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At 6/29/12 06:19 AM, Memorize wrote: Funny when the gun control crowd is defending a Government's sell of AR's to Mexican Cartels.

Just like it's funny when those who usually defend anti-crime initiatives, no matter how far fetched, are up in arms over this run of the mill tactics, or how they completely abandon their anti-crime stance when gun control is involved.

Memzy, you have no ground to call anyone a hypocrite. You are the guiltiest one here.

At 6/29/12 05:48 AM, homor wrote: Looks like things aren't going too well for Eric Holder. Now he's been held in Contempt of Congress.

About a hundred democrats refused to vote and walked out. Leaving the pull at 255 for to 67 against.

That's because a no vote just might hurt their standing with their constituents. Last thing you wanna do for your reelection campaign is find a reason to either

A. turn the Ignorant (aka moderates) away from voting for you, or
B. energizing the opposition base.
Those who did vote know, more or less know they can get away with most anything short of banging a hooker in public while hitting a bong and making anti Obama jokes... some of them could even get away with that potentially.

The Charges are being forwarded to Ronald Machen, the US attorney for the District of Columbia, to see whether or not he'll face criminal charges for contempt as well.

I feel sorry for this poor guy. If you decided to go ahead with the charges, he's gonna piss Obama off. if he doesn't, he's gonna piss Congress off. It's like being stuck on the edge of a cliff with a horde of barbarians behind you. do you jump off the cliff, or do you let the barbarians get you?

I'm gonna let you guys make up your own minds on this. Is this just a political power grab by Republicans, or is this a major sign of corruption from the White House? Who do you think is in the right here?

I think it's politics. there is no right or wrong in politics. it's all a power struggle that's been going on since Uggmetuff led his band of cavemen out of the primordial soup, then got bashed in the head with a rock by Gahmetuffa.

If the shoes were on the other feet, we'd have the same exact battle, except with the opposite sides saying the same thing.

My gut tells me that this is a mistake on the part of Republicans. One of the reasons we have a hyperpartisan DC at the moment is due to the Impeachment of President Clinton in the late '90s. While not as high profile as a president...the decision to hold Holder in contempt is unprecedented. So we are in uncharted waters. But three things come to mind:

* Such a drastic powerplay could look assholish on the part of congressional Republicans who do not poll high in opinion polls and a lot of the blame for partisan gridlock/games falls on them. So the Democrats who refused to participate in the "Contempt of Congress" vote may look principled.

* Race is a factor in this election and the whole "Republicans hate Obama b/c he's black" finds support with Obama's base. So with Holder being black...I think Congressional Republicans are playing with racial fire.

* Holder is striking back with the defense that this program started under Bush and his DoJ ended it. So, for Republicans, they're unnecessarily bringing back a looser for them.

At 6/18/12 10:48 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 6/18/12 07:38 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: I have a couple dozen AP rounds but they cost quite a bit even for .9MM or 5.56 NATO.

Serious question to what appears to be a gun enthusiast:

Is there any legitimate* need for AP rounds other than for their collectible/nostalgia value?

* by legitimate, I mean civilian use other than to hurt others or commit criminal acts.

If I may weigh in, as a gun enthusiast...

1) Increasing the availability and decreasing the cost of AP bullets may actually be a good thing. See the thing about AP rounds is they have a whole lot of penetrating power...but very little killing power. Now Camaro...I know you already said the guys in N. Hollywood couldn't hit shit. But they did manage to hit 18ppl and the reason those ppl survived is that they were using military grad FMJ and AP ammo. Thus their bullets made small holes going in...traveled straight...and exited through a hole barely bigger than the entry wound.
--> Also, to dovetail off of this, is most AP are chambered in intermediate caliburs (assault rifles) and high-powered caliburs (hunting rifles). Most cop ballistic armor is only rated to stop pistol rounds...so removing every AP bullet from the street would have virtually zero effect and probably would not save a life. But by forcing criminals to buy hunting and home defense rounds...it could cost more lives.

