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Tankdown
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A good non voter Nov. 6th, 2012 @ 07:20 PM Reply

I had an argument with my mother recently. I told her I didn't vote because I knew nothing about the people in National or local levels. If I walked in and selected random candidates based on ...what names, heard about, or ethical background?

Yes, I am a bad civilian by not knowing anything up to this point. Let the remarks be of good reasons when a person decides not to vote.


My logic has a tendency of getting me getting stuck in the middle.

leanlifter1
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Response to A good non voter Nov. 6th, 2012 @ 07:25 PM Reply

At 11/6/12 07:20 PM, Tankdown wrote: I had an argument with my mother recently. I told her I didn't vote because I knew nothing about the people in National or local levels. If I walked in and selected random candidates based on ...what names, heard about, or ethical background?

Yes, I am a bad civilian by not knowing anything up to this point. Let the remarks be of good reasons when a person decides not to vote.

Most people do not know enough about the way the world works to cast a well informed valid vote. You did well grass hopper.


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 6th, 2012 @ 07:28 PM Reply

At 11/6/12 07:25 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Most people do not know enough about the way the world works to cast a well informed valid vote. You did well grass hopper.

I hate how that's worded....Don't you think any level of being practical could have fit in this picture? For instance one argument thrown is trusting the opinions of those close to me.


My logic has a tendency of getting me getting stuck in the middle.

leanlifter1
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Response to A good non voter Nov. 6th, 2012 @ 07:37 PM Reply

At 11/6/12 07:28 PM, Tankdown wrote:
At 11/6/12 07:25 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Most people do not know enough about the way the world works to cast a well informed valid vote. You did well grass hopper.
I hate how that's worded....Don't you think any level of being practical could have fit in this picture? For instance one argument thrown is trusting the opinions of those close to me.

Well that is up to your discretion but if you truly do not really know than how are you to make an informed decision. If the school system did not teach you how the world actually works then how is anyone that comes from the school system going to show you the truth ?


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 6th, 2012 @ 08:27 PM Reply

As has been said in my bad voting thread, an uninformed vote does nothing but cancel out an informed vote.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 7th, 2012 @ 09:40 PM Reply

Only allowing "smart" people to vote means that we would effectively stop being a democracy. There are endless reasons to argue for one group or another not being sufficiently educated or informed to make a good decision, but when you cancel all those people out who are you left with? If one or two percent of the population is voting, how are we any different then an oligarchy or a plutocracy? Why not just find the "smartest" people in a country and have them run a monarchy or aristocracy together?

Oh wait, that didn't work out to well did it? You would get a century or two or enlightened rulers and then a century or two of madness, corruption, and barbarism with mediocrity in the middle. Not such a different result then a democracy, except that most people have no stake in the government. I also remember that a lot of those governments ended with a whole lot of people getting their heads chops off and a number of years out outright anarchy.

I prefer the inefficient and ineffective mess that is democracy. It may not be able to deal with big issues well or quickly, but it also reduces the speed and efficiency or really bad and damaging policies. That gives a population some time and breathing room to change course before it is too late.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 7th, 2012 @ 09:46 PM Reply

At 11/7/12 09:40 PM, DaKnOb3 wrote: Only allowing "smart" people to vote means that we would effectively stop being a democracy.

Let me just stop you right there because the USA was never a Democracy it is officially a Republic.


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 7th, 2012 @ 10:02 PM Reply

Most working class Americans don't have the time to research a politician's views, fiscal plans, foreign policy, etc. Uninformed citizens either just vote by party or don't vote at all. Really the most important thing to consider when voting for a candidate on the national level is foreign policy. Your local government legislation generally has a much greater impact on schools, roads, fire departments/police, amendments and pretty much all the spending throughout your entire county.

However, when I lived in Jax beach, funding given to rebuild all of our roads and freshen up our public schools was federal dollars from the Obama stimulus. That's an example of using government spending to boost circulation and consumer spending in a period of recession, an economically liberal alternative to tax cuts.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 7th, 2012 @ 10:02 PM Reply

At 11/7/12 09:46 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 11/7/12 09:40 PM, DaKnOb3 wrote: Only allowing "smart" people to vote means that we would effectively stop being a democracy.
Let me just stop you right there because the USA was never a Democracy it is officially a Republic.

While that is technically true, calling us a republic is at least equally inaccurate as calling us a democracy, since it lumps us in with the aristocracies, oligarchies, and Africa and Asia that we have very little in common with. Even calling the US a federal republic lumps us in with Russia and Myanmar, which is an almost equally poor comparison. Calling us a democratic republic would lump us in with Congo and places like that. Of course, democracies are a type of republic even though perfect democracies do not exist in the modern world just to add to the confusion.

