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The Gender Gap

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Camarohusky
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-05 12:04:47 Reply

At 5/4/12 11:57 PM, djack wrote: Let's go with Camaro's example of his wife's office demoting female workers on maternity leave and having a sudden drop in female workers. Were those women being paid less than the men?

My wife was paid a good deal less than the male who started at the same time she did. It was also dman near unanimous in the office that that same male was wholly unqualified and unable to perform the work, while my wife was trusted by many of the bosses as a worker who could bail people out of a serious problem.

Did the quality and/or quantity of work being done by those women decrease when they were pregnant?

No. It was in late spring to early summer when the need for quantity was very low compared to the rest of the year.

Did this happen when the office had to downsize due to economic difficulties that dropped them from employing 40 people to 20?

Nope. The office stayed right around 40 people.

There's a whole bunch of unanswered questions that could drastically change how that situation is viewed. While pregnant women are a topic, do you think it would be right for companies to be forced to provide paid maternity leave? I know Camaro will say yes to that but what about you?

I'm not sure it should necessarily be required, but it very much should be paid for by companies. It's a prudent decision. You can always make more money, but you can't always find star talent.

Isn't it discriminatory to give women more time for getting pregnant than a man could get if he used both his vacation and sick days? Shouldn't new fathers get time off as well to bond with their child?

Maternity leave isn't just for the bonding. The final month of pregnancy and the first few weeks after are very medically sensitive for the mother. That's about 6-8 weeks of maternity leave that is for what we would consider medical needs. For the 4-6 weeks after (going off of the 12 week paradigm) you do have a point.

My counter to that point would be the extreme societal pressure on mothers to be mothers. That is changing with the growth of STADs and all, but my wife felt guilty the first time she didn't spend the entire day with our kid, and that was 3 months after he was born and he was staying with my parents. She still feels guilty for not being home with the kiddo all the time. Society doesn't put that pressure on men. No doubt, I would love to spend more time with my kid, but society teaches us at a very young age that men=breadwinner and women=child raiser. The growth of paternity leave is great, but until we can even out the societal pressure to parent maternity leave isn't as discriminatory as it may look on paper.

Is it right to force someone to pay for a service they're not receiving?

I think of it less as being forced to pay for a service they're not recieving, and more of paying money to retain the worker. I know many very talented women who quit their jobs at a fairly early stage to stay home with their children. By paying for maternity leave a job hopes to incentivize women to choose to retain their job. There is the company in Australia (forgot the name) that not only pays maternity leave, but pays 1.5 time for the first 6 working weeks back, and their mother retention rate is very high.

Out of my current law school class, the majority of the highest ranked graduates are female. That's a lot of great talent that could very well drop out of the workforce prematurely because of motherhood. I know it's an employer's market now, but that will change someday, and then every talented body will be worth their weight in gold.

CaptainCornhole
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-05 20:52:09 Reply

At 5/3/12 08:43 PM, djack wrote: To be fair, "the gender gap" was a misnomer for this thread. Until Captain showed up and pulled arguments out of his cornhole without reading anything other than the thread title it was about the "War on Women".

Your right I didn't read the original post, nor did I intend too. lol

X-Gary-Gigax-X
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-06 13:09:25 Reply

I'm sure everybody knows about the "77% wealth disparity" at this point. My question is this; where did that statistic come from? I want to fully understand how they came about this information.


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bismuthfeldspar
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-07 08:46:06 Reply

At 5/5/12 12:04 PM, Camarohusky wrote: my wife

Imagine a woman who has been told all their life that they are oppressed downtrodden victims was placed in a board room full of banking executives. What do you imagine would happen? Would she feel intimidated and take offense at the slightest thing? Or would she quickly become the center of attention with the suits buzzing around her like bees as she regales them with her wit and charisma making them think "hah, this woman is great, we need her"?

It seems to me like good wholesome all American rugged individualism is a better recipe for equality than wimpy support groups, endless whining and lawsuits.

CaptainCornhole
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-07 09:01:13 Reply

At 5/7/12 08:46 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote: It seems to me like good wholesome all American rugged individualism is a better recipe for equality than wimpy support groups, endless whining and lawsuits.

Damn Straight

Camarohusky
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-07 11:01:42 Reply

At 5/7/12 08:46 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote: It seems to me like good wholesome all American rugged individualism is a better recipe for equality than wimpy support groups, endless whining and lawsuits.

I get it. Women are weak. If only they weren't such pussies, they would never be discriminated against. They need to act more manly. That's their problem. If women were manly, then they'd keep their jobs (but we'd cast them out for being ugly and gruff).

Thank you. You have solved the problem.

bismuthfeldspar
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-07 15:38:53 Reply

At 5/7/12 09:01 AM, CaptainCornhole wrote: Damn Straight

I know right, you'd think people would want to use their freedom.

At 5/7/12 11:01 AM, Camarohusky wrote: They need to act more manly.

That's a bit of a leap, individualism is an abstract concept and largely unrelated to physiology so that couldn't have been what I meant.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious mainstream feminism cannot be relied on to provide practical solutions, I wouldn't even consider someone like Germaine Greer to be an actual feminist, I suppose there are real feminists in positions of influence like Ayan Ali but they all seem to think further progress can only be made through yet more government intervention which at this point has been done to death. It's time for a change of strategy and since individualism is at the heart of feminism it's only logical to start there.

