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At 12/26/12 09:45 AM, Susanowoo wrote: In every continents around the World (As France too) the USA created some conflicts in order to make profits.

That's not wrong. I will never say the US has clean hands. However, it's the higest of naivete to believe that without the US someone else, if not numerous someone elses wouldn't be doing the same thing. My point, was that unlike European powers, the US has at least been able to largely pacify an entire hemishpere. Had the European powers stll controlled North America (a strong possibility) then there would be as much war in the Western Hemisphere as there is in the Eastern Hemishpere, which has been at near constant war for thousands of years (even if you exchange 'Eastern Hemisphere' for 'Europe').

That's the problem of the Big Powerful Countries, always kill to be more rich ...

the world would probably be sunk in barbarism, one must be happy there is a power capable to make a front against, terrorism, china, semi-democratic backwards countries, imagine a world controlled by venezuela

At 12/29/12 03:50 PM, kakalxlax wrote: the world would probably be sunk in barbarism, one must be happy there is a power capable to make a front against, terrorism, china, semi-democratic backwards countries, imagine a world controlled by venezuela

The only real threat of this was in the 1930s and early 1940s when fascism was en vogue among developed nations. Before then and after then, the Western Powers have been firmly in control of both World Politics and the stability of their democracies and republics.

With the exception of that fascist period I mentioned, it's extremely likely that some other developed power, or coalition of developed nations, would have fended off the problems you say would be rampant.

At 12/24/12 12:50 AM, Camarohusky wrote: Watching the Euros try to claim the US is so evil whilst sitting atop their millenia of torture and oppression, not to mention their insatiable fetish for war, is nothing but pure hilarity.

We frequently get in pissing matches, you and I. But we agree here.

At 12/29/12 04:17 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 12/29/12 03:50 PM, kakalxlax wrote: the world would probably be sunk in barbarism, one must be happy there is a power capable to make a front against, terrorism, china, semi-democratic backwards countries, imagine a world controlled by venezuela

The only real threat of this was in the 1930s and early 1940s when fascism was en vogue among developed nations. Before then and after then, the Western Powers have been firmly in control of both World Politics and the stability of their democracies and republics.

you should really pay attention to venezuela, argentina, north korea among others, and see if fascism is a thread of the past. sure maybe not worldwide (now), but the world would be a different place without the US.

but the most significant thing the US did, was developing technology, and technology is progress, not meaningless social action

With the exception of that fascist period I mentioned, it's extremely likely that some other developed power, or coalition of developed nations, would have fended off the problems you say would be rampant.

maybe not, probably there would still be some kind of cold war conflict, or japan still supporting nazism, for sure japan wouldnt be the country it is today thus it accomplished so much thanks to the indemnification the US gave them for nuking them.

ive seen many "civilized" countries fall to terrorist propaganda, maybe without the US, the conflict could have scalated world wide (as there is no doubt terrorist would if given the chance)

the US gave us things like cars, fordism, airplanes, internet, electricity, phones (arguably), computers, etc, etc
there is the chance those would eventually be invented by someone else, but obviously it would have taken more time

its a shame not many people realize that technology is always the answer

At 12/29/12 07:14 PM, kakalxlax wrote: you should really pay attention to venezuela, argentina, north korea among others, and see if fascism is a thread of the past. sure maybe not worldwide (now), but the world would be a different place without the US.

But those countries are all 3rd World countries, or developing nations. The First World has rarely cared, as well it shouldn't, for the political trends of such low level countries.

The 1930s saw fascism take strong hold in several countries that at that time were developed. They weren't the cream of the developed crop, but they were developed nonetheless. Akin to Spain, Finland, South Korea, or Australia turning fascist today.

but the most significant thing the US did, was developing technology, and technology is progress, not meaningless social action

I find the notion that inventions would not have been invented if the US wasn't around completely proposterous. You could claim that the US' existence accelrated the invention, but then gain, ther are other fields where you could claim that the US' existence has hindered the invention. There is no invention that is so uniquely American that it would not have been made without the United States.

maybe not, probably there would still be some kind of cold war conflict, or japan still supporting nazism, for sure japan wouldnt be the country it is today thus it accomplished so much thanks to the indemnification the US gave them for nuking them.

