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If you get rid of all the illegal immigrants.
Why is going to work in the feilds & pick your crops that can only be harvested by hand ?
Who are going to take all the menial , maid/gardener/dishwasher/cleaner etc jobs ?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have control of your immigration , just asking a couple questions I have never heard a good answer for , about these low paid jobs you need so many people to do.
Yet so few Americans will do them !

At 4/27/12 06:27 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: its called Mechanization which is widely used for cotton, corn and sugar and other crops, or use college students and and Temp agencies (they find work for you to go to)

Now, I'm not one for the whole "millenials are lazy" argument, cause I know it's a crock of shit, but really? You think college students and temps would do that work?

college/high school students or immigrants with visa's that know a speck of english and are easily exploitable.

Don't fool yourself.

I'm not aruging against the illegal immigrant stance, but fngdbs' point is extremely valid. Anyone who thinks Americans would take up these jobs without some major government oppression is either stupid, high, or both.

At 4/27/12 06:48 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

Now, I'm not one for the whole "millenials are lazy" argument, cause I know it's a crock of shit, but really? You think college students and temps would do that work?

temp work agencies could staff them and yeah people would do it. there are worse jobs that temp agencies put people into. difference is that the farmers don't have to pay the temp agencies when they can pull illegals off the street to do it.

I tried the temp agency thing once. I wound up working at a dock, loading grain onto a barge. you think picking crops is hard labor, try dock work.

At 4/27/12 06:48 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Now, I'm not one for the whole "millenials are lazy" argument, cause I know it's a crock of shit, but really? You think college students and temps would do that work?

You should see some of the shit that temps who go for manual labor wind up doing. Hardest job I've ever done by far. Pay just wasn't worth it, so I went for greener fields.

At 4/27/12 07:45 PM, RacistBassist wrote: You should see some of the shit that temps who go for manual labor wind up doing. Hardest job I've ever done by far. Pay just wasn't worth it, so I went for greener fields.

Your post and Korriken's post both prove the point I was making. Americans hate this kind of work. Sure some will do it for a short while, but they don't do it for long.

To think that the entirity of the illegal populations will be replaced in jobs that Americans don't want and won't hold for a very long time is nothing other than a pipe dream.

At 4/27/12 08:22 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Your post and Korriken's post both prove the point I was making. Americans hate this kind of work. Sure some will do it for a short while, but they don't do it for long.

Oh, I had no problem with the work. I just left because a better paying option opened up for me.

Which, you know, applies to every single job ever, unless the person enjoys doing it. Same thing with fast food and retail. Many people hate it, yet it's always staffed.

To think that the entirity of the illegal populations will be replaced in jobs that Americans don't want and won't hold for a very long time is nothing other than a pipe dream.

The reason Americans don't want them is because of the pay, not because of the work. Who cares about the amount of people who stay in the position? All you need is people willing to do it still, which is not a problem.

At 4/27/12 01:15 AM, Korriken wrote: thats because they went in and only killed the leader. you need to kill the leaders (plural. all of them),

They did. But more popped up, and the new ones on top of that were even more violent.

burn the compound to the ground, and ravage their crop fields.

? Ok so now all Northern Mexicans are connected to the Drug Cartel? That would be so unpopular and would even fuel more support for the Cartels, much like say Israel's bombing of Beruit turned many groups who previously not too anti-Israel (like Hizbollah) into anti-Israeli guerrillas. It would cause such a horrible humanitarian crisis and wouldn't even work and make the problem worse. I mean dear god these kind of policies is exactly what made Iraq such a huge disaster.

Why do the cartels control most of Northern Mexico? because the government didn't hit them hard enough.

No. It's because they're incredibly rich because of the booming drug trade up North, thus they can easily recruit from people who have no real prospects.

Also, there is also the bribery issue with the mexican government and military. This is why I say bring in the Us military to handle it.

You're acting like the US military is the epitome or morality and integrity when it isn't.

the cartels don't have such strong connections to the American Government. Kind of hard to bribe a drone to not drop a canister full of potent herbicide on your coca and marijuana fields, or fire a rocket into your bedroom window late at night while you sleep.

Nope, cocaine is not made in Mexico mostly, it's made in Colombia and Peru it's simply trafficked through Mexico. Also Marijuana is mostly domestic since there's alot of domestic growing in Cali.

But nope, they've made much contact with US officials in fact considering they're bribed border security alot.

