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At 5/8/12 12:42 AM, shinobody wrote: But why you do not support it when it's not 100%? Gender identity is more complicated than just binary qualification, and it seems the only reason (I can imagine) you would disregard SRS in it's current state is that it creates specimen that don't fit nicely into M/F labels*. But then, I'd like to find your opinion on transgendered people. Not TS, the ones who don't identify themselves neither as guys or gals.
* - if that's bullshit just disregard this post, but I'd still like to know why you don't support SRS as it is.

Here's my opinion. I believe that someone with Gender Identity Disorder still should not be "encouraged" to pursue sexual reassignment surgery. First, all possible attempts should be made to cure them of their urges (therapy, correcting imbalances, etc - or at the very least, so they're able to cope with their condition). Basically, I feel the same considerations and precautions regarding Body Integrity Identity Disorder should be given to GID sufferers. This information (courtesy of www.biid.org):

"Treatment for BIID is not necessarily to get the disorder to go away because the patient may always have the desire to become an amputee no matter how much psychotherapy they go through. It is more productive to figure out a way to improve the quality of life instead of figuring out a way to ultimately obtain a surgical amputation. Effective treatments for this particular disorder are rare outside of actual amputation so it is important to explore all of the resources that are available. It is important to stress to the patient that support from others is essential. Participating in groups with others that suffer from this disorder has been deemed helpful by BIID sufferers themselves.

Also encourage the client to think about the pros and cons of going through the amputation surgery. They may feel an immediate satisfaction from the surgery but there are other burdens that may come in result from a surgery. Financial costs, intimate relationships, career opportunities as well as many other things should be greatly considered before opting for the actual surgery. It is essential to have open and honest communication with the client no matter what the circumstances are."

-------------------------

However, if all else fails, and the GID sufferer's health is at risk (such as self inflicted bodily harm and/or suicide), then I would fully support granting them SRS. I think many people are truly unable to fathom the distress these people go through.

At 5/8/12 01:31 AM, Anti-pie wrote: I completely agree that a sex change operation is ridiculous. I agree I don't care what peoples sexually orientations are but when you're trying to be something that just isn't possible it's just stupid. Born with a dick= Male Born with Vag= Female. Don't like it? To fucking bad.

Thanks for reading the thread and carefully considering all of the arguments that have been made.

Why do you give a shit what others do with their bodies?

At 5/8/12 01:34 AM, NotoriousRedFox wrote: I believe that someone with Gender Identity Disorder still should not be "encouraged" to pursue sexual reassignment surgery.
There are other burdens that may come in result from a surgery. Financial costs, intimate relationships, career opportunities as well as many other things should be greatly considered before opting for the actual surgery. It is essential to have open and honest communication with the client no matter what the circumstances are."
However, if all else fails, and the GID sufferer's health is at risk (such as self inflicted bodily harm and/or suicide), then I would fully support granting them SRS. I think many people are truly unable to fathom the distress these people go through.

I for one can respect that. To clarify I wasn't speaking of encouraging gender reassignment surgery, just of allowing it for people that want it.

Can't speak for anyone else that posted, but yeah. That's what I was thinking.

At 5/8/12 01:31 AM, bgraybr wrote:

At 5/8/12 01:27 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: Not trying to seek it is still running away from conflict! You fear it, but use an euphemism to hide it! Oh, I'm not afraid. I'm just doing the same thing people who are afraid of conflict would do! If you aren't afraid. Why are you judging from the sidelines!?

So if one doesn't go out of his way to do something, then he is afraid of doing it?

Let me put it in common terms: ''I am inclined to think you are afraid of wordly conflict.'' Because I simply feel like it.

I guess I'm afraid to clean my room right now then.

I guess you are, since I am going to be stubborn - like you - and insist on something that has very little ground!

So that's an excuse not to accept transgendered people, right?

You only make an assumption via a vastly vague categorical term that isn't even fully understood. So good job with the whole ''I like to argue against what I don't even understand.''!

We're arguing about gender reassignment surgery. You don't like it for some reason, but had to go off on a hug tangent about society as a whole to explain why. You still haven't stated how allowing gender reassignment surgery will, in itself, harm others.

1. You are validating an action with false premises built on with your superior bias.

2. You are reasurring an unsure subject.

3. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT IS REALLY A NATURAL DISPLACEMENT OF GENDER. They just assume it, because people love to blow their subjective experiences out of the god damn rabbit hole untot he real world. Look at how far religious and homosexuality has gone! Aren't they based on 'feelings'? Mhmm...?

4. Seriously... Are you really going to buy into that ''I am in the wrong body'' bullshit? Just because feel confused about their gender doesn't mean that it what it is. It could be something entirely simple, or they could be some guy fishing in the sea thinking they caught 'the big one' and all they have is a god damn hook tangled up in moss!

At 5/8/12 01:34 AM, bgraybr wrote:

At 5/8/12 01:31 AM, Anti-pie wrote: I completely agree that a sex change operation is ridiculous. I agree I don't care what peoples sexually orientations are but when you're trying to be something that just isn't possible it's just stupid. Born with a dick= Male Born with Vag= Female. Don't like it? To fucking bad.

Thanks for reading the thread and carefully considering all of the arguments that have been made.

