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Ways to improve the Audio Portal?

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midimachine
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-28 12:11:29 Reply

At 6/27/13 02:27 PM, NikeTheSword wrote: What would be the downside of forcing a review when voting 0-1?
<insert personal drama about zero-bombing here>

because not every 0-1 vote is a bomb, and when you genuinely think something is that bad it's a waste of your time to spend any amount of time writing to the author for any reason.

any review accompanying a 0 vote is just going to be useless vitriol, and the exceptions are almost invariably going to be met with "omg ur wrong my music is da best fuck you".

a captcha for 0 votes is probably a better solution. but i'm still opposed to that, on principle.


p.s. i am gay

Sundans
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-28 14:26:20 Reply

At 6/28/13 12:11 PM, midimachine wrote:
At 6/27/13 02:27 PM, NikeTheSword wrote: What would be the downside of forcing a review when voting 0-1?
<insert personal drama about zero-bombing here>
because not every 0-1 vote is a bomb, and when you genuinely think something is that bad it's a waste of your time to spend any amount of time writing to the author for any reason.

any review accompanying a 0 vote is just going to be useless vitriol, and the exceptions are almost invariably going to be met with "omg ur wrong my music is da best fuck you".

a captcha for 0 votes is probably a better solution. but i'm still opposed to that, on principle.

If the individual giving such a low rating for it cannot justify his or her rating, then she should not be rating it. If the producer happens to reply to reviews like that, then the artist will not maintain any viewership. Simple as that.


[✖] Play a live show. | [✖] Sell music.
[✔] Sound design for games. | [✔] Produce an OST for film. | [✔] Get creepy fans. | [✔] Get awesome fans.
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CapnCoconuts
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-28 16:36:37 Reply

Hmm... ways to improve the Audio Portal...

1) Consider allowing some flexibility in licensing (see my thread about this).
2) Let votes on audio give experience like votes on games and movies.
3) There doesn't seem to be a Daily Feature or other awards for audio. Having those would be much appreciated.


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midimachine
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-28 23:54:00 Reply

At 6/28/13 02:26 PM, Sundans wrote: If the individual giving such a low rating for it cannot justify his or her rating, then she should not be rating it.

elaborate. what is it about a low score that inherently warrants justification? does a high rating warrant similar validation? maybe you would like all scores to be accompanied with a review, but then you'll just end up with a lot of junk reviews or people not voting at all. believe me, the AP does not need an even lower signal to noise ratio with reviews.

besides, in the case of a low score i think keeping your justification to yourself is far more polite. like i said, most reviews accompanying a genuine 0 are not going to be helpful.

If the producer happens to reply to reviews like that, then the artist will not maintain any viewership. Simple as that.

people who make genuinely shitty music generally have difficulty maintaining viewership anyway.

the ones who don't will have a sycophantic following who'll respond to low-scoring reviews in exactly the same way as the author. i won't name names.


p.s. i am gay

Sundans
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-29 11:10:10 Reply

At 6/28/13 11:54 PM, midimachine wrote:
At 6/28/13 02:26 PM, Sundans wrote: If the individual giving such a low rating for it cannot justify his or her rating, then she should not be rating it.
elaborate. what is it about a low score that inherently warrants justification? does a high rating warrant similar validation? maybe you would like all scores to be accompanied with a review, but then you'll just end up with a lot of junk reviews or people not voting at all. believe me, the AP does not need an even lower signal to noise ratio with reviews.

besides, in the case of a low score i think keeping your justification to yourself is far more polite. like i said, most reviews accompanying a genuine 0 are not going to be helpful.

If the producer happens to reply to reviews like that, then the artist will not maintain any viewership. Simple as that.
people who make genuinely shitty music generally have difficulty maintaining viewership anyway.

the ones who don't will have a sycophantic following who'll respond to low-scoring reviews in exactly the same way as the author. i won't name names.

Yes, any judgement requires justification. If you are willing to persist in your cynical outlook, then the Audio Portal is screwed either way. You either have artists that purposely 0-bomb music, with no justification, for the purpose of forwarding their tracks to the front, or you make the few reviews and ratings that will be given out [i]mean[/i] something. Which is better? Constructive criticism or a dirty popularity contest?