I said make it a territory, not annex it. there is a difference. Puerto Rico is a territory, but not annexed.

Um yah it does. Puerto Rico is different since it wants the US funding but it doesn't want to pay taxes thus it's just a Commonwealth of the US.

Overall I'm disturbed by your rhetoric, it reeks of gross miscalculations and a horrible view of the world, last I checked it's 2012 not 1812.

oh and don't forget that the current immigration system is highly inefficient and drives people who would have been accepted legally into the country into breaking the rules anyways.

the fastest way to get into the country legally, is to be a genius, so lets pretend Einstein was from Mexico, if he tried to Immigrate to America, he would have had to wait 5-7 years to do it.

Maybe america should build another wall. That worked well last time.

At 4/27/12 08:43 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 4/27/12 01:15 AM, Korriken wrote: thats because they went in and only killed the leader. you need to kill the leaders (plural. all of them),

They did. But more popped up, and the new ones on top of that were even more violent.

burn the compound to the ground, and ravage their crop fields.

? Ok so now all Northern Mexicans are connected to the Drug Cartel? That would be so unpopular and would even fuel more support for the Cartels, much like say Israel's bombing of Beruit turned many groups who previously not too anti-Israel (like Hizbollah) into anti-Israeli guerrillas. It would cause such a horrible humanitarian crisis and wouldn't even work and make the problem worse. I mean dear god these kind of policies is exactly what made Iraq such a huge disaster.

if you don't destroy the crops they use to produce narcotics, someone is gonna come by, take over the field and like a bunch of cockroaches you thought you wiped out come right back. do a half assed job, get half assed results. it's like gluing a car together instead of welding. first time you take it for a drive it'll just fall apart.

No. It's because they're incredibly rich because of the booming drug trade up North, thus they can easily recruit from people who have no real prospects.

You're acting like the US military is the epitome or morality and integrity when it isn't.

no, but the cartels don't hold sway with the US military either.

Nope, cocaine is not made in Mexico mostly, it's made in Colombia and Peru it's simply trafficked through Mexico. Also Marijuana is mostly domestic since there's alot of domestic growing in Cali.

while this is true, being able to operate in mexico puts us easily in striking distance of their fields.

But nope, they've made much contact with US officials in fact considering they're bribed border security alot.

border patrol isn't the military.

Overall I'm disturbed by your rhetoric, it reeks of gross miscalculations and a horrible view of the world, last I checked it's 2012 not 1812.

*shrug* have it your way, but you don't convince a guy to stop raping your wife and daughter by asking nicely. you shoot em in the face with a 12 gauge as he's kicking in your back door. kill their narcotics crops and watch as their funding dwindles when they can no longer produce drugs because you keep killing their plants. people may point to the amount of money the cartels make, but a good portion of that goes back out to pay their workers, hit men, equipment maintenance, weapons purchases, and to bribe various officials.

cut off their ability to make money, and the cartel WILL collapse under its own weight.

I believe we should have completely open borders and totally unfettered laissez faire free trade but the truth is we indeed do not need illegal immigrants.

Picking oranges isn't profitable with minimum wage at these prices, so essentially it's illegal for americans to pick oranges. Yet at the same time stacking shelves is just as menial and requires about as much skill yet no one bats an eyelid when they see Americans working there and are willing to pay extra to go to these small stores when they could always bulk buy. So shunning agricultural labor is more of a cultural thing than a practical necessity.

Also, migrant laborer programs are often undermanned, they have to compete with the alternative of easily hopping the border with a pound of dope forced into an orifice then working illegally without having to pay taxes.

I don't blame the illegal immigrants though, if the government left people alone there would be no need for them to do things like this in the first place, taxes would be so low immigration wouldn't need to be illegal.

no way will we make mexico a territorry i say we militarize the border use the national guard and reserves and have patrols i mean other countries do it and it works for them

At 4/29/12 07:39 PM, pickdon wrote: no way will we make mexico a territorry i say we militarize the border use the national guard and reserves and have patrols i mean other countries do it and it works for them

Exactly which countries are these?

At 4/29/12 08:13 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: North South koreas, china

You want to mimic the Koreas and China? You know, how Korea has all of 200 miles of border, and how all three have extremely high taxes. Let's also not forget the complete lack of personal freedoms.

