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I'm torn on abortion. Help me

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T3XT
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I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 00:56:38 Reply

Before anything is brought up, let me say this: Try not to let your gender bias your opinion.

Men are more likely to be against it since they aren't capable of delivering a kicking, fussing, fully-developed baby through a tiny vagina that stretches and tears with great pain over the course of multiple hours. On that note, I can fully understand why a woman would want to abort a baby before it becomes too much of a problem. However, on the other hand, I'm not denying that the baby is a life nonetheless.

So I ask you: What are the pros/cons on each side of abortion? I really can't make up my mind; I FEEL for undeserving women (e.g. rape victims) who would have to experience great pain for a child they likely don't even care about. But when I THINK about it, well...It's killing a baby!

I'm torn. Here's a link for those who don't fully understand how an abortion works (suffice to say, it can be almost painless).

What's bad/good about abortion Newgrounds?

leanlifter1
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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 01:19:08 Reply

Who cares about abortion. Keep your eye on the ball and not on trivial issues such as "abortion" thanx :-)


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 01:30:29 Reply

What it all boils down to is disagreement on where life begins. People waste their time clouding the whole argument with religion and attacks that they begin to lose the fundamental disagreement. Generally Pro-Choice people think it's in the last trimester of pregnancy, whereas pro-Lifers tend to think it's at conception (but that's probably a bit too big of a generalization). If you believe it's at conception then this makes Birth Control in general abortion, which is where you get all those random accusations like Ann Coulter having an abortion.

At 10/29/12 01:19 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: Who cares about abortion. Keep your eye on the ball and not on trivial issues such as "abortion" thanx :-)

You know issues like the government taxing people, or the government having an army and the government using it. You know important non-trivial issues.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream. " - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 01:31:38 Reply

1. Consider how many people are born and wish they weren't. You can't just assume every unborn child wants to survive, especially when they only exist in the first place because a) of a violent crime b) two teenagers were horny and stupid. Plus, once the baby is born, if the mother has no way of supporting that child, it's probably going to grow up in poverty or at the very least with a really fucked up childhood.

2. The value of human life (or life in general) is in itself a topic of debate. Saying that killing is wrong is an opinion, not a fact. Ending the life of something that hasn't even invested any time or energy in its life isn't a big deal. What does the baby lose out of it? Not a whole lot, really. If you were building a house of cards, would you rather it collapsed when you just started building it, or once it was several stories high? Most people would prefer the former.

3. Laws aren't going to change the fact that abortion happens and it's going to continue to happen. Outlawing it will only result in abortions being done in secret or at home, and that's dangerous for the woman in question. If the unborn child is going to die either way, you might as well try and make it easier for the girl.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 01:36:26 Reply

At 10/29/12 01:30 AM, Warforger wrote:
You know issues like the government taxing people, or the government having an army and the government using it. You know important non-trivial issues.

Ya I am much much much more worried about the fact of why there will be no pension for me when I am 65 etc. The media wants peoples attention on completely ridiculous, benign & opinionated issues like Obama's birth certificate and "abortion" while the corporate industrialists rape away our futures and rob us blind.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 01:56:49 Reply

At 10/29/12 01:39 AM, RightWingGamer wrote: Hi, T3XT. I see you've met the village idiot...

OT, I am strongly against abortion for almost every reason. The very idea of killing a baby just for the sake of convenience is flat-out sickening.

Keep drinking the koolaid moron! it suites you sheep.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 02:00:37 Reply

At 10/29/12 01:50 AM, Profanity wrote:
At 10/29/12 01:39 AM, RightWingGamer wrote: I am strongly against abortion for almost every reason.
And that choice never to abort any of your pregnancies is yours to make for yourself. It is never your right to impose that choice on others.

Exactly.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 04:37:34 Reply

At 10/29/12 12:56 AM, T3XT wrote: Before anything is brought up, let me say this: Try not to let your gender bias your opinion.

Men are more likely to be against it since they aren't capable of delivering a kicking, fussing, fully-developed baby through a tiny vagina that stretches and tears with great pain over the course of multiple hours. On that note, I can fully understand why a woman would want to abort a baby before it becomes too much of a problem. However, on the other hand, I'm not denying that the baby is a life nonetheless.

So I ask you: What are the pros/cons on each side of abortion? I really can't make up my mind; I FEEL for undeserving women (e.g. rape victims) who would have to experience great pain for a child they likely don't even care about. But when I THINK about it, well...It's killing a baby!

