Egyption Democracy dies.

[Korriken]

Who didn't see this coming?

You know, I distinctly remember saying this was going to happen. They elect an islamist leader, the leader decides "I'm above the law!" and now his supporters are effectively shutting down the legal system.

If it hasn't occurred to you yet. this is going to get VERY ugly before it's over. The Egyptian military may have to step in and forcefully remove Morsy and his followers before its over, lest Egypt turns into another islamic dictatorship... as if the world needed another.

That's my $0.02.

[Th-e]

At 12/2/12 04:44 PM, Korriken wrote: Who didn't see this coming?

Our elected officials didn't see this coming.

The difference here is that Morsi waited until after Obama's re-election to go totalitarian, unlike Iran's regime (Jimmy Carter ended up losing re-election due in part to Iran).

Also, I have been hearing Islamists winning control in pretty much all of the other Arab Spring countries, so I can see the entire Middle East becoming like Iran. Odds are they'll probably get nukes as well.

Islamists also took over norther Mali (which includes Timbuktu, and yes, historical sites have been destroyed).

What will the international community do? Nothing, as usual. We've let Iran run an Islamist dictatorship for 34 years. We've let North Korea (1984 meets Stalin) get nuclear weapons. We do nothing when Palestinians attack Israel, but force Israel to stop if they fight back.

Kiss the Sphinx and Pyramids goodbye before the end of the decade.

[Korriken]

At 12/2/12 05:00 PM, Th-e wrote:

Our elected officials didn't see this coming.

I'm sure they saw it coming. they were powerless to do or say anything about it. Even a blind man could have seen it coming.

The difference here is that Morsi waited until after Obama's re-election to go totalitarian, unlike Iran's regime (Jimmy Carter ended up losing re-election due in part to Iran).

Also, I have been hearing Islamists winning control in pretty much all of the other Arab Spring countries, so I can see the entire Middle East becoming like Iran. Odds are they'll probably get nukes as well.

Except for Libya.

Islamists also took over norther Mali (which includes Timbuktu, and yes, historical sites have been destroyed).

that pissed me off to no end.

What will the international community do? Nothing, as usual. We've let Iran run an Islamist dictatorship for 34 years. We've let North Korea (1984 meets Stalin) get nuclear weapons. We do nothing when Palestinians attack Israel, but force Israel to stop if they fight back.

let's be fair here. the UN does write strongly worded letters.

Kiss the Sphinx and Pyramids goodbye before the end of the decade.

I would not doubt it.

Wonder how far this will all have to go before the non muslim world decides that enough is enough and decides to actually do something about the growing problem that is rabid fundamentalist islam? As long as the non muslim world sits on its hands and keeps its mouth shut it's going going to continue to spread like an infection on the world. Islamists have already realized they can topple other countries without setting off red flags from the non muslim world by inciting the locals to rise up. then, then the government is removed, the islamists work their way in and corrupt the system and turn it into an islamist dictatorship. With that, the training camps spring up and begin training more and more jihadists.

My prediction? WW3 is going to be Muslims vs the rest of the world.

[Camarohusky]

This is exactly why the quest of bringing Democracy to the Middle East is a waste.

Democracy only works if everyone, or at least damn near everyone, buys in and truly understands it. When you have a large group that does not buy in they are likely to use the system as both a bloodless coup and a way to falsely legitimize their autocratic rule. Second, you can't absolve the Egyptian people. They had a chance for Democracy that they seemed to want, yet they didn't really understand the consequences of who they voted for and voted in another autocrat to power.

If Egypt can't handle the simple task of voting to support a Democracy, there is no way in hell places like Lybia, or Syria will be able to.

[tyler2513]

I think the situation in Egypt will turn into the situation currently ongoing in Syria.

[JMHX]

And the award for most sensationalist topic title goes to...

[Feoric]

Let's start from the beginning.

Morsi declared and put in action a bunch of laws that make him a dictator of sorts. First he fired the Attorney General, who can only be removed if incapable or by resignation. All constitutional declarations issued by him are now un-appealable, binding, and can only be modified by him. Any current and/or future lawsuits regarding these declarations are considered null and void. All of the Egyptian courts of law are barred from the dissolution of any entities created by him, which included the constitution committee and the upper house of Parliament.