Why do you give a shit what others do with their bodies?

I read what I needed which was the first post which asked about our opinion and I gave it. Why do I care? I don't care at all and never said I cared I just gave my opinion. Someone who's dumb enough to get a sex change doesn't deserve to be cared for.

At 5/8/12 01:40 AM, Anti-pie wrote: Someone who's dumb enough to get a sex change doesn't deserve to be cared for.

You're a judgmental shit.

I don't care at all and never said I cared I just gave my opinion.

No one gives a fuck. If you're going to post at least try to make an argument.
How does "I don't care" make what you said any more justified? You don't win arguments by virtue of not caring.

At 5/8/12 01:43 AM, DickChick wrote: nonsense

Because its his OPINION?

Regardless if he is a douchebag with a ''I don't give a fuck'' attitude. At the fuck least he has the sanity to say OPINION.

At 5/8/12 01:40 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: I guess you are, since I am going to be stubborn - like you - and insist on something that has very little ground!

How wonderfully mature.

3. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT IS REALLY A NATURAL DISPLACEMENT OF GENDER.

Define "natural", and who cares?

Think of it like plastic surgery if you can't accept the mental argument. Why shouldn't people be allowed to modify their own bodies? It won't hurt others or themselves, as long as it's under the careful guidance of a doctor (which it is).

Look at how far religious and homosexuality has gone! Aren't they based on 'feelings'? Mhmm...?

Homosexuality occurs in animals besides humans; it has scientific and psychological backing.

Also, I like to fuck guys. So fuck you.

4. Seriously... Are you really going to buy into that ''I am in the wrong body'' bullshit? Just because feel confused about their gender doesn't mean that it what it is. It could be something entirely simple, or they could be some guy fishing in the sea thinking they caught 'the big one' and all they have is a god damn hook tangled up in moss!

Not for you to decide, so long as it doesn't hurt no one, but I've already made that point to death.

At 5/8/12 01:43 AM, DickChick wrote:

At 5/8/12 01:40 AM, Anti-pie wrote: Someone who's dumb enough to get a sex change doesn't deserve to be cared for.

You're a judgmental shit.

I don't care at all and never said I cared I just gave my opinion.

No one gives a fuck. If you're going to post at least try to make an argument.
How does "I don't care" make what you said any more justified? You don't win arguments by virtue of not caring.

i'm not here to argue with any of you retards. Op asked for opinion I gave it. I don't care what you think of what I posted and will forget about it anyways. If you wanna be all butt sore about what I said go ahead.

At 5/8/12 01:47 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: Because its his OPINION?

Regardless if he is a douchebag with a ''I don't give a fuck'' attitude. At the fuck least he has the sanity to say OPINION.

I never said that it wasn't my fucking opinion.

Of course it's my opinion, I can't prove it but I can demonstrate how it's better than yours with facts.

Still subjective in the end, but that's what politics etc. is about.

At 5/8/12 01:22 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: I am by far not ignorant or stupid. I also do not preach! I question the actions of mankind! The world is never questioned by me.

Figure of speech man, all I'm saying is you state for people to be brutally honest at all times but you only do this when you feel its appropriate like everyone else, right?

I am not belittling the world. I am challenging people's substantial nonsense they spew over their prejudiced bias!

Nah lol, your belittling society, cowards, idiots mindless are all attempts at belittling, and no I'm not butt-hurt, I'm just saying it is what it is. Calling me stupid because I don't think society is going to implode on itself at any given moment because of subjectivity doesn't make me want to "open my mind". As much as you and I may not like it gays and trans are here to stay, therefore you have to live and let live but that doesn't mean you can't also make sure they stay the hell out of your way.

At 5/8/12 01:49 AM, bgraybr wrote:
I never said that it wasn't my fucking opinion.

That was directed towards anti pie.

At 5/8/12 01:51 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote: That was directed towards anti pie.

I'm genuinely sorry about that.

At 5/8/12 01:47 AM, DickChick wrote:

At 5/8/12 01:40 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: I guess you are, since I am going to be stubborn - like you - and insist on something that has very little ground!

How wonderfully mature.

Using sarcastic immaturity to counter immaturity makes me mature. : )

3. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT IS REALLY A NATURAL DISPLACEMENT OF GENDER.

Define "natural", and who cares?

The body is naturally causing the body to react in the way that it does? That it maybe it is all not in people's stupid heads.

Think of it like plastic surgery if you can't accept the mental argument. Why shouldn't people be allowed to modify their own bodies? It won't hurt others or themselves, as long as it's under the careful guidance of a doctor (which it is).

By this, you assume I accept plastic surgery. How mature of you! I'm sick of the ''I should be able to do whatever I want with my body, even though I'm completely clueless about the well-being of the natural aspects of my body and the intrinsic factors of the mind and body that all come together in a cohesive system of cryptic balance! And I could be chasing a goose that doesn't even exist with my teenage-angst, and my unwavering ignorance that continues to be the captain of my ship that I never cared about because life is boring when I don't fuck it up like an idiot!''

Look at how far religious and homosexuality has gone! Aren't they based on 'feelings'? Mhmm...?

Homosexuality occurs in animals besides humans; it has scientific and psychological backing.

