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At 8/25/12 02:00 AM, ThirtyTurtles wrote: Good teachers matter. Teachers influence the students with more than just higher grades and more academic knowledge; morals can be attained by respectable teachers.

Nobody is saying good teachers don't matter. What I am saying is that even if we have an army of teachers all equivalent to the best teacher this country has ever had, the results would still be small, and out students would still be behind other nations. Morals are nto supposed to be taught by teachers. They're called teachers, not "surrogate parents". Teachers are there to provide the information in a way that a competant and attentive student will retain. Their job isn't to undo a decade of parental conditioning that school is a waste of time, or fill in the void of a decade of absent parenting. Teachers may be able to inspire students, but the parents must plant the seeds for that to happen. Think back to school. Who made you learn and work hard? Your teachers? Sure, they liked it when you did, but what could they do?

Most teachers apply moderate effort to their students for moderate pay. Many of these teachers would gladly accept an increased income due to performance.

I think you need to reread the article. They showed that giving a bonus does not statistically increase scores (even the measly 5%). Rather is was a penalty based incetive, where the teacher lost money that created the statistically small increase.

We need to replace tenure with a fair system of evaluation that includes input from fellow teachers, supervisors, and most especially, parents.

Absolutely NOT. Sure, fellow teachers and supervisors, but parents?! Where the hell has this guy been the past 20 years? Parents would have a teacher fired for trying to discipline their child, or by not giving them an A+ even though that student failed to turn in any work. When you have a crop of good parents, then yes it will work, but now, with the terrible parenting we have today, you will see numerous teachers being fired for doing the right thing (and ironically doing exactly what the parents are asking teachers to do: parent)

That fair system of evaluation should base a teacher's income on performance. Higher performance yields higher pay, and vice versa. Merit-based pay rewards the best instructors and weeds out the cynical, burned out teachers that have coasted on tenure for far too long.

How really do you evaluate? The clientelle of any given school in any given annum is too varied to have any sort of truly effective evaluation tool. It'd be like evaluating a grocery store based on the average income of its customers on any given day. It varies like crazy and is completely out of the school's and teacher's control. One year a teacher could have a bunch of spoiled brats whose parents taught them that school doesn't matter (and who are dumber than shit to boot) and that teacher will lose out. How does that incentivize?

In an effort to get the best results, teachers will seek out modern teaching technologies involving computer-based training, Internet podcasts, iPad apps, etc. Teachers will be motivated to try new approaches and students will use this training for PowerPoints, presentations and other things necessary in college.

Umm... Where is this money coming from? Oh, and the only skills necessary for success in college are flexibility, quick learning, and a love for learning. Unless a student is able to get these three base attributes, any other addition is nothing other than a waste of time.

"There is no such thing as a bad student, only a bad teacher."

Bull shit. That is a load of crap, likely from the same sort of parent who never tried to properly teach their kid. There are terrible students left and right, and if the author of this statement thinks that the teachers haven't tried to pick these students up, this person is extremely stupid (probably because all of the articles were by right wing think tanks).

Students cannot be expected to offer full potential when teachers themselves lack motivation and performance. A program in Florida provides bonuses to teachers who succeed in helping students to pass AP exams. This program has led to dramatic increases in minority students passing AP exams. A similar project in Dallas also succeeded in increasing AP passing rates.

AP scores are both a great and a terrible way to show this. The problem with AP scores is the sample group. Who takes AP test and AP courses? Intelligent and motivated students. So having students who are already capable and have the motivation (i.e. good students) means that the success of the program is very limited. The study does not address the bad student issue, all it shows is that when you have students that care, a good teacher can make them better. It does not show that a good teacher will make bad and average students better, or better enough to make a difference.

Synopsis: some teachers are not paid enough, others don't deserve to be a teacher. Replacing tenure and average income with authoritative evaluation and pay on performance is a much more effective and reliable standard to promote teachers' salary, teaching abilities and the students' knowledge and performance.

