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poxpower
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-21 21:25:44 Reply

At 11/21/12 08:19 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
There's no way you can ask the 400 million people in America to behave like the 10 million in Greenland or something.

That sounds completely arbitrary haha.
So 10 million people can get along, but not 400?


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leanlifter1
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-21 21:36:16 Reply

At 11/21/12 09:25 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 11/21/12 08:19 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
There's no way you can ask the 400 million people in America to behave like the 10 million in Greenland or something.
That sounds completely arbitrary haha.
So 10 million people can get along, but not 400?

No I think what he is saying is we need to normalize the Global population by way of sending people from high density population countries to lower population countries.


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Warforger
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-22 01:56:34 Reply

At 11/21/12 09:24 PM, TheKlown wrote: Tell Democrats to stop taxing his business even more then.

Um he's not firing workers because he has to, he's threatening to fire them just because he doesn't like the Democratic party. By comparison let's say the United Autoworkers Union threatened to go on strike nationwide and paralyze the Auto industry if Romney was elected, would you think that was a mature response?


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Poniiboi
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-25 03:18:20 Reply

At 11/21/12 09:25 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 11/21/12 08:19 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
There's no way you can ask the 400 million people in America to behave like the 10 million in Greenland or something.
That sounds completely arbitrary haha.
So 10 million people can get along, but not 400?

To extrapolate numbers is a straw man's argument. Use common sense. That's all I'll say there.

And to the guy who keeps bringing back the tax argument, higher taxes cause increases in business and employment. There's no way you can't know that, guy...that's like 10th grade Econ...


no, really...DON'T CLICK THE PIC

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leanlifter1
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-25 03:31:09 Reply

At 11/25/12 03:18 AM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
At 11/21/12 09:25 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 11/21/12 08:19 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
There's no way you can ask the 400 million people in America to behave like the 10 million in Greenland or something.
That sounds completely arbitrary haha.
So 10 million people can get along, but not 400?
To extrapolate numbers is a straw man's argument. Use common sense. That's all I'll say there.

I think the ideal is and I agree with it is that if an extremely large number of people can get along generally speaking which is a fact then many more can also get along as it is a very small percentage of trouble makers in American society.

And to the guy who keeps bringing back the tax argument, higher taxes cause increases in business and employment.

Says who ? In theory ? What if the employer can't or does not want to pay higher taxes ?

There's no way you can't know that, guy...that's like 10th grade Econ...
So you are going to base a failing society on 10th grade economics instead of maybe stop and think for a min that perhaps 10th grade economics was wrong.


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SmilezRoyale
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-25 08:53:52 Reply

I think the main factor behind unusually high CEO pay is the fact that the conventional methods for Shareholders reigning in CEO excess do not exist. The principle method for regulating CEOs in the past was the corporate takeover.


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Ericho
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-25 10:51:39 Reply

I didn't know that was something that affected all the employees of Papa John's. Geez, I have this habit where I try to go to a new restaurant to eat every couple of weeks, but now that both Papa John's and Chic-fil-a are opposed to good things, I guess I can cross those off. What's next, is McDonald's going to be involved in hunting endangered species?


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orangebomb
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-25 17:06:43 Reply

At 11/25/12 10:51 AM, Ericho wrote: but now that both Papa John's and Chic-fil-a are opposed to good things, I guess I can cross those off.

To be fair, Chick-fil-a is a franchisee operation, which means that individual restaurants are owned by business men/women and not directly by the CEO themselves. Obviously, some of them don't share the same viewpoint of the CEO, and have tried to stress their different viewpoint when the CEO denounced gay marriage.

As for Papa John's, that's not the case. {at least I don't think}


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Camarohusky
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-25 19:35:06 Reply

At 11/25/12 08:53 AM, SmilezRoyale wrote: I think the main factor behind unusually high CEO pay is the fact that the conventional methods for Shareholders reigning in CEO excess do not exist. The principle method for regulating CEOs in the past was the corporate takeover.

Nah, they definitely exist, they're just horrifically impractical.

The shareholders can object to the pay of an officer, and if that's not heeded they can vote out the board with a board who will put the officers the shareholders want in.

