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Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama

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leanlifter1
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 11:46:33 Reply

At 10/11/12 11:42 AM, CaveStoryGrounds wrote:
"What matters are the polices"

Funny how you never hear anyone speak of Ethics in politics only arbitrary "policy" that voters have absolutely no control over for 4 years.


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TheMason
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 12:05:06 Reply

At 10/8/12 08:09 PM, Feoric wrote: It's also weird that you would be in support of Obama if he was a neoliberal (which he ostensibly is), as if this is somehow a good thing that didn't bring the global economy to it's knees, no siree.

First of all, it wasn't neoliberalism that brought the global economy to its knees. It was basically a Clinton-era policy that led to the subprime fueled housing bubble that burst with a rumor about Bear-Sterns.

Secondly, Obama gets a lot of credit for 'saving us from a second Great Depression'. Unfortunately for him; this is a lie. When the meltdown happened the financial system came within hours of total collapse. It was Bush officials...SecTreas Paulson and Chairman Bernanke...who crafted the response that stabilized the financial sector. In the beginning congressional leaders from both Houses and Parties were consulted...but they were pretty much told that they did not have time to tinker with or debate the response and that there was no time for partisan wrangling. Furthermore:

* This was a financial recession...fundamentally different from supply/demand recessions. As such Obama's performance as president has been sub-par.

* Gains in the economy for the middle and working class has been very poor...in fact Wall Street is doing better under Obama than Main Street. More people are on food stamps now. Low wage jobs have replaced higher paying jobs. Furthermore, despite the hooplah over the 7.8% unemployment rate...job growth...has been pretty flat. Especially when you look at the U6 unemployment rate. People have given up looking for jobs.

* Blaming Bush policies for the bad economy are falsehoods. See my above point that the situation was stabilized by Bush officials. Furthermore, refer to the graph from Investor's Business Daily: Under bush the deficit as % of GDP declined. We had full employment until 2007 (after the Dems took over Congress). 8 million jobs were added between 2003 and 2007. Also, the recession ended before Obama's policies could take effect. The recession ended due to Bush's response (TARP) not Obama's stimulus. Finally, wages have decreased under Obama.

* Rather than Neoliberal in nature; I think Obama operates under an ideological crony-capitalism model. He is severely regulated traditional, cheap energy providers (oil and coal) making it less profitable to be in those businesses. The result is increased prices at the pump and the light switch. On the other hand he squanders stimulus funding on green energy start-ups that put money into his campaign coffers.

In the end, I want to say I'm not blindly defending Bush here. I'm a structuralist, I think these things would've happened even under a Gore presidency. Afterall, the subprime policy was leftover from Clinton-Gore and Clinton did take military action against Iraq throughout his presidency and considered invasion when Saddam considered 'Oil-for-Food' policies that would weaken the dollar. I believe there is a place for regulation...but a correction to over-regulation is just as wrong. So while Obama may have had a policy reversal...oops, my bad: policy evolution...on Wall Street I think his healthcare initiative (bad idea under Republicans too) and energy policies have been harmfull to people in the middle and lower classes.

Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama


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TheMason
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 12:26:53 Reply

At 10/11/12 11:42 AM, CaveStoryGrounds wrote:
At 10/11/12 11:00 AM, TheMason wrote: For the first time in the race Romney has taken the lead in the RCP average.
It should be noted; The polls mean nothing. What matters are the polices, what is said and done and not how it is said or done. People have been voted into many political positions while be not only down in the polls but far down.

It should be noted that anyone who says "The polls mean nothing." [emphasis mine] is presenting an indicator that they do not understand elections and electoral behavior.

The polls are an indicator of who is going to win an election or ballot initiative. They are highly, highly accurate. Your assertion that people win trailing in the polls is a little thin: 1) it does not happen often...it is actually pretty rare. 2) When it does occur it is either because of a faulty polling model, bias in the poll, or it is a down ticket races (presidential races get polled a lot and a lot of money and effort put into them...while state representative races tend not to be so thouroughly polled). Also, one of the reasons I like the RCP average is: 1) poll averages tend to be more accurate and precise and 2) the RCP average has shown to historically be significantly close to the actual election day result.