2) The other problem I have with efforts to prohibit AP rounds is some pro-gun control inividuals lump military Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) rounds into the AP category b/c they tend to have more AP properties than hunting (killing) properties. There are several reasons this is bad.
--> The aforementioned reason that having a penetrating round is safer than a hunting round.
--> It is an emotional argument that is intellectually vacuous by claiming that military rounds are only designed to kill. The ballistic science says otherwise: military rounds are designed to wound while hunting rounds are designed to kill. Also, aside from sniper rifles (which are modified hunting rifles over 80% of the time) and true machine guns (something entirely different from an assault rifle despite popular belief), most military small arms caliburs are not high powered.
--> Military surplus ammo is cheap, often costing less than $1/rd (I can get Russian AK ammo for $5 @ Walmart for 20 rds), which means I can shoot more. This makes me more accurate which helps me more humanely kill a deer (and yes, with a 5 round magazine I can hunt deer in Missouri with an AK-47...which is more safe than taking a bolt action high powered traditional hunting rifle) and, God forbid, I ever have to fire a weapon in self-defense I hit who I'm aiming at and not someone innocent.

But there is another question this discussion begs...

Besides making a 'self-evident' assumption that AP (and by extension military rounds) are good for nothing more than hurting others or criminal acts:

A) In what way are AP/military rounds good or useful or practical in the commission of criminal acts?
B) Why should the government put any sort of restriction (up to and including a full ban) on AP and military rounds?

who didn't see that one coming?

I mean, seriously, That's like having the board of directors at a corporation vote on whether the board of directors gets replaced.

If you expected otherwise, you need to learn politics better. You can hope something happens, but at the end of the day, politics is politics.

At 6/29/12 11:42 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

Just like it's funny when those who usually defend anti-crime initiatives, no matter how far fetched, are up in arms over this run of the mill tactics, or how they completely abandon their anti-crime stance when gun control is involved.

Except that I've never taken such stances, unlike you.

My God, you make Biden look intelligent.

At 6/29/12 05:25 PM, TheMason wrote: * Race is a factor in this election and the whole "Republicans hate Obama b/c he's black" finds support with Obama's base. So with Holder being black...I think Congressional Republicans are playing with racial fire.

I think you severely underestimate the average intelligence of an Obama supporter.

Even they aren't dumb enough to think something like this has anything to do with race.

At 6/30/12 01:46 AM, Memorize wrote: Except that I've never taken such stances, unlike you.

Prove it. Come on. Back up your lip flapping with intelligence (for the first time).

My God, you make Biden look intelligent.

Biden is a pretty intelligent guy. Perhaps you are dumb enough think getting a JD is easy.

At 6/30/12 03:46 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Prove it. Come on. Back up your lip flapping with intelligence (for the first time).

Not until you prove it first.

After all, you're the one who made the accusation against me in the first place, all without any evidence.

lolz

Biden is a pretty intelligent guy. Perhaps you are dumb enough think getting a JD is easy.

Being forced out of running for the presidency due to PLAGIARISM.
Telling a guy in a wheel-chair to stand up.
Saying that the President has a "big stick" without realizing how funny that sounds.
Calling the word "JOBS" a 3-letter word.

Yeah, he's a real beacon of intelligence.

At 7/3/12 12:06 AM, Memorize wrote:

At 6/30/12 03:46 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Biden is a pretty intelligent guy. Perhaps you are dumb enough think getting a JD is easy.

Being forced out of running for the presidency due to PLAGIARISM.
Telling a guy in a wheel-chair to stand up.
Saying that the President has a "big stick" without realizing how funny that sounds.
Calling the word "JOBS" a 3-letter word.

Yeah, he's a real beacon of intelligence.

I love Biden, he makes getting up in the morning easier, knowing he's 2nd in line of succession.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNzfyj8DamQ&feature=plcp

Is Sheila Jackson Lee the real racist? She is claiming the only reason Eric Holder is being investigated is because he is black.