We are not animals. Don't even use that pathetic argument because you think scientists are actually making absolute sense by connecting a human being to an animal based off of similarities. It isn't like they found a link or any real final proof to their evolution theory. So keep your narrow-minded regurgitation to yourself.

Also, I like to fuck guys. So fuck you.

Not my problem.

4. Seriously... Are you really going to buy into that ''I am in the wrong body'' bullshit? Just because feel confused about their gender doesn't mean that it what it is. It could be something entirely simple, or they could be some guy fishing in the sea thinking they caught 'the big one' and all they have is a god damn hook tangled up in moss!

Not for you to decide, so long as it doesn't hurt no one, but I've already made that point to death.

Not for you to decide either! Not even you fully understand the mysteries of your body, yet you think you have the ticket to shape it because you think your body is herping and derping!

I would never do it, but let the freaks do what they want to do.

At 5/8/12 01:57 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote:

Not for you to decide either! Not even you fully understand the mysteries of your body, yet you think you have the ticket to shape it because you think your body is herping and derping!

okay you SURE your not/related to insanctuary you argue with almost as much hilarious passion as he does.

At 5/8/12 01:51 AM, II2none wrote:

At 5/8/12 01:22 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: I am by far not ignorant or stupid. I also do not preach! I question the actions of mankind! The world is never questioned by me.

Figure of speech man, all I'm saying is you state for people to be brutally honest at all times but you only do this when you feel its appropriate like everyone else, right?

It is difficult to be brutally honest in a world like the one we live in. It is best to do your best to not create distortion.

I am not belittling the world. I am challenging people's substantial nonsense they spew over their prejudiced bias!

Nah lol, your belittling society, cowards, idiots mindless are all attempts at belittling, and no I'm not butt-hurt, I'm just saying it is what it is. Calling me stupid because I don't think society is going to implode on itself at any given moment because of subjectivity doesn't make me want to "open my mind". As much as you and I may not like it gays and trans are here to stay, therefore you have to live and let live but that doesn't mean you can't also make sure they stay the hell out of your way.

I wouldn't be saying it if it wasn't so fucking obvious.

You act like I discriminate against people who are different... When it isn't the people... It is their fucking ludicrous ideas. I understand that everyone is naturally confused. I know how hard it must be to establish your own balanced interpersonal truth to be able to live inward and outward without much confliction. But... Alot of people are having a swell time distorting the fundamentals of our world with their biased slander of our world! People are like a bunch of octopuses wanting to have their ink spewed all over the world with its prejudiced, un-manifested, un-collected, unaccesed personal gunk.

At 5/8/12 02:03 AM, II2none wrote: More accusations

Fuck you.

At 5/8/12 01:57 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote: The body is naturally causing the body to react in the way that it does? That it maybe it is all not in people's stupid heads.

The word "natural" is difficult to define. People are part of nature, what's in our minds is part of nature. If we do it, is it not natural? Or did you mean normal? Can you even prove that it's out of the range of normality, considering that a significant number of people are "unnatural" according to you?

By this, you assume I accept plastic surgery. How mature of you! I'm sick of the ''I should be able to do whatever I want with my body, even though I'm completely clueless about the well-being of the natural aspects of my body and the intrinsic factors of the mind and body that all come together in a cohesive system of cryptic balance! And I could be chasing a goose that doesn't even exist with my teenage-angst, and my unwavering ignorance that continues to be the captain of my ship that I never cared about because life is boring when I don't fuck it up like an idiot!''

For what it's worth my body is my property. Under a doctors guidance, it's not clueless. Can things still go wrong? Yes, but that risk is justified for many.

We are not animals. Don't even use that pathetic argument because you think scientists are actually making absolute sense by connecting a human being to an animal based off of similarities.

We are animals in every way. We are made of cells, have minds like animals (albeit more complex). The similarities can be seen in all of our structures. We're just machines. Complex machines, but machines nonetheless. If you think any more than that then you're the one caught up in "feelings".

evolution theory.

Not relevant when you consider the above.

Not my problem.

Exactly, so let me do it.

Not for you to decide either! Not even you fully understand the mysteries of your body

The body isn't exactly a mystery. There are still unknowns of course, but it's inner workings... we obviously know them well enough to modify it.

All medicines, etc. are degrees of modification anyways. Gender reassignment surgery is much more severe, but you get the point.

At 5/8/12 01:34 AM, NotoriousRedFox wrote: Here's my opinion. I believe that someone with Gender Identity Disorder still should not be "encouraged" to pursue sexual reassignment surgery.
However, if all else fails, and the GID sufferer's health is at risk (such as self inflicted bodily harm and/or suicide), then I would fully support granting them SRS. I think many people are truly unable to fathom the distress these people go through.

I think you are being mistaken. Nobody argues that BIID is a disorder, while qualification of GID as disorder is rather controversial. BIID and GID are very different, despite having similar acronyms.
Transsexuality is not about problems in perceiving one's body as in BIID case, is about perceiving one's mind and gender identity. SRS is a mean to be accepted in society in newly reassigned gender role, not the other way round.
Transexuals desire to live and be accepted as member of different sex than assigned at birth, NOT to have female/male looking body.
Lot of TS people live just on hormones, and don't pursue SRS (contrary to popular opinion) and are happy with their lives.