There are somethings that I'm looking at with this election that makes me wonder about the polls:
1) There is some talk that the polls are modeled incorrectly and biased towards Obama. (IE: polling more Democrats than are likely to turn-out.)
2) I am thinking there may be some of the Bradley effect at play with this election.

But we won't know until the election. Until then as a political scientist, I need to trust my instruments and what they are telling me. My personal theory is that the Bradley effect is happening and Obama's numbers are inflated by 2-3%, but the only proof I have of that will be to compare actual election results on 8 November to the 7 November RCP average.

So I'm sorry my friend, but polls are important. In fact, they are the measure of how what the candidates say and their policy proposals are accepted (or not) by the voters.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 12:39:33 Reply

At 10/11/12 11:46 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:
At 10/11/12 11:42 AM, CaveStoryGrounds wrote:
"What matters are the polices"
Funny how you never hear anyone speak of Ethics in politics only arbitrary "policy" that voters have absolutely no control over for 4 years.

1) Ethics is a system of moral principles. These moral principles may be applied to professions, individuals, institutions, corporations, etc. Morality is often brought up in campaigns, especially amongst candidates and especially presidential candidates.

2) Arbitrary, used in a political sense, means something that is not confined or based upon law or other rules. Policy, as used in a political sense, is a course of action based upon the law. Therefore, when talking about the policies that a candidate favors in regard to running for an office..."policy" cannot be arbitrary.

3) Let's say you own a company and you're hiring someone. During the interview...aren't you going to be interested in what that person is going to do in your name? With the authority and power you grant them? That is what policy is: how they are going to do the job they are applying for by running for the office. To be so dismissive of "policy" is absurd.


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Jmayer20
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 13:00:29 Reply

To be honest I think the only reason people say Romney won the debate is because he was much more enthusiastic and passionate then Obama was. Romney said many things that if you don't think about it sound inspiring and catchy. But if you look at alot of the things that Romney said and think about it you find that it doesn't make sense.

Example: When Obama said that "Romney is promising to reduce your taxes, decrease the government debt, increase spending on things like the military, and that his plan for doing so is to close loop holes but he has not told us how he will close those loop hole and even if he did there are economists that did the math and found that even if you closed all of them you still don't have enough money to pay to do what you claim." Romney had 3 responses to that.

1. He claimed I never said I was going to decrease taxes. Your party likes to say that and that we are going to increase the debt because that is good propaganda but its not true. (Now I remember him clearly taking about decreasing taxes in fact here is a video of him during the primary's talking about it. So he lied)

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/mitt-romney-clai ms-he-wants-cut-taxes-midd

2. He said I will never support a bill that will hurt the middle class Americans. You keep saying this but that's not true. (This one doesn't even answer the question he just pushed it aside. He still did not answer how he is going to decrease taxes, decrease the debt, and increase spending at the same time.)

3. Romney's response to the loop hole was. "That is what some economists claim but others say different." (Once again he did not answer the question. He did not say how he was going to close those loop holes.)

If you actually think about what Romney said then you can see that it was Obama that should have been declared the victor. But people don't like to think. They like to be inspired shock and owed. They want some one who is enthusiastic and passionate and in that Romney won.

leanlifter1
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 13:12:09 Reply

At 10/11/12 12:39 PM, TheMason wrote:
To be so dismissive of "policy" is absurd.

1) "Ethics" - More specific the lack of ethics in politics today is the issue and as well my preferred branch of which is "secular" and "Secular Ethics" are the basis on which all decisions big or small in government must be made upon and I believe there is no room for debate on this that is unless you are dabbling in the collusion of theistic opinions in politics of which I highly do not recommend as religion & money need to stay out of politics IMO.

2) "Arbitrary" - As in most of the policies created within politics and government.