A viewer who rates it 0 should explain why it is rated 0. Was the mixing poorly done? How could the artist improve on it? Was the mastering badly executed? How can the artist better the rendering quality? Was it repetitive? How does one add variation? If the rater has absolutely no suggestions or justification to assist the author of the track, they should not say, or rate anything at all. This is basic etiquette.

Yes, and if the artist who makes poorly-rated music reacts in a hostile way, they will definitely not improve either. Reviews are for the artist to learn about what they did wrong and what they did right. We do not have a large following, at all, and yet we like to hear what listeners have to say so we can improve. Neither one of us (Sundans) are hostile towards constructive criticism. If any artist's fans happen to be so entirely engrossed in their enjoyment of the music that they find it their duty to respond to negative reviews, that is their prerogative. I am speaking about author-reviewer interaction.


[✖] Play a live show. | [✖] Sell music.
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midimachine
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-29 12:35:24 Reply

sorry, you're just listing the things that make a thorough review and telling me i should do them just because it's "basic etiquette". if i rate something with 5 do you think i'm bound by etiquette to write an essay about why i rated it so highly? i'm not cynical of the AP, i'm cynical of people. if you seriously think forcing people to review for any reason will increase the quality of reviews then you're just naive.

besides, you're not even talking about reviews now. you're demanding critcal analysis, and most audio portal users are casual listeners and production beginners who aren't capable of providing the kinds of suggestions and assistance you're demanding from them. speaking of prerogatives, you are not entitled to reviews or constructive criticism just for having made something; nobody owes it to you to review and analyse your works.

for what it's worth, my suggestion for the AP has always been to remove the charts altogether, thereby removing the incentive to vote dishonestly. apparently this would mean people would get less exposure and in turn less meaningless pats on the back for producing mediocre work, so this idea is not very popular!


p.s. i am gay

TacoMilagroIII
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-29 17:16:40 Reply

I've seen a lot of people complaining about the rating system. I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but the entirety of the internet outside of Newgrounds has compressed votes down into a simple like, dislike, or ignore. Make it where people can do that and only vote once, and get rid of the numbers. Having a precise score like that creates competitive mindsets, and music is an art, not a game. When you make it a game, that's when the cheaters and the sore losers and everything in between start coming out in people.

midimachine
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-29 19:58:23 Reply

At 6/29/13 05:16 PM, TacoMilagroIII wrote: I've seen a lot of people complaining about the rating system. I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but the entirety of the internet outside of Newgrounds has compressed votes down into a simple like, dislike, or ignore. Make it where people can do that and only vote once, and get rid of the numbers. Having a precise score like that creates competitive mindsets, and music is an art, not a game. When you make it a game, that's when the cheaters and the sore losers and everything in between start coming out in people.

i like the idea of likes (haw haw) but i dunno about dislikes
actually i think it might be okay if it was a once only thing. although again i think it's the existence of top score charts that makes people want to cheat the system and not the scores themselves, as well as the misconception that the charts are the only source of exposure on the site.


p.s. i am gay

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-30 03:35:33 Reply

I would love the removal of the 1-5 voting system and the charts.
Here is my idea for a replacement.
I would rather have a like, dislike, playlist and comment system. Everybody on the website would be able to see everybody's likes and dislikes and playlists by visting a user's profile. You would be able to discover new songs and artists by looking at other people's profiles. I think this would make newgrounds a more social website. It would also be better because there would be no more 0 voters! Also, the 5 songs that receive the most likes each week should be on the home page. Dislikes would be visible, but would be completely useless in reducing an artist's exposure.

Wurfel-Waffles
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-06-30 03:52:08 Reply

At 6/30/13 03:35 AM, BlueOceans wrote: I would love the removal of the 1-5 voting system and the charts.

About the Fulps wanting to do the changes...


