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Ericho
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 8th, 2012 @ 10:25 AM Reply

At 12/2/12 12:44 PM, poxpower wrote: It's really impossible to truly know if someone is religious or not, or was ( in the past ). The main point is that if you make it your life's work to study and interpret religious texts and still don't think it's bullshit, you are probably brain damaged.

It's impossible to know if someone is religious? I think if you study and interpret religious texts and still don't think it's bullshit, that probably makes you religious, like you said.


You know the world's gone crazy when the best rapper's a white guy and the best golfer's a black guy - Chris Rock

AcetheSuperVillain
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 8th, 2012 @ 12:22 PM Reply

Don't say "religious" if you mean "judeo-christian". As an Asatru, I have no problem believing that other gods created life on other planets. In fact, the Vanir War strongly alludes to this theory. What I know of the Hindu, Buddhist and Shinto creation stories also echos the idea that our Earth and our set of Gods are just one among many in an unknowably vast universe or multiverse. Furthermore, these religions often (not always) take the stance that religious texts are either metaphorical or as good of an explanation that metaphysical/advanced beings can make or needed to make for the sake of the stone-age or bronze-age civilizations they contacted.

Christianity being wrong does not make all religions wrong.


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LDAF
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 8th, 2012 @ 07:51 PM Reply

At 11/21/12 04:44 PM, LordJaric wrote:
At 11/21/12 04:40 PM, LordJaric wrote: A believe I heard that the Catholic Church has said that extraterrestrial life is not outside of god's plan.
One more thing (just came to me), why do people have to be so hell bent on science vs religion? I've seen people of religious stature who were scientific. And people of science say that things like evolution does not go against religon. So why? Why do people feel the need to create conflict between the two?

It's an internet thing. Joking aside, I often ask this myself. Just like you say, people are making mountains out of molehills pretty often, making fights where there really is no need to be one.

golly gee whiz, I made a somewhat-informed and intelligent post on the Politics forum!

Are you MAN enough to click this?!

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TheMason
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 9th, 2012 @ 06:06 PM Reply

I know I'm late to the post, but my thoughts on the OP's questions...

At 11/21/12 11:06 AM, Tomsan wrote: ... There is some mentioning though that can be related to aliens (forgive me for not looking it up, something with giants from the sky), but in all there seems to be a consensus that life was only created on earth.

There is a passage in The New Testament that talks about Jesus going to visit flocks in other lands too.

... This speculative discovery doesnt fit their idea of the world and the universe, so I wonder how they will give this a place.

I think there will be some with whom it will so conflict with that it will be seen as a product of the devil or atheists to take God out of the picture. So I think some percent will fight it and disbelieve.

On the other hand some will adapt. Of the Christian faiths the Mormons will do the best with this new knowledge. They already have a place for it within their tenants. See the statement about Jesus and other flocks; they don't just think Jesus was visiting the Americas...but possibly other planets too.


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Earfetish
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 9th, 2012 @ 06:08 PM Reply

At 12/9/12 06:06 PM, TheMason wrote: I know I'm late to the post, but my thoughts on the OP's questions...

At 11/21/12 11:06 AM, Tomsan wrote: ... There is some mentioning though that can be related to aliens (forgive me for not looking it up, something with giants from the sky), but in all there seems to be a consensus that life was only created on earth.
There is a passage in The New Testament that talks about Jesus going to visit flocks in other lands too.

I've just finished Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and can't see any inference at all that there might be aliens. Care to provide a quote?

TheMason
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 9th, 2012 @ 07:19 PM Reply

At 12/9/12 06:08 PM, Earfetish wrote:
At 12/9/12 06:06 PM, TheMason wrote: I know I'm late to the post, but my thoughts on the OP's questions...
I've just finished Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and can't see any inference at all that there might be aliens. Care to provide a quote?

John 10:16
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be cone fold, and one shepherd."

Now the Mormons use this quote in John to say when Jesus speaks of this he is not only talking about Gentiles and their conversion or Jews who are not Messianic. This is their basis for The Book of Mormon and for Jesus coming to America.