3) "policy" is absurd. For the most part I must agree that most policies are absurd as policy that is not based upon "secular ethics" is unmoral, Unjust, and just illogical at the very core.

A contract for Government and Politicians to operate and abide by derived on a moral code based in "Secular Ethics" is what I am suggest as one possible corrective step towards a better civilization with more happiness and equality for all people of the world. Therefor with that being said what I am suggesting is that Governmental & Political policy not based upon "Secular ethics" is absurd.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 13:25:57 Reply

With the two candidates being neck in neck, I can't helped but be reminded of the 2000 election with Gore and Bush. Do you think something like that could happen again? I kind of doubt it would take as long as that, but it would probably be one of our closest races. Of course, nothing could top the Hayes/Tilden election where they agreed to give all the electoral votes to Hayes, making him win by just one vote.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 13:57:33 Reply

At 10/7/12 06:55 PM, Korriken wrote:
At 10/7/12 01:47 PM, HiryuGouki wrote:
move to Canada? great idea! Just what Canada needs, another mouth to suckle the sow of "free money". I doubt student aid or disability are going anywhere. College student eh... I think I have diagnosed your problem. you've been brainwashed by your professors. poor little fella...

;;;
As a Canadian I would like to point out
We are HUGELY affected by the USA, they are our closest neighbor & are a HUGE market for Canadian raw materials & goods.
Take away the demand for these products & it decimates our economy.
Which is part of the reason a new pipeline is being started to the Pacific Coast.

Canada may be much larger than the USA but we only have about 1/10 ththe population & most of that population lives withing 100 miles of our common border.

Students in University pay large tuitions in this country & go into debt as well to go to higher learning centres.
We are taxed at a much higher rate than Americans ... it ain't all roses up here , did I mention our weather ?
~;p


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leanlifter1
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 14:06:19 Reply

At 10/11/12 01:57 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
Take away the demand for these products & it decimates our economy.

Na the demand will never decimate although our economy might slow down a bit until it regulates again when China starts consuming our natural resources when the Americans across the boarder go under and they can no longer pay for them. Canada supply's the US with only 10% of there total annual Oil needs but represents 50% of Canada total annual Oil production.


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TheMason
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 14:30:00 Reply

At 10/11/12 01:25 PM, Ericho wrote: With the two candidates being neck in neck, I can't helped but be reminded of the 2000 election with Gore and Bush. Do you think something like that could happen again? I kind of doubt it would take as long as that, but it would probably be one of our closest races. ...

That is always a concern when the race is this close. So it is a possiblity; and I hope to hell that that won't happen this time. If Romney wins that way...I think there will be civil unrest.

But I have a gut feeling that one of the candiates will win by 2% or more.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 17:10:01 Reply

At 10/11/12 12:05 PM, TheMason wrote:
At 10/8/12 08:09 PM, Feoric wrote: It's also weird that you would be in support of Obama if he was a neoliberal (which he ostensibly is), as if this is somehow a good thing that didn't bring the global economy to it's knees, no siree.

...[snip..]

I think you and I have had disagreements in the past...but here, you are on the money 100%

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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 21:24:29 Reply

Undecided Women voters seem to really like Ryan's point of views, and they drop low when Joe Biden talks. The men seem to be more critical of Republicans and Women seem more critical of Democrats. I think I'm siding with the Women.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 21:27:59 Reply

Ryan is now talking about how young people and everyone are struggling under the Democrats to find work. Both women and men agreed but women seem to agree a little bit more.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 21:31:44 Reply

When Joe Biden talks about Jobs both men and women start to decline and don't seem to be happy about what he is talking about. It showed men being a little bit more upset with what Joe Biden was talking about. I'm watching this from CNN.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 21:35:21 Reply

Joe Biden was talking about borrowing money from China and the yellow/green line both decreased when he said we needed to do that to survive. Seems like people disagree with Vice President Joe BIden, and so do I.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 22:03:56 Reply

Vice President Joe Biden tries to take a cheap shot and mentions Sarah Palin's name when they were talking about Medicare because he knows people don't like her and both undecided Men/Women's line decreased dramatically. So, I guess the people aren't buying his bullshit. Now Joe BIden said a comment saying something about don't take more than 4 minutes but Paul Ryan has more 3 minutes less time than biden. So it's Joe BIden who keeps talking and undecided Voters seem to not agree much with Biden.