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Sielumetsien
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-05 04:00:40 Reply

Hey, guys about voting, you should see this

Sequenced
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-05 07:15:28 Reply

well I have to say now...

that the 20 votes and top score gets in the popular audio charts. updated weekly every wednesday. just thought I'd let you guys know.

let the competition begin >:)


lel

CapnCoconuts
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-09 01:39:15 Reply

At 7/5/13 04:00 AM, Sielumetsien wrote: Hey, guys about voting, you should see this

It'd be funny if all of his videos were suddenly mass disliked.


Recent Audio: Nuclear Winter | Nuclear Holocaust | Don't Wait Until Night

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BrokenDeck
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-12 16:58:38 Reply

Someone asked if there was a download all songs possibility, and I was wondering if that would actually be feasible.

Or as an alternative to that, a "download all from playlist" button, so that if someone assembles an "album" from his or her playlist, a listener could DL the entire album relatively easier

@TomFulp
Is that feasible? :D

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-12 17:22:25 Reply

Likes and Dislikes 10 points for BlueOceans


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alternativesolution
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-12 17:31:16 Reply

At 7/12/13 04:58 PM, BrokenDeck wrote: Or as an alternative to that, a "download all from playlist" button, so that if someone assembles an "album" from his or her playlist, a listener could DL the entire album relatively easier

This is a great idea!

At 7/12/13 05:22 PM, ForeverBound wrote: Likes and Dislikes 10 points for BlueOceans

Clearly that is a terrible idea!


------->>> Post a random word

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ForeverBound
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-13 09:21:09 Reply

Clearly that is a terrible idea!

why would it be a bad idea?


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Teqneek
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 17:51:27 Reply

Earlier this week I made a post here containing a big list of links to the pages of Newgrounds Hip Hop producers, and asked people to add to the list (no self-promotion) in the comments. I posted this as a useful tool for our little corner of Newgrounds, because NG search isn't very useful for finding good beats to use.

My thread was almost immediately blocked under the "advertising" rule, and I got a pretty disturbing explanation in a convo with BrokenDeck. Anyway, I left that conversation even more confused than before, but it gave me an awesome idea.

Basically- YO MODS, would you consider adding a 'Hip Hop- Instrumentals' category? It would be so much easier for vocalists to find beats, and it would help our hard-working composers get discovered easier. I think this subcategory would work with the Metal and Southern Flavor sections as well.

Do you guys agree?

camoshark
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 17:53:11 Reply

At 7/21/13 05:51 PM, Teqneek wrote: Basically- YO MODS, would you consider adding a 'Hip Hop- Instrumentals' category? It would be so much easier for vocalists to find beats, and it would help our hard-working composers get discovered easier. I think this subcategory would work with the Metal and Southern Flavor sections as well.

Do you guys agree?

I see no reason why not. +1

frootza
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 18:25:59 Reply

(Alert; word heavy post)
I think some people may disagree with me on this... But likewise I'm sure some authors will understand where I am coming from.

I feel as though reviews should be hidden unless the listener really wants to read said reviews (show reviews option). Why?

Well...

This removes any self-serving bias on behalf of the author;
This also removes our tendency to formulate an opinion of a piece based on how other listeners perceive it (whether positive or negative).

To elaborate... this may also remove the "self-fulfilling prophecy" aspect of the review process... The tendency for someone's expectations about another to cause that person to behave in a manner consistent with those expectations... This may be positive or negative.

There is the Pygmalion effect (high expectations tend to improve the individual's performance).
And there is the Golem effect (low expectations tend to lower the individual's performance).

Having the option to show/hide reviews may help improve the AP.

At any rate. I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread yet. Maybe this concept has already been covered. But I thought I would add my two cents.


////Never stop making music.

Teqneek
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 18:26:30 Reply

Yeah, sorry for airing out BD like that. There's many things about that conversation that left a bad taste in my mouth, and whether or not I agree, it all falls within the rules. Not his fault.

Just know that almost everything I fight for, or question, is with intentions to better this site. It's just kinda frustrating because I feel I have some great input, and it seems like much of it's shunned because I'm not a made man here.