In the time I spent as a Mormon with Mormons we talked about the possiblity of alien life, and again this reference was brought up. If Jesus had sheep in other lands and after his crucifiction he went to visit them...could this not only mean he visited the Americas but other planets as well?

I can see how some may think this is a stretch or twisting of scripture or reading what they want to into scripture and thereby reject it. However, this is doctrine for between 6-14 million Christians. If life is proven to exist on other planets, this interpretation would look prescient and could help the church gain converts.


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Earfetish
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 9th, 2012 @ 07:43 PM Reply

At 12/9/12 07:19 PM, TheMason wrote:
At 12/9/12 06:08 PM, Earfetish wrote:
At 12/9/12 06:06 PM, TheMason wrote: I know I'm late to the post, but my thoughts on the OP's questions...
I've just finished Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and can't see any inference at all that there might be aliens. Care to provide a quote?
John 10:16
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be cone fold, and one shepherd."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=
NET

I read this passage in context and it makes no sense. It seems like Jesus is saying that he is the salvation for the world, "I am the door for the sheep," but I don't get how it refers to aliens at all. Also he walks around all over the show in the NT so that kinda explains the " have other sheep that do not come from this sheepfold. I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, so that there will be one flock and one shepherd" bit. Maybe you can explain it.

poxpower
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 9th, 2012 @ 10:46 PM Reply

At 12/9/12 07:19 PM, TheMason wrote: I can see how some may think this is a stretch or twisting of scripture or reading what they want to into scripture and thereby reject it. However, this is doctrine for between 6-14 million Christians. If life is proven to exist on other planets, this interpretation would look prescient and could help the church gain converts.

At what point is it legally OK to call someone stupid? I mean. Come on man. haha. Fucking people. THE BIBLE MENTIONS " OTHER PEOPLE" THESE MUST REFER TO ALIENS...

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA

mars discovery > religion


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Nayruu
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 12:41 PM Reply

At 12/9/12 10:46 PM, poxpower wrote:
At what point is it legally OK to call someone stupid? I mean. Come on man. haha. Fucking people. THE BIBLE MENTIONS " OTHER PEOPLE" THESE MUST REFER TO ALIENS...

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA

Gentlemen, THIS is what I call a well-structured argument by a intelligent, mature and reasonable adult person. And if it's an attempt on satire, or humor, or whatever, you absolutely failed.
I sometimes think that poxpower's just trolling. No rational person would ever say these thing if it wasn't a joke.

poxpower
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 02:24 PM Reply

At 12/11/12 12:41 PM, Nayruu wrote:
Gentlemen, THIS is what I call a well-structured argument by a intelligent, mature and reasonable adult person. And if it's an attempt on satire, or humor, or whatever, you absolutely failed.
I sometimes think that poxpower's just trolling. No rational person would ever say these thing if it wasn't a joke.

And who's intelligent, mature and reasonable adult's alternate account are YOU exactly? Too intelligent, mature and reasonable to use your main account, or were you so intelligent, mature and reasonable that you got banned for being TOO intelligent, mature and reasonable?

Lol

But seriously, there IS a point at which believing dumb things has to fall into the range of stupidity or else we invented that word for nothing and a lot of quotes people use to try and own people in arguments stop making sense :,(

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-Einstein

Stupidity? Does he mean "averageness" or "genius"?? WHAT YOU SAYING EINSTEIN?

I leave you with this choice quote about religious stupids, which wins the internet:

"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education."


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TheMason
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 11th, 2012 @ 11:35 PM Reply

At 12/9/12 10:46 PM, poxpower wrote:
At what point is it legally OK to call someone stupid? I mean.

At any point you're talking? ;)

But seriously...

Don't confuse what I'm saying as what I personally believe. The OP asked a question as an atheist about religion and if the existence of ET life was proven...and how it would adapt.