At 4/27/12 06:27 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 4/27/12 06:11 PM, morefngdbs wrote: If you get rid of all the illegal immigrants.
Why is going to work in the fields & pick your crops that can only be harvested by hand ?

its called Mechanization which is widely used for cotton, corn and sugar and other crops, or use college students and and Temp agencies (they find work for you to go to)

;;;
I beg to differ.
I live in an Agricultural province which has huge apple industry. The apples have to be picked by hand. They cannot meet the number of people they need each year , college kids won't do it...its too hard & its benaeth them. Unemployed people won't do it...it pays minimum wage...& its too hard. I've been hearing that same song my entire life at harvest time.
This is true for many other fruits & vegetables, harvested & cared for some mechanization but still needed is a human hand.
We bring in workers from Mexica/central America to do it.... great answer Tony DG & a good idea, but it isn't based in reality.
The higher the level of education the more difficult it is to get a person to do meanial (or what they consider to be) labor.

Who are going to take all the menial , maid/gardener/dishwasher/cleaner etc jobs ?

college/high school students or immigrants with visa's that know a speck of english and are easily exploitable.

its easier to peddle drugs & pot than it is to work as a gardener/farmhand... do you have any idea how many menial positions are filled in the USA by latino's ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration
( scroll down to - Structural demand in developed States.)

What the USA could possibly do is use convicts , you've got more people in prison than any other country on earth!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23pri son.12253738.html?_r=1
So use non violent inmates to work for immigrant wages, that are considerable higher than inmate wages

Now lets all stand & crank up that American national anthem....especially for the line "O'er the Land Of The Free " L O L

At 4/29/12 08:49 PM, Camarohusky wrote: You want to mimic the Koreas and China? You know, how Korea has all of 200 miles of border, and how all three have extremely high taxes. Let's also not forget the complete lack of personal freedoms.

I never really understood why people try to compare one countries effective border policy with others. NK and SK is a lot different then the US-Mexico border.

Instead of trying to erect a fence and secure the border, eliminate the incentives for illegals to come here in the first place. The majority cross the border because they know eventually they'll find work and free services, which is what it's all about. Strike the root of the problem.

In a perfect world, we should be going after those who hire them and send a message that they won't be tolerated. Once they know they'll find no quarter here, the number of illegals crossing the border should(in theory, but we know how that turns out) decrease.

But that's probably way too idealistic for the situation, so meh.

At 4/29/12 09:04 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
I beg to differ.
I live in an Agricultural province which has huge apple industry. The apples have to be picked by hand. They cannot meet the number of people they need each year , college kids won't do it...its too hard & its benaeth them. Unemployed people won't do it...it pays minimum wage...& its too hard. I've been hearing that same song my entire life at harvest time.
This is true for many other fruits & vegetables, harvested & cared for some mechanization but still needed is a human hand.
We bring in workers from Mexica/central America to do it.... great answer Tony DG & a good idea, but it isn't based in reality.
The higher the level of education the more difficult it is to get a person to do meanial (or what they consider to be) labor.

^^^
problem (look up)

solution:
simply stop giving all forms of cash assistance (this doesnt include food stamps, partial housing or medical)
your unemployed your forced to go to a temp agency and take what ever you can till u find something better.

problem solved saves taxpayers money and labor jobs will be filled.

am i wrong??

At 4/30/12 04:38 AM, digiman2024 wrote: solution:
simply stop giving all forms of cash assistance (this doesnt include food stamps, partial housing or medical)
your unemployed your forced to go to a temp agency and take what ever you can till u find something better.

Ah, if only it were an employee's market. Even then, this would lead to massive underemployment.

At 4/30/12 04:38 AM, digiman2024 wrote: solution:
simply stop giving all forms of cash assistance (this doesnt include food stamps, partial housing or medical)
your unemployed your forced to go to a temp agency and take what ever you can till u find something better.

;;;
You can't force people to work, that's the whole problem.
Secondly a service job as a dishwasher or server pays as well as a field laborer, & isn't a physically demanding.
So they would go for a job like that, leaving the crops rotting in the feilds once again.

problem solved saves taxpayers money and labor jobs will be filled.

am i wrong??