At 5/8/12 02:07 AM, bgraybr wrote:

At 5/8/12 01:57 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote: The body is naturally causing the body to react in the way that it does? That it maybe it is all not in people's stupid heads.

The word "natural" is difficult to define. People are part of nature, what's in our minds is part of nature. If we do it, is it not natural? Or did you mean normal? Can you even prove that it's out of the range of normality, considering that a significant number of people are "unnatural" according to you?

Natural as in. You aren't being jailbait to your own mind's illusions. That the experiences you feel aren't actually something else! Like, I don't. Maybe sensuality is psychological and if people can't fuck inanimate objects, I am pretty sure people can be turned on by the same sex! Doesn't mean ANYTHING. Just means you are too quick to second-guess the entirety of your life for what ever fucking stupid reason what have you.

By this, you assume I accept plastic surgery. How mature of you! I'm sick of the ''I should be able to do whatever I want with my body, even though I'm completely clueless about the well-being of the natural aspects of my body and the intrinsic factors of the mind and body that all come together in a cohesive system of cryptic balance! And I could be chasing a goose that doesn't even exist with my teenage-angst, and my unwavering ignorance that continues to be the captain of my ship that I never cared about because life is boring when I don't fuck it up like an idiot!''

For what it's worth my body is my property. Under a doctors guidance, it's not clueless. Can things still go wrong? Yes, but that risk is justified for many.

There is no property. And saying it is your property only tells me you are desperate to do things to your body. Why? Is it because you have no control in much of anything else you do? Does your body give you something you don't have in many other situations? Control? Power? This isn't a god damned RPG game. You aren't customizing yourself! You are being gullible, and tricked by your own body's feelings! You can not say for sure, 100% that you know exactly what you want... you just say what you do based off your own biased claims that are inflated by your own stubborn lack of illustration of what it is. You are no more different than religious followers and their 'enlightenment'.

We are not animals. Don't even use that pathetic argument because you think scientists are actually making absolute sense by connecting a human being to an animal based off of similarities.

We are animals in every way. We are made of cells, have minds like animals (albeit more complex). The similarities can be seen in all of our structures. We're just machines. Complex machines, but machines nonetheless. If you think any more than that then you're the one caught up in "feelings".

You still are not looking at the other possibilities. You only look at what makes you appear to be right. You don't fully understand your feelings. You only define them personally, but that does not make it so! We have free will and a very advanced cognitive ability. If you REALLY think you are attracted to the same sex without any evidence (not a single person who follows your illusion does, mind you) then you are the one trapped in your own entanglement of emotion and bias.

evolution theory.

Not relevant when you consider the above.

Consider what? I don't see anything to consider. Humans are not animals - PERIOD.

Not my problem.

Exactly, so let me do it.

Not for you to decide either! Not even you fully understand the mysteries of your body

The body isn't exactly a mystery. There are still unknowns of course, but it's inner workings... we obviously know them well enough to modify it.

One of those unknowns is what you use to determine your alleged sexual orientation! : )

All medicines, etc. are degrees of modification anyways. Gender reassignment surgery is much more severe, but you get the point.

Don't care. I personally do not encourage the fucketry of nature.

At 5/8/12 02:03 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote:
I wouldn't be saying it if it wasn't so fucking obvious.

It's obvious o everyone else to but most people aren't concerned about it. Life to short to scrutinize others for not being on your mental level of awareness.

You act like I discriminate against people who are different... When it isn't the people... It is their fucking ludicrous ideas. I understand that everyone is naturally confused. I know how hard it must be to establish your own balanced interpersonal truth to be able to live inward and outward without much confliction. But... Alot of people are having a swell time distorting the fundamentals of our world with their biased slander of our world! People are like a bunch of octopuses wanting to have their ink spewed all over the world with its prejudiced, un-manifested, un-collected, unaccesed personal gunk.

No but you pretty much said you don't like the idea of transsexuals in your first post. It's called comfort zone and happiness, why not do what it takes without compromising the things that make you,you. Were not a colony your not going to come together and think the same all strive to be, do something thats bigger then ourselves,ITS NOT HAPPENING. Human nature is going to prove until we go extinct that were going to do what we want, think how we want in the easiest/preffered way possible. If that includes the men in white filing LGBT's under identity crisis, and at birth mental disorders, what can you do about it? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The hard Truth.

At 5/8/12 02:16 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: Natural as in. You aren't being jailbait to your own mind's illusions. That the experiences you feel aren't actually something else! Like, I don't.

I'll put it this way, if those illusions aren't natural then why do our natural minds create them? What is nature?

Saying that something is "unnatural" is not an argument in itself.

Maybe sensuality is psychological and if people can't fuck inanimate objects, I am pretty sure people can be turned on by the same sex! Doesn't mean ANYTHING. Just means you are too quick to second-guess the entirety of your life for what ever fucking stupid reason what have you.

It means that it's psychological, which means everything here.

There is no property. And saying it is your property only tells me you are desperate to do things to your body. Why? Is it because you have no control in much of anything else you do? Does your body give you something you don't have in many other situations? Control? Power? This isn't a god damned RPG game. You aren't customizing yourself!