Calling us a republic doesn't solve the problem of it being too general a description, just as democracy is too general a description. After all, there are literally hundreds of republics worldwide that bear almost no resemblance to each other. Many of them are a republic in name only with the faintest wisp of republican institutions, like the Islamic Republic of Iran. You see what I'm getting at here?

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 7th, 2012 @ 10:08 PM Reply

At 11/7/12 10:02 PM, DaKnOb3 wrote:
At 11/7/12 09:46 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 11/7/12 09:40 PM, DaKnOb3 wrote: Only allowing "smart" people to vote means that we would effectively stop being a democracy.
Let me just stop you right there because the USA was never a Democracy it is officially a Republic.
While that is technically true, calling us a republic is at least equally inaccurate as calling us a democracy, since it lumps us in with the aristocracies, oligarchies, and Africa and Asia that we have very little in common with.

I know it's hard to swallow but the fact is the USA is a Republic not unlike "The Peoples Republic of China" also the USA is text book Fascist I know it's another hard pill to swallow but once you remove your preconceived ego from you idealism's and nation it all becomes clear.


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 15th, 2012 @ 03:56 PM Reply

Okay....aside from the few bad answers the topic turned away into silly semantics.

At 11/6/12 07:37 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Well that is up to your discretion but if you truly do not really know than how are you to make an informed decision. If the school system did not teach you how the world actually works then how is anyone that comes from the school system going to show you the truth ?

Whatever or not I have a decision is irrelevant. As the question is a "what if" circumstance and covers anything remotely possible. Is there someone who's decision I trust on who to vote for? I'm asking for your opinion on the possible scenario, not whatever I have a decision. Essentially if your opinion would have made me a better voter......You would have save me time by not posting this rhetoric. Also the bad analogy of the school system is a red herring. First it assumes who the person I may trust came from the aid school system, second it assumes the school system failed, third if bla bla bla bla....

I was expecting more.... clearly your opinions are bias with all the hidden assumptions made toward the argument. Don't feel bad though, I'm more philosophical than political.

At 11/6/12 08:27 PM, Camarohusky wrote: As has been said in my bad voting thread, an uninformed vote does nothing but cancel out an informed vote.

True, but can an informed vote have a exception?

At 11/7/12 09:40 PM, DaKnOb3 wrote: Only allowing "smart" people to vote means that we would effectively stop being a democracy. There are endless reasons to argue for one group or another not being sufficiently educated or informed to make a good decision, but when you cancel all those people out who are you left with? If one or two percent of the population is voting, how are we any different then an oligarchy or a plutocracy? Why not just find the "smartest" people in a country and have them run a monarchy or aristocracy together?

Oh wait, that didn't work out to well did it? You would get a century or two or enlightened rulers and then a century or two of madness, corruption, and barbarism with mediocrity in the middle. Not such a different result then a democracy, except that most people have no stake in the government. I also remember that a lot of those governments ended with a whole lot of people getting their heads chops off and a number of years out outright anarchy.

I prefer the inefficient and ineffective mess that is democracy. It may not be able to deal with big issues well or quickly, but it also reduces the speed and efficiency or really bad and damaging policies. That gives a population some time and breathing room to change course before it is too late.

.......Okay that covers why everyone should vote despite the mess. Not whatever I should have voted or not. So my question hasn't really been answered...

...You all remind me why I got out of politics. I lost strength to reply to anyone else after this post.

Sometimes it's hard to have faith in people.


My logic has a tendency of getting me getting stuck in the middle.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 15th, 2012 @ 05:27 PM Reply

At 11/15/12 03:56 PM, Tankdown wrote:
Is there someone who's decision I trust on who to vote for?

There is no easy one word answers to understanding meaning and signifiers and how things work. The question you need to ask yourself is can you honestly trust the person and people behind any Presidency to act morally and honestly in your place as your vote represents and delegates your would be responsibility onto your chosen Party ? This is a question that anyone can state there own personal opinion on but ultimately it is you that needs to build your own opinions and then go from there. I suggest IMO exercising "Secular Ethics" in all decisions you make and opinions you formulate :-) Also the short answer to your question is NO.


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 15th, 2012 @ 09:46 PM Reply

Ultimately the knowledge is unobtainable as this conclusion of trusting others is based on lack of wisdom. Disagreeable as self reflection can be, and often is in idiots, as unrealistic as the opinions of others. Respectively everything is connected. So trusting a person as I would any source of news is reliable in some sort of circumstance. At least in a chaotic world where practical logic is the only judgement, essentially in leap of faith, in making a better world.