I'm torn. Here's a link for those who don't fully understand how an abortion works (suffice to say, it can be almost painless).

What's bad/good about abortion Newgrounds?

For good or for ill, abortion is meant to be legal, for if ever illegalized by federal law, that alone will mean that people aren't doing what there suppose to be doing witch in turn serves as a violation to the Wall of Separation between State and Religion itself, this in turn will lead to serious inner corruption if ever allowed to happen.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 07:54:44 Reply

At 10/29/12 04:37 AM, Thecrazyman wrote:
At 10/29/12 12:56 AM, T3XT wrote:
For good or for ill, abortion is meant to be legal, for if ever illegalized by federal law, that alone will mean that people aren't doing what there suppose to be doing witch in turn serves as a violation to the Wall of Separation between State and Religion itself, this in turn will lead to serious inner corruption if ever allowed to happen.

State and Religion you say LOL or you mean that Astrothelogical allegorical misrepresentation they use for mass control of the lost sheep.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 10:29:19 Reply

Imagine this, you get a girl you don't like pregnant. What do? Seriously though, early fetuses are nothing but a collection of cells. They cannot function on their own and in the earlier parts of pregnancy they have no thoughts or sense of self.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 12:07:51 Reply

At 10/29/12 12:56 AM, T3XT wrote: Before anything is brought up, let me say this: Try not to let your gender bias your opinion.

;;;
O.P. I can't simply toss out the fact I am male , it is what I am & therefore it can probably be said to bias my opinion.
1st, let me say NO MAN should have any say over whether a woman has an abortion or not, that is her body & her choice.
2ndly, to go further no man should be able, by inacting laws or by force, keep a woman who decides she wants to abort a fetus from having access to a safe place to do so.
3rd no religious believer should ever be allowed to impose their beliefs on others, I got no problem with them having their insane beliefs .I have no problem with them imposing restrictions on themselves because they have these beliefs...THEY JUST CANNOT INFLICT THEM ON ANYONE WHO DOESN'T .

But when I THINK about it, well...It's killing a baby!

no it isn't O.P there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE a baby is alive ,breathing & no longer needs a host body to survive. What is aborted has the potential to be a baby, but even without an abortion it still may not survive.

A collection of cells , is not a baby ....in attempting to say a collection of living cells has rights, could mean that a collection of cancer cells being also alive , should not be destroyed !!!
Kinda stupid when you look at it that way.
Plus not every fetus that is wanted survives, spontaneous abortion & miscarriages happen all the time ....should that be murder now ?
Will it come to
" You should have stayed in bed in a hospital as soon as you became aware you were pregnant .....to protect the baby ! ! ! !"

I don't think so .


Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 16:56:43 Reply

At 10/29/12 12:56 AM, T3XT wrote:
What's bad/good about abortion Newgrounds?

Well there's really nothing "good" about abortion and there's nothing good about a woman being in a situation where she needs to choose between abortion and childbirth. Whether an unintentionally pregnant woman chooses to abort a fetus or give her child up for adoption, she'll be judged by most of society as a slut. What most people and unfortunately most women forget is that an abortion is a last resort birth control procedure. If all other forms of birth control were taken prior, pregnancy would surely have been avoided.

Instead of dividing abortion into "good" and "bad" segments, I'll divide the things typically associated with being pro-life or pro-choice.

Pro-life:
-Generally, the entire principal of being pro-life is based on ethics, religion, and what a person decides what a child is defined as.
-For an individual to label abortion as murder, he/she has to argue that a single-cell embryo is a whole human being. Some pro-life advocates go as far to say that haploid eggs and sperm are considered humans or children. Therefore, any destruction of an embryo or an undeveloped fetus is murder, since these things would theoretically be classified as children. For obvious reasons, pro-life advocates do not back up this belief with scientific reasoning, but with religious reasoning.
-In order to consider yourself as pro-life, you have to vigorously defend the idea that an embryo is a child and destroying it in any fashion is murder. That means no matter the circumstances of abortion, you must believe it is murder and therefore should be illegal.

