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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:24 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 05:31 PM, Scarface wrote: Please note that this is not a "You're wrong" topic, but more of a "Why" topic.

As some of you know, I am agnostic, and this is because although I don't really believe anything, I like to remain open minded to any theory, even ones that seem unlikely. Atheists deny the existence of God because there is no scientific proof. This is true, there is no proof of God's existence. However, if they truly wish to act and think with logic, then how can they discount the theory of God entirely? There is no proof that God does not exist. So wouldn't it be more scientifically correct to not invest belief in God, but to also remain open minded to the possibility (however unlikely) that God exists until evidence proving otherwise is uncovered?

I don't know, just wondering. Tell me your beliefs and opinions, Newgrounds.

Tell me about it... At least you don't get criticized for it as often as i do. Everything is based on religion nowadays. It's almost as bad as gang fueds. I completely understand and feel for you bro.

Atheism


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:28 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:22 PM, Chdonga wrote:
At 9/18/12 09:13 PM, Tateos wrote: I love how we're the only people who provided reasonable well thought-out rebuttals to the OP's post, and yet we were ignored completely (thus far)...
This. Oh, this I hate.

Why do you feel the need to justify your beliefs to others? No matter how well thought out your reasons are, you won't change anyone's opinion on them. It's just a waste of time and turns decent discussions into pointless flamewars.

I think you're disagreeing with me (either that or agreeing and paraphrasing), but this is the exact point that I made later on. All I was doing was putting my thought's on the OP's questions out there.

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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:30 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:13 PM, Tateos wrote: I love how we're the only people who provided reasonable, well thought-out rebuttals to the OP's post, and yet we were ignored completely (thus far).

Yeah, that's how it tends to go around here unfortunately. People don't like to read. For what it's worth, I liked your post a lot (I'm going to have to use that "religion is a hypothesis without data" thing sometime in the future) and I originally intended on replying to it at the end of my post with something along the lines of "Also, this. Good stuff."

With most debates, it seems like people would rather just try and make the other person look wrong or stupid to everyone watching, rather than further the cause, or make any progress. If you think that (most) of the kind of arguments posted in this thread could actually further a cause or change the way someone thinks about something, you're delusional.

To be fair, some people have been making some pretty good points (mainly the various "Pascal's Wager is bullshit" folks and the people stressing that atheism is not a belief system, but a lack of belief), but for the most part they're just flatly stating them without elaborating or specifically responding to the things the OP is saying.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:35 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:16 PM, wreckr wrote:
At 9/18/12 09:02 PM, Samuraikyo wrote: Atheism is just an extreme belief, must of how fundementalist religious people are who take their religion and readings literally. They never shut up about being right and are both quick to judge others. Following a religion or claiming not to know (Being Agnostic) are really the only middle ground one can be part of.
That's completely false.

I consider myself an atheist and I don't go around bragging that I don't believe in god. Also, I don't judge people if they do. Also, it's funny because you are judging people...

Except it isn't. That's my point and users are proving it with their responses. Atheism isn't a belief. It's is the idea that you already know. There is nothing more egocentric then claiming you know anything considering it's impossible for you to claim an absolute about anything in life.

And since you can't claim that you know an absolute because it is illogical, it is nothing more than a mere BELIEF. Atheism is a belief. Not an absolute. It's really quite the simple but given the responses to my post, there are an awful lot of people who don't understand the concept of Atheism why it's illogical to assume you know anything.

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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:35 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:13 PM, Tateos wrote: I love how we're the only people who provided reasonable, well thought-out rebuttals to the OP's post, and yet we were ignored completely (thus far).