I can see you value personal opinions despite the sake of others. All I can say is there must be a line. The science is too impractical.

May as well end the discussion there. Any argument is useless based on the vagueness on this "ultimate."


My logic has a tendency of getting me getting stuck in the middle.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 15th, 2012 @ 10:02 PM Reply

At 11/15/12 09:46 PM, Tankdown wrote:

May as well end the discussion there. Any argument is useless based on the vagueness on this "ultimate."

False Dichotomy "Much" as there was No "AS YOU SAY" "vagueness on this "ultimate." ROLMAO !


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 15th, 2012 @ 10:15 PM Reply

At 11/15/12 10:02 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: False Dichotomy "Much" as there was No "AS YOU SAY" "vagueness on this "ultimate." ROLMAO !

Be nice if your argument has more details as into the false relations, or least better writing, than simply calling fallacy.

Maybe then I could rebuttal.


My logic has a tendency of getting me getting stuck in the middle.

leanlifter1
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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 03:46 AM Reply

At 11/15/12 10:15 PM, Tankdown wrote:
At 11/15/12 10:02 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: False Dichotomy "Much" as there was No "AS YOU SAY" "vagueness on this "ultimate." ROLMAO !
Be nice if your argument has more details as into the false relations, or least better writing, than simply calling fallacy.

Maybe then I could rebuttal.

Any argument is useless based on the vagueness on this "ultimate. talk about shitty


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 07:01 AM Reply

At 11/7/12 09:46 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 11/7/12 09:40 PM, DaKnOb3 wrote: Only allowing "smart" people to vote means that we would effectively stop being a democracy.
Let me just stop you right there because the USA was never a Democracy it is officially a Republic.

Again, the term is actually representative democracy. Either way, the general principles of democratic thought are still at work, effectively negating your point. Please take a government or ethics class.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 07:09 AM Reply

At 11/7/12 10:08 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
also the USA is text book Fascist I know it's another hard pill to swallow but once you remove your preconceived ego from you idealism's and nation it all becomes clear.

Wow, dude, your ignorance knows no bounds. If anything, the US is closer to being a social democracy than a fascist state.

If you really want to get into this argument, please, do some studying and please make your argument as to how the US falls into the definition of a fascist state. I'm really interested in hearing where the "revolution" was that led us to becoming fascist state.

leanlifter1
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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 08:09 AM Reply

At 11/16/12 07:09 AM, theburningliberal wrote:
At 11/7/12 10:08 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
also the USA is text book Fascist I know it's another hard pill to swallow but once you remove your preconceived ego from you idealism's and nation it all becomes clear.
Wow, dude, your ignorance knows no bounds. If anything, the US is closer to being a social democracy than a fascist state.

If you really want to get into this argument, please, do some studying and please make your argument as to how the US falls into the definition of a fascist state. I'm really interested in hearing where the "revolution" was that led us to becoming fascist state.

Looks like you haven't read the "13 key signifiers of Fascism." post http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1320231/1


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 01:32 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 08:09 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: Looks like you haven't read the "13 key signifiers of Fascism." post http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1320231/1

Still waiting for your argument. Light does a pretty good job of debunking your "signifiers of fascism," at least in relation to the US. Also, next time you want to try to add a little authority to your argument, try doing it without quoting yourself.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 01:38 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 01:32 PM, theburningliberal wrote:
At 11/16/12 08:09 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: Looks like you haven't read the "13 key signifiers of Fascism." post http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1320231/1
Still waiting for your argument. Light does a pretty good job of debunking your "signifiers of fascism," at least in relation to the US. Also, next time you want to try to add a little authority to your argument, try doing it without quoting yourself.

Wow ok that's solved then USA is not Fascist because you say so ! Most people agree that USA is Fascist and the others that do not ether don't now, don't care or are raging patriot fanatics that work for the Military and other Fascist institutes.


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 01:40 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 07:01 AM, theburningliberal wrote:
Again, the term is actually representative democracy. Either way, the general principles of democratic thought are still at work, effectively negating your point. Please take a government or ethics class.

No it's a Republic !


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 01:46 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 07:09 AM, theburningliberal wrote:
At 11/7/12 10:08 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
also the USA is text book Fascist I know it's another hard pill to swallow but once you remove your preconceived ego from you idealism's and nation it all becomes clear.
Wow, dude, your ignorance knows no bounds. If anything, the US is closer to being a social democracy than a fascist state.

If you really want to get into this argument, please, do some studying and please make your argument as to how the US falls into the definition of a fascist state. I'm really interested in hearing where the "revolution" was that led us to becoming fascist state.