----- ----- -----

But yeah- a new 'Instrumentals' subcategory in the Hip Hop, Metal, and Southern Flavor sections, would be extremely helpful. If we got one, I'd promise not to bitch again for at least 45 days.

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 18:59:34 Reply

At 7/21/13 06:26 PM, Teqneek wrote:
But yeah- a new 'Instrumentals'...

Using the short description and tagging system would also help the search function a great deal. Encourage other hiphop instrumental users to add the words "hiphop" and "instrumental" to their short description and / or tags, and their songs would be easily and quickly found here.

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 20:44:55 Reply

At 7/21/13 06:59 PM, BrokenDeck wrote:
At 7/21/13 06:26 PM, Teqneek wrote:
But yeah- a new 'Instrumentals'...
Using the short description and tagging system would also help the search function a great deal. Encourage other hiphop instrumental users to add the words "hiphop" and "instrumental" to their short description and / or tags, and their songs would be easily and quickly found here.

...or you could just add the new categories and make it much more convenient for a large amount of Newgrounds users since this is actually a really useful suggestion that honestly should have been considered years ago. I don't understand why you more or less completely ignore the idea of adding the categories when it is a legitimately good idea.

Some of the mods often appear biased against the newgrounds hip-hop community and it is confusing to me, as Newgrounds hip-hop brings in a considerable amount of visitors to the site that would otherwise not likely even know of its existence. Moderators "disliking" the attitude of some users has been used as an excuse for this low enthusiasm when listening to ideas of newgrounds hip-hop artists, which seems very unprofessional considering the moderators are more or less employees of Newgrounds and hip-hop artists and listeners are customers of Newgrounds. It is not the job of moderators to assist only users they like, but instead to assist everyone they can in order to insure the continued growth and survival of Newgrounds. I see personal vendettas getting in the way of the main business agenda.

Back-From-Purgatory
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 20:59:31 Reply

At 7/21/13 08:44 PM, JakobePaulobe wrote:
At 7/21/13 06:59 PM, BrokenDeck wrote:
At 7/21/13 06:26 PM, Teqneek wrote:
But yeah- a new 'Instrumentals'...
Using the short description and tagging system would also help the search function a great deal. Encourage other hiphop instrumental users to add the words "hiphop" and "instrumental" to their short description and / or tags, and their songs would be easily and quickly found here.
...or you could just add the new categories and make it much more convenient for a large amount of Newgrounds users since this is actually a really useful suggestion that honestly should have been considered years ago. I don't understand why you more or less completely ignore the idea of adding the categories when it is a legitimately good idea.

Some of the mods often appear biased against the newgrounds hip-hop community and it is confusing to me, as Newgrounds hip-hop brings in a considerable amount of visitors to the site that would otherwise not likely even know of its existence. Moderators "disliking" the attitude of some users has been used as an excuse for this low enthusiasm when listening to ideas of newgrounds hip-hop artists, which seems very unprofessional considering the moderators are more or less employees of Newgrounds and hip-hop artists and listeners are customers of Newgrounds. It is not the job of moderators to assist only users they like, but instead to assist everyone they can in order to insure the continued growth and survival of Newgrounds. I see personal vendettas getting in the way of the main business agenda.

None of the moderators are biased against hip-hop. Where everyone is getting this idea from is beyond me.

We generally turn away genre requests because music is spread thin as it is, and the tagging system was implemented for the very purpose of narrowing down your tracks searchability.

If it's an instrumental hip-hop track, put it in hip-hop (Whichever of the subgenres you so choose) then put Instrumental as a tag... that's what the tagging system is for. We tell the same to anyone else, regardless of the genre they make.

Also, we are not employees, we are volunteers.


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Teqneek
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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 21:10:07 Reply

At 7/21/13 06:59 PM, BrokenDeck wrote:
Encourage users to add the words "hiphop" and "instrumental" to their short description and / or tags, and their songs would be easily and quickly found here.

Shot down yet again...

OKAY- So that search yielded 23 results.

Now you're telling me, that out of the THOUSANDS of instrumentals hidden on this website, only a handful are tagged correctly? If that's the case, then a "Genre- Instrumentals" subcategory is WAY more necessary than I previously thought.