Edit:

9:43pm now and it seems men seem to hate both these candidates because the green lie keeps going low when both Joe BIden and Paul Ryan talk. But whenever Paul Ryan talks the undecided Women seem to agree much more than men usually.

9:46pm Joe Biden talks about tax cuts on the Wealthy and both men/women finally agree with Joe Biden probably the first time in the debate. Joe Biden is now attacking the Wealthy saying they need to pay more taxes even tho I believe the Wealthy already pays more taxes than middle class... But the undecided Voters agree with him.

I also like the fact that the undecided voters weren't influenced with Joe Biden throwing in his wife/daughters death because the line basically stayed in the middle and didn't jump up for either men or women. Joe Biden always mentions the death of his family members at these debates because he thinks that will help gain him votes, but most people watching these Debates knew he'd use that type of dirty tactics. May his family RIP, but we are talking about creating jobs and lower the deficit Mr. Vice President. But your administration has done nothing but add to the deficit and definitely have not created enough new jobs.

10:00pm Both Men and Women Strongly agreed with Joe Biden about leaving Afghanistan in 2014 but I'm skeptical about that really happening no matter who is in the white house.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 22:43:06 Reply

At 10/11/12 09:24 PM, TheKlown wrote: Undecided Women voters seem to really like Ryan's point of views, and they drop low when Joe Biden talks. The men seem to be more critical of Republicans and Women seem more critical of Democrats. I think I'm siding with the Women.

You seem worried


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 22:44:08 Reply

Biden is completely out-talking Ryan, but is being a condescending prick in doing so. I don't have any experience in debate, but I generally wouldn't think that outward arrogance of the kind Biden's doing earns all too many points.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 22:52:17 Reply

Ryan no different then Romney, lies lies lies. But Biden was a little more out-going then Obama and slammed Ryan pretty much everytime he lied or was trying to be deceiving. Ryan couldn't answer the question "What would you do different", instead he answered with the party line like a good little drone.

Biden won the debate.

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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 22:55:39 Reply

At 10/11/12 10:44 PM, Spretznaz wrote: Biden is completely out-talking Ryan, but is being a condescending prick in doing so. I don't have any experience in debate, but I generally wouldn't think that outward arrogance of the kind Biden's doing earns all too many points.

Yes, Biden was quite rude at various times throughout the debate with his interruptions and laughs. I found the moderator to not be MODERATING that and at times she was even interrupting Ryan when it had not even been 2 minutes.

I was checking on Twitter what people were saying about the debate and some were saying it was like Ryan was facing two democrats and even more interesting, someone claimed Obama was at the wedding of the moderator. Fact checks on that will be needed but interesting nonetheless.

I think Biden and Ryan both did a good job at describing their plans. However, Ryan not so much because at times when he was getting into the details of some of his ideas he got cut off by either the moderator or Biden.

Good debate overall.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 22:57:58 Reply

At 10/11/12 10:43 PM, naronic wrote:
At 10/11/12 09:24 PM, TheKlown wrote: Undecided Women voters seem to really like Ryan's point of views, and they drop low when Joe Biden talks. The men seem to be more critical of Republicans and Women seem more critical of Democrats. I think I'm siding with the Women.
You seem worried

Not worried, because there's more women in our country that vote. Actually I'm more relieved because I don't trust this Administration at all. They have no done what they said they have set out to do. A lot of people who supported President Obama and The Democrats now are a supporting Governor Mitt Romney for president. Some of them even being attacked called racial slurs on their twitter for going against President Obama and The Democrats.

Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 23:10:34 Reply

i thought omaba was hispanic at first and so i voted for him bcz i like tacos but then i learned he was only pretending to be fromo meico so he could be black and make birth certeficate. i cant trust any1 who does that so romney wins the debate no mater what he says abuot global warming

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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 23:13:25 Reply

I think Biden was the clear winner in tonight's debate. Many in the news are talking about his smile and mannerisms possibly being a liability and fodder for SnL (which creates a meme that sticks in voter's heads). I thought Biden delivered a good performance, and probably connected better with voters than Ryan did. However, historically VP debates don't have much of an impact on the direction of the race.

But this year, as has often been the case, things could be different. I think the Dems focus grouped responses to Romney and armed Biden with them. So he was able to come out and answer Romney where Obama could not last week.

But what it all hinges on to me was Ryan's answer to the questions about abortion. Talk about 'opposing abortion' and not letting unelected judges make policy...are easy fodder for Dem spin doctors to fit into the 'War on Women' narrative.

Worst case; I'm thinking that in the places where Romney took the lead he may lose up to half of it (which puts him in most states at a tie).

I think Ryan missed a few chances like when they were talking about the Afghanistan surge and Biden was beating him up about how American troops were replaced with Afghan troops...Ryan should've hit back with something like: "So you'd have our troops reinforced by the guys who are turning on them...and killing them...back at base...having their backs on the battlefield instead of other American soldiers?"

All in all...not the blow-out we saw last week. The numbers I saw had Ryan losing by 10% (55% Biden vs 45% Ryan), whereas Obama's closest was 42% behind Romney. But I think Biden most definately won.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 23:17:11 Reply

At 10/11/12 11:13 PM, TheMason wrote: I think Biden was the clear winner in tonight's debate. Many in the news are talking about his smile and mannerisms possibly being a liability and fodder for SnL (which creates a meme that sticks in voter's heads). I thought Biden delivered a good performance, and probably connected better with voters than Ryan did. However, historically VP debates don't have much of an impact on the direction of the race.

But this year, as has often been the case, things could be different. I think the Dems focus grouped responses to Romney and armed Biden with them. So he was able to come out and answer Romney where Obama could not last week.

But what it all hinges on to me was Ryan's answer to the questions about abortion. Talk about 'opposing abortion' and not letting unelected judges make policy...are easy fodder for Dem spin doctors to fit into the 'War on Women' narrative.

Worst case; I'm thinking that in the places where Romney took the lead he may lose up to half of it (which puts him in most states at a tie).

I think Ryan missed a few chances like when they were talking about the Afghanistan surge and Biden was beating him up about how American troops were replaced with Afghan troops...Ryan should've hit back with something like: "So you'd have our troops reinforced by the guys who are turning on them...and killing them...back at base...having their backs on the battlefield instead of other American soldiers?"

All in all...not the blow-out we saw last week. The numbers I saw had Ryan losing by 10% (55% Biden vs 45% Ryan), whereas Obama's closest was 42% behind Romney. But I think Biden most definately won.

On CNN they didn't really mention a winner but Biden won the polls. On CNN they basically said it was even, some felt Biden won and some felt Ryan won. So, at that conclusion I don't think tonights Debate hurt or helped either party. Which is a good thing since Romney/Obama was so one-sided. It really irked me that Joe Biden would go so low and used his wife/daughters tragedy to try to gain votes, that it is a low-ball tactic. I was glad when he threw that in his debate that the the yellow/green line stayed in the middle and people weren't praising him for trying to gain votes from a tragedy. I really don't like Biden. Some people say he is likable but I find him to be a disgusting politician personally.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 23:19:05 Reply

damn, I missed the debate

does anyone have a link on where to find a recording?


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- no.

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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 23:48:54 Reply

At 10/11/12 11:17 PM, TheKlown wrote: On CNN they didn't really mention a winner but Biden won the polls. On CNN they basically said it was even, some felt Biden won and some felt Ryan won. So, at that conclusion I don't think tonights Debate hurt or helped either party. Which is a good thing since Romney/Obama was so one-sided. It really irked me that Joe Biden would go so low and used his wife/daughters tragedy to try to gain votes, that it is a low-ball tactic. I was glad when he threw that in his debate that the the yellow/green line stayed in the middle and people weren't praising him for trying to gain votes from a tragedy. I really don't like Biden. Some people say he is likable but I find him to be a disgusting politician personally.

