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At 8/17/12 02:27 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Your mom is retired. By the looks of her salary and pension, my guess is she retired over a decade ago. You'll have a hard time finding many teachers who make that much and have that good a pension nowadays. New teacher salaries have shrunk like crazy, almost to the point where they're making as much now as a new teacher did in the 90s. And that pension? Poof! It's gone.

I like how you skipped over the whole Pension being payed out well after her son's death rather than just her's thing.

All the teachers I know live in nice houses and have nice cars. Are they really that underpaid?

At 8/17/12 07:29 PM, TheKlown wrote: All the teachers I know live in nice houses and have nice cars. Are they really that underpaid?

Are they married to some one that has a really good job and makes lot of money? If so then that would explain how they can afford what you said.

At 8/17/12 07:29 PM, TheKlown wrote: All the teachers I know live in nice houses and have nice cars. Are they really that underpaid?

All the black people I know live in my apartment and give me kisses, although that might just be an example of sampling bias.

At 8/17/12 06:36 PM, Memorize wrote: I like how you skipped over the whole Pension being payed out well after her son's death rather than just her's thing.

That's contained in what I said. There's nothing special about the super pension that make anything any different. Cause, guess what? Those don't exist anymore. So how does an outdated payment system affect the teaching profession now? Doesn't.

doctors & teachers may have went to college but a lot of teachers have been laid off from work so their screwed like your mom was last night!
Just kidding...
But in all honesty both Doctors and Teachers have pointless jobs.
Doctors MAY heal you but it depends what kind of doctor, most doctors are very pointless to have.
Unless your terminally ill then you probably don't need to have a check up for a long time...
Most people go to the Grocery store,Retail stores or Fast food restaurants.
Most people I know seem to avoid doctors like the plague because it's added money to their insurance, free health care?
yeah right... you wish we had free health care!
we are no where near free.

the United state's is like one big gated farm for humans to beg for our money.
It's really sad how low we will go to get a job.
Nobody will end up with the right career.

At 8/17/12 02:50 PM, Angry-Hatter wrote:

At 8/17/12 02:44 PM, DoctorStrongbad wrote: Doctors are way more important than teachers. Doctors are worth every penny and should be respected.

How do you become a doctor? Oh right, you need teachers.

Depends where you live also, there's "doctors" in villages in asia that never went to school.
Tradition was just passed on to them to be the healer.

At 8/13/12 11:43 AM, Jmayer20 wrote:

To the arrogant and selfish people who would say "oh I just home school my child". I assure you most Americans can't afford that.

Cost's less to home school a child then put them in private school.

All you need in internet access and a printer to be able to get home schooled.
I know cause I was home schooled~

At 8/19/12 11:47 PM, nakedxbabe wrote: Depends where you live also, there's "doctors" in villages in asia that never went to school.
Tradition was just passed on to them to be the healer.

Yeah, here's what I know: those "doctors" aren't going to be performing any heart transplants any time soon. If you want to become a real doctor, you're going to have to go to school.

Most teachers I know suck at their job and don't even deserve to be teachers. So the last thing they should be complaining that they're underpaid, if anything most of them are lucky to even have jobs in the first place.

At 8/20/12 02:27 AM, TheKlown wrote: Most teachers I know suck at their job and don't even deserve to be teachers. So the last thing they should be complaining that they're underpaid, if anything most of them are lucky to even have jobs in the first place.

Interesting. Out of curiosity, exactly how many teachers DO you know? There are about 7.2 million teachers in the United States. How many of those teachers would you say that you know?

Idiot.

To the OP: My mother is a doctor and I can tell you have no inside knowledge of what they go through. Long story short, it doesn't matter what doctors like my mother charge; the insurance companies have full say over what they will actually pay.

The insurance companies are slowly but surely changing the rules so that they pay doctors less and less and keep more and more.

To anyone who says that doctors are overpaid, I challenge you to ACTUALLY look into the issue. Doctors are not your enemies. Insurance companies are.