The problem with this is that there are rarely any shareholders with enough votes to do anything, and that includes institutional shareholders like banks, mutuals, and other funds. They need to build coalitions, and then get millions of proxies. This takes effort and costs money, when if the shit really was hitting the fan it would almost always be cheaper to sell the stock and move on to greener pastures. Oftentimes the average shareholder doesn;t care enough or know enough to do anything about it.

A second option is the shareholder derivative suit. This is also a very tough option as not only are there numerous qualifications that the shareholder initiating the suit has to satisfy, and then if they pass that part the issue gets bogged down in a messy and drawn out legal battle. The burden for a derivative suit is quite high, to the point where even the most extravagant compensation plans by themselves are not even enough. Even if the suit succeeds, the cost of the suit and oftentimes even the damages of the suit, are paid by the corporation and result in a drop in the share value through direct damage payments, a sharp rise in D&O Insurance (and other like insurances), and/or a massive pr hit.

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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 11:43:56 Reply

At 11/25/12 03:31 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 11/25/12 03:18 AM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
At 11/21/12 09:25 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 11/21/12 08:19 PM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
There's no way you can ask the 400 million people in America to behave like the 10 million in Greenland or something.
That sounds completely arbitrary haha.
So 10 million people can get along, but not 400?
To extrapolate numbers is a straw man's argument. Use common sense. That's all I'll say there.
I think the ideal is and I agree with it is that if an extremely large number of people can get along generally speaking which is a fact then many more can also get along as it is a very small percentage of trouble makers in American society.

I do not know what this sentence means.


And to the guy who keeps bringing back the tax argument, higher taxes cause increases in business and employment.
Says who ? In theory ? What if the employer can't or does not want to pay higher taxes ?

There's no way you can't know that, guy...that's like 10th grade Econ...
So you are going to base a failing society on 10th grade economics instead of maybe stop and think for a min that perhaps 10th grade economics was wrong.

High school economics come distilled from more complex structures that have been proven true, just like arithmetic comes filtered from calculus. And though I do agree with you that our public school system does leave something to be desired, any school that teaches Econ in 10th grade likely has the resources to stay up to date on current information.

Your extrapolative assumption that 10th grade Econ is in general "wrong" has no merit either in the ideal or practical application.

And your argument that an employer "can't or doesn't want to pay higher taxes" - ummm...what? Taxes are a percentage of income. You only pay more if you make more. Taxes alone won't bankrupt you. Mathematically they can't, as a PERCENTAGE. And as for "doesn't want to," who are you, Wesley Snipes? Who cares if you don't want to pay taxes?

This argument was weak all around. Boycott Papa Johns.


no, really...DON'T CLICK THE PIC

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LemonCrush
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 12:41:36 Reply

At 11/26/12 11:43 AM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
This argument was weak all around. Boycott Papa Johns.

Give a good reason first.

Boycott him because he wants to keep the money he earned? That's bullshit.

leanlifter1
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 13:16:52 Reply

At 11/26/12 12:41 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 11/26/12 11:43 AM, SenatorJohnDean wrote:
This argument was weak all around. Boycott Papa Johns.
Give a good reason first.

Boycott him because he wants to keep the money he earned? That's bullshit.

He didn't earn it his employees did the work for him. Nobody needs or deserves 100 of millions. In other words Pizza is not valuable enough to justify that much money to one person.


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LemonCrush
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 14:13:21 Reply

At 11/26/12 01:16 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
He didn't earn it his employees did the work for him. Nobody needs or deserves 100 of millions. In other words Pizza is not valuable enough to justify that much money to one person.

And who are you to decide how much money he should have? Who the fuck is Obama to decide how much money someone deserves? I think the only person who should decide how much money someone should have, is the consumer buying the goods or services they provide. So while YOU may not think he deserves $11 for a pizza, plenty of people out there do, that's how he became wealthy. He provided something for a price that people thought would be a good exchange. That's how economics works, and how wealth is created.