An excellent write up on American Fascism - http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_
fascism.htm


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 02:00 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 01:38 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Wow ok that's solved then USA is not Fascist because you say so ! Most people agree that USA is Fascist and the others that do not ether don't now, don't care or are raging patriot fanatics that work for the Military and other Fascist institutes.

The one who makes the assertion is the one with the burden of proof. I have asked you time and again to make your argument, and you either refuse or are incapable of doing so. Since you have made no attempt to provide any analysis or logical argumentation to prove your claim, your argument is fallacial in that it is based solely on rhetoric and has no substantive analysis to hold it up.

For the record, there is an argument to be made here, but since you are intent on not making it, your argument falls. America is not a fascist state. Robert Paxton (who many agree is the pre-eminent world scholar on how countries turn fascist) defines fascism as such:

Fascism is a system of political authority and social order intended to reinforce the unity, energy, and purity of communities in which liberal democracy stands accused of producing division and decline.

Elsewhere, he refines this further as

a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

Now, the argument can definitely be made that one of our two major political parties represents a slide into fascism. Romney's 47% comments, Bush Jr's ideology of "your with me or against me," the PATRIOT Act, the GOP policy on immigration and foreign nation-building, so on and so forth. But as we saw in 2012, the GOP suffered a resounding defeat while standing on those principles. An electoral landslide for Obama (by the GOP's own definition), a strengthening of Democratic control in the Senate and a popular vote win for the Democrats in the house show that the American people just aren't buying it. They recognize the GOP platform for what it is, and they went the other direction.

Hell, I'll even go so far as to say the only reason the electoral college vote was as close as it was is due to the racist vote in southern states. But given the expansion of key democratic demographics in states like Texas, the racist vote no longer matters as much as it used to, and will soon be irrelevant. Texas is on its way to becoming a battleground state, if not a Democratic leaning state in upcoming presidential elections.

So no, America is not a fascist state. We've seen elements of fascism in the GOP platform, and American voters ran the other way. It's time for you to give up the argument, because you can't win if you don't lay down your cards.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 02:09 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 02:00 PM, theburningliberal wrote:

I especially love this one LOL

There is no refuting USA as Fascist albeit they are benevolently Fascist but non the less a Fascist Republic.

A good non voter


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 02:19 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 01:46 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: An excellent write up on American Fascism - http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_
fascism.htm

Really should read more

In a fascist economy public taxation is used to funnel money to private corporations through the government, whereas in a socialist economy like that of the Soviet Union there is no taxation and industry itself is run by the government for profit.

The quote talks about the differences between socialism and fascism, but it is still important in the discussion that we were having. Fascist governments can often be spotted by the relatively large amounts that are spent by the government with the stated goal of supporting private enterprise when it is unnecessary to do so. The bailouts of the auto and banking industries don't qualify for a variety of reasons, the least of which being that those bailouts were a one-time loan that is currently in repayment. A fascist state would have us doing things like that continually to the tune of a relatively large part of the federal budget. Currently, corporate subsidies make up a relatively small percentage of the American budget, and the party currently in power advocates reducing that percentage even further, if not eliminating it entirely.

So no, we are not a fascist state.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 02:28 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 02:19 PM, theburningliberal wrote:
So no, we are not a fascist state.

LOL you cannot refute facts with BS semantics to try and spin it of as not fascist. There are so many write ups about American Fascism it's not even funny. Here is another good read -

A good non voter


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 02:34 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 02:28 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 11/16/12 02:19 PM, theburningliberal wrote:
So no, we are not a fascist state.
LOL you cannot refute facts with BS semantics to try and spin it of as not fascist. There are so many write ups about American Fascism it's not even funny. Here is another good read -

I already conceded that there is a fascist aspect to certain policy ideas spouted by the GOP. And then I dismissed it when I said that the American voters refused to endorse them.

And... "BS Semantics?" Dude, you really need to learn to comprehend what you are reading. Face it, you've lost this debate. It's time to put the crank down, brush your tooth and seek help. Obamacare will help you.

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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 02:42 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 02:34 PM, theburningliberal wrote:
At 11/16/12 02:28 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 11/16/12 02:19 PM, theburningliberal wrote:
So no, we are not a fascist state.
LOL you cannot refute facts with BS semantics to try and spin it of as not fascist. There are so many write ups about American Fascism it's not even funny. Here is another good read -
I already conceded that there is a fascist aspect to certain policy ideas spouted by the GOP. And then I dismissed it when I said that the American voters refused to endorse them.