At 8/20/12 02:27 AM, TheKlown wrote: Most teachers I know suck at their job and don't even deserve to be teachers. So the last thing they should be complaining that they're underpaid, if anything most of them are lucky to even have jobs in the first place.

Look stop listening to what Fox News says and think back to when you went to school. Can you honestly say that you had no teacher from grade school to high school that were not good at there job. I have had teachers that were good at there job. Also while you are thinking back tell me. Do you remember your teacher driving to school in a Ferrari, wearing fancy cloths and there wallets ready to burst from all the money inside it. I didn't think so.

At 8/20/12 04:53 AM, Angry-Hatter wrote: Interesting. Out of curiosity, exactly how many teachers DO you know? There are about 7.2 million teachers in the United States. How many of those teachers would you say that you know?

I've had maybe 30ish teachers throughout my life, with it most likely being mid to high 20s.

I'd say maybe 4 or 5 of them were actually good, while half of the remaining only repeated shit out of the book and the other half sucked at teaching overall.

Here's the thing, when a lot of people from all over the US are saying how shitty our teachers are, all the while average scores are going down, while dropping out and failure rates are going up, then holy tits, there might just be a teaching problem.

At 8/21/12 08:29 PM, RacistBassist wrote: I'd say maybe 4 or 5 of them were actually good, while half of the remaining only repeated shit out of the book and the other half sucked at teaching overall.

Did you ever care about school? No?

Here's the thing, when a lot of people from all over the US are saying how shitty our teachers are, all the while average scores are going down, while dropping out and failure rates are going up, then holy tits, there might just be a teaching problem.

Or there's a massive apathy problem where the students hate their teachers because they don't want to do the work it takes to learn.

As any person who was smart enough to go to and excel in college, they will tell you that the vast majority of their teachers were good. What's the difference between them and the hordes of lay people who hated their teachers? The college students CARED.

At 8/21/12 08:35 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Did you ever care about school? No?

Yes I did. Well, not in High School that much because every non-AP class was a complete fucking cake walk.

Or there's a massive apathy problem where the students hate their teachers because they don't want to do the work it takes to learn.

They hate the teachers because the teachers are shitty. They then stop caring. Teacher justifies shittiness because of lack of caring. Cycle continues. Now, sure, if the course is actually hard or some shit, that might be the case, but seriously, the high school, middle school, and elementary school level classes are extremely fucking easy relative to age.

As any person who was smart enough to go to and excel in college, they will tell you that the vast majority of their teachers were good. What's the difference between them and the hordes of lay people who hated their teachers? The college students CARED.

Odd, because the kids who go to college take the harder courses. The ones that have the better teachers that care more. Also, nice elitism there, thinking that people who don't go to college are just lay people whereas your some super duper intellectual for going to college. I have been in both the "college" level (Seriously, if that shit passes for college level work, then l o fucking l) courses and the "lay person" courses. In just about every single case, it was the teachers who taught the AP/college courses that cared, while the normal teachers just did the same shit different day routine.

At 8/21/12 08:44 PM, RacistBassist wrote:

At 8/21/12 08:35 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Did you ever care about school? No?

Yes I did. Well, not in High School that much because every non-AP class was a complete fucking cake walk.

Or there's a massive apathy problem where the students hate their teachers because they don't want to do the work it takes to learn.

They hate the teachers because the teachers are shitty. They then stop caring. Teacher justifies shittiness because of lack of caring. Cycle continues. Now, sure, if the course is actually hard or some shit, that might be the case, but seriously, the high school, middle school, and elementary school level classes are extremely fucking easy relative to age.

As any person who was smart enough to go to and excel in college, they will tell you that the vast majority of their teachers were good. What's the difference between them and the hordes of lay people who hated their teachers? The college students CARED.

Odd, because the kids who go to college take the harder courses. The ones that have the better teachers that care more. Also, nice elitism there, thinking that people who don't go to college are just lay people whereas your some super duper intellectual for going to college. I have been in both the "college" level (Seriously, if that shit passes for college level work, then l o fucking l) courses and the "lay person" courses. In just about every single case, it was the teachers who taught the AP/college courses that cared, while the normal teachers just did the same shit different day routine.