I don't wish to do anything to my body but cut my hair, shave, etc. Perhaps tattoo the shit out of it later.
I don't care about it that much, my body isn't something to be revered. It keeps me alive and happy and that's all it has to do.

You are being gullible, and tricked by your own body's feelings! You can not say for sure, 100% that you know exactly what you want... you just say what you do based off your own biased claims that are inflated by your own stubborn lack of illustration of what it is. You are no more different than religious followers and their 'enlightenment'.

If we're going to think that way then I might as well forgo all personal decision making.

We have free will

Yes I do.

If you REALLY think you are attracted to the same sex without any evidence then you are the one trapped in your own entanglement of emotion and bias.

I don't need evidence, attraction isn't logical.
If I'm attracted to someone I don't stop to think if it's logical or not, or care to know exactly why I feel that way. I just know that I am.

Consider what? I don't see anything to consider. Humans are not animals - PERIOD.

Except that we share every trait of an animal.

One of those unknowns is what you use to determine your alleged sexual orientation!

So...?

Don't care. I personally do not encourage the fucketry of nature.

So we shouldn't use any medicine or practice any surgery?

At 5/8/12 02:20 AM, II2none wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:03 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote:
I wouldn't be saying it if it wasn't so fucking obvious.

It's obvious o everyone else to but most people aren't concerned about it. Life to short to scrutinize others for not being on your mental level of awareness.

The way I see it. This world is going to last alot longer than our 'short' lives, and we need to stop being selfish about it. There will be people who will live after us and I don't know about you, but I HATE cleaning up after other slobs.

You act like I discriminate against people who are different... When it isn't the people... It is their fucking ludicrous ideas. I understand that everyone is naturally confused. I know how hard it must be to establish your own balanced interpersonal truth to be able to live inward and outward without much confliction. But... Alot of people are having a swell time distorting the fundamentals of our world with their biased slander of our world! People are like a bunch of octopuses wanting to have their ink spewed all over the world with its prejudiced, un-manifested, un-collected, unaccesed personal gunk.

No but you pretty much said you don't like the idea of transsexuals in your first post. It's called comfort zone and happiness, why not do what it takes without compromising the things that make you,you. Were not a colony your not going to come together and think the same all strive to be, do something thats bigger then ourselves,ITS NOT HAPPENING. Human nature is going to prove until we go extinct that were going to do what we want, think how we want in the easiest/preffered way possible. If that includes the men in white filing LGBT's under identity crisis, and at birth mental disorders, what can you do about it? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The hard Truth.

Not because it is - herp - transexual related. I have broad reasons that foreshadow the whole of the world and how people act and complain as a whole to express why I declare it to be stupid. I am very familiar with this stupid happiness and comfort zone that people will do anything for - including raping the harmony away from those who will live after us, or those who are fucking stuck in this pigsty of a reality. Of course not! We are not a colony of any sorts! What we are though... are life forms with a VERY advanced system that we completely shit on every day. We are much better than this through and through. We only choose not to and continue the reign of our fascist orgies! The whole ''do what I want'' and ''think what I want'' is vague, but to oppose your implication, I disa fucking gree. People need to learn how to draw a mother fucking line and stop leading their lives with illusions and excuses.

I can tell you that it is fucking stupid. That isn't ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is every one else's job, apparently.

At 5/8/12 02:27 AM, bgraybr wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:16 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: Natural as in. You aren't being jailbait to your own mind's illusions. That the experiences you feel aren't actually something else! Like, I don't.

I'll put it this way, if those illusions aren't natural then why do our natural minds create them? What is nature?

Same way a NATURAL person can create the tooth fairy.

Saying that something is "unnatural" is not an argument in itself.

I've gave you more than ''It is fucking unnatural!''.

Maybe sensuality is psychological and if people can't fuck inanimate objects, I am pretty sure people can be turned on by the same sex! Doesn't mean ANYTHING. Just means you are too quick to second-guess the entirety of your life for what ever fucking stupid reason what have you.

It means that it's psychological, which means everything here.

It means that you aren't seeing everything you think you see. And those feelings aren't what you think they are!

There is no property. And saying it is your property only tells me you are desperate to do things to your body. Why? Is it because you have no control in much of anything else you do? Does your body give you something you don't have in many other situations? Control? Power? This isn't a god damned RPG game. You aren't customizing yourself!

I don't wish to do anything to my body but cut my hair, shave, etc. Perhaps tattoo the shit out of it later.
I don't care about it that much, my body isn't something to be revered. It keeps me alive and happy and that's all it has to do.

Of course you don't care about it. So you turn it into a show-boat and then deny it. Why else would you want to modify it!?

You are being gullible, and tricked by your own body's feelings! You can not say for sure, 100% that you know exactly what you want... you just say what you do based off your own biased claims that are inflated by your own stubborn lack of illustration of what it is. You are no more different than religious followers and their 'enlightenment'.

If we're going to think that way then I might as well forgo all personal decision making.

You can make conjectures, but this specifict conjecture is not supported with enough reason! You only personally 'think' that the feelings you've experienced subjectively have something to do with this whole sexual orientation when it is quite clear that people love to shove giant straws into what they do not fully understand for their own fucking happiness.

