everyone will blame it on the internet and cyber bullying or violent video games.

This


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 19:54:30 Reply

As I've been saying to people around me almost all day, banning guns outright will not help, and may in fact do a lot more harm than most people realize. If the right person was outside the classroom, such as an armed guard or cop, just as this was going on, his or her gun could have been used for the better in effect by killing the shooter early and saving many lives. It all comes down to, again, blaming the perp and not the gun since guns don't have minds of their own.

Still, it's far too early to know whether any significant changes in gun legislation will come up as a result of this. You have countries like Japan with strict gun laws and very low homicide rates every year, but then you have other countries like Mexico, which like Japan, also has strict gun laws but way more murders and overall crime.

Culture plays a very important role here. And sadly, no matter what we do, even if we illegalize guns by way of repealing the 2nd Amendment, we're still going to have to deal with tragedies close to this or even worse. Major cultural shifts where most people would move away from being inclined to engage in mass shooting sprees take a LONG time, if ever. In any case, there's no good reason why this piece of human filth did what he did, and the best decision he ever made in his miserable life was ending it.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 19:55:27 Reply

I think it's perfectly logical to take people like this and use them for involuntary medical experimentation. That way, the victims are being satisfied, and society benefits.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:04:29 Reply

What the freakin' hell? I swear, these psychos that pull this crap need to be severely tortured for being this thoughtless.
They either are oblivious to the fact that they've destroyed several families as a result of their actions, or they simply don't care. To the families who were affected by this, and anything similar, you have my utmost condolences.

In regards to gun control, that sort of thing will never work. There will always be some nutcase who ends up getting their hands on a gun and the ones who truly suffer are the law-abiding citizens.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:05:53 Reply

Media blames the wrong guy, everyone sees that he likes the Mass Effect page, then mindlessly attack it.

School shooting, 27 people dead


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:07:09 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:55 PM, ngmastah wrote: I think it's perfectly logical to take people like this and use them for involuntary medical experimentation. That way, the victims are being satisfied, and society benefits.

People like the shooter though will never see the court since they usually kill themselves after the crime happened. We could use that Anders guy in Norway but the law over there makes it so he spends the rest of his life in what amounts to a hotel room as a sentence for his crime that's besides the point though.

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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:14:35 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:48 PM, Ceratisa wrote:
You have more violent crime though. In the end this is really about mental health. People are slipping through the system who need help.

Thats a fair enough comment but many people do go unchecked in many countries when it comes to mental health. Its especially hard as seemingly some people just seem to snap out of nowhere. They seem perfectly fine to everyone including family and then something happens and they lose it. Them being able to obtain the weaponry to kill large groups of people doesn't reflect well on the health system sure but still not well on the actual gun law either.

Also I don't understand why pro gun people are using the Chinese stabbing as a resource for their belief that this tragedy would be just as bad with the use of a knife. Fact is 27 (or 28 is it now?) people, including children are dead from gunshot and attack in China had no fatal casualties from stabbing. If anything that event reflects badly on guns further.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:19:29 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:14 PM, Gagsy wrote: Also I don't understand why pro gun people are using the Chinese stabbing as a resource for their belief that this tragedy would be just as bad with the use of a knife. Fact is 27 (or 28 is it now?) people, including children are dead from gunshot and attack in China had no fatal casualties from stabbing. If anything that event reflects badly on guns further.

Because if people want to go crazy and hurt multiple people, they will. There's plenty of shootings where the person takes multiple gunshot wounds and they come out fine, much like there are plenty of knifings where one stab is all it takes to end the life.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:20:16 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:54 PM, GoryBlizzard wrote: As I've been saying to people around me almost all day, banning guns outright will not help, and may in fact do a lot more harm than most people realize. If the right person was outside the classroom, such as an armed guard or cop, just as this was going on, his or her gun could have been used for the better in effect by killing the shooter early and saving many lives. It all comes down to, again, blaming the perp and not the gun since guns don't have minds of their own.

Still, it's far too early to know whether any significant changes in gun legislation will come up as a result of this. You have countries like Japan with strict gun laws and very low homicide rates every year, but then you have other countries like Mexico, which like Japan, also has strict gun laws but way more murders and overall crime.