Usually people who play the race-card have a little racial tensions themselves. How can someone as ignorant as her be in congress?

At 7/3/12 06:06 PM, TheKlown wrote: She is claiming the only reason Eric Holder is being investigated is because he is black.

The Eric Holder issue has, at most, little to do with race. What it's really about is an attempt to get at Obama during an election year, whilst conveniently forgetting Bush's similar acts, along with the fact that Congress isn't allowed to get the document anyway, along with the fact that Fast & Furious was a run of the mill operation that failed.

Political power play. Nothing else.

At 7/3/12 06:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: whilst conveniently forgetting Bush's similar acts,

Bush's operation didn't have a body count, and they stopped it before it really even began once they realized "holy shit, this is a fucking terrible idea.

along with the fact that Fast & Furious was a run of the mill operation that failed.

Three hundred people dead (including a FEDERAL FUCKING AGENT) isn't a "run of the mill operation that failed."

Don't be an idiot. You need to stop worshiping Obama and start thinking objectively.

At 7/6/12 08:00 PM, homor wrote: Bush's operation didn't have a body count, and they stopped it before it really even began once they realized "holy shit, this is a fucking terrible idea.

Bush's problems only led to indefinite detnetion of people with no opportunity to hold the government to its case. They only nearly outed a large chunk of active CIA agents.

Reagan's problems only led to the murder of thousands of Nicaraguan civilians.

Three hundred people dead (including a FEDERAL FUCKING AGENT) isn't a "run of the mill operation that failed."

They were killed by a cartel who would have had weapons to kill them anyway. This sort of operation IS a run of the mill operation. You sell illicit material to a person hoping that in the transaction you can either build a case against the direct purchaser, bring the purchaser in and flip them, or just see if you can figure out where they go so you can assess a plan of action to take the system down, among numerous other reasons. It's nothing new.

Don't be an idiot. You need to stop worshiping Obama and start thinking objectively.

Stop blindly hating Obama and see this for what it is, a simple political game to try and make Obama look bad on the eve on what looks to be a close election. Nothing about the actions here are egregious, improper, or any worse than what other Presidents have done with complete impunity. Sure, they're not pretty, but really, when has a President's record been sqeuaky clean when it comes to dealing with dirty criminals like these?

The ones who need to be objective are the ones who can't see that this is nothing more than a very melodramatic political game.

At 7/6/12 09:33 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Bush's problems only led to indefinite detnetion of people with no opportunity to hold the government to its case. They only nearly outed a large chunk of active CIA agents.

Even though Obama claims to hold the same power.

Reagan's problems only led to the murder of thousands of Nicaraguan civilians.

At least he had the sense to NOT get the military involved to such an extent as our current idiot president and last retarded one.

They were killed by a cartel who would have had weapons to kill them anyway. This sort of operation IS a run of the mill operation. You sell illicit material to a person hoping that in the transaction you can either build a case against the direct purchaser, bring the purchaser in and flip them, or just see if you can figure out where they go so you can assess a plan of action to take the system down, among numerous other reasons. It's nothing new.

Except that whole "not track the guns" thing that's sort of required.

Stop blindly hating Obama and see this for what it is, a simple political game to try and make Obama look bad on the eve on what looks to be a close election.

Who the fuck cares if it is?

It's no different than when Bush was President and the Republicans used the same excuse to protect his ass that the Democrats are using now.

But hey, at least no one was killed when all Bush did was fire a few attorneys.

And on top of that, no one was going after Obama until AFTER he consciously declared Executive Order.

The ones who need to be objective are the ones who can't see that this is nothing more than a very melodramatic political game.

Like your stupid ass for example.

At 7/6/12 09:33 PM, Camarohusky wrote: They were killed by a cartel who would have had weapons to kill them anyway.

Whoa whoa whoa. Back the fuck up, BULLSHIT. You stop that bullshit right now.

