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unreported violence in Mich.

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Korriken
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unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 08:15 PM Reply

so I was digging through the various news websites today, and naturally, Michigan is in the news. but one thing I did notice is that only ONE website is reporting on the outbreaks of violence in the protests. The only website doing it is the one everyone absolutely abhors. that's right. Fox News.

nbc makes a 1 line mention of some "pushing and shoving" and that's it. No mention of police interference, no mention of the protestors trying to forcefully pull a female officer into the crowd (thankfully with a little pepper spray she was freed, or they might have beaten her, or worse). Also no mention of protestors destroying the property of supporters of the bill.

cnn makes no mention at all, just "how devestating" the move will be to unions which is fair to mention. but why not tell the WHOLE story?

Nothing from CBS either.

these same news organizations had no problems reporting on any and all minor tea party violence, so what's the problem with reporting on union violence?

apparently some union thug punched a guy in the face when he tripped on a tent peg, while they were trying to tear down a tent set up by Americans for Prosperity, a conservative group. why no mention of that?

Liberals hate fox news, no doubt about it, but at least Fox News will report on things the other stations will conveniently overlook.

ok liberals, time for you to get in your circle and start jerking off while calling me an idiot.


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Ceratisa
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 08:20 PM Reply

...Faux NEWZ, this is such a non story or something.. I dunno... I can't pretend to have that mindset.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 08:23 PM Reply

At 12/11/12 08:20 PM, Ceratisa wrote: ...Faux NEWZ, this is such a non story or something.. I dunno... I can't pretend to have that mindset.

I don't know, a large protest having some small violence start to happen, especially antagonistic towards security at the area, is kind of a big deal.


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Ceratisa
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 08:32 PM Reply

At 12/11/12 08:23 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
At 12/11/12 08:20 PM, Ceratisa wrote: ...Faux NEWZ, this is such a non story or something.. I dunno... I can't pretend to have that mindset.
I don't know, a large protest having some small violence start to happen, especially antagonistic towards security at the area, is kind of a big deal.

Am I WOOOOOSHING or are you WOOOOOOSHING? damn you internet and your inability to display non written communcation.

Feoric
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 08:50 PM Reply

The conversation would probably be more meaningful if you didn't feel the need to always put yourself up against the evil liberal agenda. Y'know, empty platitudes and all that.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 08:51 PM Reply

OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I understand about the law: non-union workers no longer have money taken out of their paychecks to support a union. I would consider that a GOOD thing. Also no pressure to join a union. I have mixed feelings about them. I get why unions were originally established in the 1900s, and there are some legitimate complaints unions have (e.g. Hostess), but anymore I mostly just see union thugs intimidating people into going along with their demands or union bosses living high off the hog off other people. One example I'll give: during the Verizon strike last year, some of the local union folks got busted vandalizing a phone switching station. The idea was supposed to be "Hah, you need us! No one else can fix this but us!" Funny, the interim help got it done OK.

Michigan was a state full of unions, especially the UAW. And how is Michigan's economy doing now?

...Oh, right.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 09:16 PM Reply

As a Michigan resident who has been following the story, as far as local coverage goes, the sporadic violence has, indeed been reported. And, in fact, the reason that Fox is the one reporting it nationally is because one of their own got socked... which I think is kinda funny.

www.mlive.com is a local news aggregator for the southern half of Michigan's lower peninsula. At least 2 of the stories currently on the front page are about protest incidents. Another 4-5 are covering other portions of the RTW story.

The problem with this bill is that the purported goal and the intended effect are quite different. The reason given by the pundits is that it will encourage business who may have found the local union culture too restrictive for their liking. The actual effect will be for union $$ to be severely cut while workers free-ride on Union deals, gaining all of the benefits of Union Membership without paying dues. This, in turn, will pretty heavily diminish the Union's political power... normally focused towards electing democrats (don't forget this was pushed though a heavily Republican State congress, without public input, very quickly). While weakening the unions may, indeed, spur some eventual growth in local investment, that's not the whole story.

two birds, and all that...

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 10:19 PM Reply

At 12/11/12 08:15 PM, Korriken wrote: ok liberals, time for you to get in your circle and start jerking off while calling me an idiot.

lolz. You link to some guy getting punched. The way you make it sound it's like they're rioting. Otherwise why do you people try to antagonize Liberals? Liberals don't do that on here, they don't go around addressing "Hey Conservatives, prove Fox news isn't biased". Furthermore most Liberals on here don't even watch those news stations you reference, so you're not addressing anyone here, but they go after Fox news because they say really stupid stuff.