There is a ready example in the theology of the Mormons. This is something that Mormons believe...this is their teachings. Yes it is a stretch and most likely is not what Jesus is getting at in sheep herder analogy.

But that is totally beside the point.

The real point I was getting at is there is some precedence for religions to adapt and understand scripture through modern 'revelation' or understanding.


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hostileburritos
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 02:44 AM Reply

At 12/9/12 10:46 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 12/9/12 07:19 PM, TheMason wrote: I can see how some may think this is a stretch or twisting of scripture or reading what they want to into scripture and thereby reject it. However, this is doctrine for between 6-14 million Christians. If life is proven to exist on other planets, this interpretation would look prescient and could help the church gain converts.
At what point is it legally OK to call someone stupid? I mean. Come on man. haha. Fucking people. THE BIBLE MENTIONS " OTHER PEOPLE" THESE MUST REFER TO ALIENS...

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA

Not sure if trolling ???

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAARRAHSDFHSDAHFA

Earfetish
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 10:34 AM Reply

Instead of criticising the discourse, why not stick to the subject and discuss whether or not a reasonable person could infer that the NT contains reference to aliens? To be honest, I reckon trying to twist that NT passage into a claim that Jesus knows about aliens is a hard sell, too. That line is almost throwaway and has nought to do with the central point of the parable.

poxpower
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 12th, 2012 @ 02:02 PM Reply

At 12/11/12 11:35 PM, TheMason wrote:
Don't confuse what I'm saying as what I personally believe.

I know you don't believe that.

The real point I was getting at is there is some precedence for religions to adapt and understand scripture through modern 'revelation' or understanding.

Well yeah that's why I call them idiots.
One day, the earth is DEFINITELY a giant disk floating in space, because God said so, but the next day the earth is A SPHERE, because God said so.

That's pretty stupid. Haha. They always do this. What's that quote again? At first they reject facts, then they try to ignore them and in the end they say they knew them all along.

They're child-like in their rationalizations, hypocrisy and general stupidity. I mean, seriously, my point is pretty fair. If you spend your whole life trying to twist little bible passages around so it KIND of makes sense and MAYBE you can pretend Jesus was talking about vaccination and carbon nanotubes... well you're an idiot. Seriously.

Did you ever watch debates between religious scholars and atheists? Lol. Francis Collins, Dinesh D'souza and others... They're clearly stupid. They use all the same arguments I'd hear and laugh at when I was fucking ten years old yet they're respected professionals haha. So sad.


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TheMason
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 07:37 AM Reply

At 12/12/12 10:34 AM, Earfetish wrote: Instead of criticising the discourse, why not stick to the subject and discuss whether or not a reasonable person could infer that the NT contains reference to aliens? To be honest, I reckon trying to twist that NT passage into a claim that Jesus knows about aliens is a hard sell, too. That line is almost throwaway and has nought to do with the central point of the parable.

Here's the main point Ear...

In the 19th century there was a theological discussion as to whether or not Jesus came over here. As cultural interchanges with Mesoamerican cultures occured, theories began to abound about whether or not Gods like Quatzequatel was in fact Jesus.

So people were looking for signs of Christ over here. One of the passages cited was the one I cited...that Jesus would bring other sheep into the fold. Not only did he bring the Gentiles of the known world...but why couldn't a man who turns blood into wine and come back to life three days after crucifiction also visit Native Americans?

Remember, faith in Jesus requires faith in a supernatural being who possesses supernatural powers.

But the point is this: Mormonism (along with a few other sects that died out) is an authentically American religion that expanded Christian belief to incorporate an expanding view of the world.

Now, if someone proved that there was alien life Christianity would have to either adjust or wither...just like the expansion of our knowledge of the world with the discover of two new continents led to Mormons through new interpretations of scripture.

Finally, I am agnostic...but I'm an all in or all out kind of agnostic. If God exists and Christ is His son...then we are talking about beings with incredible power. This means several things:

1) He'd have knowledge of all life in the universe.
2) He'd speak in parables that people of the day could understand, hence he would not come out and say "and also sheep on other planets". That would confuse the hell out of His followers.