Just because I haven't responded to anyone doesn't mean I'm ignoring them, it just means I have nothing really to say. I'm not trying to argue or agree with anyone really, just gain insight on what other people think of what I discussed in the OP.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:41 PM Reply

Yeah, I don't feel like writing an essay on my beliefs or lack thereof. So I do agree that most of my points are rather sparse, i.e. not there at all.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:51 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:35 PM, Samuraikyo wrote: Except it isn't. That's my point and users are proving it with their responses. Atheism isn't a belief. It's is the idea that you already know. There is nothing more egocentric then claiming you know anything considering it's impossible for you to claim an absolute about anything in life.
And since you can't claim that you know an absolute because it is illogical, it is nothing more than a mere BELIEF. Atheism is a belief. Not an absolute. It's really quite the simple but given the responses to my post, there are an awful lot of people who don't understand the concept of Atheism why it's illogical to assume you know anything.

You don't seem to get it. Not all atheists are gnostic. I'm not. They don't all claim to know for a fact that there is no god. I don't. And again, it isn't a belief. It's a lack of belief. That's all it is. Beyond that, the specifics vary from atheist to atheist.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:56 PM Reply

This thread is still fucking going?

Atheism

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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:58 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:56 PM, Shade wrote: This thread is still fucking going?

Yes. And Samurai Jack was an awesome show. I wish they would bring it back somehow.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 09:59 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:58 PM, Crazywill wrote:
At 9/18/12 09:56 PM, Shade wrote: This thread is still fucking going?
Yes. And Samurai Jack was an awesome show. I wish they would bring it back somehow.

Sadly, Mako (the voice of Aku) passed away in 2007 or so.

Unless someone knows any resurrection spells, we're fucked.

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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 10:02 PM Reply

I have come to peace that life is probably a coincidence and everything is meaningless.
Meaning is something that humans created after all.
But note that I said probably, having a God would totally be awesome.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 10:07 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 05:58 PM, GiantDouche wrote: the burden of evidence is placed upon the individual who makes the assertion. it wouldn't make sense for me to tell you to disprove that santa's ghost is currently rubbing his testicles on your forehead because no matter how you argue it i could just say that you can't fully disprove it. does this mean that a scientific minded person should be open to the idea of any ridiculous, irrefutable hypothesis? science does not lend itself to the supernatural because it is grounded in observable fact. what you're proposing has nothing to do with being scientifically correct but just being an irrational shit who blindly accepts the possibility of anything. to say it's unlikely that there's no god is ridiculous because that implies some degree of measure or statistics when we are talking about an entirely intangible concept fabricated by idiots thousands of years ago before we had science to explain the natural world.

also this thread adds absolutely nothing to newgrounds' rich theological knowledge as you've simply regurgitated a logical fallacy made by many, many people.

I can somewhat agree with this
but let people discuss what they want.
Religion isn't much more than remaining ignorance from the old ages.
You seem like you are trying to shove your opinion down our throats, however. Whether or not you were doing that, it still kindof seemed like it.
But let live I say, I'll keep open minded.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 10:16 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 09:51 PM, Sense-Offender wrote:
At 9/18/12 09:35 PM, Samuraikyo wrote: Except it isn't. That's my point and users are proving it with their responses. Atheism isn't a belief. It's is the idea that you already know. There is nothing more egocentric then claiming you know anything considering it's impossible for you to claim an absolute about anything in life.
And since you can't claim that you know an absolute because it is illogical, it is nothing more than a mere BELIEF. Atheism is a belief. Not an absolute. It's really quite the simple but given the responses to my post, there are an awful lot of people who don't understand the concept of Atheism why it's illogical to assume you know anything.
You don't seem to get it. Not all atheists are gnostic. I'm not. They don't all claim to know for a fact that there is no god. I don't. And again, it isn't a belief. It's a lack of belief. That's all it is. Beyond that, the specifics vary from atheist to atheist.

To reject a God would be to "know for a fact" that God doesn't exist. Lack of belief and not claiming to know for a fact is a contridiction. Claiming to not know for a fact is a belief. Atheism is the lack of a belief (at least in the common definition). People should stop referring to themselves as Atheists if they have doubts or believe in something that is called something else.