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Feoric
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 10:32 PM Reply

At 12/11/12 08:51 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote: Michigan was a state full of unions, especially the UAW.

That's the point. Americans for Prosperity didn't just pick Michigan out of a hat. Right to work legislation being passed there would be pretty symbolic, and a major fuck you to the birthplace of the auto labor movement.

It's worth mentioning that Rick Snyder was originally opposed to the legislation, but then he changed his mind last minute. Why? Here's your answer.

At 12/11/12 08:15 PM, Korriken wrote: apparently some union thug punched a guy in the face when he tripped on a tent peg, while they were trying to tear down a tent set up by Americans for Prosperity, a conservative group. why no mention of that?

Psychologist: Agent.
James Bond: Provocateur.

Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 01:35 AM Reply

BULLSHIT! unions are the reason we got out of the Depression and was the back bone of WWII in production for the war effort. its because of big businesses that the country is going the way it is! they don't want to deal with Unions because of of the pay and benefits so they outsource the jobs to China for slave labor.

labor Unions built this country, greed from big businesses will ruin it.

Tony-DarkGrave
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 06:49 AM Reply

At 12/12/12 06:24 AM, RightWingGamer wrote: Obviously, unions have done good in the past (well, private sector unions have, anyway). But in today's world of OSHA, 40-hour work weeks, and decent wages, they are no longer essential to workers' rights like they were before. Instead, they are turning into thugs and profiteers that get rich by fucking over the companies, the consumers, the government, and even their own members.

Unions are still needed today, my old man got fucked up while working and the company tried firing him (with some Bullshit Technicality) and the Teamsters got on it and stopped the termination process of his employment. and with big Companies having increased productivity and stagnated wages (see the Graph below) not only that back in the day companies would have to pay 35-40% in taxes now they only have to pay 9-15% due to buying off politicians. and if the companies don't like it they outsource to china with slave labor and even lower taking losing jobs here in america.

at least the Unions give the workers a platform to stand on give them good wages and benefits (have you ever seen a union pension plan they are nice)

unreported violence in Mich.

adrshepard
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 08:26 AM Reply

At 12/12/12 06:49 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
Unions are still needed today, my old man got fucked up while working and the company tried firing him (with some Bullshit Technicality) and the Teamsters got on it and stopped the termination process of his employment. and with big Companies having increased productivity and stagnated wages (see the Graph below)

I wouldn't jump to conclusions from that graph. The last few decades have seen a shift away from labor intensive industries in the US (like some kinds of manufacturing) and to other countries with low labor costs. The way some US businesses have compensated for higher labor costs is by increasing capital, which makes each worker more productive and requires fewer employees for a given amount of output. Those workers are almost always paid more because it takes more skill or experience to operate the equipment.

The one thing I don't understand in the whole union debate is why none of the right-to-work laws eliminate the exclusive representation provision, which forces the union's agreements to cover all employees, even if they aren't in the union (which leads to the free rider problem). It seems to me that it be very easy for a company to have negotiations with a union for its members alone and have a "take it or leave it" deal to cover the rest of the non-union employees. If the non-union employees don't like the terms, they'll join the union, if they do, then everyone wins. Even stranger, no one seems to be talking about it or giving reasons why it wouldn't work. The only things I could find on the internet about it were some 12-year-old proposal from the Cato Institute and an opinion piece from Forbes.

Korriken
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 09:39 AM Reply

At 12/11/12 08:50 PM, Feoric wrote: The conversation would probably be more meaningful if you didn't feel the need to always put yourself up against the evil liberal agenda. Y'know, empty platitudes and all that.

who ever said the liberal agenda was evil? I was merely pointing out what usually happens in these forums when you make mention of something the libs don't like, like pointing out union violence.


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Ceratisa
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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 10:19 AM Reply

At 12/12/12 09:39 AM, Korriken wrote:
At 12/11/12 08:50 PM, Feoric wrote: The conversation would probably be more meaningful if you didn't feel the need to always put yourself up against the evil liberal agenda. Y'know, empty platitudes and all that.
who ever said the liberal agenda was evil? I was merely pointing out what usually happens in these forums when you make mention of something the libs don't like, like pointing out union violence.