This isn't the proper way of going about fixing our education system. Fixing the teachers can only do so much (a pathetic 5% increase. 5% on top of what? 10%? 95%?) The true problem is the parents and the homogenous education system. Look at the other countries that routinely "burn" us in education. What do they have in common? They have heterogenous education. They often filter out students into 3 categories: those who will go to academic succes in college; those who will succeed fairly well in a skilled trade (low level white collar/high level blue collar); and those who are destined for lower end manual work. Want to venture a guess as to who takes the nationally compared tests in those countries? Not the latter two groups. But here in American we force the low end and the middle workers to study on a high end track. Not only does this waste their time, it hinders the students who should be in the higher track, as the school has to slow the process down to cater to the majority of students who, frankly, shouldn't be learning it.

Good teachers will always help, but if you think that good teaching is a panacea to all (or even a significant portion) of our educational problems, think again.

Incentive-based systems for teachers are horrible due to a false premise. Not all kids are equal. There really is such thing as a dumb kid, and there really is such thing as a gifted kid. If I got a big bonus for all of my kids passing their standardized test, that would lead me to do several things as a teacher:

1. Make sure I get a job in an upper middle class school in a good neighborhood, where the kids are smart and will do well even if I suck at my job, and the parents will pick up my slack at home. And spend a few minutes laughing each day at the hard working teachers who have jobs in inner city schools, where half the class doesn't show up each day because it's not safe to walk to school when the drug dealing gangs are on the streets.

2. Don't waste time teaching my kids useful things they'll need, like reading comprehension and conceptual mathematics. Just teach them what key phrases to look for in word problems so they know what to do on the standardized test, and various shortcuts for making their test easier.

3. Make sure other teachers at my school are on the same page, because if someone in my grade level screws this up and costs me my bonus money, me and the rest of the teachers are going to lynch that poor educator.

Doctors are better at their jobs compared to most teachers.

At 8/26/12 02:17 AM, TheKlown wrote: Doctors are better at their jobs compared to most teachers.

I would love to hear you defend this statement.

Doctors are way more important than teachers. You can be taught by a video or over the internet. Doctors can not cure you by video or over the internet.

At 8/27/12 06:25 PM, DoctorStrongbad wrote: Doctors are way more important than teachers. You can be taught by a video or over the internet. Doctors can not cure you by video or over the internet.

WOW you are very naive. I would love to see a video answer questions, or make sure the students are not cheating. Stop kicking your self in the ass. We all know there are things that you can't learn or things you can't do in class with out a teacher. Look if you truly believe in not giving teachers good pay then come up with a logical argument. But stop making these lam ass remarks because we all know including you that what you just said is bullshit.

At 8/28/12 01:28 AM, Jmayer20 wrote: WOW you are very naive.

He's a troll. Have you ever noticed he never backs any wild claim up or tries to say anything serious? His whole goal is to get you to react just like you did. Unless he posts a well thought out post (not gonna happen) don't waste your time on him.

At 8/28/12 01:28 AM, Jmayer20 wrote: WOW you are very naive. I would love to see a video answer questions, or make sure the students are not cheating. Stop kicking your self in the ass. We all know there are things that you can't learn or things you can't do in class with out a teacher. Look if you truly believe in not giving teachers good pay then come up with a logical argument. But stop making these lam ass remarks because we all know including you that what you just said is bullshit.

I'm all for teachers. I'm married to one. But nobody gets into teaching for the awsome compensation. There are two types of people who get into teaching: people who have the calling and want to do it, and people who don't really want to do it but can't get other jobs. There's nobody who gets into teaching because it's a good and lucrative opportunity with great compensation and benefits. Is what teachers do vitally important? Sure. Is it extremely difficult? In some ways, yes. In some ways, not really. Is it worth $200,000 a year to do what teachers do? Definitely not. Would we attract better teachers if we offered better compensation? Maybe. Maybe we'd just attract people seeking the money and prestige. Teachers ought to be paid better (I mean, come on, you need a college degree to do the job, when various undegreed positions are better paid), but let's not over-inflate the profession with undue cheerleading. It's the babysitting and classroom management part of being a teacher that's hard. The acutal educating part is pretty easy. The problem today is that everybody wants to blame teachers and hold them accountable when problem students fail and misbehave. You know whether a student is college-bound by the time they're in second grade. The smart ones pay attention, learn, and succeed practically on their own. The dumb ones fail no matter what you try.