We have free will

Yes I do.

People who do not know how to criticall assess themselves, or do not care about their body do not have enough free will, because your objections and assumptions derive from an internal conflict you simply do not want to confront.

If you REALLY think you are attracted to the same sex without any evidence then you are the one trapped in your own entanglement of emotion and bias.

I don't need evidence, attraction isn't logical.
If I'm attracted to someone I don't stop to think if it's logical or not, or care to know exactly why I feel that way. I just know that I am.

That argument is stupid. You don't ''know why''. You only feel inclined to judge the fuck out of for your own favor without justification. (Like God)

Consider what? I don't see anything to consider. Humans are not animals - PERIOD.

Except that we share every trait of an animal.

Last time I checked. We aren't bounded by the natural circle. We actually can think independently on our own. Can interrelate with our world. Have the tools to apply ourselves unto the world. While animals are always stuck in their primitive circle.

One of those unknowns is what you use to determine your alleged sexual orientation!

So...?

So... You are no fucking different than a religious follower that defends their God with vagueness.

Don't care. I personally do not encourage the fucketry of nature.

So we shouldn't use any medicine or practice any surgery?

Never said that. I gave you my personal opinion. Leave it at fucking that.

At 5/8/12 02:28 AM, ILove2Grok wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:20 AM, II2none wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:03 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote:
I wouldn't be saying it if it wasn't so fucking obvious.

It's obvious o everyone else to but most people aren't concerned about it. Life to short to scrutinize others for not being on your mental level of awareness.

The way I see it. This world is going to last alot longer than our 'short' lives, and we need to stop being selfish about it. There will be people who will live after us and I don't know about you, but I HATE cleaning up after other slobs.

You act like I discriminate against people who are different... When it isn't the people... It is their fucking ludicrous ideas. I understand that everyone is naturally confused. I know how hard it must be to establish your own balanced interpersonal truth to be able to live inward and outward without much confliction. But... Alot of people are having a swell time distorting the fundamentals of our world with their biased slander of our world! People are like a bunch of octopuses wanting to have their ink spewed all over the world with its prejudiced, un-manifested, un-collected, unaccesed personal gunk.

No but you pretty much said you don't like the idea of transsexuals in your first post. It's called comfort zone and happiness, why not do what it takes without compromising the things that make you,you. Were not a colony your not going to come together and think the same all strive to be, do something thats bigger then ourselves,ITS NOT HAPPENING. Human nature is going to prove until we go extinct that were going to do what we want, think how we want in the easiest/preffered way possible. If that includes the men in white filing LGBT's under identity crisis, and at birth mental disorders, what can you do about it? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The hard Truth.

Not because it is - herp - transexual related. I have broad reasons that foreshadow the whole of the world and how people act and complain as a whole to express why I declare it to be stupid. I am very familiar with this stupid happiness and comfort zone that people will do anything for - including raping the harmony away from those who will live after us, or those who are fucking stuck in this pigsty of a reality. Of course not! We are not a colony of any sorts! What we are though... are life forms with a VERY advanced system that we completely shit on every day. We are much better than this through and through. We only choose not to and continue the reign of our fascist orgies! The whole ''do what I want'' and ''think what I want'' is vague, but to oppose your implication, I disa fucking gree. People need to learn how to draw a mother fucking line and stop leading their lives with illusions and excuses.

We're humans its our job to shit on society some places have the most bullshit laws I've ever heard of but why should I care I was only visiting, I don't live there does that make me selfish or does that make me wise enough to pick and choose my battles in which I would have far more control over?

I can tell you that it is fucking stupid. That isn't ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is every one else's job, apparently.

If your not part of the solution then why even bother? Every one has their own wants and desires and people only collaborate to achieve goals definitely not for the sake of being friendly for every act of kindness there is some form of gain it is virtually imossible to not be selfish to an extent.

At 5/8/12 02:36 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: Same way a NATURAL person can create the tooth fairy.

The tooth fairy is an idea. The idea itself is not unnatural.

It means that you aren't seeing everything you think you see. And those feelings aren't what you think they are!

How would you even determine that?

Of course you don't care about it. So you turn it into a show-boat and then deny it. Why else would you want to modify it!?

I still don't understand how this is negative so long as I live a happy life and don't hurt anyone.

You can make conjectures, but this specifict conjecture is not supported with enough reason! You only personally 'think' that the feelings you've experienced subjectively have something to do with this whole sexual orientation when it is quite clear that people love to shove giant straws into what they do not fully understand for their own fucking happiness.

Geez do I need a book load of logical reasoning if I want to get a tattoo or go a fuck a guy?
Many things that people do are based purely on whims or personal feelings. It isn't necessarily negative.

People who do not know how to criticall assess themselves, or do not care about their body do not have enough free will, because your objections and assumptions derive from an internal conflict you simply do not want to confront.

Thanks again for making that assumption, but how would you know if I have an internal conflict I don't want to confront?

That argument is stupid. You don't ''know why''. You only feel inclined to judge the fuck out of for your own favor without justification. (Like God)

What? Why do I need to know why?