Only been here on the forums a few days, even I noticed a couple circle jerks.
Nothing wrong with you pointing it out imho.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 05:43 PM Reply

At 12/12/12 04:59 PM, RightWingGamer wrote: I'm no expert, but that sounds like grounds for a lawsuit, not for union intervention.

Lawsuits happen post firing and are extremely expensive. 9 times out of 10 the employee will just run out of money and have to drop thesuit before they win a dime. On top of that damages are almost always insufficient to cover the actual losses of the injured employee. The union is able to step in and let the worker keep their job and if the lawsuit ends up going forward (as most of the time the company knows they'll lose) the union will often help pay for it, or pay for all of it.

In the end the differences between going it alone in court and having a union are HUGE.

If by "fucked up," you mean he was injured on the job, then it's very possible that there was some sort of safety violation on their part. Typically, this at least means you can get a good settlement.

Again, that is only if TDG Sr. can afford to take the suit long enough to win at trial or pass summary judgment.

And before you talk about legal fees, understand that most injury lawyers work on contingency fees, which means that the lawyer only gets paid if you win or settle.

That's only part of it. Let's say TDG Sr. made a decent manufacturer's wage equally approximately $35K/yr. Can TDG Sr. afford $70K (2yrs of pre-trial, discovery, and the routine biglaw civil defense obfuscation tactics) of living while unemloyed until he gets a resolution (verdict/settlement)? Even if he gets a settlement or a jugdment, will it be enough to make up for the fact he will likely never be able to make more than $7.50/hr (roughly $13K/yr) again?

Lawsuits are better tha nothing, but as a remedy for life changing inuries they are hardly close to sufficient.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 07:25 PM Reply

So basically unions are so good that the law needs to force you to join them


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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 07:29 PM Reply

At 12/12/12 07:25 PM, RacistBassist wrote: So basically unions are so good that the law needs to force you to join them

Thee is no law that forces anyone to join a union.

The mandatory dues are a function of the jnion's power over the hiring company, where the union can use its influence to get the company to fire anyone who fails to join.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 08:55 PM Reply

At 12/12/12 07:29 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
The mandatory dues are a function of the jnion's power over the hiring company, where the union can use its influence to get the company to fire anyone who fails to join.

am i the only person who sees a problem with the concept of...

Man starts company, man grows company, union organizes workers in company, union demands company only hire union workers, union effectively owns company though soft hostile takeover via being able to shut down company by striking

before the myriad labor laws that have been passed since the unions first appeared, unions had a VERY much needed influence. now that we have all these labor laws, OSHA, 40 hour work week, forced overtime for working 40 hours, not being able to fire someone without just cause (or what I call the 3 write up rule), among others, Labor's role in the workplace has more or less devolved into the role of arm twisting companies for more money so they can demand money from members to sustain their own no longer needed existence.

I can understand the need for job security, but no one needs this level of job security.

I've worked for several different companies and one thing that they all had in common was they do not fire good workers and if they DO have to lay off workers, the good ones will be rehired.


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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 13th, 2012 @ 01:31 AM Reply

At 12/12/12 08:55 PM, Korriken wrote: am i the only person who sees a problem with the concept of...

Not at all. I was extremely open in my disdain for the Boeing workers' strike 6 or so years ago. I am no fan of strikes for more money. Most union workers not only are overpaid for their position, but are overpaid for occupations well above them.

However, the problem of being unprotected in the case of an injury, as I highlighted above, is pretty bad.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 13th, 2012 @ 01:40 AM Reply

At 12/13/12 01:31 AM, Camarohusky wrote:
However, the problem of being unprotected in the case of an injury, as I highlighted above, is pretty bad.

last I checked, all you need is a lawyer, not a union.


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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 13th, 2012 @ 02:13 AM Reply

At 12/13/12 01:40 AM, Korriken wrote: last I checked, all you need is a lawyer, not a union.