And... "BS Semantics?" Dude, you really need to learn to comprehend what you are reading. Face it, you've lost this debate. It's time to put the crank down, brush your tooth and seek help. Obamacare will help you.

Biggest Military in the world with bases in over 130 countries around the world = Text Book Fascist.

#4 The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
#6. Obsession with national security

Also i am going to go with Chris Hedges over your biased indoctrination into American Fascism as the highest level of Faiscm attained is when the masses do not even know it LOL. You are clearly a Patriot and Fascist.


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Response to A good non voter Nov. 16th, 2012 @ 11:06 PM Reply

At 11/16/12 02:42 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:
Biggest Military in the world with bases in over 130 countries around the world = Text Book Fascist.

#4 The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
#6. Obsession with national security

Also i am going to go with Chris Hedges over your biased indoctrination into American Fascism as the highest level of Faiscm attained is when the masses do not even know it LOL. You are clearly a Patriot and Fascist.

Seeing as you are not online, I really don't expect a response to this tonight... It's probably past your bedtime, anyway.

But...

A textbook example of a fascist government is Mussolini's Italy before/during WW2. At no point did the Italians have 130 bases around the world. And many of those bases weren't created solely because we wanted them, they were created to stave off ethnic conflict. What do you think would happen today in the Balkans if the US withdrew its presence there? Many of the issues that led to the events of 1992-95 are still present, they are just suppressed because of US military presence. Europe is not strong enough to handle those kinds of issues as they have shown time and again (That's why the Balkans conflict got so bad, the French Dutch and English(?) sent troops, but didn't allow them to use the weapons they were carrying. As a result, the Serbs overpowered them and forced their surrender. The bloodletting that followed forced the US' hand in 1995).

Military supremacy

This is a de facto result of the Cold War build up... Our military was expanded to such a point to rival a power that was roughly equally as powerful as we were. While the use and function of our military today is different than it was 20 or 30 years ago, it still relies on much of the framework developed to counter the Soviet threat. And even then, the US is slowly scaling back some of its military capabilities, as evidenced by the reduction in Navy ships, the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and the reduction in nuclear capabilities.

Obsession with national security

I don't really think you can say that we are obsessed with national security... There is a healthy level of concern for it, sure, considering no one really wants to have their buildings brought down via hijacked 747's... But to say we are obsessed with it? I don't really think so. National Security wasn't even a major issue in the 2012 election.

Chris Hedges

While politically I do find some agreement with Hedges, his argument about American fascism rests on the reader accepting two major premises, neither of which is coherent now, nor do I think they were coherent when they were published in 2010.

The first is this:

On one side stands a corrupt liberal class, bereft of ideas and unable to respond coherently to the collapse of the global economy, the dismantling of our manufacturing sector and the deadly assault on the ecosystem

For one, in measures of relative corruption, the American liberals really don't suffer from nearly as much as the right-wing GOP. The GOP receives so much money and is so influenced by the religious right and big business, I am surprised they can put forth a national candidate who isn't a Romney-clone. The left, while they have their issues (certainly), are
largely unfettered by the ties to one or two large blocs of social influence.

Secondly, the liberal class that Hedges refers to may be the Democratic Party following LBJ. Clinton was the first Democrat (probably since Kennedy) to have a cogent vision for America and a party platform that Americans could empathize with and vote for, but even then they were unsure about the vision the Democrats offered, largely because the Democrats were unsure of it themselves. But the administration of Bush Jr mobilized Democrats to rally behind a truly coherent vision of American policy, one that voters really do empathize with.

As far as being unable to respond to global economic issues, I think Obama and Congressional Democrats have done a pretty good job of it, except for the obstructionist policies of the GOP. Dodd-Frank is a good example, as is the economic stimulus and bailouts of Wall Street and the auto industry. The Free Trade agreements signed and under consideration currently are also good examples, as is Obama's stance on China.

The second premise is this:

On the other side stands a mass of increasingly bitter people whose alienation, desperation and rage fuel emotionally driven and incoherent political agendas.

Yeah, I got nothing for this, LOL. This is a perfect description of the Republican party following the 2012 elections. On balance, though, the GOP faces a crucial turning point over the next two years. If they continue going the way they are going, they are going to sign their own death warrant as a political party unless they can recast themselves on a national level, similar to what the Democrats did in the 40-odd years between JFK and Obama. So either they will fade into obscurity and never be heard of again, or they will recast themselves and take coherent stances on issues people care about. Either way, they will not fit the description Hedges puts forward.

It's also worth nothing here that Hedges never says we are at a point where fascism currently exists in America. He does argue (based on his premises) that we currently have a recipe for fascism, but he never coherently argues or proves that we are there yet.