THe problem is the work done by farm hands isn't paid well enough. The attempts to keep costs low is a middle man scheme to maximize their profit. In NS where I live , the large big box grocery stores will purchase a farmers entire crop, at a reduced price. He takes that price & he knows he has a place to sell his fresh goods. If not he risks losing part maybe most of his crop to the inability to get it to a market(s)
In PEI the potato capital of Canada, the big french fry companies & big box stores guarantee to take all you can grow at a predetermined price.
You can go to supermarket & buy 10lbs of spuds for 2.5 to 3 dollars, yet the farmer makes double his profit by selling bags for 1.5 dollars at the end of his drive way or on week ends at a farmers market.
the problem is he has 2000 or more acres of potato's planted so tens of thousands of pounds& he just doesn't have access to the amount of people he needs to access to sell them before they go bad, or doesn't have the storage capability etc.

Its a big problem & the mark up by the middle man is where small operators can sell you fresh produce at harvest time for a lower price than the big box markets, & they are making 2 or more times the price a large farmer is getting !

At 4/30/12 06:01 PM, morefngdbs wrote: ;;;
You can't force people to work, that's the whole problem.
Secondly a service job as a dishwasher or server pays as well as a field laborer, & isn't a physically demanding.
So they would go for a job like that, leaving the crops rotting in the feilds once again.

how many of them jobs are available?? you can force people to work, stop giving them hand outs. i know several people who collect unemployment and many dont even look for work till it runs out. (what is it now 99 weeks i think) thats the problem we coddle people too much, as i wrote above im not saying we get rid of all assistance just cash assistance.(and no im not including disability) if you have no money you will do whatever you have to to get some.

THe problem is the work done by farm hands isn't paid well enough. The attempts to keep costs low is a middle man scheme to maximize their profit. In NS where I live , the large big box grocery stores will purchase a farmers entire crop, at a reduced price. He takes that price & he knows he has a place to sell his fresh goods. If not he risks losing part maybe most of his crop to the inability to get it to a market(s)
In PEI the potato capital of Canada, the big french fry companies & big box stores guarantee to take all you can grow at a predetermined price.
You can go to supermarket & buy 10lbs of spuds for 2.5 to 3 dollars, yet the farmer makes double his profit by selling bags for 1.5 dollars at the end of his drive way or on week ends at a farmers market.
the problem is he has 2000 or more acres of potato's planted so tens of thousands of pounds& he just doesn't have access to the amount of people he needs to access to sell them before they go bad, or doesn't have the storage capability etc.

i dont know enough about canada's agriculture economy to say much. but i do know the in the US potatoes are harvested by mechines for the most part. this same program has been successful in some rural areas in Montana with oilfield and ranch hands. average length of time on welfare/unemployment is about 3 weeks (of course im going by stats that i remember from when i lived there in 06)

At 4/30/12 07:38 PM, digiman2024 wrote: how many of them jobs are available?? you can force people to work, stop giving them hand outs. i know several people who collect unemployment and many dont even look for work till it runs out. (what is it now 99 weeks i think) thats the problem we coddle people too much, as i wrote above im not saying we get rid of all assistance just cash assistance.(and no im not including disability) if you have no money you will do whatever you have to to get some.

this is just absolutely terrible, how could you keep a straight face typing this? this is your plan? cut the lifeline these people are on in the hopes that *poof* they'll magically be able to get a job? like, they were somehow faking the fact that they cant find someone to employ them? just what do you think is going to happen? this would be absolutely devastating.

At 4/25/12 01:13 AM, Korriken wrote: ahh hell, they would jump at the idea. we get better burritos and they get jobs worth:

if you like, read the news, or something, you would know that mexicans arent that interested in coming to america. they actually wanna get the fuck out.

or you would know about georgia's crop problem due to a law driving illegal immigrants out. good job, georgia!

oh, here is a real shocker: immigration from Mexico to the United States has dropped to its lowest level in decades

sorry but if you really think illegal immigration is a serious issue you need to get your head out of your ass and stop listening to conservative shitheels because the only problem with illegal immigration is there isnt enough of it.

At 4/30/12 08:00 PM, Kidradd wrote:

At 4/30/12 07:38 PM, digiman2024 wrote: how many of them jobs are available?? you can force people to work, stop giving them hand outs. i know several people who collect unemployment and many dont even look for work till it runs out. (what is it now 99 weeks i think) thats the problem we coddle people too much, as i wrote above im not saying we get rid of all assistance just cash assistance.(and no im not including disability) if you have no money you will do whatever you have to to get some.

this is just absolutely terrible, how could you keep a straight face typing this? this is your plan? cut the lifeline these people are on in the hopes that *poof* they'll magically be able to get a job? like, they were somehow faking the fact that they cant find someone to employ them? just what do you think is going to happen? this would be absolutely devastating.

if you read the thread you would have seen that we were talking about temp agencies and farm hands while stopping illegal immigration. so yes if you look at all employment fields yes u can find work. personally i'm currently in such a situation where i am working nights (doing manual labor) and going to school during the day, because the feds say i cant drive a truck because i'm diabetic. am i making what i did when driving truck, no im not, nor did i go crying to welfare so i can get a check. (or unemployment for that matter) i went to a temp agency got a night labor job and started going back to school to change careers. with no help from the government. so yes work is out there if your willing to look for it. but as long as the government hands out money for you to sit on your ass, people would rather do that.