Yes, those highly affordable lawyers.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 13th, 2012 @ 05:29 AM Reply

At 12/12/12 05:43 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Lawsuits happen post firing and are extremely expensive. 9 times out of 10 the employee will just run out of money and have to drop thesuit before they win a dime. On top of that damages are almost always insufficient to cover the actual losses of the injured employee. The union is able to step in and let the worker keep their job and if the lawsuit ends up going forward (as most of the time the company knows they'll lose) the union will often help pay for it, or pay for all of it.

all of this is true

In the end the differences between going it alone in court and having a union are HUGE.

If by "fucked up," you mean he was injured on the job, then it's very possible that there was some sort of safety violation on their part. Typically, this at least means you can get a good settlement.

nah my old man works for UPS for almost 30 years he does the safety protocols and what not I mean hell he even wears the lifting belt and uses knee braces for last 6 years and the corporate management knows it.

Again, that is only if TDG Sr. can afford to take the suit long enough to win at trial or pass summary judgment.
And before you talk about legal fees, understand that most injury lawyers work on contingency fees, which means that the lawyer only gets paid if you win or settle.

he went to the union like you said in your first paragraph and every thing you said is what happened.

That's only part of it. Let's say TDG Sr. made a decent manufacturer's wage equally approximately $35K/yr. Can TDG Sr. afford $70K (2yrs of pre-trial, discovery, and the routine biglaw civil defense obfuscation tactics) of living while unemloyed until he gets a resolution (verdict/settlement)? Even if he gets a settlement or a jugdment, will it be enough to make up for the fact he will likely never be able to make more than $7.50/hr (roughly $13K/yr) again?

bullshit! last time I check that old fart make $25-27 a hour lol! but with the economy the way it is he's been having financial problems with bills and other shit so I don't think he could if he didn't go through the union. I mean hell my younger sister went through a custody battle and my parents are helping her pay off that 15K layers bill..

Lawsuits are better tha nothing, but as a remedy for life changing inuries they are hardly close to sufficient.

to true.

At 12/13/12 01:40 AM, Korriken wrote: last I checked, all you need is a lawyer, not a union.

thats funny have you any idea the cost it takes to take a big company like a Fortune 500 (that uses union workers) to court? were talking quite a bit. but in a union your dues pay for operations and a legal defense fund for workers. and Union lawyers are pretty good The union is able to step in and let the worker keep their job and if the lawsuit ends up going forward (as most of the time the company knows they'll lose) the union will often help pay for it, or pay for all of it.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 13th, 2012 @ 06:57 PM Reply

At 12/12/12 07:29 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Thee is no law that forces anyone to join a union.

The mandatory dues are a function of the jnion's power over the hiring company, where the union can use its influence to get the company to fire anyone who fails to join.

Union Security Agreements are a hell of a thing aren't they? They can force a company to accept the terms, and then they can force the company to only hire who they want, while also collecting all of their money against the employees wills. If any other group of people did that there'd be mass protests.


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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 13th, 2012 @ 08:50 PM Reply

Full disclosure: My mom was a teacher for 30 years. I get the concept of teachers' unions. In most cases, they are student advocates. But some cases really make me wonder. Take this one in Ontario. The term "non-support" scares me. Especially the "extracurricular activity" thing. Staying after school with students for any reason is considered an "extracurricular activity" in education. So if a teacher stays after school to help a student with classwork, he or she can be fined $500. Does that sound right to you?

Now, I am not a resident of Ontario, so of course I don't know the whole story. But oddly enough, this story came up right during the whole right-to-work thing in Michigan, too.

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 01:58 AM Reply

anyway, back on topic about the news media's failure to report on union violence. turns out a hot dog vendor was also the victim of an attack, and of course, this is only reported by one network.

here's a more local article on it.

Naturally, this won't get reported on by if at all avoidable because this makes the unions look like typical thugs willing to use violence against anyone or anything they perceive as a threat, and thus, goes against the agenda of the media. It also puts a dent in the illusion that has been carefully crafted of unions being "just normal people" which, most are, yes, but union violence is not a new concept. Union violence has been around as long as unions have. Problem is, there is no call for people to destroy the property of someone who isn't even involved in the dispute and only want to do what he's been doing for a long time, sell hot dogs.

Maybe they were pissed because he wasn't in the Local Hot Dog Vendor Union 104.


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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 02:21 AM Reply

Korriken, quick question. What do you define as "the media?" Would you not agree that FNN and their website are media outlets, and very popular ones at that?