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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 11:06 PM Reply

Religion is about drawing wild conclusions, then looking for supporting evidence afterwards. Science is about drawing conclusions from the evidence we already have. So no, it wouldn't be more scientific as nothing points to the existence of a divine creator.

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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 11:13 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 05:31 PM, Scarface wrote: Please note that this is not a "You're wrong" topic, but more of a "Why" topic.

As some of you know, I am agnostic, and this is because although I don't really believe anything, I like to remain open minded to any theory, even ones that seem unlikely. Atheists deny the existence of God because there is no scientific proof. This is true, there is no proof of God's existence. However, if they truly wish to act and think with logic, then how can they discount the theory of God entirely? There is no proof that God does not exist. So wouldn't it be more scientifically correct to not invest belief in God, but to also remain open minded to the possibility (however unlikely) that God exists until evidence proving otherwise is uncovered?

I don't know, just wondering. Tell me your beliefs and opinions, Newgrounds.

I would count as an atheist. I am not a materialist though. I believe like an agnostic that there are many possibilities. I'm just not capable of believing in any of them.
I think it's kind of along the lines of "cats could be purple as a possibility I suppose, but I've never seen one so I'm going to live as if they don't exist." Like even though plenty of things are possible, you can really only prescribe to one belief. Don't bother telling me that sounds agnostic because I feel like an agnostic person could believe in some of that stuff if they wanted to or were convinced. And I absolutely cannot, even if I try or want to.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 11:17 PM Reply

I also want to point out I think it's silly for science and religion to be against each other. I feel like religion always starts as a "pre-science". People begin making up religious things to explain the world around them and why things happen. I think it does spur more thought and curiosity and causes people to start doing things that are more and more scientific to explain the world around them. You might expect it to stop and have people be content with just the religious answer but I think most societies keep going and keep pushing for answers.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 11:21 PM Reply

In mass effect, Christianity becomes simple human mythology

And humans are considered a second rate race


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 11:24 PM Reply

At 9/18/12 10:16 PM, Samuraikyo wrote: To reject a God would be to "know for a fact" that God doesn't exist. Lack of belief and not claiming to know for a fact is a contridiction. Claiming to not know for a fact is a belief. Atheism is the lack of a belief (at least in the common definition). People should stop referring to themselves as Atheists if they have doubts or believe in something that is called something else.

You are implying that belief and knowledge are the same thing. They are not.

"Claiming to not know for a fact is a belief." Nope. That's simply acknowledging one's own lack of knowledge. It deals with knowledge, not belief.

You further confuse definitions in saying that people should not be called atheists if they have doubts, but atheism itself is little more than doubt. You yourself defined it as "the lack of belief," which is pretty much the same as doubt. I assume you probably meant that atheists who aren't gnostic 'doubt their lack of belief,' which is just plain silly.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 11:39 PM Reply

Atheists who say that there is no God, is a personal belief. They, nor can scientists say that there is no God, because as you put it that don't have the evidence either way. Nothing is impossible, just very unlikely.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 18th, 2012 @ 11:49 PM Reply

Your immaturity is astounding, between the countless agnostic and BI threads and PMs you think you would come to a conclusion, but you can,t because you suck, just be a pagan gay, you obviously cannot decide, we cn do it together and post on NG, oh yes.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 01:08 AM Reply

At 9/18/12 05:50 PM, Xenomit wrote:
At 9/18/12 05:31 PM, Scarface wrote: I am agnostic, and this is because although I don't really believe anything, I like to remain open minded to any theory
You're an open minded atheist

You are a shame representative of all atheist.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 01:34 AM Reply

Atheism; A fad that's popular among the socially inept teenagers and college students.
Apparently, it's the cool thing to be now-a-days. Let's just "pray" this fad dies soon, I can't tolerate those types of annoying douche bags any longer. They're almost as bad as uppity, proud bronies... Almost.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 01:35 AM Reply

At 9/19/12 01:08 AM, Wurfel-Waffles wrote: You are a shame representative of all atheist.