To become a teacher in most states, you need to complete a four-year B.A. degree in education, or an alternate 4-year degree and some kind of extra coursework or exam that qualifies you to be a teacher. Then, all teachers regardless of major need to pass a certification test for the grade level they're teaching. If you're a high school teacher, you also need to pass a subject matter exam for the subject you're teaching. These are really easy tests. Before the economy went completely to hell, there was a sizeable teacher shortage, so you could become a teacher without passing your certification exam as long as you were working toward it. Now that nobody can find work any more, people have flocked to become teachers because it used to be high-security employment where anybody could get hired. It's a lot tougher to find work as a teacher now as a result.

To become a doctor, you need to complete a four-year B.S. degree, take the MCAT (which is a brutal test), get into medical school, pass medical school (and pay for medical school), then if you're going to do something beyond being a general practitioner, go on to do a residency, a fellowship, and get board certified in a medical field. It just plain takes longer and costs more money to become a doctor. To make up for that, doctors make fairly good money. Not great, but good. The million dollar surgeons you hear about on TV are the exception to the rule. Most doctors do fairly well, but aren't as loaded as society would have us believe. Also, nowadays, the inherent costs, risks, and politics of being a doctor make life a lot more difficult. The insurance companies have a lot of power over what doctors can do and what they can charge, as do hospitals, and insurance premiums for doctors are insanely expensive. A general practitioner who sets up an office to see patients does okay if he manages to build up a sizeable patient base (which takes years), but he won't get rich that way. And regular doctors like that are losing business left and right because most people who aren't mortally ill or injured go to their local pharmacy/drug store or supermarket to the minute-clinic, where a PA will take their temperature and prescribe antibiotics. It's not exactly a video over the internet, but you can get general medical treatment and prescription drugs at the supermarket. All those vaccinations you had growing up that you used to have to go to your pediatrician to get, you can get from the clinic at your supermarket. A lot of people use their local supermarket or pharmacy as their regular doctor. We can't get brain surgery there yet, but maybe one day.

The fact is, for doctors, it's life and death, or at least health and sickness. If a doctor screws something up, people die or are physically injured/unhealthy. People want their doctors to be overpaid and competitive. If somebody's cracking open your chest, you want the rich conceited perfectionist ass who got straight As in everything and beat out 100 other people to get his million dollar salary. You don't want some 40,000 a year regular joe who likes helping people and decided being a doctor would be more fun than being a teacher sewing a new valve into your heart.

At 8/13/12 11:43 AM, Jmayer20 wrote: Have you noticed that the same people who say teachers are so greedy they should be thinking about the students rather then then the money in there pocket. Also say wow patients are so ungrateful to the doctor who helped them. They should be more then happy to pay the doctor what ever he/she charges. They do not think how they or a loved one of there's might need medical help in the future.

You could just as easily flip both around and say. People should be willing to pay teachers the salary they want. They are so ungrateful not thinking about how the teacher helped them with there education or the fact they might have children or grand children who need an education. Doctors are so greedy they should be thinking about there patient's life rather then the money in there pocket.

Both teachers and doctors have to go to college to get there profession. I have come to the conclusion that either teachers should be payed more or doctors should be payed less.

To the arrogant and selfish people who would say "oh I just home school my child". I assure you most Americans can't afford that.

Have you ever noticed how frequently certain people born after 1965 cannot understand how to choose among the words There, Their, and They're whenever they're engaged in written communication of any kind? Let me fill you in on what your teacher failed to help you learn:
The word "there" is used either as an adverb or as a pronoun indicating a place or point or to introduce a sentence in which the verb comes before the subject or has no compliment. " He lives over there." "There are no more apples in the box."
Their is a possessive pronoun. This is the spelling of the word you should have been using in this post. "Their children ... Their teachers ... Their doctors ..."
They're is the contraction or abbreviated form of They are. "They're going to gain a better appreciation for education and medical care.
There is a form of home schooling from which everyone can benefit. It's called taking education seriously and studying.