As for the Cold War or Nazism surviving, that assumes no other country would have been large and powerful instead of the US, who, actually, was not that powerful before World War II.

As for Japan, that is likely true. Japan is a unique situation where the US took Post-War Japan under its wing and gave it a ton, perhaps more than it has given any other country by 2 fold. Wihout the US it is unlikely, though still possible, that any other country would have treated Japan this way.

ive seen many "civilized" countries fall to terrorist propaganda, maybe without the US, the conflict could have scalated world wide (as there is no doubt terrorist would if given the chance)

Don't fall for current circumstances. It's easy for France and Spain and alike to give in right now. They are not the main target, nor are they in a position to lose much if thinga in the Middle East get hairy. They essentially rely on the US to do all of their dirty work, and can act as if they're taking the high road solely because the US does the dirty work. Without the US, somebody would still have to do this dirty work, and I can very confidently assure you that those countries would be acting very different if they had to back up or pay consequences for their actions, even France.

the US gave us things like cars, fordism, airplanes, internet, electricity, phones (arguably), computers, etc, etc
there is the chance those would eventually be invented by someone else, but obviously it would have taken more time

Cars were invented first in China, and the first modern (relative) car was invented in Germany. All the US did was provide a massive market, thus inducing innovation in the production of cars. Really all you can credit the US, as the US, for in any of these inventions is being wealthy, large, and having a big population. The wealth allowed for resources to be spent on these inventions. The size gave need for travel and long distance communication tools, and the large population allowed for goods to be sold on a large scale. Any credit here assumes that the US' territory would have been either fragmented or left largely unsettled. A "West France", "Novo Espana", or "Westerly Englishseyboppertonshire" if well settled, would have easily given the same circumstances for the timely invention of those inventions. The massive amount of virgin resources would almost ensure that any large scale settlement in the current US territory would become extremely wealthy.

its a shame not many people realize that technology is always the answer

True, but most who think that things would have been inherently slower without "the American Spirit" place social views above technology and science.

At 12/29/12 07:43 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

I find the notion that inventions would not have been invented if the US wasn't around completely proposterous. You could claim that the US' existence accelrated the invention

yes, as i said, they would have taken longer to be invented

but then gain, ther are other fields where you could claim that the US' existence has hindered the invention.

like?, and even so, there is a good chance those field would have been hindered by the lack of american inventions

As for the Cold War or Nazism surviving, that assumes no other country would have been large and powerful instead of the US, who, actually, was not that powerful before World War II.

nazism surviving is more far fetched, but have in mind the US was the only thing that stopped soviet counter attack on germany to keep spreading over europe, and the US took an essential rol in stopping communism

As for Japan, that is likely true. Japan is a unique situation where the US took Post-War Japan under its wing and gave it a ton, perhaps more than it has given any other country by 2 fold. Wihout the US it is unlikely, though still possible, that any other country would have treated Japan this way.

not exactly unique as it also gave generous trading treats to several countries rounding soviet controlled areas to "hold" communism, but japan was greatly beneficence. and surely modern japanese culture wouldnt exist (poor anime, and mini robots lovers)

ive seen many "civilized" countries fall to terrorist propaganda, maybe without the US, the conflict could have scalated world wide (as there is no doubt terrorist would if given the chance)

Don't fall for current circumstances. It's easy for France and Spain and alike to give in right now. They are not the main target, nor are they in a position to lose much if thinga in the Middle East get hairy. They essentially rely on the US to do all of their dirty work, and can act as if they're taking the high road solely because the US does the dirty work. Without the US, somebody would still have to do this dirty work, and I can very confidently assure you that those countries would be acting very different if they had to back up or pay consequences for their actions, even France.