So no...I don't think that it is all that much of a stretch to see how this single verse could include aliens. Afterall, it is just one more fold.


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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 12:35 PM Reply

At 12/14/12 07:37 AM, TheMason wrote: In the 19th century there was a theological discussion as to whether or not Jesus came over here. As cultural interchanges with Mesoamerican cultures occured, theories began to abound about whether or not Gods like Quatzequatel was in fact Jesus.

Religions all over the world have been masters at absorbing new concepts and/or local ideas into the religions.

Just look at Christmas and Halloween. Both of those days started as pagan rituals based on the sun and its relation with crops and life. Christianity then went about not only incorporating those dates into its cannon, but making them holy days (the birth of Jesus and All Saints Day. Called all hallows day making the night before all hallows evening -> Halloween).

The Eastern religions, namely Buddhism, has done this throughout its entire existence. When Jesuits missionaries went to China in the 17-19th Centuries they didn't succeed in supplanting Buddhism, rather the local Buddhists incorporated Jesus as a Buddha or a Bodhisattva and essentially brought the Bible in as a portion of the Buddhist teachings. In Japan Shinto shrines and Buddhist Temples are often indistinguishable from each other. The Japanese Shinto gods as well as other local pagan gods were incorporated into the Buddhist teachings as various types of holy figures.

The existence of aliens will be the same. As one catholic Bible I had put it in the forward: This Book is a work of metaphors meant to teach and guide. Nothing in this book is irreconcilable with science as the stories found within are not literally stated.

Just as the Genesis was expanded from seven strict days to seven metapjorical days to incorporate scientific evidence of evolution and such, so will the scripture be expanded to incorporate any evidence of extraterrestrial life.

Just because there will always be a group of dimwitted ninnies who plug their collective ears shouting "I can't hear you! You're not saying anything!" and go on believing things that have been empirically refuted, does not mean the massive majority will not move forward with the evidence. Nor does it make the believers of the religion who do accept the new evidence stupid.

TheMason
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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 14th, 2012 @ 04:06 PM Reply

At 12/14/12 12:35 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
Just because there will always be a group of dimwitted ninnies who plug their collective ears shouting "I can't hear you! You're not saying anything!" and go on believing things that have been empirically refuted, does not mean the massive majority will not move forward with the evidence. Nor does it make the believers of the religion who do accept the new evidence stupid.

Well said Camaro. That is the point I was driving at. Some will probably believe alien life is demonic and tools of the devil. Others will convert to atheism as their belief structure. Finally, the rest will incorporate it into their belief systems. This may involve some creative re-interpretation. This is a pattern we see repeated throughout history.

But we'll always have people fighting about it. Funny...even the people who think religion is stupid and a waste of time...seem to enjoy talking about how stupid and wasteful talking about it is. :)


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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 22nd, 2012 @ 09:42 PM Reply

Space and god? God being all imagination and space being things we see with a telescope. I believe in that old theory of an government creating religion to control the population. Maybe not the government, but some person who wanted to get rich quick. Space on the other hand is a part of our reality. It's there if we like it or not. Battling religion is only battling someones imagination.


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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 23rd, 2012 @ 08:52 AM Reply

Assuming they did find some signs of life, I don't think that would obliterate religion, so I don't understand your title. Religious people, especially Christians, have been dealing with the "oh my god aliens" line of thought for decades. There is even a famous painting (can't remember the name) where people claim there is a "ufo" present in the background. Do you honestly think religion could not simply adapt as it has been doing for centuries?


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Response to mars discovery > religion Dec. 25th, 2012 @ 05:00 PM Reply

It doesn't matter what kind of evidence is found to support a more scientific perspective on the origins of our universe. The truth is, no matter what kind of truth is presented, those who do not possess an open mind will still reject the idea. So long as people continue to blindly follow their faith, religion will exist in spite of what kinds of scientific discoveries there are.


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