At 8/1/13 05:31 PM, Rhiannon1223 wrote: Have you ever noticed how frequently certain people born after 1965 cannot understand how to choose among the words There, Their, and They're whenever they're engaged in written communication of any kind?

They're over there chewing their thumbs.

At 8/20/12 02:27 AM, TheKlown wrote: Most teachers I know suck at their job and don't even deserve to be teachers. So the last thing they should be complaining that they're underpaid, if anything most of them are lucky to even have jobs in the first place.

How dumb are you on a scale of 1-10 ? even if every single teacher you knew had nice shit and was a bad teacher that doesn't say shit about teachers in general in your country and definitely not in the rest of the World.

Teachers are generally revered by those on the left and generally distrusted and resented on the right. For a few obvious reasons.

The first reason is one of class. Professional educators from the earliest years to post-secondary education are predominantly left leaning and overwhelmingly loyal to the democratic party. Conservatives resent the fact that this class is put in charge of educating their children, much as they resent the fact that those who enter the journalist profession are predominantly left-leaning and predominantly big D Democratic.

The general left believes strongly that behavioral traits are a result of differences in environment, and in particular in education. Only far right wingers like myself dare question this view. The reverence for the positive effects of education naturally flows into the reverence professional educators.

Once you get past the idea that differences in academic ability are a function of school quality rather than student quality, you will be both more forgiving and less reverent of professional educators. Bad teachers and Teachers Unions are very likely not, as conservatives believe, responsible for poor student performance on standardize tests [which are essentially soft IQ tests] They also deserve far less praise than they receive for the academic achievement of the gifted.

An exceptional teacher may be able to motivate an under-achieving student to perform to his potential, but that's about it.

As for doctors, in any society they will command more prestige as should they. The work they do, even ignoring the questionable levels of certificationism, requires a high level of intelligence and years of experience. Since their work is less intrinsically political, they don't attract the same kind of controversy associated with professional educators.

At 8/4/13 10:37 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: An exceptional teacher may be able to motivate an under-achieving student to perform to his potential, but that's about it.

While I very much agree that doctors are a level (many levels) above teachers, and that the majority of success in a specific student's life rests outside of the teacher's hands, I believe you miss a VERY important point and very much misfire on one of your points.

To the misfire first. You say that a teacher may be able to motivate an underachieving student, well, so what? Frankly, the bottom half (if not more) of American students are not even capable of being economically worthwhile, but they're not the reason a the teachers teach. If a student cannot handle high school they will not excell at life. Those who really matter are the students who care. These students are different in that they already have their ducks in a row and are very ripe for a teacher to make a difference. No bad teacher will harm these students, but a good teacher can turn them from good into great or better. Great or better is what we need more of in society, and writing off teachers for the logical impossibility of inspiring the lazy, apathetic, or the just plain stupid is very much the wrong direction to look at this.

Good teachers can make the better half of students better. That D.O. may have been an M.D. surgeon had he had good teachers instead of mediocre ones.

Finally with the missed point. The point here is not that teachers should be paid the same as doctors. Definitely not. The point is that many doctors are OVERpaid whilst all teachers (the ones who actually teach, not the admin) are horrifically underpaid. Chalk up some of the difference to hours, I know teachers work a lot, but most doctors pull 60 hour weeks regularly, whereas teachers still get something closer to 40 hour workweeks. Chalk up even more difference to the extra education needed, and the level of skill. There's a justified difference, no doubt. But the difference of an average of $40K yearly to $140K yearly is not justified at all. (Don't get me started on high level attorney pay.) For the amount of good a quality teacher can doo, and the amount of effort needed to become ateacher, the pay they recieve is nothing short of criminal.

As for doctors, in any society they will command more prestige as should they. The work they do, even ignoring the questionable levels of certificationism, requires a high level of intelligence and years of experience.

I have seen some seriously shit doctors. A bad doctor can cause mountains more irreperable harm than any level of bad teachers. Lost potential is bad enough, but actual physical harm is far worse. Not to mention most doctors spend a hell of a lot less time working with and getting to know their patients than teachers do their students. Don't get me started on the practicing medicine without a license racket. Doctors have it FAR cushier than their performance track record shows they deserve (and teachers have it far worse than their track record deserves.)