I have serious doubts that you actual went to college from the way you talk and act. Unless your class was how to sound like a hill billy. Also have you ever considered that the reason why education is not doing well is because people like you keep making the government take away more and more money from the school system.

At 8/21/12 08:44 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Yes I did. Well, not in High School that much because every non-AP class was a complete fucking cake walk.

In other words, you didn't.

They hate the teachers because the teachers are shitty. They then stop caring. Teacher justifies shittiness because of lack of caring. Cycle continues. Now, sure, if the course is actually hard or some shit, that might be the case, but seriously, the high school, middle school, and elementary school level classes are extremely fucking easy relative to age.

It's not the teacher's job to make the children want to learn!!! THIS IS THE PROBLEM!!! Teachers are there to teach. If they inspire, that's a bonus, but it's not their job. It's the parents' job. Too often the parents don't instill responsibility or love for learning in their kids, so the kids go to school wanting to be coddled and given no work. So when a teacher challenges a student and makes them do work, the student gets mad and bitches to high hell about how the teacher is bad. Teachers are there to merely guide the students. It is up to each student to actually follow that guidance.

Secondly, you claim the teachers of bad courses are bad. There's two things there. First, perhaps the course is designed to be slow and worthless, so the slow and apathetic can keep up. The teacher is teaching less in order to cater to the students. Second, as the non-elite classes get filled with a much much higher proportion of students who have been taught by their parents that school is not important, the teachers are used to working with clients who couldn't give two shits about the product they are being given. Any good person will become worn down by this.

Odd, because the kids who go to college take the harder courses. The ones that have the better teachers that care more.

It feeds off of each other. The kids in the higher course started off with a higher will to learn and a much stronger enthusiasm (before any teacher was ever involved). A class of enthusicastic students can make a terrible teacher seem good. Any teacher when confronted with genuine enthusiasm will exude the same themselves, because they have clients who actually care about what they get out of it.

Likewise, a class of apathetic students can make a great teacher look bad. Any teacher when confronted with such endless apathy will have to fight like crazy to not be worn down by it.

Also, nice elitism there, thinking that people who don't go to college are just lay people whereas your some super duper intellectual for going to college.

When it comes to education. Very rarely do those who care in primary and secondary education not make it to some form of higher education.

I have been in both the "college" level (Seriously, if that shit passes for college level work, then l o fucking l) courses and the "lay person" courses. In just about every single case, it was the teachers who taught the AP/college courses that cared, while the normal teachers just did the same shit different day routine.

Again you're placing the blame in all of the wrong spots. It's the students that make a class, not the teacher.

Anyway, how's about you define what makes a good or bad teacher? You've made this claim that most teachers suck, but you haven't tried to quantify it.

At 8/22/12 12:08 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
Anyway, how's about you define what makes a good or bad teacher? You've made this claim that most teachers suck, but you haven't tried to quantify it.

Well said Camarohusky.

At 8/22/12 11:21 AM, Jmayer20 wrote: I have serious doubts that you actual went to college from the way you talk and act. Unless your class was how to sound like a hill billy. Also have you ever considered that the reason why education is not doing well is because people like you keep making the government take away more and more money from the school system.

You're absolutely right. How somebody talks in a casual manner on an online forum is clearly an indicator of their education or intelligence, and not just, you know, how the people around them have talked. Odd, where did I ever say I want to take money away from education? Well, I guess you could argue that by me being hellbent on firing or not giving raises to teachers who don't perform, but whatever.

At 8/17/12 02:27 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Your mom is retired. By the looks of her salary and pension, my guess is she retired over a decade ago. You'll have a hard time finding many teachers who make that much and have that good a pension nowadays. New teacher salaries have shrunk like crazy, almost to the point where they're making as much now as a new teacher did in the 90s. And that pension? Poof! It's gone.