Both men had to do two different things:

BIDEN: He had to re-energize the Dem base for Obama and say all the things Obama did not. That he did. Furthermore, his mannerisms probably helped him pick-up the sagging energy level of the Democratic base following last week's debate. Finally, he spoke directly into the camera and had responses at the ready (I'll leave the validity of each candidate's facts to the fact checkers). This made him look more like a champion of the little guy...which may work with the white working class and the elderly.

RYAN: He had to come out and sway independents. He came across as wonky and knowledgeable of the budget, even though his foreign policy answers seemed thin. When it came to national security and the military; he seemed more knowledgable than Biden (he knew about why there are fighting seasons, the geography of Afghanistan, and the different factions). Economic issues were a draw; he came across as more wonky and stiff while Biden came across more passionately. The big thing is the way he answered the abortion issue; may play into the 'War on Women' narrative the Dems put out.

Remember this Klown: political analysis is not about what you want to happen but knowing what works with convincing voters to vote for you. Individually, we all vote similarly to about 3% of the population. The other 97% is either further Left or Right than us...so we need to be aware of political trends and what directs the ebb and flow of support from each demographic. I so wanted Ryan to win...but everything that I know from experience campaigning to studying electoral behavior...informs me that this was Biden's night. Not by as much as Romney won by...but still a clear Biden victory.

However, SnL and the comedians may change that with their treatment of Biden's mannerisms.


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TheKlown
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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 23:57:07 Reply

While I'm registered independent, I do have some conservative values, as I do some liberal values but I don't know I've never really been a fan of the Democratic party. I am basically admitting I am biased.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-11 23:58:09 Reply

At 10/11/12 11:28 PM, RightWingGamer wrote: Biden didn't conduct himself at all.

Obama may have lost the first debate, but at least he was a gentleman. Biden acted downright childish at times during the veep debate. It felt like I was watching a Jim Carrey movie, rather than a serious political debate.

Polls are saying they like that type of Joe Biden tho, since he technically won the debate even if it was by a small margin.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-12 00:04:42 Reply

Ryan I feel is a better debater than Romney in his knowledge and attempts at using facts in his arguments (yes, I have to call them "attempts" because of the GOP's typical sterling record of spouting undeniable truth). Biden took care to hit some points that Obama missed. I didn't find him to be too rude or having a tendency to digress on topics, in fact, Ryan appeared to have far more time on each topic than Biden. The one thing that bothered me about Biden though is his near constant chuckling. I found the occasional "boy you don't know what you're talking about" quips to be fair game, but chuckling as if your opponent has no idea what they're talking about is outright rude. At the very least, Obama and Romney have an established respect for each other during their debates. At least on camera.

Biden's answer in the abortion bit towards the end was really touching. That he attributes his disdain for abortion for women that were not victims of rape/incest/etc. to his catholic faith, but he wouldn't oppose those beliefs on anybody.

May I stress again that a Catholic said those words? Come on, you can't just ignore that.


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Response to Tonight! Debate - Romney/obama 2012-10-12 00:08:53 Reply

At 10/12/12 12:04 AM, Gustavos wrote:
Biden's answer in the abortion bit towards the end was really touching. That he attributes his disdain for abortion for women that were not victims of rape/incest/etc. to his catholic faith, but he wouldn't oppose those beliefs on anybody.

May I stress again that a Catholic said those words? Come on, you can't just ignore that.

Sounds like a fake Catholic, I only support Abortion when it is from rape victims. I'm not religious but Joe BIden doesn't seem like a real Catholic to me. I think most people don't believe abortion is right if it's just some person slutting around. That is a living person being ripped out of someone, that is disgusting.


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