possibly, or we would be saying "horray for the collapse of civilization"

the US gave us things like cars, fordism, airplanes, internet, electricity, phones (arguably), computers, etc, etc
there is the chance those would eventually be invented by someone else, but obviously it would have taken more time

:The massive amount of virgin resources would almost ensure that any large scale settlement in the current US territory would become extremely wealthy.

look at argentina, it has tons of fertile land, and various other resources, it had everything to become a world potency, but corruption (Peronism), took any chance of progress down.

and look at israel, they took a desert and made fertile land of it.

its a shame not many people realize that technology is always the answer

True, but most who think that things would have been inherently slower without "the American Spirit" place social views above technology and science.

im just relying on facts here, americans invented tons of stuff, so without them, their discovery/invention would have taken longer

and surely with an even longer cold war, we would have even more stuff

At 12/29/12 08:56 PM, kakalxlax wrote: like?, and even so, there is a good chance those field would have been hindered by the lack of american inventions

Rail. Nuclear Power. Those are two I can think of right off the top of my head.

nazism surviving is more far fetched, but have in mind the US was the only thing that stopped soviet counter attack on germany to keep spreading over europe, and the US took an essential rol in stopping communism

Again, the other countries were lagrely playing the back seat role there. That entire incident was also facilitated by World War II, which may not have happened without the US (remember, it started 165 years after the US was created).

not exactly unique as it also gave generous trading treats to several countries rounding soviet controlled areas to "hold" communism, but japan was greatly beneficence. and surely modern japanese culture wouldnt exist (poor anime, and mini robots lovers)

I'm talking about the economic and military benefits. Japan became the #1 economy in the 1980s because the US took a stance of little to no tariffs against Japan whilst tolerating, and in some cases encouraging, astronomical tariffs by Japan against the US. That alone was huge and unique. Then add on the US made Constituion banning the mimitary and the US' strong sustained military presence there, thus freeing many percentage points of a large Japanese GDP to be spent elsewhere.

look at argentina, it has tons of fertile land, and various other resources, it had everything to become a world potency, but corruption (Peronism), took any chance of progress down.

That's a clear possibility for what could have happened here without the US.

im just relying on facts here, americans invented tons of stuff, so without them, their discovery/invention would have taken longer

The facts you're relying on have a major flaw, the flaw everything has when it comes to counterfactuals. We don't know what the alternative would be, so it's impossible to definitively say anything, especially when it comes to invention or innovation. For all we know, the US is the worst possible outcome that could have come of this land based on the lead up. It is completely possible that the world would be more peaceful and much more advanced without the US. Then again it's equally possible that the US is the best possible outcome of the leadup and that the world is safer and more advanced because of the US. It's more likely somewhere in the middle where certain things have gone poorly, but other things have done better. There is some indication that technology is on the better side, due to the criteria I laid out befoe, but it's hardly definitive.

At 12/30/12 08:16 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 12/29/12 08:56 PM, kakalxlax wrote: like?, and even so, there is a good chance those field would have been hindered by the lack of american inventions

Rail. Nuclear Power. Those are two I can think of right off the top of my head.

how?

Again, the other countries were lagrely playing the back seat role there. That entire incident was also facilitated by World War II, which may not have happened without the US (remember, it started 165 years after the US was created).

the fact those were playing the backseat role doesnt mean they could have played the active rol. but in any case, the situation, duration and result would have not necessarily been the same
communism and capitalism clash was something inevitable, ww2 gave an excuse, but things between the soviets and the capitalist world wasn't "ok" before it. the situation was like entering with a flamethrower to an oil refinery.

not exactly unique as it also gave generous trading treats to several countries rounding soviet controlled areas to "hold" communism, but japan was greatly beneficence. and surely modern japanese culture wouldnt exist (poor anime, and mini robots lovers)

I'm talking about the economic and military benefits.

trading treats = economic benefices

look at argentina, it has tons of fertile land, and various other resources, it had everything to become a world potency, but corruption (Peronism), took any chance of progress down.