That's like if Bush sold ballistic missiles to an Iraqi Militia, they blow up a village full of civilians, and then Bush said "They already had missiles, they would've blown that village up too." That's like handing car keys to a drunk driver, he runs over a crowd of people, and you say "he had a set of spare keys in his pocket, he was going to drive no matter what i did." That's like giving a drug dealer directions to a playground, a bunch of kids overdose, and then you say "he was going to find it eventually, it was only two blocks away."

Let me make myself explicitly clear, it does not fucking matter what "could" have happened or if they already had the ability. It doesn't change the fact that you INADVERTENTLY HELPED THEM FUCKING DO IT. What "could" have happened is totally irrelevant, if you fucking help someone commit a crime, even they already had the ability to, YOU STILL FUCKING HELPED THEM.

This sort of operation IS a run of the mill operation.

It's not "run of the mill" for hundreds of people to die from this sort of shit. In most cases, people are arrested before the weapons can used, and if not someone loses a job or goes to jail. But hey, for shits and giggles, let's just assume that this sort of thing is run of the mill.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY. In fact, it's make it even less okay. If this is a regular thing that politicians do and sign off on all the time, they all deserve to be locked up.

Nothing about the actions here are egregious, improper, or any worse than what other Presidents have done with complete impunity.

Three hundred people, including American citizens and a federal agent, are all dead, and you don't call that egregious or improper?

Sure, they're not pretty, but really, when has a President's record been sqeuaky clean when it comes to dealing with dirty criminals like these?

I wish you were born eighty years ago, you would've made a fucking awesome speech writer for Nixon.

At 7/7/12 07:50 PM, homor wrote: Blah blah blah, I have been spoon fed Republican crap and I ask for more because I don't like Obama. Blah blah blah

You're not getting it. My issue isn't that the operation wasn't slightly stupid or just a massive fuck up. My issue is the giant hullablaoo the Republicans are pulling over what amounts to spilled milk in terms of Executive misconduct.

And YES, the providing of some illicit substance to an illegal group is VERY routine. This one definitely failed, but the idea isn't radical. The basis of the operation was very normal when it comes to fighting organized crime. At best it was handled extremely poorly. I contend that there have been numerous actions of other Presidents that, although didn't end up as bad, had much much more seedy intentions.

Impeachment is for misconduct, not mistake. This was a mistake. The impeachment is nothing but a political game to provide ammo for those who want to attack the Administration. Hell, as far as mistakes go, this one was fairly minor compared to one that happened about 10 years ago.

At 7/7/12 08:46 PM, Camarohusky wrote: You're not getting it.

You actively ignored every single thing i said to you and instead chose to respond to a strawman argument you created.

Go fuck yourself.

My issue isn't that the operation wasn't slightly stupid or just a massive fuck up. My issue is the giant hullablaoo the Republicans are pulling over what amounts to spilled milk in terms of Executive misconduct.

So you admit the operation was stupid and a massive fuckup, yet at the same time you're claiming it's all just a "giant hullabaloo"? You think three hundred dead people amounts to "spilled milk"? Are you fucking kidding me? Am i getting trolled?

Yeah, i'm getting trolled. Must be.

I'm gonna do what both Bush and your dad should have done and pull out.

Holder should be shot in the head by a shotgun. That is all I have to say.

At 7/7/12 11:51 PM, homor wrote: So you admit the operation was stupid and a massive fuckup, yet at the same time you're claiming it's all just a "giant hullabaloo"? You think three hundred dead people amounts to "spilled milk"?

Again, you're not getting it. Yes, the outcome was bad. But, as you described, this was a fuck up. That's it. However, you're treating this as if there was intent to have people killed. You're treating this as if the country was lied to in order to go to war resulting in the death of thousands. You're treating this as if weapons were intentionally sold to guerillas resulting in the deaths of thousands. Guess what? It was not. Thiswas a normal style of operation that had extremely negligent oversight.

Seeing as the two examples of worse things I showed above have beendone by previus President with malice to no contept, this one should not have contempt either.

Are you fucking kidding me? Am i getting trolled?
Yeah, i'm getting trolled. Must be.