By your logic, you don't deserve to eat. Someone else grew that food for you. So by your logic, you don't deserve it, right? Since someone did the work (growing/farming) for you...

leanlifter1
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 14:42:58 Reply

At 11/26/12 02:13 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 11/26/12 01:16 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
He didn't earn it his employees did the work for him. Nobody needs or deserves 100 of millions. In other words Pizza is not valuable enough to justify that much money to one person.
And who are you to decide how much money he should have? Who the fuck is Obama to decide how much money someone deserves? I think the only person who should decide how much money someone should have, is the consumer buying the goods or services they provide. So while YOU may not think he deserves $11 for a pizza, plenty of people out there do, that's how he became wealthy. He provided something for a price that people thought would be a good exchange. That's how economics works, and how wealth is created.

The point is that the free market monetary economics is flawed and that's why it is failing by way of inflating the economy and debasing the currency. In this case the value is not inherently in the product which is pizza it is the people that make the pizza that are the value not Papa Johns and it's CEOs. The owner of Papa Johns cannot produce 100s of millions of dollars worth of Pizza in a year by himself which is why he is not worth that much or at leased should not be. Papa John is a scum sucking parasite on his employees and a case in point of why American society has failed on the fundamental level.


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LemonCrush
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 15:00:39 Reply

At 11/26/12 02:42 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
The point is that the free market monetary economics is flawed and that's why it is failing by way of inflating the economy and debasing the currency. In this case the value is not inherently in the product which is pizza it is the people that make the pizza that are the value not Papa Johns and it's CEOs. The owner of Papa Johns cannot produce 100s of millions of dollars worth of Pizza in a year by himself which is why he is not worth that much or at leased should not be. Papa John is a scum sucking parasite on his employees and a case in point of why American society has failed on the fundamental level.

Actually, free market economics is the only system in which all participants in an economic transaction have equal power to each other, and the only economic system that keeps morality (or lack of, I suppose) in check.

Free market economics do not inflate or debase currency. In fact they do the opposite. I don't expect you to realize this, because you've probably been taught (deceived) that the modern system in place is free market and/or capitalism (it isn't). In fact, I'd like to know who you think is a free market capitalist. Just list some off. Here's a hint: Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Mitt Romney, etc, are not capitalists...

The value IS inherent in the pizza and the service of delivering it. Do you think he just poofed that money into existence himself? No. He was paid those millions by people who like his pizza enough to exchange money for it.

leanlifter1
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 15:38:24 Reply

At 11/26/12 03:00 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
The value IS inherent in the pizza and the service of delivering it. Do you think he just poofed that money into existence himself? No. He was paid those millions by people who like his pizza enough to exchange money for it.

Papa John did not make the fuckin pizza and that's why he is not worth as much as he currently has. Papa Johns employees made the value and raked in the currency which is a case in point of how flawed American econ is. Let's see the share holders and Papa John try and make as much profit as his employees do. Papa john is a parasite just like all other money manipulators and bean counters that actually produce nothing for society but still somehow reap the rewards more than the people that actually do produce product and services that create the real value that the fake value is based upon.


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LemonCrush
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 15:46:17 Reply

At 11/26/12 03:38 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
Papa John did not make the fuckin pizza and that's why he is not worth as much as he currently has. Papa Johns employees made the value and raked in the currency which is a case in point of how flawed American econ is. Let's see the share holders and Papa John try and make as much profit as his employees do. Papa john is a parasite just like all other money manipulators and bean counters that actually produce nothing for society but still somehow reap the rewards more than the people that actually do produce product and services that create the real value that the fake value is based upon.

He employs the people who do make the pizza. Keep in mind that they are free to come and go as they please as well. His employees work for him, make the pizzas and are paid by him.

So yes, no matter how many ways you twist it, he is providing services and goods for people who pay him for it. He in turn pays his employees, suppliers, etc.

It's all very basic.

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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 16:00:43 Reply

At 11/26/12 03:46 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 11/26/12 03:38 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
Papa John did not make the fuckin pizza and that's why he is not worth as much as he currently has. Papa Johns employees made the value and raked in the currency which is a case in point of how flawed American econ is. Let's see the share holders and Papa John try and make as much profit as his employees do. Papa john is a parasite just like all other money manipulators and bean counters that actually produce nothing for society but still somehow reap the rewards more than the people that actually do produce product and services that create the real value that the fake value is based upon.
He employs the people who do make the pizza. Keep in mind that they are free to come and go as they please as well. His employees work for him, make the pizzas and are paid by him.