Pro-choice
-First off, to consider yourself as pro-choice, you need to know what is considered by science as an individual human being.
-An individual human being should be capable of sustaining his/herself outside of the womb (with the exclusion of feeding his/herself).
-A human being's cells should all be fully differentiated or fully developed into their separate functions. Also continuing along the subject of differentiation, a developing embryo goes through multiple developmental checkpoints to ensure that it is viable. If the developing embryo fails anyone of these biological "checkpoints" it will effectively self-terminate in what we call "spontaneous abortion" This self-evaluation process is embedded within our genes along with all other internally fertilizing organisms in order to prevent the development of mutated and unviable offspring.
-So what does spontaneous abortion have to do with our medical procedural variant? Well both involve early termination of development of a fetus. In one case, the body naturally determines the fetus as genetically or physically unviable and terminates the potential offspring, which we label as a miscarriage. On the other hand, the decision to medically abort a fetus labels the developing fetus as unviable for many throughly discussed personal reasons.
-So by this point a pro-life individual argues for and stands by what science classifies as an individual human being and is capable of discerning between human being and life in a broad sense.
-Now that all of the science is out of the way, we can now dive into the ethics or choice portion of being pro-choice.
-No man has the power to force a woman what or what not to do with her body. A first amendment right, pretty simple.

So you can see why the majority of ignorant men and women tend to sway towards being pro-life. They find actual human development boring or too complicated (and it is very complicated) and find that believing what their pastor says to be much easier.

All we can do in the science community is keep researching and teaching until the majority of our population has a vague understanding of human development. We are already shifting into this direction and soon the notion of "pro-life" will only be held by a few ignorant religious extremists in the south, much like the kkk today.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 17:19:14 Reply

At 10/29/12 04:56 PM, Saen wrote:
-So by this point a pro-life individual argues for and stands by what science classifies as an individual human being and is.

Ahaha that would be something! Whoops! "...a pro-choice individual argues..."

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 17:19:38 Reply

At 10/29/12 04:56 PM, Saen wrote:
Pro-choice
what is considered by science as an individual human being.

Science doesn't really have authority on this matter.

It's a bad way to go about it to argue for or against abortion. What do we want our society to be like? What happens to a society where abortion is illegal?
Those are more important questions than "when is a foetus self-sustaining". I've always thought that to be a red herring because people just want an easy way out.

At the end of the day you have to come to terms with the fact that you are terminating a possible life. You are changing the course of events in a way that makes a likely life go away and this becomes more and more true the further into the process you go. I feel that most people want to avoid the moral and ethical implications of that because they understand the upsides of abortions are immense. It's much easier to live with yourself if you become convinced that you didn't ACTUALLY get rid of a human, because science said so!

I've also always found it interesting that eugenics are perceived as really terrible by the same people who have no problems with abortions.
Same as the death sentence being really well supported by the people who are against abortion.

I like the rationale that it's wrong to select traits in babies but it's ok to just get rid of them if it's too inconvenient for the parents. Haha. Idiots. Of course sperm banks don't give a fuck about this nonsense and they do practice a form of genetic selection since the people who go there for sperm have high standards anyway. No one's complaining about THAT even though it is a soft form of eugenics.

If I said I want to get rid of my baby "just because" I am viewed as less bad than if I say "he's going to be mentally retarded" or whatever else. Think about that for a while today.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 18:10:44 Reply

At 10/29/12 05:19 PM, poxpower wrote:
Science doesn't really have authority on this matter.

You're right. When two people argue over the ethics of abortion, they tend to either focus on fetus pictures or hypothetical rape scenarios rather than human development.

It's a bad way to go about it to argue for or against abortion. What do we want our society to be like? What happens to a society where abortion is illegal?

Currently society in the U.S. wants women to have the choice themselves. If abortion is illegal, it will still be practiced, but those criminal women that are caught will finally be locked in prison for murder as that is suitable punishment!

Those are more important questions than "when is a foetus self-sustaining". I've always thought that to be a red herring because people just want an easy way out.

An easy way out of what, feeling bad? It's not a red herring at all. The science behind human development explains why legalized abortions or other methods of birth control are not murder.

At the end of the day you have to come to terms with the fact that you are terminating a possible life. You are changing the course of events in a way that makes a likely life go away and this becomes more and more true the further into the process you go. I feel that most people want to avoid the moral and ethical implications of that because they understand the upsides of abortions are immense. It's much easier to live with yourself if you become convinced that you didn't ACTUALLY get rid of a human, because science said so!

Every time you ejaculate and don't culture your sperm you terminate a potential life. Every time a woman has her period she terminates a potential life. Every time a woman has a miscarriage her body has terminated a potential life. That's all bullshit, somewhere you and other pro-life advocates have created another idea of what potential life is and what an actual human is!

I've also always found it interesting that eugenics are perceived as really terrible by the same people who have no problems with abortions.