Nope. You're just having trouble adjusting to your hypocrisy.

At 7/9/12 08:28 PM, Camarohusky wrote: However, you're treating this as if there was intent to have people killed.

You're twisting my words. I never said the intent was to have people killed, i said this was a horrible idea and was responsible for getting people killed. When you sell weapons to guerrilla groups, lose track of the weapons, and then get hundreds of people killed, it doesn't matter what the intention was, you fucked up royal and it's time to face the legal consequences for your actions.

This was a normal style of operation that had extremely negligent oversight.

Exactly, that's the problem. Somebody deserves to go to jail or at least be forced to step down from their position from this, this is a serious situation. None of this would be worthy of a debate is Holder wasn't refusing to disclose information about this case, to the point where he clearly lied while under oath and had the President invoke executive privilege.

It's incredibly clear from Holder's actions and decisions that he was responsible for the failure of this operation, and he's try to cover his own ass.

Camaro there is a difference between a run of the mill operation that failed and a run of the mill operation that failed because the people in charge were negligent idiots

its even more stupid that they would screw this up so badly when the stakes were so high

Impeachment is a rare thing. So rare that if someone is not in Congress and mentions that an officialshould be impeached, they are probably an ignorant fool whose political opinions are not worth counting outside an election.

At 7/16/12 03:58 PM, GoodFish wrote: Impeachment is a rare thing. So rare that if someone is not in Congress and mentions that an officialshould be impeached, they are probably an ignorant fool whose political opinions are not worth counting outside an election.

true, but a president can be impeached for anything. it's just an accusation of a wrongdoing. if the republicans control both the senate and the house, and they have enough votes to pull it off, what's stopping them? ethics? (lol)

At 7/16/12 04:14 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 7/16/12 03:58 PM, GoodFish wrote: Impeachment is a rare thing. So rare that if someone is not in Congress and mentions that an officialshould be impeached, they are probably an ignorant fool whose political opinions are not worth counting outside an election.

true, but a president can be impeached for anything. it's just an accusation of a wrongdoing. if the republicans control both the senate and the house, and they have enough votes to pull it off, what's stopping them? ethics? (lol)

Democrats have 51 to Republicans 47 in the Senate
Republicans have 242 to Democrats 193 in the House

That isn't a supermajority, and if they try to Impeach the President (loooooool), with the amount of public knowledge on the matter (2008, continuation of Bush gunwalking), it will just look like an electioneering tactic, which is worse than admitting they let it slide during another election cycle.

Personal opinion? Fire anyone involved, dismantle and reassemble the ATF, send troops to occupy Mexico and eliminate the Cartels.

Criminally negligent.
In contempt.
Covering-up wrongdoing with executive privilege in violation of the law.

Any of you clowns seriously defending the DoJ on this should realize the American people wouldn't know squat about any of this if it weren't for whistleblowers within the FBI, DEA and ATF.

The Op was criminally flawed.
The AG lied under oath multiple times.
The president attempted to use his power to further bury the deeds from necessary Congressional oversight.

It's sick how some of you brush this off as election-year politics. Wrong is wrong, and your excuses (including race-baiting) do you no honor.

Fuck off.

At 8/14/12 06:50 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Darrell Issa: House Filing Suit Against Eric Holder

LOL someone's in trouble.

Not that kind of lawsuit.

At 7/3/12 12:06 AM, Memorize wrote: Being forced out of running for the presidency due to PLAGIARISM.
Telling a guy in a wheel-chair to stand up.
Calling the word "JOBS" a 3-letter word.

Yeah, he's a real beacon of intelligence.

Well yah, people have a couple of minor mess ups, everyone does. It just means they're human, I mean George Bush Senior puked on the Japanese Prime Minister after all that doesn't mean he thinks it's ok.

Saying that the President has a "big stick" without realizing how funny that sounds.

Wow, it's amazing how you call the Vice President of the United States retarded and yet haven't passed a high school US history course.