Basically, this gives Morsi complete oversight over any judicial rulings, including the power to simply ignore them if he wishes to. He also has the power to dissolve any bodies he wants to, while everyone just sits and watches.

There is some good news, though. There's still term limits, so if the Egyptians don't want Morsi come 2016, then it won't be difficult to elect someone more moderate than him. There's also the question of what is the purpose of this move and whether he will relinquish his power.

It's worth noting that in places where there has been generations of dictatorship, like in South America or in this case Egypt, there's a weird nostalgia for an orderly, autocratic existence. A dictator or junta or whatever means stability and maybe it's shitty, but it's less shitty than the potential instability caused by elections, where there is a significant risk of unpredictable shifts in far reaching aspects of everyday life. It all depends on what the people want, of course. Egypt is in a political limbo right now. There is no real reason to assume that the Egyptian people wouldn't rise against him if he continues to go against the will of the Egyptians. They're fresh from a revolution. They won't just sit on their hands.

[morefngdbs]

At 12/2/12 04:44 PM, Korriken wrote: You know, I distinctly remember saying this was going to happen. They elect an islamist leader, the leader decides "I'm above the law!" and now his supporters are effectively shutting down the legal system.

;;;
Often when a government is overthrown, the new government turns out to be even worse than what it has replaced.

Anyone who is surprised by what is goin gon in Eygpt, simply has never bothered to pay any attention to anything going on in the world.

Its like Lybia, after 40 + years with western help , they over threw their dictator ...on a supposed crusade for democracy !

Yeah , right ...you believe that , I got a couple of toll bridges crossing the Halifax Harbour for sale cheap, just bring a hundred grand cash & I sell one to you .... I am having health issues 7 just don't have time to deal with counting all the money they make each day !

[SmilezRoyale]

At 12/2/12 05:40 PM, Camarohusky wrote: This is exactly why the quest of bringing Democracy to the Middle East is a waste.

If Egypt can't handle the simple task of voting to support a Democracy, there is no way in hell places like Lybia, or Syria will be able to.

If the cultural disposition of a people is to have an Islamic theocracy with an unaccountable executive, then that's what 'democracy'will produce, and my impression is that the Egyptians got precisely the government they wanted, but I don't hold that view with much strength.

Of course that's also the danger of *uncontrolled* Muslim immigration in a western democracy.

[JMHX]

INTRO: Korriken sits at his desk, pipe in hand, adjusting his ascot. On the table, a broadsheet detailing Egypt's current crisis is laid out before him.

KORRIKEN: "When will these brown people realize they're not mentally ready for a democracy? Morsi has taken the reins of power and run away into some Muslim Thugerhood of Islamic radicalism."

JMHX: "But Korriken, my liege and tithe-lord, Morsi merely said that he was unilaterally removing the powers granted to the military by themselves in the early days of the Revolution, and that the new Constitution will be held up to a popular vo---"

KORRIKEN: "You and I both know Muslins don't have the competence for that kind of participatory democracy. Can you name me one country where the leader has, in a time of crisis, suspended the rights of some to trials and otherwise unilaterally amended the criminal code?"

JMHX: "But, sir, what about Mr. Lincoln during the Civil Wa--"

KORRIKEN: "DANIEL DAY LEWIS WAS A SAINT AND DON'T YOU DARE IMPLICATE HIM."

[Warforger]

It's not exactly dead, you have to remember when governments are overthrown many of the old officials have to remain, thus I guess Morsi feels that he needs to oversee the old Mubarak judges and replace them with new ones. This is why many of the politicians in Eastern Europe were former Communist officials. A better comparison would be with Boris Yeltsin and when he dissolved the Supreme Soviet in Russia. But so far it's still too early to tell IMO

At 12/2/12 05:59 PM, tyler2513 wrote: I think the situation in Egypt will turn into the situation currently ongoing in Syria.