These types of people argue in favor for pro-choice principals primarily on ethics and hypothetical scenarios, not biology.


I like the rationale that it's wrong to select traits in babies but it's ok to just get rid of them if it's too inconvenient for the parents. Haha. Idiots. Of course sperm banks don't give a fuck about this nonsense and they do practice a form of genetic selection since the people who go there for sperm have high standards anyway. No one's complaining about THAT even though it is a soft form of eugenics.

Parents get rid of a baby when they give a child up for adoption, they don't get rid of a baby through an abortion procedure.

We are already biologically driven to select for traits for our offspring. We have natural instincts to mate and produce offspring with healthy individuals along with additional factors such as intelligence or physical strength. We have individual preference in mates for hair color, eye color, skin color, etc. these are all methods of selection.

If I said I want to get rid of my baby "just because" I am viewed as less bad than if I say "he's going to be mentally retarded" or whatever else. Think about that for a while today.

So are you talking about getting rid of a baby by means of adoption or what?

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 18:38:31 Reply

At 10/29/12 06:10 PM, Saen wrote:
An easy way out of what, feeling bad?

Yes. There is no answer to the question "What is a human?". A human is a made-up category of things, like a "plane" or a "boat" or a "species". It doesn't actually describe something as precise as people think, like a cube, an electron or a circle.

There's some things we all agree are humans and some things we all agree aren't and fetuses fall into a gray area. It's dishonest to pretend science has solved this so therefore it makes the decision easy.

Every time you ejaculate and don't culture your sperm you terminate a potential life. Every time a woman has her period she terminates a potential life. Every time a woman has a miscarriage her body has terminated a potential life. That's all bullshit, somewhere you and other pro-life advocates have created another idea of what potential life is and what an actual human is!

Haha I'm not pro-life. I'm way more pro-choice than any sane human would be.
But all those things are true. When I jerk off, that's all potential people. The reason no one feels bad about it is that it's really far away from being a baby and it's also insanely impractical to save them all.

A female egg is a step closer to being a baby. A fetus is another step. A 10 week fetus is another etc.

Trying to circumvent the moral and ethical implications of it by saying science has given us a simple answer is just dishonest. It's also a red herring to try and center this debate around biology ( in most cases ). It can't solve it because, again, a human is a made-up thing. I'm sure you can think of many cases where you'd struggle to classify someone or something as human or not. If not then.. well think harder haha


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 19:39:00 Reply

At 10/29/12 06:38 PM, poxpower wrote:
Yes. There is no answer to the question "What is a human?". A human is a made-up category of things, like a "plane" or a "boat" or a "species". It doesn't actually describe something as precise as people think, like a cube, an electron or a circle.

What in the world? What else else other than homo sapien comes to mind when I use the word "human" as a noun?

There's some things we all agree are humans and some things we all agree aren't and fetuses fall into a gray area. It's dishonest to pretend science has solved this so therefore it makes the decision easy.

Solved what issue? What is scientifically classified as a fetus and what is classified as a baby? You don't even need to resort to science to solve this "issue" definition suffices.


Haha I'm not pro-life. I'm way more pro-choice than any sane human would be.
But all those things are true. When I jerk off, that's all potential people. The reason no one feels bad about it is that it's really far away from being a baby and it's also insanely impractical to save them all.

A sane human is politically pro-choice! An insane person intentionally ignores the biological process of human development in favor of his/her's pastor's sermons!


A female egg is a step closer to being a baby. A fetus is another step. A 10 week fetus is another etc.

So your hypothetical logic explains that because a sperm/egg is farther away from eventually becoming a child than a fetus, it is more acceptable to expend its life? By that logic I can argue that a developing fetus is much closer to a miscarriage than an individual sperm or egg, and therefore closer to murder/manslaughter.

Trying to circumvent the moral and ethical implications of it by saying science has given us a simple answer is just dishonest. It's also a red herring to try and center this debate around biology ( in most cases ). It can't solve it because, again, a human is a made-up thing. I'm sure you can think of many cases where you'd struggle to classify someone or something as human or not. If not then.. well think harder haha

People ignorant of the biology will constantly argue why its ethical to terminate development at this stage and unethical to terminate it at another. In fact, they're just arguing over a mass of undifferentiated tissue than can self-terminate throughout most stages of development. Do we condem women who have miscarriages? Absolutely not, most of us comfort the individual during a tragic time of her life. We should express the same kind of care and sympathy to a woman who just terminated her pregnancy or decided to give her child up for adoption. Judging, spitting on, or even condemning these poor women for murder is unthinkable and what is truly inhumane in this debate!

