Teacher Unions and Tenure

[Forte]

It's no secret that the public school system, despite it being the best in the world 50-60 years past, is turning out to be a failing system. There hasn't been a 100% backed reason as to why this decline is/has been occurring, but there seems to be a lot of blame directed at the teachers and more specifically the numerous teacher unions. The fact of the matter is that once a teacher is tenured, which normally takes about 2 years, they are nearly impossible to dispose of based on the level of quality they teach.

So if this truly is a main contributor to the failing of our public school systems, how do we fix it? Some would say that we could eliminate tenure all together. However, then you are subjugating even the good teachers to being laid off due to budget decreases, or even worse, for arbitrary political reasons. Another idea is to increase the amount of time before a teacher is granted tenure, but once again you are given the likely possibility that many teachers will be let go simply due to budget cuts.

Michelle Rhee, former chancellor of public schools in Washington D.C. proposed an idea a few years back to make the best of both worlds by giving teachers two options: (1) a teacher could keep their tenure and receive a modest increase in salary, or (2) give up tenure but also have the opportunity to receive higher compensation for better results (in some cases, up to six figures).

What do you think? Could any of these possibly fix the system in your eyes? If not, what would you suggest may help us turn around the public school systems for current and future generations?

[Forte]

Also, I forgot to mention, when Michelle Rhee proposed this idea, the teachers' union would not even vote on it as they are opposed to dividing individual teachers.

[Camarohusky]

While this seems like a huge problem, it actually is nothing but a red herring.

Sure, there are some bad teachers out there. I am reluctant to give out such criticism and even I would say a few (like maybe 2-3 from K-JD) were just plain bad. Even if the number was as high as 10% of teachers being flat out inneffective it wouldn't account for our problem. The small amount of cases where bad teachers are protected by the union are bad, but those are few and far between seeing the mass of teachers we actually have. 10 or so of these cases a year out of well over a million techers is hardly what I'd consider a problem.

The real issue is what we ask of our teachers. We ask of them to have advanced degrees, yet to work for wages that many high school grads would turn down. We ask for them to parent our children for 6 hours a day. We ask them to inspire our children. We ask them to discipline our children. Finally, we ask them to teach our children.

Teachers should only have one job: to teach. The parents should be handling the discipline, the prenting, and the inspiration. Until we as a society teach our kids to want to learn, no teacher will be able to have a good amount of success teaching.

It's all about personal responsibility. Parents need to take it for raising their children. Our children need to be taught to take resonsibility for themselves. Right now, the children don't take responsibility for anything, and the parents punted their duties long ago.

I especially dislike emphasizing the red herrings. The problem with our education is not with the teachers or the system. The system has been able to produce a world class top end of student. The best and brightest of our public school system rival the best nd brightest from any private system and any other country. The problem lies with society. The difference between the few that succeed in public school and the majority who flounder is moivation. Focusing on the educational system distracts us from the real problem.

[morefngdbs]

I have a brother who is a teacher.
He had no choice but to leave Nova Scotia, for a foreign country when they cut teacher positions in this Province.
He was teaching here for over 2 years & was still a substitute teacher , full time jobs being few & far between. Never the less he was working almost fulltime.
WHen the cuts happened, Substitutes were where the teachers Union dropped the ax first & hardest. All that was avaialble became sick leave replacement & so he left Canada.

WHen he came home after his first school year in South Korea, he was still in a state of shock over the difference in Canadian student behaviour & that of Korea's.

THere teachers are held in high reguard, schooling isn't seen as a burden one must suffer through. HE told me for every student who wanted to learn in Canada especially in the Junior & Senior high levels was offset by a factor of 5 or greater of those who didn't give a shit.
WHere in Korea it was 100% fullon all the time.

Perhap's as in my brothers observations, attitude of the student(s) plays a more substantial role than is normally talked about.

[BrianEtrius]

At 7/13/12 07:27 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Perhap's as in my brothers observations, attitude of the student(s) plays a more substantial role than is normally talked about.