Culture plays a very important role here. And sadly, no matter what we do, even if we illegalize guns by way of repealing the 2nd Amendment, we're still going to have to deal with tragedies close to this or even worse. Major cultural shifts where most people would move away from being inclined to engage in mass shooting sprees take a LONG time, if ever. In any case, there's no good reason why this piece of human filth did what he did, and the best decision he ever made in his miserable life was ending it.

I understand where you're coming from when you tell me that a gun can't make the decision to kill. But guns can't really be compared to tools or anything else that possesses an ambiguous function. Guns are designed primarily to kill, be it animals or people. And I don't believe that it's necessary to potentially allow dangerous people to possess these weapons in the first place.

I still believe that we should give hunting rifles and such the same kind of availability, but limit the owning of semi-automatic rifles purely because of the danger they pose to society. The use of a hunting rifle can be argued, you can claim that you want to hunt, which is a perfectly logical argument. But with semi-automatic rifles, there is no other function, these are weapons that are designed to kill, and we're just giving them to anyone. We cannot give so many people the responsibility of using one of these weapons, they're fast, automatic, and easy to use, in the wrong hands, these weapons can kill vast amounts of people in a short time. Another thing is, we're not stripping anyone of any special rights here when we inhibit the use of such firearms, you can't argue that you use an AR-15 to hunt deer, nor can you say that it's logical to go duck hunting with an M16. No, the only fairly valid reason for owning these weapons (other than taking another person's life) is either a) collection b) shooting inanimate objects. And yet, these two reasons are not valid enough to favor the continued legalization of such guns. To take away someone's right to shoot watermelon in their backyard with an M16 isn't really all that bad, you're not infringing on an inherent human right, and in a way, you're saving someone from losing the one right that is universal to all; the right to live.

So I do agree with you in some aspects. Yes, it is people that are causing these shootings in the first place, but had they possessed an alternate weapon because semi-automatic rifles were not available to them, then perhaps the number of deaths would have been much lower. This is why I believe that banning such rifles is the best course of action concerning these kinds of killings.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:21:07 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:54 PM, GoryBlizzard wrote: Culture plays a very important role here. And sadly, no matter what we do, even if we illegalize guns by way of repealing the 2nd Amendment, we're still going to have to deal with tragedies close to this or even worse. Major cultural shifts where most people would move away from being inclined to engage in mass shooting sprees take a LONG time, if ever.

This. Having a freely available supply of firearms doesn't help IMO, but at the end of the day, triggers don't pull themselves. The biggest warehouse of guns and ammunition in the world wouldn't be the least bit dangerous if no-one wanted to ever use any of it.

I think America stuck itself into a bit of a rut with that 2nd amendment. By now there are so many guns in circulation that even if it was repealed, it'd take decades to track down and remove all of the guns people legally bought, and even longer to get rid of those that went off the radar (like what's usually used to cause this kind of shit). Ergo, there'd be a point where the only people still in possession of a gun are exactly the ones who would do others willful harm with it, thereby proving the old adage: "If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns.". Keeping the laws the same won't solve the current problems, and changing them would almost certainly swap the current ones for a set of new issues, so you can't really win here.

Changing the way a population views guns is arguably a better approach than trying to get rid of them; with current public opinions, people would probably just go out and buy them illegally anyway because they feel guns grant a sense of security, and protecting themselves and their families is more important to them than adhering to the letter of the law.

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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:22:32 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:19 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
At 12/14/12 08:14 PM, Gagsy wrote: Also I don't understand why pro gun people are using the Chinese stabbing as a resource for their belief that this tragedy would be just as bad with the use of a knife. Fact is 27 (or 28 is it now?) people, including children are dead from gunshot and attack in China had no fatal casualties from stabbing. If anything that event reflects badly on guns further.
Because if people want to go crazy and hurt multiple people, they will. There's plenty of shootings where the person takes multiple gunshot wounds and they come out fine, much like there are plenty of knifings where one stab is all it takes to end the life.

And that's why we can't give these crazy people the kind of weapon that allows them to kill so easily. Had this psychopath used a knife or maybe even a hunting rifle, then perhaps more lives could have been saved.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:23:05 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:19 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
Because if people want to go crazy and hurt multiple people, they will. There's plenty of shootings where the person takes multiple gunshot wounds and they come out fine, much like there are plenty of knifings where one stab is all it takes to end the life.