So yes, no matter how many ways you twist it, he is providing services and goods for people who pay him for it. He in turn pays his employees, suppliers, etc.

It's all very basic.

No he is not producing anything he is a useless figure head of a shitty pizza company. Just because there are a bunch of uneducated lost sheep that will unwittingly put up with abuses and dehumanization and subjugation does not justify Papa Johns as a parasite on the working class. If free market Capitalism was the great system that you guy's try and claim then Papa John would be outta of business and not un proportionally wealthy instead he is a fat cat with a rotating garage with 15 rollsroyce limos.


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LemonCrush
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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 16:07:37 Reply

At 11/26/12 04:00 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
No he is not producing anything he is a useless figure head of a shitty pizza company. Just because there are a bunch of uneducated lost sheep that will unwittingly put up with abuses and dehumanization and subjugation does not justify Papa Johns as a parasite on the working class. If free market Capitalism was the great system that you guy's try and claim then Papa John would be outta of business and not un proportionally wealthy instead he is a fat cat with a rotating garage with 15 rollsroyce limos.

It is their CHOICE to work for him! They know the pay sucks, they know the job sucks. They CHOOSE to do it, 100% by their own free will.

Just as his consumers made a CHOICE to buy his pizza, which he has turned into wealth.

Even in a free market system he would still be in a business because people CHOOSE to work for him, and CHOOSE to buy his pizza.

This is the problem with you communists. You have no concept or understanding of the human mind's desire to choose for themselves.

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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 16:37:53 Reply

At 11/26/12 04:07 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
It is their CHOICE to work for him! They know the pay sucks, they know the job sucks. They CHOOSE to do it, 100% by their own free will.

It's one shit job or the next they are all the same and many of those people have no other choice but to work a shit job because of intellect, skill or rather lack of skill, mental and or physical retardation's etc.

Just as his consumers made a CHOICE to buy his pizza, which he has turned into wealth.

No papa johns employes created the value that in turn created un proportionate wealth for the few not the many. The employees own the value collectively not papa john and to think he does is tantamount to modern slavery.

This is the problem with you communists. You have no concept or understanding of the human mind's desire to choose for themselves.

Pure Communism would enable more freedoms and choice for the many not more choice and freedoms for the few as in today's society you are only as free as your bank account allows you to be. It is only the very very few ultra rich that stand to loose in a true Communist society and world and the one thing they would have to forgo is greed. In a true Communist society you and I "The People" would enjoy so much more freedoms and tangible wealth than would otherwise ever be mathematically possible in today's realm of illegitimate monetary based economics. When the Pure Communist Euphoria is attained this planet will become a beacon of enlightenment and joy beyond our wildest dreams.


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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 17:11:48 Reply

I wonder if people realize that the Federation in Star Trek: The Next Generation is basically a communist regime.

I think ideas like communism and anarchy/ hardcore libertarianism can/might only be feasible given a level of technology that is superior to the one we currently have.


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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 17:51:59 Reply

At 11/26/12 04:37 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
It's one shit job or the next they are all the same and many of those people have no other choice but to work a shit job because of intellect, skill or rather lack of skill, mental and or physical retardation's etc.

They have a choice. If they're stuck in shitty jobs, it's either because they're too dumb to go to college, or companies can't hire people because of taxation or any other myriad financial issues.

No papa johns employes created the value that in turn created un proportionate wealth for the few not the many. The employees own the value collectively not papa john and to think he does is tantamount to modern slavery.

It isn't unproportional. How many franchises/stores does he have, how many people do they each employ, and how many pizzas and deliveries has his company made (due to his investment). If you're using financial contribution/gain as a totem for how much he deserves, than if anything he deserves more...

This is the problem with you communists. You have no concept or understanding of the human mind's desire to choose for themselves.
Pure Communism would enable more freedoms and choice for the many not more choice and freedoms for the few as in today's society you are only as free as your bank account allows you to be

Yeah. I'm sure the Chinese, people who grew up in the USSR, N. Koreans, and Cubans would love to hear you espouse the greatness of communism.

In communism, you're only as free as the government allows you to be.

Communism is great...if people CHOOSE to do it, as say, the Amish, or Native Americans did. But actual practical communism, like Maoism, takes away freedoms, wealth and lives of it's constituency.