She retired in 2006. The reason she made that much was that she went back to school and earned a Master's in early childhood education...and didn't stop until she maxed out graduate hours on the career ladder scale.

And guess why the pensions and salaries are shrinking? Teachers are public sector employees! If the tax base shrinks because of recession (which are actually depressions...just renamed not to be so scary sounding)...then the districts have less money to pay teacher's salaries, keep the lights on and provide specialized services such as gifted programs not to mention the extracirricular activities that are essential to a college application these days.

The pensions...reckless. Based upon an irresponsible union and progressive notion that the 1990s gravy train would never end.

THIS is why those programs exist, not for the argument you are making.

Yes and no. That is the purpose for those programs to exist...but it does alleviate some of the pain associated with teaching in a small town.

So, we should dock the pay of any occupation that allows for the children to be cared for without paying for daycare? That's a pretty crappy reason to keep pay low.

I'm not some Scrooge over here counting how much child care costs are and then saying we should deduct that from teacher's salaries. All I'm saying is it is a silver lining for teachers with children. I mean I'll be able to take any kids my second wife and I have to school with me when I go to work. I don't have to drop them off or pick them up...or write a check for before/after school care.

My ex-wife who is a Doctor cannot do this with our daughter.

So I'm saying its a perk.

Either way, even in the light least favorable to teaching it does little to change the general idea. For the amount of work, education, and responsibility we require of our teachers, they are underpaid, and extremely under-respected.

But everyone disrespects them.

* From politicians like Clinton, Bush and Obama who think Washington needs to hold teachers accountable like they are unreliable swindlers taking from the taxpayers?

* Parents who blame teachers for the failings of their children?

* Unions that take dues money from teachers in order to line their pockets while delivering pie-in-the-sky promises that work for about a decade and then implode?

I think the thing that would help teachers out the most would be for everyone to just leave them the fuck alone and stop trying to armchair quarterback them or 'help' them.

At 8/21/12 08:44 PM, RacistBassist wrote:

At 8/21/12 08:35 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Or there's a massive apathy problem where the students hate their teachers because they don't want to do the work it takes to learn.

They hate the teachers because the teachers are shitty. They then stop caring. Teacher justifies shittiness because of lack of caring. Cycle continues. Now, sure, if the course is actually hard or some shit, that might be the case, but seriously, the high school, middle school, and elementary school level classes are extremely fucking easy relative to age.

I kinda wonder if you're both wrong here. It's been 20 years since I was in HS...but from what I remember I didn't care about performing in HS because I didn't have to worry about the roof over my head, where my next meal was coming from and whether or not I had electricity.

I was more concerned about girls and my social life than things like school and I assumed college was a given (I could go to a community college and then transfer to a four year school).

Therefore I wonder if the apathy has shit to do with the accountability of teachers and more to do with the fact that High Schoolers are horny little fuck-machines who are hell-bent on having a good time and rebeling against the authority figures in their lives. (Camaro...I think we kinda agree here, the only difference is I think you think it is a conscious choice to be lazy on the part of students where I think it is just hormone-induced, hedonistic irresponsibility.)

Geesh...you act like most people are responsible adults at this age!

There are a lot of very important and difficult jobs with low salaries, and a lot of not so important, not so difficult jobs with large salaries. Why are teachers or doctors special? And what determines what a job is "worth?" If I'm an education major and I'm willing to take a job with a local school district for 48 thousand dollars a year, fully knowing what I do is more important than what my salary indicates and that I'm going to have to work harder than the money's worth, I know what I'm getting into. I have a college degree, after all.

Don't teachers get a good pension too when they retire?

At 8/23/12 06:34 PM, TheKlown wrote: Don't teachers get a good pension too when they retire?

Hasn't been that way for close to, if not more than, a decade.