Seriously- why on earth am I always being dismissed so quickly? Nothing ever changes for the better unless someone brings it to light, and that's all I'm doing. The baffling responses and non-action I've witnessed here makes it seem like you're actively trying to stunt site growth.

Even if you guys hate my guts, this is a useful tool that will improve the site. The only reason my recommendation shouldn't be implemented immediately, is if it takes hundreds of man-hours and resources to create. I'm no computer wiz, but this seems like about ten minutes of work.

Implementing an 'Instrumentals' subcategory will streamline the search process, and saves a ton of time for a lot of people. This helps productivity and 'encourages' people to keep coming here. I really hope our goals are mutual...

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 21:27:17 Reply

At 7/21/13 08:59 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote:
We generally turn away genre requests because music is spread thin as it is, and the tagging system was implemented for the very purpose of narrowing down your tracks searchability.

If it's an instrumental hip-hop track, put it in hip-hop (Whichever of the subgenres you so choose) then put Instrumental as a tag... that's what the tagging system is for. We tell the same to anyone else, regardless of the genre they make.

Also, we are not employees, we are volunteers.

This is my general take on this issue as well.

However, I've started inquiries into the feasibility of yet another sub genre. None of us can promise anything in concrete, but rest assured, we are not blowing anyone off.

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 21:44:44 Reply

At 7/21/13 08:59 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote:
None of the moderators are biased against hip-hop. Where everyone is getting this idea from is beyond me.

Aside from many of our ideas and concerns being shot down? DJ Ses.

DJ Ses should have been permabanned years ago. We brought it up many times. Nothing was ever done about it.

We finally got fed up with it, so we banded together and decided to explain our case publicly. You guys still didn't ban him. We were told not to worry about song scores and chart standings, because the music itself is what's important.

^I found that response extremely dismissive; akin to "this only affects your little corner of NG, so fuck you".

I was later told by a mod that you didn't "like our attitude", hence no action was taken. Dude, we would've never had an attitude in the first place if this obvious injustice had been stopped.

We generally feel that, had this problem existed in the metal section, it would have been neutralized on day one.

We turn away genre requests because music is spread thin as it is, and the tagging system was implemented for the very purpose of narrowing down your tracks searchability.

At least half of the Hip Hop audio here is in the form of instrumentals. Think about it; HipHop- Instrumentals should've been the very first subcategory created for the genre.


Also, we are not employees, we are volunteers.

Sign me up. I'll do whatever I can to fix this place.

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 21:55:28 Reply

At 7/21/13 09:27 PM, BrokenDeck wrote: I've started inquiries into the feasibility of yet another sub genre. None of us can promise anything in concrete, but rest assured, we are not blowing anyone off.

Thanks man. You were starting to scare me.

Also, when it comes to the Hip Hop category, there are currently only 4 subgenres- 'Nerdcore' being one of them.

Metal has 8, Electronic has 11, so I understand the clutter issue in regards to them.

A Hip Hop Instrumentals subcategory would be awesome for us, and would still make it one of the least cluttered genres. Thanks for looking into the matter dude; it's a step in the right direction and that's a good thing.

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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 22:02:41 Reply

This is somewhat related to the current discussion: tags aren't searchable. Neither are usernames, which is kind of logical (if totally ridiculous). If all someone knows is my username then it's impossible for them to find my music on here. I thought I'd solve this issue by adding my name as a tag, but then I discovered those aren't searchable either. The short description is searchable, but I feel like that's the purpose of tags.

So for what it's worth, in the case of hip-hop instrumentals, it would only really work as something in their short description.


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Response to Ways to improve the Audio Portal? 2013-07-21 22:41:57 Reply

At 7/21/13 10:02 PM, AetherX wrote: This is somewhat related to the current discussion: tags aren't searchable. Neither are usernames, which is kind of logical (if totally ridiculous).

Whenever I use NG audio search, I leave feeling frightened and vulnerable. Before NG search, I was a happy person. I had faith in both god and humanity.

It's all gone now. I am unclean. Nothing will bring back the person I once was...