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 03:07 AM Reply

At 12/14/12 02:21 AM, Feoric wrote: Korriken, quick question. What do you define as "the media?" Would you not agree that FNN and their website are media outlets, and very popular ones at that?

If they provide news, then perhaps. I've never heard of them though. is it local or national? or perhaps international?

I'm mostly talking about nation wide United States based news networks.

provide a link, I'll take a look.


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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 12:44 PM Reply

At 12/14/12 01:58 AM, Korriken wrote: anyway, back on topic about the news media's failure to report on union violence. turns out a hot dog vendor was also the victim of an attack, and of course, this is only reported by one network.

Sounds like the usual riff raff that likes to come to demostrations and cause trouble.

here's a more local article on it.

This "article" is hardly journalism. More akin toa sophomori opinion piece, ala most of the pro OWS crap that was around a year ago.

Naturally, this won't get reported on by if at all avoidable because this makes the unions look like typical thugs willing to use violence

Ah, Korriken, leave it to you to look at a lamb and see a liberal plot to rape all the white women.

EVERY protest has the the riff raff who come in and start violence knowing that the large crowds will allow them to more likely than not get away with it. Nothing about your short video and your snuff journalism (reading that was like watching journalism get raped and then killed) piece indicates that this was a calculated move by any union or a union member. Heck, the use of masks that the video describes strengthens the unrelated riff raff theory. The handy dandy presence of someone from the AFP to film the whole event is suspicious as well. Staged victimization?

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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 03:03 PM Reply

At 12/14/12 12:44 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 12/14/12 01:58 AM, Korriken wrote: anyway, back on topic about the news media's failure to report on union violence. turns out a hot dog vendor was also the victim of an attack, and of course, this is only reported by one network.
Sounds like the usual riff raff that likes to come to demostrations and cause trouble.

Obviously. problem is, the riff raff is making the wrong group look bad, therefore, it's ignored.

Ah, Korriken, leave it to you to look at a lamb and see a liberal plot to rape all the white women.

Or simply tell it like it is. Problem is, I'm pointing out the wrong truth, therefore, it must be suppressed with nonsensical accusations, like the one here.

EVERY protest has the the riff raff who come in and start violence knowing that the large crowds will allow them to more likely than not get away with it.

right.

Nothing about your short video and your snuff journalism (reading that was like watching journalism get raped and then killed) piece indicates that this was a calculated move by any union or a union member.

never said it was. it could have been, but I never laid such an accusation. I said it makes them LOOK bad. I don't know if your reading comprehension is off or you're just being dishonest.

Heck, the use of masks that the video describes strengthens the unrelated riff raff theory. The handy dandy presence of someone from the AFP to film the whole event is suspicious as well. Staged victimization?

AFP having cameras out recording around their own tent. damn that DOES sound suspicious. oh wait. no it doesn't.


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Response to unreported violence in Mich. Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 04:35 PM Reply

At 12/14/12 03:03 PM, Korriken wrote: Obviously. problem is, the riff raff is making the wrong group look bad, therefore, it's ignored.

No. This kind of stuff just isn't news outside of the local area and those who want to villify the group but can't find anything legitimate to use.

It'd be like reporting rain in Oregon or snow in Minnesota.

Or simply tell it like it is. Problem is, I'm pointing out the wrong truth, therefore, it must be suppressed with nonsensical accusations, like the one here.

The master of hyperbole cannot see hyperbole when used against him?

This is essentially a non-issue. It likely would have happened regardless of who was protesting what, so long as the group protesting was large enough.

right.

That's right. I've seen enough local protests, both left and right (most conservative protests aren't big enough to draw the riff raff) and all but one had these dumbasses come and break stuff.

never said it was. it could have been, but I never laid such an accusation. I said it makes them LOOK bad. I don't know if your reading comprehension is off or you're just being dishonest.

No it doesn't. You haven't shown that the union or even any of the legitimate protestors played any part in this. Not to mention the molasses thick bias hanging over both links you posted.

AFP having cameras out recording around their own tent. damn that DOES sound suspicious. oh wait. no it doesn't.

First off, why was AFP selling hotdogs at a Union protest? Why were they recording the sale of hotdogs? Trying to get some weiner sucking footage to use as blackmail?

Side note, (not really) let's not forget that the AFP istelf said that the attackers were non-union and that the union protestors helped the AFP folks after the tent collapsed. Link.