That's a clear possibility for what could have happened here without the US.

as i take you are being ironic im bringing some context you said : ""The massive amount of virgin resources would almost ensure that any large scale settlement in the current US territory would become extremely wealthy.""

im just relying on facts here, americans invented tons of stuff, so without them, their discovery/invention would have taken longer

The facts you're relying on have a major flaw, the flaw everything has when it comes to counterfactuals. We don't know what the alternative would be, so it's impossible to definitively say anything, especially when it comes to invention or innovation.

well ye, as they were the first to invent something, you could deduce that the invention of it would have taken longer without them

For all we know, the US is the worst possible outcome that could have come of this land based on the lead up.

you know that's not true, the world could be in a much worse shape

It is completely possible that the world would be more peaceful and much more advanced without the US.

possible, but not likely by a long shot.
but i would agree if you change "us" for "religion" or "human stupidity"

Then again it's equally possible that the US is the best possible outcome of the leadup and that the world is safer and more advanced because of the US.

almost certainly its not the best nor the worst, unless you take as the only variations on this multiverse the existence or not of the us

It's more likely somewhere in the middle where certain things have gone poorly, but other things have done better. There is some indication that technology is on the better side, due to the criteria I laid out befoe, but it's hardly definitive.

agreed

and any country with the innovative capacity of the us (or a superior one) would eventually have taken the us place, or even a more "active" one

At 12/31/12 10:17 AM, kakalxlax wrote: how?

The United States has openaly abandoned any development in either of the fields decades ago. Also, there were cases where American powers (mainly companies) actually placed affirmative effort into not only halting research, but destroying what advances that had already been made. (see the tires and car companies paying cities to scrap their plans for rail transit as well as their existing transit systems)

trading treats = economic benefices

I know, I was talking about how those worked together and the pure extent of the economic benefits to Japan, which have not been repeated elsewhere, especially now where the trend is to break down tariffs on both sides of a relationship.

as i take you are being ironic im bringing some context you said : ""The massive amount of virgin resources would almost ensure that any large scale settlement in the current US territory would become extremely wealthy.""

Argentina was not settled in a large scale until well into the 20th Century, thus making the circumstances of their settlement wholly different. The US had about Argentina's current population (40 million) the year of Argentina's first census which registered about 1.2 million people. While they are a possible connection, the times at which they had enough people to create such wealth were extremely different, thus leading to differing political trends among rising countries (Republic for the enlightenment and Industrial revolution, and fascist or communist dictatorships post World War II) at those respective times.

and any country with the innovative capacity of the us (or a superior one) would eventually have taken the us place, or even a more "active" one

My view on specific Counterfactual history in most cases is that the world would look largely the same. The specifics would not doubt be very different, but history and geopolitics is such a tapestry that removing one piece of fabric won't change the entire look of the piece.

At 12/8/12 05:33 PM, Ceratisa wrote: Less world freedom, no UN, No moonlanding, Far less medicines, Much more massive wars without the invention of the Atomic Bomb. WWI or WWII would of ended much differently.
The list goes on

You are making an assumption based on how you see the US now. Who's to say someone else wouldn't be in their same exact position now? Who's to say WW1 ending differently wouldn't have been a bad thing? Some things we'll never know

No moon landing? No moon landing by the US, someone else would've done it (if they wanted to)
Less world freedom? Dude, the US basically bullies the world into submission. Sure, I'm grateful for their assistance, but strutting around like you have the biggest dick on campus is no way to make friends
Far less medicines? Come on man, its pure happenstance that whatever medicines you are talking about just so happened to be made in the US

I like the US (although I do look like a Mexican Arab, two things I've been lead to believe that US doesn't like), but if it wasn't the US, it would be some other country or land mass

You really are a fucking moron are you? You do realize that without America, there would be no Canada right? Even if there was, it wouldn't be a democracy at all, it would most likely be an absolute monarchy ruling North America, or worse total anarchy like in Somalia, and no one wants that.

you dont really believe that USA invented democracy do you ? it would come to most places anyhow.