DoctorStrongbad
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-18 15:48:25 Reply

At 5/7/12 08:46 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote: It seems to me like good wholesome all American rugged individualism is a better recipe for equality than wimpy support groups, endless whining and lawsuits.

Support groups are very overrated. I really hate self help groups.


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SmilezRoyale
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-05-31 00:18:23 Reply

I'm actually willing to go along with a few of the things that people on the right want to do to existing laws relating to 'the genders' , though outright bans on abortion are impractical and counterproductive. However since cold reasoning is hard to come by in mainstream discourse, and since the GOP itself isn't interested in cold reasoning, they don't stand a chance at actually convincing people that these laws, with their warm sounding titles, are bad.

If the GOP wanted to strategically pursue a patriarchal agenda, the most effective means of doing so would be to 1. increase female dependence on the state whilst simultaneously causing a US government bankruptcy. I myself would support such a plan though not because I'm particularly interested in patriarchy, which in my mind has a way of limiting the freedom of men. As much as it does the choices of women.

On Free birth control --- Giving out condoms might reduce incidences of pregnancy but the difference here is that the birth control [i'll call it BC for short now] is provided through a mandatory collective insurance pool. This ensures that price ceases to be an object and encourages people to sell birth control to charge otherwise ridiculous prices. BC consumers don't care what the price is because the insurance pays for it. Everyone's rates go up collectively, and we're supposed to call this "free".

And this prediction is not at all unfounded. We know that people using insurance will often choose an expensive drug over a cheaper one even if the expensive one isn't genuinely proven to be any better [and even if it is slightly, doesn't justify the extra price under normal circumstances] because the consumers decision has been corrupted with the knowledge that insurance is paying for it.

I do not buy that it is a health issue, if an insurance company thinks a particular behavior will reduce the risk of getting ill, assuming they are not legally prohibited from doing so, they will typically PAY people [or rather, discount them] for doing so.

In general we can't blame women for voting in their self interest.

If the government offers free X to group Y, group Y collectively was not necessarily up in arms trying to get X beforehand, but if another group Z opposes having to pay for X, then Z is probably going to attract the ire of group Y. The problem isn't X, Y, or Z, it's democracy.

Oh and on this:

"Yeah, welcome to living in a democratic society. You have to pay for shit you don't want. It's the price of entry."

Paying for shit you don't want is also called market failure. [though not very aptly named] This is why I oppose all forms of democracy, both consequentialist and deontological democracy.

As another aside; You can't understand gender politics until you understand how male disposaiblity features in the creation of laws and institutions, both past and present.


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SadisticMonkey
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-06-12 23:23:36 Reply

It's kind of hilarious how liberals are using bullshit terms like "war on women".

Are conservatives waging an actual war on women? No, of course not. So what are they using? The same political process anyone else uses in absolutely every other political cause.

If the populace votes for someone who increases taxes on te rich, is this a "war on the rich"? No, it's "deomocracy" and is to be celebrated. Oh, what's that? Conservatives doing the same thing but with different polices? It's WAR!!

Acts of state are acts of war. Democracy is the violent enforcement of the will of the majority. This is reality and you can't complain about it when you're more than hapy to use it yourself to pursue your own ideological ends.


At 8/16/14 11:58 PM, Feoric wrote:
Remember: he was shot in the back 35 feet away from the police cruiser. That's not up for debate.

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Camarohusky
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-06-12 23:46:58 Reply

At 6/12/12 11:23 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: It's kind of hilarious how liberals are using bullshit terms like "war on women".

Can't spell uninformed troll without "sadisticmonkey".

Are conservatives waging an actual war on women? No, of course not. So what are they using? The same political process anyone else uses in absolutely every other political cause.

... Just ... Someone is like about 10,000 miles away from how things actually are here...

War on Christmas ring a bell?

Acts of state are acts of war. Democracy is the violent enforcement of the will of the majority. This is reality and you can't complain about it when you're more than hapy to use it yourself to pursue your own ideological ends.

Yeah, that's not how American Democracy is supposed to work. The Bill of rights and the equal protection clause were included for a reason.

Memorize
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-06-13 04:49:57 Reply

At 6/12/12 11:46 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
Yeah, that's not how American Democracy is supposed to work. The Bill of rights and the equal protection clause were included for a reason.

Unless you're either rich or middle class, then "equal protection" doesn't apply.

SadisticMonkey
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Response to The Gender Gap 2012-06-13 05:29:52 Reply

At 6/12/12 11:46 PM, Camarohusky wrote: War on Christmas ring a bell?

So cnservatives are really dumb for using that sort of term, but oh hey we'll use it too.

Yeah, that's not how American Democracy is supposed to work. The Bill of rights and the equal protection clause were included for a reason.

Given the majority of the policies that liberals support are unconstitutional, it's a bit rich of you to turn the constitution. More liberal hypocrisy.

What articles is the "war on women" actually in violation.

Oh, and don't say the tenth ammendment, because that would mean that most of your messiah-king obama's policies are unconstituional.


At 8/16/14 11:58 PM, Feoric wrote:
Remember: he was shot in the back 35 feet away from the police cruiser. That's not up for debate.

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