At 4/30/12 08:28 PM, digiman2024 wrote: if you read the thread you would have seen that we were talking about temp agencies and farm hands while stopping illegal immigration. so yes if you look at all employment fields yes u can find work. personally i'm currently in such a situation where i am working nights (doing manual labor) and going to school during the day, because the feds say i cant drive a truck because i'm diabetic. am i making what i did when driving truck, no im not, nor did i go crying to welfare so i can get a check. (or unemployment for that matter) i went to a temp agency got a night labor job and started going back to school to change careers. with no help from the government. so yes work is out there if your willing to look for it. but as long as the government hands out money for you to sit on your ass, people would rather do that.

ive read the thread, unfortunately. there was some bathsit insane discussion about making mexico an official us territory at the beginning. and this talk about temp agencies only started at the top of this page.

a question for you: why do you think getting help from the government is a bad thing? what percentage of people on welfare and/or unemployment are just mooching off the system? you do know the economy crashed in 2008, right? this affected millions of people who never once thought they would be in the situation they are in/were in, you know this, right? average middle class honest working american citizens. when you have immigrant, you have more mouths to feed. when you have more mouths to feed, you create jobs feeding them. this is axiomatic. the simple fact of illegality has nothing to do with it. if your customers go away, your business shuts down.

At 4/30/12 08:00 PM, Kidradd wrote: this is just absolutely terrible, how could you keep a straight face typing this? this is your plan? cut the lifeline these people are on in the hopes that *poof* they'll magically be able to get a job? like, they were somehow faking the fact that they cant find someone to employ them? just what do you think is going to happen? this would be absolutely devastating.

Getting paid to not work isn't a lifeline when foodstamp programs are already in place. There is absolutely no reason why somebody cannot find any sort of work for 99 weeks. Go to a temping agency, they are always looking for work.

oh, here is a real shocker: immigration from Mexico to the United States has dropped to its lowest level in decades

That might have to do with us cracking down and having more border patrol agents then ever.

At 4/30/12 09:10 PM, RacistBassist wrote:

At 4/30/12 08:00 PM, Kidradd wrote: this is just absolutely terrible, how could you keep a straight face typing this? this is your plan? cut the lifeline these people are on in the hopes that *poof* they'll magically be able to get a job? like, they were somehow faking the fact that they cant find someone to employ them? just what do you think is going to happen? this would be absolutely devastating.

Getting paid to not work isn't a lifeline when foodstamp programs are already in place. There is absolutely no reason why somebody cannot find any sort of work for 99 weeks. Go to a temping agency, they are always looking for work.

yes it is. it absolutely is. permanent positions performed by low-skilled workers are being eliminated altogether and replaced by temporary workers who are not only paid less but have to deal with horrible working conditions. but, who cares, protestant work ethic, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, etc. american companies want to hire people at unskilled wages yet also want them to have skills so that they don't have to train them. look at the increase from 2010 to 2011. once the economy recovers those jobs are still very poorly paying, keeping the people with them below the poverty line.

oh, here is a real shocker: immigration from Mexico to the United States has dropped to its lowest level in decades

That might have to do with us cracking down and having more border patrol agents then ever.

probably less so than you think. i'd expect a net negative when we are offering below market wages for grueling work. the reason that illegal immigration is going down is partly based on the US being less attractive for workers, but also based on the strong negatives associated (deportation, arrest, poor living conditions, etc.) legal immigration doesn't have these negatives, so the US is still more attractive than mexico. we can get lots of immigration (even legal immigration) by giving foreign workers a proper incentive to come north, which has the added bonus of getting american workers interested in getting into these fields....pun not intended :P

i am in favor of increased legal immigration. legal immigration allows us to have all the benefits of illegal, except the benefits that hurt workers to the betterment of employers. illegal immigration allows for greater exploitation and significantly less predictability.