I'm not a representative of atheism


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 02:18 AM Reply

At 9/18/12 11:24 PM, Winrar1337 wrote:
At 9/18/12 10:16 PM, Samuraikyo wrote: To reject a God would be to "know for a fact" that God doesn't exist. Lack of belief and not claiming to know for a fact is a contridiction. Claiming to not know for a fact is a belief. Atheism is the lack of a belief (at least in the common definition). People should stop referring to themselves as Atheists if they have doubts or believe in something that is called something else.
You are implying that belief and knowledge are the same thing. They are not.

"Claiming to not know for a fact is a belief." Nope. That's simply acknowledging one's own lack of knowledge. It deals with knowledge, not belief.

You further confuse definitions in saying that people should not be called atheists if they have doubts, but atheism itself is little more than doubt. You yourself defined it as "the lack of belief," which is pretty much the same as doubt. I assume you probably meant that atheists who aren't gnostic 'doubt their lack of belief,' which is just plain silly.

No. When I meant "claming to not know for a fact is a belief" is within the idea that you have "knowledge" of the possibility of a God. Not that you lacked the "knowledge."

Everything is set on a principle of beliefs. There are no absolutes might I remind you, well there might be, if there's a God, and if there is, I highly HIGHLY doubt a human has them figured out. Someone who does not have knowledge of Gods or something of that likelyness would probably still question where they came from. That is a belief. All "knowledge" does is expand on the idea of beliefs. Nothing more.

All knowledge is, is the human understanding.

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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 02:32 AM Reply

At 9/18/12 05:38 PM, Scarface wrote:
At 9/18/12 05:34 PM, Yert wrote: oh cool a religion thread
Oh cool a sarcastic post contributing nothing.

oh cool a sarcastic post contributing nothing in response to a sarcastic post contributing nothing

I would never do something like that

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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 03:44 AM Reply

It's really hard to believe in god if you use common sense.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 03:57 AM Reply

Atheists want to disprove it, and I suppose try to make others realize. I dunno how everyone functions, that's just my assumption.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 04:15 AM Reply

At 9/19/12 03:57 AM, Boomstick wrote: Atheists want to disprove it, and I suppose try to make others realize. I dunno how everyone functions, that's just my assumption.

You assumed wrong. Atheists generally know they can't disprove these kinds of things. That doesn't mean they're true, though.

With regard to the topic, I'm an atheist because there's no objective evidence that suggests the existence of God whatsoever. Absolutely none.

And I agree with just about everything that GiantDouche has said in this thread.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 08:21 AM Reply

At 9/19/12 01:34 AM, killerjeff wrote: Atheism; A fad that's popular among the socially inept teenagers and college students.

So you have to either be spiritual or just not make up your mind or else you're just following a trend. brilliant. To your sig, I raise my hand.


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Response to Atheism Sep. 19th, 2012 @ 09:40 AM Reply

At 9/18/12 10:16 PM, Samuraikyo wrote: To reject a God would be to "know for a fact" that God doesn't exist.

No, it wouldn't. It would be refusing to believe an extraordinary claim solely on faith. If you tell me you have a 2 pound diamond in your pocket and I say "I don't believe you unless you show me", it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm calling you a liar. It's completely possible to reserve judgment about a claim until further evidence is provided, which would mean that you don't have belief one way or the other but you would have a lack of belief in the validity of said claim.

Lack of belief and not claiming to know for a fact is a contridiction.

No, it isn't. Lack of belief and belief are a contradiction, claiming to know and not claiming to know are a contradiction. However, it's completely possible to lack belief or believe while not claiming to know or claiming to know.

Claiming to not know for a fact is a belief.

It's an admission of ignorance which doesn't deal with belief in the validity of any claim.

Atheism is the lack of a belief (at least in the common definition).

You would be right if you understood what lack of belief means. However, you think lack of belief must be accompanied by claims of knowledge to the contrary of a particular claim and that is simply wrong.


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