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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 17:53:39 Reply

At 11/26/12 05:11 PM, poxpower wrote: I think ideas like communism and anarchy/ hardcore libertarianism can/might only be feasible given a level of technology that is superior to the one we currently have.

Anarchy has no links in practice or ideals, with libertarianism.

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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 18:36:14 Reply

At 11/26/12 05:53 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
Anarchy has no links in practice or ideals, with libertarianism.

Anarchism is just libertarianism taken one step further.

"Libertarianism is the group of political philosophies that advocates minimizing coercion and emphasizes freedom, liberty, and voluntary association. Libertarians generally advocate a society with significantly less government compared to most present day societies."

"Anarchism is generally defined as a political philosophy which holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful,[1][2][3] or, alternatively, as opposing authority or hierarchical organization in the conduct of human relations.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Proponents of anarchism, known as "anarchists", advocate stateless societies based on voluntary associations.[11][12]"

==========================


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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 19:26:34 Reply

At 11/26/12 05:51 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
Yeah. I'm sure the Chinese, people who grew up in the USSR, N. Koreans, and Cubans would love to hear you espouse the greatness of communism.

True Communism has no Government as well there has never been real Communism in history ever it has always been a corrupted form of Quasi something or other under the guise of Communism.


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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 20:04:06 Reply

At 11/26/12 06:36 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 11/26/12 05:53 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
Anarchy has no links in practice or ideals, with libertarianism.
Anarchism is just libertarianism taken one step further.

"Libertarianism is the group of political philosophies that advocates minimizing coercion and emphasizes freedom, liberty, and voluntary association. Libertarians generally advocate a society with significantly less government compared to most present day societies."

"Anarchism is generally defined as a political philosophy which holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful,[1][2][3] or, alternatively, as opposing authority or hierarchical organization in the conduct of human relations.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Proponents of anarchism, known as "anarchists", advocate stateless societies based on voluntary associations.[11][12]"

You proved my point. There's nothing there that says they are in anyway related. The whole point of anarchism...at least according to the definiton you posted here, is no government. Libertarianism doesn't believe in no government.

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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 20:16:45 Reply

At 11/26/12 08:04 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
You proved my point. There's nothing there that says they are in anyway related. The whole point of anarchism...at least according to the definiton you posted here, is no government. Libertarianism doesn't believe in no government.

So you can't see the similarities at all?
You can't see how the only difference between "almost no government" and "no government" is "almost". Haha.

They're almost the exact same idea. Read the articles. Libertarians are just moderate anarchists, basically.


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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 20:25:37 Reply

At 11/26/12 08:16 PM, poxpower wrote:

:moderate anarchists

Oxymoron

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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-26 20:53:39 Reply

At 11/26/12 08:25 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 11/26/12 08:16 PM, poxpower wrote:
moderate anarchists
Oxymoron

No, an anarchist isn't someone bend on violently destroying the government.
It can just be living in a stateless society. Many of them think this is possible without requiring violence. I think they even wanted to buy an island where they could go live without a government, under the theory that if they self-organize they will succeed better.

You should listen to their arguments, they are exactly the same as Libertarians in every respect.
The only difference is that Libertarians concede that you do need a government for SOME things or that a form of government is inevitable anyway.


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Response to Boycott Papa Johns 2012-11-27 16:46:14 Reply

At 11/26/12 08:53 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 11/26/12 08:25 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
At 11/26/12 08:16 PM, poxpower wrote:
moderate anarchists
Oxymoron
No, an anarchist isn't someone bend on violently destroying the government.
It can just be living in a stateless society. Many of them think this is possible without requiring violence. I think they even wanted to buy an island where they could go live without a government, under the theory that if they self-organize they will succeed better.

Depends on the Anarchist. I'm inclined to think that many, perhaps most, of the people that use that label for themselves in the present want to 'smash the state' --> Of course some self described anarchists are just Social democrats that wear black and don't want to admit that their views are incredibly mainstream. But it's hard to know what the actual percentages of the distributions of self-described anarchists are with respect to views...

But anyway. I still think what you said was correct and Golf claps for what what an insightful clarification.


On a moving train there are no centrists, only radicals and reactionaries.