At 8/22/12 08:36 PM, TheMason wrote: Therefore I wonder if the apathy has shit to do with the accountability of teachers and more to do with the fact that High Schoolers are horny little fuck-machines who are hell-bent on having a good time and rebeling against the authority figures in their lives. (Camaro...I think we kinda agree here, the only difference is I think you think it is a conscious choice to be lazy on the part of students where I think it is just hormone-induced, hedonistic irresponsibility.)

Geesh...you act like most people are responsible adults at this age!

The thing though is that would be fine, had other countries been experiencing the same success in education. That has not been the case and just the opposite tends to be the fact; other countries surpass the US in education and it's been pretty common knowledge by now. I mean it's not even that our celebrities are stupid either, at least not all of them, Lil Wayne was a straight A student and Emma Watson took a break from acting to finish her English degree. What I'm going to guess is that the emphasis for education isn't there early on, by High School people shouldn't be inspired that should've already happened during Elementary school, that should've also been the time where they learn academic skills.

Although like Camarohusky said, it's parent's not being there for their children, which I attribute to the over work that is brought on by jobs. America has the smallest amount of vacation days/maternity leaves as well as some of the longest hours, parents just simply don't have enough time to be at home and get their children motivated to go to school. This is rather ironic, because schools in America have a shorter calendar than in other countries whereas the jobs force you to spend more time in them.

At 8/23/12 11:12 PM, Warforger wrote: The thing though is that would be fine, had other countries been experiencing the same success in education. That has not been the case and just the opposite tends to be the fact; other countries surpass the US in education and it's been pretty common knowledge by now.

This is as much due to the breakdown of America as a whole than due to the education system or parents specifically. The American dream used to be all about busting your butt, working hard, starting out at the bottom with nothing, but maybe, just maybe, getting ahead and making a better life for your family if you worked hard. You might not be a millionaire by the time you're done, but your children start out ahead of where you started if you work for it, and if they do the same, their children are better off, and so on. The American dream used to be all about working hard and succeeding.

Today, the American dream is all about working as little as possible but still getting decently paid for it. The ideal isn't starting out as an office flunky and working your way up. The ideal is to land a cush job in a cubicle with minimal supervision, where you can surf the internet all day without getting caught, do no real work, and still make enough to pay your rent, eat, and go drinking with your friends on the weekend. The mentality has shifted; today, people will blame the system, saying that it doesn't matter how hard they work because the good old boy network of rich CEOs keeps them down, and they'll never get promoted or get ahead, big companies stop their smaller business ideas from succeeding, and the government's screwed up the economy. If they don't get everything they want out of life, it's never because they didn't work hard enough. It's because the system screwed them. And anybody else who does get most of what they want out of life didn't earn it. They just got lucky or knew the right people from the right circles. That's the mentality today.

When I was a kid, if I failed a math test, I got spanked and grounded. If I got a B, my parents demanded to know what happened and why I screwed up. If I was actually having a hard time, they met with the teacher and asked what they could do to help further my education at home. Today, if a kid fails a math test, the parents meet with the teacher and demand to know why the teacher failed their kid. Why isn't the teacher teaching their kid effectively? And why the heck does the math test their kid failed have all of those paragraph-long word problems? Their kid shouldn't have to be able to read to pass math. The system is unfair and is screwing their kid.

At 8/24/12 10:20 AM, Brae wrote: This is as much due to the breakdown of America as a whole than due to the education system or parents specifically. The American dream used to be all about busting your butt, working hard, starting out at the bottom with nothing, but maybe, just maybe, getting ahead and making a better life for your family if you worked hard.

What does this have to do with education?

Today, the American dream is all about working as little as possible but still getting decently paid for it. The ideal isn't starting out as an office flunky and working your way up. The ideal is to land a cush job in a cubicle with minimal supervision, where you can surf the internet all day without getting caught, do no real work, and still make enough to pay your rent, eat, and go drinking with your friends on the weekend.

If you saw Office Space (which came out when "your generation" was just graduating high school) you'd see this is a total load. Every generation has people who are willing to bust their butt at the bottom and those who will laze regardless of what they're given. So?