A human sperm and a human egg fuse to form a human embryo. A human embryo divides and grows and cells differentiate to form various embryonic tissues, these tissues together compose a human fetus, and a human fetus continues to grow and differentiate to a point at which it is expelled from the mother and can live within the biotic and abiotic factors of its environment. At this state it is categorized as a human offspring or a baby. Really simple stuff.

I'm not avoiding the ethical issues of this debate. It is morally and legally unacceptable for a man, a politician, or a pastor to have jurisdiction over a woman's body in any circumstance!

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 20:06:39 Reply

At 10/29/12 07:39 PM, Saen wrote:
So your hypothetical logic explains that because a sperm/egg is farther away from eventually becoming a child than a fetus, it is more acceptable to expend its life? By that logic I can argue that a developing fetus is much closer to a miscarriage than an individual sperm or egg, and therefore closer to murder/manslaughter.

A miscarriage isn't a choice but yes abortion is closer to murder every day that a fetus grows inside a body.
It's not binary. A fetus doesn't become a human from one day to the next in reality, but we have to pick a point for legal purposes.

We do the same for voting. Being 18 doesn't make you an adult. It's meaningless. You can choose a dozen different criteria for when you'd say someone is an adult. Even if that criteria is biologically verifiable, you understand that the word "adult" is an entirely made up concept.

At this state it is categorized as a human offspring or a baby. Really simple stuff.

Simple, but arbitrary.

I'm not avoiding the ethical issues of this debate. It is morally and legally unacceptable for a man, a politician, or a pastor to have jurisdiction over a woman's body in any circumstance!

Well you've just decided that, you do realize this isn't actually a deeper thruth of the universe, right? You have made your moral judgment about this.

A moral judgment that is also dependent on legal definitions. For instance, you'd probably define a woman as an adult, correct? So the state / parents would have rights over a 17 year old. Would it become morally unacceptable from one day to the next if we decided that people are legally adult at 17?

You could decide all day long that "adulthood" is defined by any number of objectively verifiable criteria like sexual maturity, butthole hair, driver's license, IQ scores, education or financial independance but you'd never actually circumvent the fact that being an "adult" is still a made-up thing. We chose "18 years old". It's obviously flawed and arbitrary however it's easily verifiable.
Same with fetuses. Some people have chosen when to call it a human and when to not call it one. But it's meaningless really. Trying to solve that issue that way just goes nowhere. Or it should but people are too fucking stupid to even question this, not that it helps break the standstill anyway since pro-life people are typically nothing more than morlocks.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 20:52:38 Reply

At 10/29/12 08:06 PM, poxpower wrote:
A miscarriage isn't a choice but yes abortion is closer to murder every day that a fetus grows inside a body.
It's not binary. A fetus doesn't become a human from one day to the next in reality, but we have to pick a point for legal purposes.

These time periods are not legally defined as days, but as stages of development within the womb. Genetically, a human fetus is a human fetus. It doesn't change from one species into another, however human development shares many processes with other species.

We do the same for voting. Being 18 doesn't make you an adult. It's meaningless. You can choose a dozen different criteria for when you'd say someone is an adult. Even if that criteria is biologically verifiable, you understand that the word "adult" is an entirely made up concept.

Well you've just decided that, you do realize this isn't actually a deeper thruth of the universe, right? You have made your moral judgment about this.

A moral judgment that is also dependent on legal definitions. For instance, you'd probably define a woman as an adult, correct? So the state / parents would have rights over a 17 year old. Would it become morally unacceptable from one day to the next if we decided that people are legally adult at 17?

You could decide all day long that "adulthood" is defined by any number of objectively verifiable criteria like sexual maturity, butthole hair, driver's license, IQ scores, education or financial independance but you'd never actually circumvent the fact that being an "adult" is still a made-up thing. We chose "18 years old". It's obviously flawed and arbitrary however it's easily verifiable.
Same with fetuses. Some people have chosen when to call it a human and when to not call it one. But it's meaningless really. Trying to solve that issue that way just goes nowhere. Or it should but people are too fucking stupid to even question this, not that it helps break the standstill anyway since pro-life people are typically nothing more than morlocks.

All of this assumes that the ethical portion of my argument is based on adulthood of a female, which is an incorrect assumption. It is simply on gender having legal jurisdiction over the other, a political figure having authority over a woman's womb, or a religious institution subduing the rights of women (girls, ladies, cootie caverns) of any age is legally and morally unacceptable.