Last time I checked. We aren't bounded by the natural circle. We actually can think independently on our own. Can interrelate with our world. Have the tools to apply ourselves unto the world. While animals are always stuck in their primitive circle.

We can do things that no other animal can. That doesn't mean that we don't share their traits. No animal can run as fast as a cheetah, but they are still animals. Animals aren't stuck anywhere either, populations change over time.

So... You are no fucking different than a religious follower that defends their God with vagueness.

I didn't understand where you're going with that argument.

You still aren't giving specific fucking reasons. You're just making of vague shit, speaking of "internal conflict", and attacking my feelings as if it will support your claims. You have no evidence that any of this is negative, you're just using your vague philosophical bullshit to justify not accepting certain groups of people.

I'm happy with my life, so fuck you, fuck all people like you, fuck trolls, fuck the world. This argument is pointless because you're a fucking idiot, no one wins, fucking hooray.

At 5/8/12 02:39 AM, II2none wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:28 AM, ILove2Grok wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:20 AM, II2none wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:03 AM, ILoveToGrok wrote:
I wouldn't be saying it if it wasn't so fucking obvious.

It's obvious o everyone else to but most people aren't concerned about it. Life to short to scrutinize others for not being on your mental level of awareness.

The way I see it. This world is going to last alot longer than our 'short' lives, and we need to stop being selfish about it. There will be people who will live after us and I don't know about you, but I HATE cleaning up after other slobs.

You act like I discriminate against people who are different... When it isn't the people... It is their fucking ludicrous ideas. I understand that everyone is naturally confused. I know how hard it must be to establish your own balanced interpersonal truth to be able to live inward and outward without much confliction. But... Alot of people are having a swell time distorting the fundamentals of our world with their biased slander of our world! People are like a bunch of octopuses wanting to have their ink spewed all over the world with its prejudiced, un-manifested, un-collected, unaccesed personal gunk.

No but you pretty much said you don't like the idea of transsexuals in your first post. It's called comfort zone and happiness, why not do what it takes without compromising the things that make you,you. Were not a colony your not going to come together and think the same all strive to be, do something thats bigger then ourselves,ITS NOT HAPPENING. Human nature is going to prove until we go extinct that were going to do what we want, think how we want in the easiest/preffered way possible. If that includes the men in white filing LGBT's under identity crisis, and at birth mental disorders, what can you do about it? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The hard Truth.

Not because it is - herp - transexual related. I have broad reasons that foreshadow the whole of the world and how people act and complain as a whole to express why I declare it to be stupid. I am very familiar with this stupid happiness and comfort zone that people will do anything for - including raping the harmony away from those who will live after us, or those who are fucking stuck in this pigsty of a reality. Of course not! We are not a colony of any sorts! What we are though... are life forms with a VERY advanced system that we completely shit on every day. We are much better than this through and through. We only choose not to and continue the reign of our fascist orgies! The whole ''do what I want'' and ''think what I want'' is vague, but to oppose your implication, I disa fucking gree. People need to learn how to draw a mother fucking line and stop leading their lives with illusions and excuses.

We're humans its our job to shit on society some places have the most bullshit laws I've ever heard of but why should I care I was only visiting, I don't live there does that make me selfish or does that make me wise enough to pick and choose my battles in which I would have far more control over?

I pick much bigger battles than you do, then. I will not sit and say 'fuck, I don't care' to the world. I have empathy and I am not going to shut out the bleeding fact that people are suffering because other people don't want to suffer by their OWN weakness and irresponsibilities. that is why. Suffering only exists, because people are too weak to handle themselves, so they created excuses and shit to run away from their OWN problems. This only resulted to consequences for everyone else! I'm never going to ignore this!

I can tell you that it is fucking stupid. That isn't ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is every one else's job, apparently.

If your not part of the solution then why even bother? Every one has their own wants and desires and people only collaborate to achieve goals definitely not for the sake of being friendly for every act of kindness there is some form of gain it is virtually imossible to not be selfish to an extent.

The way I see it. This world reflects off of everyone. When people shut themselves in, so does the world. Because of this, I can not open myself up - until the world opens itself up. Until then, I will continue speaking my fucking mind on the subject while everyone else thinks it is perfectly sane to ignore all of the responsibilities of our world and not say, hey, I should fight for what is right. I will never fucking understand why anyone can be devoured by this fake reality filled with lies. People are too stupid, careless, blind, weak or fearful to fucking face the world for the ugly face that it is. I will continue staring down the black holes of this face every day, and I will continue speaking my mind until the end of time. I'm not the problem here. They are. If I am a problem, because I remind people of a problem that they don't want to resolve because they are a problem themselves, then this world is filled with monkeys lord of all hypocrisy!

At 5/8/12 02:47 AM, bgraybr wrote:

At 5/8/12 02:36 AM, ILove2Grok wrote: Same way a NATURAL person can create the tooth fairy.

The tooth fairy is an idea. The idea itself is not unnatural.

Not when it is extracted unto the real world without any real justifiable extraction...

It means that you aren't seeing everything you think you see. And those feelings aren't what you think they are!

How would you even determine that?

''I'm bi/gay'' Why? ''Because my body is creating an attraction!''