The mentality has shifted; today, people will blame the system, saying that it doesn't matter how hard they work because the good old boy network of rich CEOs keeps them down, and they'll never get promoted or get ahead, big companies stop their smaller business ideas from succeeding,

Well, when entire generations of 25-30 year workers, who busted their butt are rewarded with a pink slip just before retirement, it's quite hard to believe that loyalty, skill, or hard work have much to do with success nowadays. Oh, and layoffs are now an exercise in avoiding litigation, NOT protecting good workers. Work has become a commdity, to replace at a moment's notice. Why should we devote our lives and loyalty to a company if they aren't even going to reciprocate a little?

If they don't get everything they want out of life, it's never because they didn't work hard enough.

People always blamed this, well sane, non-neurotic people, that is. Everyone who gets laid off blames the system. Some will temporarily blame themselves, but realize they busted their butt and nothing was better. There will only be a few who feel they didn't work hard enough, but these are the people that fear they will be fired when their manager doesn't have time to talk to them. The average person will realize exactly what happened: they got laid off. It will suck for a while, but they'll turn right back around and look for a new job.

When I was a kid, if I failed a math test, I got spanked and grounded. If I got a B, my parents demanded to know what happened and why I screwed up. If I was actually having a hard time, they met with the teacher and asked what they could do to help further my education at home.

It's not a "back then" v. "now" issue. It's a good parent v. bad parent issue. The current trend is the "my child should be my friend" style parenting which leads to the bad parenting regarding education.

Good teachers matter. Teachers influence the students with more than just higher grades and more academic knowledge; morals can be attained by respectable teachers. A Harvard study found that an "increase in teacher quality in a single grade" are "more likely to attend college and save for retirement, and less likely to have children when teenagers." Some teachers certainly accept tenure and low pay, and still manage a smirk at the end of the day. Others enjoy teaching and rely on their partner for the majority of income--they'll teach regardless of increase of pay. Most teachers apply moderate effort to their students for moderate pay. Many of these teachers would gladly accept an increased income due to performance.

"Tenure's fundamental flaw is that it puts job security ahead of student achievement. While there are many great teachers, the tenure system protects poor ones and we cannot afford to 'waste a year' of a kid's schooling. However, leaving teachers' job security up to the whims of administrators and politicians is unacceptable, too. We need to replace tenure with a fair system of evaluation that includes input from fellow teachers, supervisors, and most especially, parents."

That fair system of evaluation should base a teacher's income on performance. Higher performance yields higher pay, and vice versa. Merit-based pay rewards the best instructors and weeds out the cynical, burned out teachers that have coasted on tenure for far too long.

In an effort to get the best results, teachers will seek out modern teaching technologies involving computer-based training, Internet podcasts, iPad apps, etc. Teachers will be motivated to try new approaches and students will use this training for PowerPoints, presentations and other things necessary in college.

"There is no such thing as a bad student, only a bad teacher." Students cannot be expected to offer full potential when teachers themselves lack motivation and performance. A program in Florida provides bonuses to teachers who succeed in helping students to pass AP exams. This program has led to dramatic increases in minority students passing AP exams. A similar project in Dallas also succeeded in increasing AP passing rates.

In conclusion, we need to move away from the uniform approach of teacher pay that predominates in American education. These performance-based pay strategies offer a promising alternative.

Synopsis: some teachers are not paid enough, others don't deserve to be a teacher. Replacing tenure and average income with authoritative evaluation and pay on performance is a much more effective and reliable standard to promote teachers' salary, teaching abilities and the students' knowledge and performance.

Teachers should not be compared to doctors. As Camaro said, doctors have more education, have higher stakes, perform much more difficult tasks and deserve higher pay than teachers. I won't bother with quasi-rebuttals between teachers and doctors. Deserving teachers should be paid more, period.

Sources: http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/enhanci ng_teacher_incentives.pdf
http://teachertenure.procon.org/
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/teacher_merit_pay.htm
http://blog.heritage.org/2008/10/29/performance-based-pay-fo r-education/