The flaw within most pro-choice advocates arguments is not sticking to what is defined as a baby and as a developing embryo, simply because they just don't know the biology. They typically resort to arbitrary concepts, loose definitions, hypothetical scenarios, philosophy, you're pretty familiar with doing most of these things. While on the other hand pro-life advocates are very effective at sticking with one idea, abortion is murder, and they use that idea along with religion to back up most of their arguments.

A pro-life advocate shoves a picture of an "unborn baby" in your face that says "in x-amount of days this baby has a heart and fingers". You simply present them with a picture of a cat, dog, rat, fox, or any other mammal along with the picture of human embryo at the same stage of development. Remove the labeling from the pictures, mix them up and tell the pro-life advocate to point out the human embryo. He/she will not be able to distinguish between the pictures and most are taken back by the thought.

Don't get me wrong, ethical matters are crucial in abortion debates. However these ethical matters should specifically pertain to women's rights and legal status.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 21:04:35 Reply

At 10/29/12 08:52 PM, Saen wrote: is legally and morally unacceptable.

Well morally unacceptable ... to you...

The flaw within most pro-choice advocates arguments is not sticking to what is defined as a baby and as a developing embryo, simply because they just don't know the biology.

I'm just saying that even if you knew everything about biology, it wouldn't really make the decision for you. It only makes it if you decide for some reason that it's ok to abort a "non-human" but it's not ok to abort a "human", which is still basically an opinion...

Personally I think it's a stupid way to frame the debate but it keeps people in a comfortable zone far away from the eugenics slippery slope.

Why do we abort people? The reality is to have a better society. An easier life. Better conditions for adults and kids. If you start admitting THAT as the justification, then why really stop at any point?
Honestly why the hell would I keep a fucked up baby alive once it's born? I don't want it. No one wants it. You're just creating a life of pure misery and dependance. Our resources are better spent elsewhere.

But that's something people are really uncomfortable with right now.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 22:01:46 Reply

At 10/29/12 09:04 PM, poxpower wrote:
Well morally unacceptable ... to you...

And to the majority of the U.S. voting population.


I'm just saying that even if you knew everything about biology, it wouldn't really make the decision for you. It only makes it if you decide for some reason that it's ok to abort a "non-human" but it's not ok to abort a "human", which is still basically an opinion...

At no point does a developing fetus transform from a "non-human" state to a human state, the genome doesn't change from pig to human or some other form of ridiculousness. A person doesn't have to know much at all about biology. He/she just needs to know what a cell is, tissues are, and an organism is. A fetus is a mass of developing tissues, not an organism.

Personally I think it's a stupid way to frame the debate but it keeps people in a comfortable zone far away from the eugenics slippery slope.

Using science as the basis of a debate is a stupid way to frame a debate on abortion, stem cells, or eugenics which are scientific and medical topics/procedures? Oh boy.

Why do we abort people? The reality is to have a better society. An easier life. Better conditions for adults and kids. If you start admitting THAT as the justification, then why really stop at any point?

We don't abort people, we are men. Women don't abort people, they terminate pregnancies, why women choose to abort is frankly none of our business.

Honestly why the hell would I keep a fucked up baby alive once it's born? I don't want it. No one wants it. You're just creating a life of pure misery and dependance. Our resources are better spent elsewhere.

But that's something people are really uncomfortable with right now.

You're a man, thank God you don't get to make that choice.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 23:11:57 Reply

At 10/29/12 10:01 PM, Saen wrote:
At no point does a developing fetus transform from a "non-human" state to a human state

Well no, obviously, that's what I'm saying...
We only decide that it turns into a human at some point for legal / moral / ethical purposes.

We don't abort people, we are men. Women don't abort people, they terminate pregnancies, why women choose to abort is frankly none of our business.

Are you then saying that a woman can terminate a pregnancy up to the point the baby is born?

You're a man, thank God you don't get to make that choice.

Well I do, in a sense, since I live in a democracy and can vote. If that issue ever gets on the table, then I do get some choice.
The only thing that prevents this from happening is a stack of paper.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 23:38:50 Reply

At 10/29/12 12:56 AM, T3XT wrote: Before anything is brought up, let me say this: Try not to let your gender bias your opinion.

What's bad/good about abortion Newgrounds?

People make mistakes, No reason to condemn them to a life of poverty over it. Which are the majority of reasons why women get abortions.