Of course you don't care about it. So you turn it into a show-boat and then deny it. Why else would you want to modify it!?

I still don't understand how this is negative so long as I live a happy life and don't hurt anyone.

Living under a lie, and encouraging others to live under lies?

You can make conjectures, but this specifict conjecture is not supported with enough reason! You only personally 'think' that the feelings you've experienced subjectively have something to do with this whole sexual orientation when it is quite clear that people love to shove giant straws into what they do not fully understand for their own fucking happiness.

Geez do I need a book load of logical reasoning if I want to get a tattoo or go a fuck a guy?
Many things that people do are based purely on whims or personal feelings. It isn't necessarily negative.

How is it not negative? I have difficulty understand how you do not stop and think and measure the context of the situation you are in with the advanced system you are in possession of in the first place. Then come back to people like me and have no real way to defend your argument, because your argument is built from your interpretation of your subjective experiences you aren't 100% of, and your biased front.

People who do not know how to criticall assess themselves, or do not care about their body do not have enough free will, because your objections and assumptions derive from an internal conflict you simply do not want to confront.

Thanks again for making that assumption, but how would you know if I have an internal conflict I don't want to confront?

Because that ''attraction'' you have could be an entirely irrelevant problem. It might even borderline the concept of fucking anything whether it can move or not move. Remember, your physical eyes see a dick, your mind, not so much. Nothing short from a sex toy. If I offend you, I'm sorry. : )

That argument is stupid. You don't ''know why''. You only feel inclined to judge the fuck out of for your own favor without justification. (Like God)

What? Why do I need to know why?

Because it is silly to evaluate your life with a vague understanding of your body's functions?!

Last time I checked. We aren't bounded by the natural circle. We actually can think independently on our own. Can interrelate with our world. Have the tools to apply ourselves unto the world. While animals are always stuck in their primitive circle.

We can do things that no other animal can. That doesn't mean that we don't share their traits. No animal can run as fast as a cheetah, but they are still animals. Animals aren't stuck anywhere either, populations change over time.

Of course we have our own attributes and what not, and that is what makes us UNIQUE and not distinctine to COMPARISON. So stop using that argument.

So... You are no fucking different than a religious follower that defends their God with vagueness.

I didn't understand where you're going with that argument.

You felt 'something'. They felt something, and called it God's love. you felt something - an 'attraction' - and you called it being bi/gay.

You still aren't giving specific fucking reasons. You're just making of vague shit, speaking of "internal conflict", and attacking my feelings as if it will support your claims. You have no evidence that any of this is negative, you're just using your vague philosophical bullshit to justify not accepting certain groups of people.

You have NO evidence at all. And YOU are the one who shaped your life over a POSSIBILITY that is more wrong than right!

I'm happy with my life, so fuck you, fuck all people like you, fuck trolls, fuck the world. This argument is pointless because you're a fucking idiot, no one wins, fucking hooray.

Good for you. Why so defensive? Can't you handle a real argument where someone isn't afraid to put everything on table to profess a point?

At 5/8/12 02:47 AM, ILove2Grok wrote:

I pick much bigger battles than you do, then. I will not sit and say 'fuck, I don't care' to the world. I have empathy and I am not going to shut out the bleeding fact that people are suffering because other people don't want to suffer by their OWN weakness and irresponsibilities. that is why. Suffering only exists, because people are too weak to handle themselves, so they created excuses and shit to run away from their OWN problems. This only resulted to consequences for everyone else! I'm never going to ignore this!

Your not fighting anything your just preaching through a keyboard with unrealistic ideals of saving humanity. Some people don't want to be saved, don't you get that? the sooner you do the better off you'll be and save your self a shit ton of disappointment and a wasted existence. Plus whats your plan you have none so stop typing as if your the Second Coming, The One, The Guru of mankind.

If your not part of the solution then why even bother? Every one has their own wants and desires and people only collaborate to achieve goals definitely not for the sake of being friendly for every act of kindness there is some form of gain it is virtually imossible to not be selfish to an extent.

The way I see it. This world reflects off of everyone. When people shut themselves in, so does the world. Because of this, I can not open myself up - until the world opens itself up. Until then, I will continue speaking my fucking mind on the subject while everyone else thinks it is perfectly sane to ignore all of the responsibilities of our world and not say, hey, I should fight for what is right. I will never fucking understand why anyone can be devoured by this fake reality filled with lies. People are too stupid, careless, blind, weak or fearful to fucking face the world for the ugly face that it is. I will continue staring down the black holes of this face every day, and I will continue speaking my mind until the end of time. I'm not the problem here. They are. If I am a problem, because I remind people of a problem that they don't want to resolve because they are a problem themselves, then this world is filled with monkeys lord of all hypocrisy!

Exactly so your just as trapped in societial mentality as every body else only you have resources to post about it on a site focused at it's core about animation and videogames. Hey I should fight for what is right is a great mentallity if you know your limits which you obviously do not. Whats your plan? how are you going to change society for the better? Are you willing to make sacrifices? How doi you plan on being worth an international audience? So far dude I'm sorry but you have nothing to bring to the table but a half baked objective. You can sit there and list crap that's wrong but haven't the slightest idea on how to influence a world of billions of individualistic human beings.