Yeah sure but in this case you have two similar stories (without knowing the mens reasoning or mental state) where they wanted to harm a lot of children in a school with a weapon of their choice, one using firepower, the other slashing. And the difference is 27 body bags.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:27:24 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:23 PM, Gagsy wrote: Yeah sure but in this case you have two similar stories (without knowing the mens reasoning or mental state) where they wanted to harm a lot of children in a school with a weapon of their choice, one using firepower, the other slashing. And the difference is 27 body bags.

It's been compared so much because of how close to each other the events were. If this guy made a crude explosive using any multitude of day to day things, nobody at all would have batted an eye even though they can be far more deadly. Why people don't use them if they want to cause as much harm as possible? No idea, but I'm thankful for that


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:30:26 Reply

At 12/14/12 07:31 PM, Travis wrote: Please don't turn this into a gun control topic... please.

WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO? BAN ME?


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:31:30 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:27 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
It's been compared so much because of how close to each other the events were. If this guy made a crude explosive using any multitude of day to day things, nobody at all would have batted an eye even though they can be far more deadly. Why people don't use them if they want to cause as much harm as possible? No idea, but I'm thankful for that

Probably because he didn't know how to but he knew how to get a couple of guns.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:43:46 Reply

I recall Governor Malloy or another man suggesting that "The best thing we can do is pray for the victims and their families."

Yeah, because prayer's definitely going to do something.

It's funny how every time when these tragedies occur groups of people out there assert that we need to pray in order to make things right. How much has prayer worked, exactly? Is prayer going to bring back the victims? Is prayer going to supply the victims' families with financial relief? The only benefit of prayer, I can imagine, is to make people happier and give the illusion that they are actually doing something. It puts people in the pretense of holy self-righteousness and it absolutely disgusts me that in a time like this, where 20 or so children and several adults have been killed, we try to distract ourselves thinking about how God is somehow going to resolve this bloody incident.

Where is the logic in that? If you are trying to request God's help in any way, shape, or form, do you think he would actually listen? Wouldn't you think that maybe, if he actually cared about the lives of the claimed victims, he would have intervened to prevent this whole massacre from happening in the first place?

And yet many Christians are holding communions when they could instead use all of that time and resources to work towards the families' aid nonstop. Now I realize that some of these people have helped, but if they are truly devoted to making things right they should spend all the time they have possible in order to support the families.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:44:11 Reply

I bet this guy did it to spite his mother.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:53:03 Reply

"The victims ... areƂ believed to include the school principal, teachers and young pupils aged between five and 10."

I don't know how anyone could shoot innocent children like that.

Rest in peace to all people who lost their lives in the crisis.

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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:54:53 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:43 PM, 4761 wrote: Is prayer going to supply the victims' families with financial relief?

I've been noticing a trend more and more common in America where, when something goes wrong or someone is injured, people immediately jump to "someone owes me cash money!" and they file lawsuits against anyone and everyone.

Today was a tragedy, yes - but just like prayers are not going to bring these kids back to their parents, neither is money.

Further, filing suits against the school district will have disastrous consequences for the American education system - not only will it empty the coffers of this CT school district, but all other schools around the country will have to install overbearing, expensive security measures in order to avoid claims of negligence should another shooting occur. Then 4th Amendment groups and the ACLU will file suits against schools for being too invasive in their security measures and infringing their students' rights.

The parents who've lost a child today have suffered a loss which none of us, myself included, can never understand. However, these parents are not suddenly entitled to monetary damages because of this loss.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 20:58:24 Reply

At 12/14/12 02:33 PM, NeutralObjections wrote: It's fucking disgusting. He went into a school with the sole reasons of shooting children.

What the fuck? I'm fucking filled with rage, and I feel worse because there is literally nothing I can do about it except complain on the internet.

And then killing himself? Sweet fuck. He was the most cowardly of cowards. He isn't worth being part of the dirt he will become.

I know, I felt the exact same way. I mean, its so fucking unfair but there is NOTHING you can do about it, there's no action there's no vengeance there's just: "oh well, more dust in the wind."