The main difference between Egypt and Syria is that the people of Egypt actually want Egypt to exist as a nation whereas Syria was just an artificial nation created by the French. Thus there isn't as much instability.

[Korriken]

At 12/2/12 06:08 PM, JMHX wrote: And the award for most sensationalist topic title goes to...

I'll take it you have nothing to add. now shoo.

At 12/2/12 07:01 PM, Feoric wrote:

There is some good news, though. There's still term limits, so if the Egyptians don't want Morsi come 2016, then it won't be difficult to elect someone more moderate than him. There's also the question of what is the purpose of this move and whether he will relinquish his power.

do you REALLY think there's going to be a 2016 egyptian election? I don't. He'll simply call them off if he's not brought down a notch by then. and from the way it looks, the only people who might be able to do that would be the Egyptian military.

[Warforger]

At 12/2/12 08:10 PM, Korriken wrote: do you REALLY think there's going to be a 2016 egyptian election? I don't. He'll simply call them off if he's not brought down a notch by then. and from the way it looks, the only people who might be able to do that would be the Egyptian military.

There's still elections in Russia and Central Asia, it's just they don't mean anything. Otherwise do you seriously think the military did all that just to go back to a dictatorship?

[Korriken]

At 12/2/12 08:45 PM, Warforger wrote:

There's still elections in Russia and Central Asia, it's just they don't mean anything. Otherwise do you seriously think the military did all that just to go back to a dictatorship?

Like I said. If the military doesn't bring him down a notch. will they? hopefully. As long as the military leadership aren't Islamists themselves.

[Feoric]

At 12/2/12 08:52 PM, Korriken wrote: Like I said. If the military doesn't bring him down a notch. will they? hopefully. As long as the military leadership aren't Islamists themselves.

Morsi was the one who cleaned out SCAF a couple of months ago. All of the commanders in the Egyptian military are all appointed by Morsi. The Army would have immediately or soon after tried to oust Morsi if they weren't on his side. The thing is, if he's bold enough to issue declarations like that, then it's extremely likely he already worked out a deal with them.

[Jmayer20]

Democracy and Theocracy can not coexist with one another. Democracy goes more under the philosophy of freedom and liberty. Theocracy goes under the philosophy if control. They control how you MUST live your life and the exact form of worship you MUST. As for Egypt, all they did was replace a dictator for a religious extremist dictator. Soon Egypt will just be another Iran. Democracy in name only.

[Warforger]

At 12/2/12 08:52 PM, Korriken wrote:

At 12/2/12 08:45 PM, Warforger wrote:

There's still elections in Russia and Central Asia, it's just they don't mean anything. Otherwise do you seriously think the military did all that just to go back to a dictatorship?

Like I said. If the military doesn't bring him down a notch. will they? hopefully. As long as the military leadership aren't Islamists themselves.

The military tends to be more secular than the civilian population I assume, since the regime of Mubarek was formed by military members (i.e. Nasser). That's mainly because they tend to be trained by Westerners, although don't quote me on that because I'm not exactly sure.

[Ravariel]

At 12/2/12 07:51 PM, JMHX wrote: INTRO: Korriken sits at his desk, pipe in hand, adjusting his ascot.... etc

Hah! Well played, sir. Well played, indeed.

[Korriken]

At 12/3/12 11:30 PM, Ravariel wrote:

Hah! Well played, sir. Well played, indeed.

yeah, seriously, good job on beating down that strawman.

[JMHX]

At 12/4/12 04:59 PM, Korriken wrote:

At 12/3/12 11:30 PM, Ravariel wrote:

Hah! Well played, sir. Well played, indeed.

yeah, seriously, good job on beating down that strawman.

Straw was historically a major Egyptian export until the British pressured Mohammed Ali into deindustrialization in the 19th Century.

[Camarohusky]

At 12/4/12 05:01 PM, JMHX wrote: Straw was historically a major Egyptian export until the British pressured Mohammed Ali into deindustrialization in the 19th Century.

He's like 200 years old? No wonder he's constantly shaking.

[laughatyourfuneral]

is anyone really surprised ? this shows that most people down there are still political weaklings who cant decide for themselves