Having legal abortions means it's there for you when you do need it. This women wasn't able to get an abortion because all the doctors in her nation wouldn't perform it. And now she lost much of her vision as a result. Fetuses can die in the womb, why put make a women suffer going through labor for a dead or severely deformed baby? With all the complications that can happen with getting pregnant, giving birth, and raising a child, I'd think that most women would like all options on the table.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 23:38:53 Reply

At 10/29/12 11:11 PM, poxpower wrote:

Well no, obviously, that's what I'm saying...
We only decide that it turns into a human at some point for legal / moral / ethical purposes.

Turns into a human? By that do you mean a human fetus developing into an infant? More accurate, but still quite primitive terminology would be "a developing fetus turning into a child".

We don't abort people, we are men. Women don't abort people, they terminate pregnancies, why women choose to abort is frankly none of our business.
Are you then saying that a woman can terminate a pregnancy up to the point the baby is born?

No. When a woman is ready to give birth, generally her child has become a fully differentiated organism, a baby. No doubt, when the fetus has fully developed into a baby, that baby will not be shy about letting his/her mom know that he/she is ready to be pushed out. All growth within a baby following childbirth is somatic, cells do not further differentiate into tissues. Therefor it is appropriate to classify this near-birth stage of development as infant growth, which coincides with our current laws concerning which trimesters are legal to terminate pregnancy within.

You're a man, thank God you don't get to make that choice.
Well I do, in a sense, since I live in a democracy and can vote. If that issue ever gets on the table, then I do get some choice.
The only thing that prevents this from happening is a stack of paper.

Nope, if any contradiction is to be made against Roe vs. Wade it will be made out in the supreme court once again. You can vote for a president who may or may not appoint a supreme court justice who may or may not rule in favor of pro-life case, whose vote may or may not be sufficient to overturn the previous Roe vs. Wade case.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-29 23:53:15 Reply

At 10/29/12 11:38 PM, Saen wrote:
No. When a woman is ready to give birth, generally her child has become a fully differentiated organism, a baby.

But you are aware that right now you can't abort after X time ( depending on states / countries ) even if it's legal? I mean, why isn't it the woman's choice up to the point where the baby is born?

Why is it ok to do it in the first, but not the second trimester? Or ok to do it in the second, but not the third?

Does this make you more aware of how actually arbitrary abortion laws are, even if they allow for it and even if they are based on biological factors?

So again I reiterate: It's pointless to pretend science can solve this as far as embryological development goes. It can't. We're still the ones who decide when it's TOO human to terminate.

Nope, if any contradiction is to be made against Roe vs. Wade it will be made out in the supreme court once again. You can vote for a president who may or may not appoint a supreme court justice who may or may not rule in favor of pro-life case, whose vote may or may not be sufficient to overturn the previous Roe vs. Wade case.

Oh ok I see, voting doesn't result in changes. Lol


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-30 00:30:33 Reply

At 10/29/12 11:53 PM, poxpower wrote:
At 10/29/12 11:38 PM, Saen wrote:
No. When a woman is ready to give birth, generally her child has become a fully differentiated organism, a baby.
But you are aware that right now you can't abort after X time ( depending on states / countries ) even if it's legal? I mean, why isn't it the woman's choice up to the point where the baby is born?

By the time a baby is ready to be born an abortion procedure would not be possible or sufficient to terminate a pregnancy. A doctor would have to pull this baby out through a c-section or induced birth and physically kill it, which is a appropriately labeled as murder. I'm sorry but that's the most fucking retarded question I've heard concerning abortion. I've worked for Planned Parenthood and had to sift through tons of bullshit, but this takes the cake!

Why is it ok to do it in the first, but not the second trimester? Or ok to do it in the second, but not the third?

It depends on which states the Christian Coalition has the opportunity to rape.

Does this make you more aware of how actually arbitrary abortion laws are, even if they allow for it and even if they are based on biological factors?

The laws are not arbitrary, these laws impact the lives of women throughout our country. The science of human embryonic development is not arbitrary, it literally defines all of our stages of life.

So again I reiterate: It's pointless to pretend science can solve this as far as embryological development goes. It can't. We're still the ones who decide when it's TOO human to terminate.

Science delivers the facts, science has answered our question of what is life and how we are made, and science can sure is hell answer what we classify as collective tissues and what we classify as a developed organism. People choose whether or not to believe the facts and the research.