True and there's also the cultural aspect of education as well, which is similar to the point Camaro is trying to make. In the United States at least (i can't speak for Canada, perhaps you can describe that) education is not seen as privIlege, rather almost mandatory. Opposed to other countries where public school systems are not as prominate, American children don't realize in some regard how lucky they are and take it for granted. And, at the same time, like Camaro said, we're hurting our own teachers (and thus future educators and people who shape education policies) by making teaching a less lucrative position, not to mention God knows what other hurdlles we as a country put teachers through. It's funny, as a society as a whole we value education, but we don't value the educators and we certainly don't realize how lucky we are, despite the problems now.

[Warforger]

The main problem tends to be the bar that is set for teachers, to them if every student just gets the bare minimum passing grade they're fine, this means that students which can go farther are neglected as they don't need help and that teachers have to spend all their time and energy on the bottom portion of students. While parents may ask alot of teachers it's because they themselves don't have enough time and energy leftover to deal with their kids, I mean for god's sake our maternity leave is at best 6 weeks if you're in California, most countries it's at least a couple months. That's not even mentioning the long work hours people do to get more money and in a culture which working less hours means you're lazy. With such an environment such horrible side effects are inevitable, it also explains the whole obesity problem and not having enough time to exercise. That should be the first problem before taking on the rest of the system.

Although I don't agree with Cam's low view of teaching as a job, money isn't everything and for one they have alot more free time than most other professions. The main thing is that teaching is one of the most satisfying jobs in the country, ranking 2nd right behind surgeon. This is because they actually enjoy their job and have some break rather than the scientist who can say they make more money but at the end of the day rarely get to use it and ends up being incredibly miserable (all the while looking down on teachers for having a smaller pay).

[Camarohusky]

At 7/13/12 04:39 PM, Warforger wrote: Although I don't agree with Cam's low view of teaching as a job, money isn't everything and for one they have alot more free time than most other professions.

Idon't think of teaching as low job, but I'll talk about that later. Also, just beause teacher have less "lited" hours doesn't mean they work less. Homework and tests don't write and grade themselves. Lessons plans don't make themselves. If anything, teaching is more flexible, not less work.

The main thing is that teaching is one of the most satisfying jobs in the country, ranking 2nd right behind surgeon.

This is the only thing keeping our educational system from completely collapsing.

This is because they actually enjoy their job and have some break rather than the scientist who can say they make more money but at the end of the day rarely get to use it and ends up being incredibly miserable (all the while looking down on teachers for having a smaller pay).

You proved my prior point perfectly here. I never said Teaching was a low job, rather they get shit on from all directions. The parents ask too much nd are never happy. The students dislike and disrespect teachers. Other people with equal education look down on teachers. The schools don't pay teachers anywhere close to their value. Society doesn't care about teachers. For as much work and education involved, teachers get the shortest possible end of the stick.

[morefngdbs]

At 7/13/12 07:41 PM, Camarohusky wrote: I never said Teaching was a low job, rather they get shit on from all directions. The parents ask too much nd are never happy. The students dislike and disrespect teachers. Other people with equal education look down on teachers. The schools don't pay teachers anywhere close to their value. Society doesn't care about teachers. For as much work and education involved, teachers get the shortest possible end of the stick.

;;;;
Carmohuskey & I rarely agree, & its not just because of my Brother that I say this, we hear it all the time here in Canada, teachers don't get the respect they deserve.
I personally don't understand why that is, while I was in school if a teacher was actually teaching us something i was attentive & did my best , having high 90's marks can be used as an indicator i was paying attention. WHen I got intot he job market & training was availabvle , even though the more experienced guy's put it down & said things like fall arrest & zoom booms slowed things down & were too expensive & would never catch on 20 years ago...well look at industry now !
ANyone who is willing to teach me or reteach something (like my first aid course every 2 years) is worth taking the time to pay attention to...you will learn something, there is the new defib courses offered , & we have defibulators appearing on more & more job sites.
Fall arrest & how to deal with people who have been suspended in harness for more than a few minutes (suspension trauma)...one time the first thing doen was to lay them down when rescued & they often died, even though their harness saved them from a killing fall !
Now we know keep them upright, walk them if they can stand !

Teaching you new things/information should be valued, it may not be the same as learnign it from your own mistakes...but that is the point someone else has gone through it, figured it out & instead of everyone having to repeat those mistakes. They are sharing the wisdom etc with you...how can you dis that ?