At 12/8/12 02:13 AM, fmn335 wrote: What would the world be like if the U.S.A never was created?

Britain would be a hell of a lot bigger.

At 1/3/13 08:18 PM, notsobadman wrote: Britain would be a hell of a lot bigger.

Or Spain. Or France.

At 1/4/13 12:28 PM, LemonCrush wrote:

At 1/3/13 08:18 PM, notsobadman wrote: Britain would be a hell of a lot bigger.

Or Spain. Or France.

lol about spain, that country is full of morons, they stole the gold of an entire continent and are still on crisis

The USA don't exist. The USA don't exist. The USA don't exist.

Without the USA, there wouldn't be a country that spends the most on military budget, but I don't know about the good or bad consequences of that. Maybe there would be less war because there'd be less military? Of course, some other country would probably just make up for it. I mean, some country at least has to be second worst at anything, seeing as how there are literally hundreds of them.

China is more and more stronger and now Russia stops to follow the orders of the USA

The world is changing :)

At 12/8/12 02:13 AM, fmn335 wrote: What would the world be like if the U.S.A never was created?

Nobody can know for sure. There could be an infinite number of different possible outcomes that the world would be like.

At 12/8/12 02:13 AM, fmn335 wrote: What would the world be like if the U.S.A never was created?

We probably wouldn't be as technologically advanced. Maybe we would be far more advanced. Taking the USA out of history would the chaos theory on steroids.

At 1/9/13 04:02 PM, Susanowoo wrote: China is more and more stronger

China is lying through their crumbling teeth.

and now Russia stops to follow the orders of the USA

Russia never followed anybody's orders.

At 1/11/13 12:15 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

China is lying through their crumbling teeth.

America is dieing through there teeth byproduct of to much greed and arrogance.

At 1/11/13 10:53 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: America is dieing through there teeth byproduct of to much greed and arrogance.

And Canada, the little pilotfish, will sink with the US.

At 1/4/13 12:28 PM, LemonCrush wrote:

At 1/3/13 08:18 PM, notsobadman wrote: Britain would be a hell of a lot bigger.

Or Spain. Or France.

Don't forget Mexico.

Anyways, going back to the WWII history split, it occurred to me that if Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were indeed the victors, it would probably have been only a matter of time before they had a falling out themselves. Japan's fascism was not the same as European fascism to begin with (for example, the Japanese government did not advocate the extermination of the Jews or any other race). Furthermore, each would have had very different conquered cultures to deal with; Germany had Europe, North Africa and possibly chucks of Russia or the Middle East, while Japan had Korea, Manchukuo, Indo-China, Indonesia and possibly India, Australia, Mongolia and chunks of Siberia. Given enough time, I suspect that Nazism and Kokka Shugism would have had the same falling out that Leninism and Maoism had.

The defeat of the Allies would also be a major blow to democracy. Nations would think to themselves "okay, democracy and free thought just don't work," and turn to autocracy instead. I'm assuming you'd still get the same ideology wars that we saw in the Cold War, but with more potential players:

Germany: Nazism
Japan: Kokka Shugism
Russia: Leninism
China: Maoism or Chiang Kai Shek-ism
Britain: Colonialism or Democracy

(Assuming that Nazi Germany still fails to fully conquer Britain or Russia and that Japan fails to completely subdue China or Britain's Asian colonies)

I'm also curious about how Brazil and Mexico (which I'm assuming maintains its Texas and California territories in this timeline) would react. Brazil was pressured into joining the Allied powers by the United States and Mexico joined after two of its oil tankers were sunk by German submarines en route to the USA. Brazil and Mexico were somewhat anti-communist at the time (although they aren't now) so they might have preferred the Axis powers if not given the chance to remain neutral. I really don't know enough about them to predict what would happen after the war though.