Nope, if any contradiction is to be made against Roe vs. Wade it will be made out in the supreme court once again. You can vote for a president who may or may not appoint a supreme court justice who may or may not rule in favor of pro-life case, whose vote may or may not be sufficient to overturn the previous Roe vs. Wade case.
Oh ok I see, voting doesn't result in changes. Lol

Ok.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-30 01:32:39 Reply

At 10/30/12 12:30 AM, Saen wrote:
It depends on which states the Christian Coalition has the opportunity to rape.

Well how exactly are you not robbing the woman's right to terminate a pregnancy at month 8 then?
Why are they morally inferior to you basically just because you have arbitrarily decided that legally, it's murder at month 8 and therefore women can't do it?

You do realize this is the exact same argument they are using, right? The only difference is that you choose a different point in time which is honestly just as random.

That is why, again, you can't just base this on biology. It's never going to work.

Science delivers the facts, science has answered our question of what is life and how we are made, and science can sure is hell answer what we classify as collective tissues and what we classify as a developed organism. People choose whether or not to believe the facts and the research.

Actually science hasn't answered what life is haha.

For the.. like 20th time, the only thing science will help you with is tell you when X thing happens to your fetus if you have already decided at what point you consider it a person and at what point you consider it medical waste.

If you have decided that a fetus is a person when the eyes form, science will tell you at what week that is ( depending on what you consider to be an eye haha. Same problem ). But it will never tell you if a fetus is a person or not.

You have to decide that. Yah.


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-30 01:33:21 Reply

At 10/30/12 01:20 AM, RightWingGamer wrote:
At 10/30/12 01:04 AM, Profanity wrote:
Congratulations. You just said the single stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.

That's "a quantity of two is greater than a quantity of thirteen trillion"
Twice.

BWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA !


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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-30 02:15:32 Reply

At 10/30/12 01:32 AM, poxpower wrote:
Well how exactly are you not robbing the woman's right to terminate a pregnancy at month 8 then?
Why are they morally inferior to you basically just because you have arbitrarily decided that legally, it's murder at month 8 and therefore women can't do it?

You keep asking questions I have already answered and digging up assumptions from statements I just have not made. Biologically, it is not the amount of specific, days, weeks or months that distinguishes a fully developed fetus or at this stage appropriately labeled as a baby or a mass of tissues and cells that are still differentiating into a functional organism. These stages of development are typically categorized by an average amount of days or months that make up that stage. However, the speed of development varies between all mothers, and that's why biologically scientists refer to these time intervals as stages, not x amount of days.

So is abortion murder at the eighth month? Yes, however only if it is even possible to preform an abortion at this stage of development. Seeing as this is the same ridiculous question you just asked me, this reveals to me that you are in really no position to hypothetically argue against or even discuss human embryonic development.

You do realize this is the exact same argument they are using, right? The only difference is that you choose a different point in time which is honestly just as random.

Yes, I'm quite familiar and experience with educating pro-life advocates. They protested outside of our Planned Parenthood office every Saturday evening. I've conducted sexual education groups within Baptist churches. Half my relatives are rednecks, I live in the deep south. It doesn't get any more pro-life here.

That is why, again, you can't just base this on biology. It's never going to work.

Actually science hasn't answered what life is haha.

What? You haven't been taught "Cell Theory"? DNA and RNA, nucleic acids, amino acids are all things unique to life and define it.

For the.. like 20th time, the only thing science will help you with is tell you when X thing happens to your fetus if you have already decided at what point you consider it a person and at what point you consider it medical waste.
If you have decided that a fetus is a person when the eyes form, science will tell you at what week that is ( depending on what you consider to be an eye haha. Same problem ). But it will never tell you if a fetus is a person or not.
You have to decide that. Yah.

Correction, pro-life individuals individually determine when they think a baby is made. Some think a baby is made when there's a heart beat, or when a egg and a sperm fuse and form a zygote, or even when a sperm has been made! Science has already determined when a baby has been created during human development. After all cell differentiation is complete and all organs have been formed which make up a functional organism. That's about the fifth time I've typed that out for you.

It's really the pro-life individuals that get to choose when they think a baby has developed inside a pregnant mother. Maybe the term "pro-free choice of what to call life" is more suitable for these people.

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Response to I'm torn on abortion. Help me 2012-10-30 03:13:01 Reply

At 10/30/12 02:15 AM, Saen wrote:
What? You haven't been taught "Cell Theory"? DNA and RNA, nucleic acids, amino acids are all things unique to life and define it.

Then pray tell, when does something stop being an inanimate chemical and becomes alive?


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