It pissed me off all day long, just in the worst possible mood. Oh well, he's burning in a fiery Hell, so I'll take solace in that. I guess the worst I can do to him is forget he ever existed as to make his life and doings essentially worthless. Although we still have his brother although I don't know if he was in on it. If he was, I would rather hope to have news of his death penalty soon, shame death is the worst we can do to him.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 21:01:26 Reply

I know nobody in this thread is looking for a gun control politics flame war but think about how many school shootings America has had then think about how many Canada has had.

Although I already said this in my last post, love and respect to all the victims and may the families be comforted in a surely time of need.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 21:05:27 Reply

This is a very upsetting thing, especially to children who are too young to have even attempted to enjoy life, and far too young to ave done anything against anyone else, and if they did somehow affect the person they couldn't have known what they did or done it on purpose, as they are simply too young to understand whatever was happening to them.

School shootings are very old and I usually pass them by without saying anything due to the fact they seem to happen far too regularly due to some child being unable to take being bullied with any common decency and instead lashing out like a fucking useless cunt and killing people. But to hear it was towards such children, it truly upsets me.

Ceratisa wrote:
Gagsy wrote:
Sorry America. This stuff just makes me so mad, and sad due it being children. Its just not right at all how anyone can be able to do that if they want to.
You have more violent crime though. In the end this is really about mental health. People are slipping through the system who need help.

Alas though we do indeed have crimes still it doesn't change the fact we are able to all get along with our lives without any weapons for self defence. The only guns we have are for sport and owned by a low percentage of the population and when it comes to knives and other weapons most of us have nothing with the actual capability to kill someone with. The most dangerous things the majority of us would have would be power tools, kitchen knives and perhaps some sports equipment like bats. We don't look at such things as defensive items though. Of course there are those who would go around with actual dangerous knives on their person, but usually those are the same types of people who are regularly involved in such crimes.

The United Kingdom is a very vulnerable country in terms of the population, and the lack of self defence does indeed make us more susceptible to attacks. Yet we get on with our lives without fears of being attacked which makes the needs of such things none existent. If we were to carry around dangerous weapons it would only make things worse for everyone, as there is the chance of them being used incorrectly. The biggest problem of all is the fact that, if you do carry something for self defence with you then obviously it will effect your mindset, as you will be constantly aware you have such a weapon and you are aware of the reason you have it. So you will always have the gnawing fear of having to use it. Added to the fact that when you have something you have the need to use it, and that is only going to become a growing problem. If you spend money on something you need to make the cost worth it after all, buying a sandwich toaster or a weapon it is all the same.

Of course this is how our country has grown over the centuries, we have grown up with having little to no self defence and as such our minds have all adapted to such things. If America was to suddenly throw away all the terms of self defence then there is no question to people feeling more scared and vulnerable as a result, as Americans have grown used to having that un-required protection for so long that it has become required for many of them. That is sadly how the country has grown compared to ours. And you can blame the amendment for that which people have been so quick to talk about during this thread. It would take likely several generations for the country to truly become used to having no self defence and as a result it likely isn't going to happen anytime soon. But that is the difference between us and why we as a country are able to live without protection while feeling completely safe. That and of course the view of "it won't happen to me" which is always helpful to us all, and for the majority of us is true to believe.

Of course the long text above is not to be argued about in this thread, as of course it is just a statement on our true differences and though it could be talked about I don't really see there being anything which the ever so angry posters in this thread can jump at going "STFU YOU WRONG" about which I have basically been witnessing for 2-3 pages of the total thread so far. But if you do really want to start another random argument then go to the section below in which I actually posted something with some worth to discuss, and as a result will not be discussed and instead will just be yelled at and flamed and be given threats to my life over, the usual stuff in this thread.

--

But in an actual response to the thing people are constantly mentioning in this thread, about how it is impossible to change laws due to your amendments. I have to point out that such a view is entirely fabricated. Laws naturally change it is what keeps society working. For example in England the town used to be allowed and advised to punish a wife (often to death) drowning her for speaking loudly, now we can all safely agree that a review of that law making it an illegal practice and murder / manslaughter was a good thing and that the current state of the country and its population wouldn't be as good as it is today if it was still legal and practiced.

Whether it be religious texts or countries founding principles the refusal to change something based of some ancient and clearly out of date views of society is an ignorant belief that has already held back many countries in the third world, the likes of which claims it is still legal to kill someone based off some very ancient view in the Quoran etc. (yea forgot how to spell it and spellchecker doesn't believe it exists)

I am in no way saying "let's break the amendment for making guns illegal" but I am pointing out that using such an argument is ridiculous and out of date. If the amendments contained a line that said "It is legal to slaughter any foreigner in your way." Would you still be backing that up to this day? Just because it isn't as stupid as that obviously fake example I just made up doesn't mean it is free from being changed for eternity if a need to change it did arise. What if you were invaded and they threatened to kill every single person without mercy if you didn't change the amendments, would they still not be changed? When there is a need law changes. There is no exception.

So kindly don't try and argue that it is impossible to change a law due to some foundation when it is the basis of our evolving culture to do such a thing. It was against all laws of England that Parliament took power from the Monarchy but they did it, an incredibly bloody civil war was involved but it did happen. So don't claim it is impossible as if there is some magical barrier which can't be penetrated.

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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 21:13:25 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:43 PM, 4761 wrote: I recall Governor Malloy or another man suggesting that "The best thing we can do is pray for the victims and their families."

Yeah, because prayer's definitely going to do something.

People like you, make me sick. And people who keep bringing gun laws and shit are no better. Why the fuck are you using this fucking tragedy to further push your political ideologies? If prayer is the thing they think is going to help, who the fuck are you to say it won't and that they shouldn't do something to solace the families regardless of what you believe or not? Oh wait, that's right, you're the center of the universe so anyone who doesn't believe what you do is absolutely wrong. Please fuck off.

You want a goddamn gun control discussion? You want to talk about "what we can do to prevent further events like this from happening."? Fucking lovely, why don't you take it over to the politics forums WHERE IT SHOULD BE. Not here where people should be talking about news updates and condolences for the lives lost. Seriously, some of you people make me want to throw up.


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Ragnarokia
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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 21:15:42 Reply

At 12/14/12 08:54 PM, Timmy wrote:
At 12/14/12 08:43 PM, 4761 wrote: Is prayer going to supply the victims' families with financial relief?
I've been noticing a trend more and more common in America where, when something goes wrong or someone is injured, people immediately jump to "someone owes me cash money!" and they file lawsuits against anyone and everyone.

Today was a tragedy, yes - but just like prayers are not going to bring these kids back to their parents, neither is money.

Further, filing suits against the school district will have disastrous consequences for the American education system - not only will it empty the coffers of this CT school district, but all other schools around the country will have to install overbearing, expensive security measures in order to avoid claims of negligence should another shooting occur. Then 4th Amendment groups and the ACLU will file suits against schools for being too invasive in their security measures and infringing their students' rights.

The parents who've lost a child today have suffered a loss which none of us, myself included, can never understand. However, these parents are not suddenly entitled to monetary damages because of this loss.

This is a huge problem I have with the whole "I'm going to sue you" mindset so much of society has taken in.

First off the obvious thing is that the school blatantly wasn't responsible for what happened, it wasn't like they opened the doors to a the guy saying "come in and kill our children", they had no awareness until it was too late, and though it does reflect badly on the school you cant turn around to them and sue them just because your child died in the school. What gives the person a right to honestly believe they are allowed to demand money from a victim? The school itself suffered as did the children, if anyone wants to sue them then they can frankly burn in hell along with the murderer as they obviously care more about material wealth and trying to steal it from victims more than their own child dying.

Also I agree that if the school simply isn't about to stop such an event as they already don't have the income to have such defensive measures then how the fuck would sueing them help at all? What do they think taking more money away from the educational system is going to let them improve? Such ignorance.


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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 21:16:40 Reply

Worse than Columbine, but still not as bad as Virginia Tech..

I imagine most of the rage comes from the fact that 2/3 of the victims were kids. It's only a matter of time before someone starts making jokes about this.


It's time to get pissed off.

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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 21:17:13 Reply

I take the objective view on this.

If we are allowed to have guns, then sometimes thing like this will happen, and you just have to accept it.

Yes, each death is sad, but that's life.

RacistBassist
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Response to School shooting, 27 people dead 2012-12-14 21:20:24 Reply

At 12/14/12 09:17 PM, MuyBurrito wrote: This is the time and place to discuss gun control, not the time to be ignorant. You just don't realize it yet.

Ok, let's try. Gun control is nothing but a knee jerk emotional response that doesn't address the underlying issue.


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