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Current Events in Mali

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Dawnslayer
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Current Events in Mali Apr. 6th, 2012 @ 09:17 PM Reply

For those who don't know.

Does anyone have anything to say on this matter? What do you think are the potential implications? What do you think of the media coverage, assuming you've seen any? How do you think it will end?

Discuss.

Warforger
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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 6th, 2012 @ 09:37 PM Reply

I think it's rather tragic how the one of the few true 3rd world democracies is back into civil war again. But hey what can you do when the Europeans conquer you and force a bunch of people who don't like each other into one country.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Korriken
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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 7th, 2012 @ 01:40 AM Reply

media coverage? what media coverage?

hell I'm amazed Syria is getting any coverage outside of fox news (for obvious reasons)


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 7th, 2012 @ 06:22 AM Reply

I don't think a Tuareg nation state is viable. I understand that the Malinese have been disregarding the Tuaregs for a long time, but they should use the strategic leverage they have now to demand a large degree of autonomy but stay inside Mali. Then the Malinese government and the Tuareg nationalists should together clamp down on the Ansar Dine. Seriously, I cannot imagine any scenario where al-Qaeda gets more power in Mali than they already have without the country degenrating into a second Somalia. Luckily for us, though, the country is landlocked.


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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 7th, 2012 @ 07:18 AM Reply

At 4/7/12 06:22 AM, lapis wrote: Luckily for us, though, the country is landlocked.

So is Afghanistan.


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bismuthfeldspar
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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 8th, 2012 @ 04:17 AM Reply

At 4/6/12 09:37 PM, Warforger wrote: force a bunch of people who don't like each other into one country

Why are you against multiculturalism?

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 8th, 2012 @ 10:14 AM Reply

At 4/8/12 04:17 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
Why are you against multiculturalism?

Forcing one culture upon another never ends well. Just imagine if, say, the Chinese came to your country and tried to force their culture and customs onto you.

wouldn't end well.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 8th, 2012 @ 01:34 PM Reply

At 4/8/12 10:14 AM, Korriken wrote:
At 4/8/12 04:17 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
Why are you against multiculturalism?
Forcing one culture upon another never ends well. Just imagine if, say, the Chinese came to your country and tried to force their culture and customs onto you.

wouldn't end well.

They'd force kung pao chicken on me?

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 8th, 2012 @ 05:49 PM Reply

At 4/8/12 04:17 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
At 4/6/12 09:37 PM, Warforger wrote: force a bunch of people who don't like each other into one country
Why are you against multiculturalism?

Nothing implying people willingly live in such a society. This on the other hand is throwing a bunch of different people together and then neglecting many of them because it looks nice on the map.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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bismuthfeldspar
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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 06:01 AM Reply

At 4/8/12 05:49 PM, Warforger wrote: Nothing implying people willingly live in such a society. This on the other hand is throwing a bunch of different people together and then neglecting many of them because it looks nice on the map.

So the problem is tyranny, not multiculturalism, and since their savage tribal chieftans were fighting each other long before the colonials arrived it doesn't make much difference.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 03:08 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 06:01 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
At 4/8/12 05:49 PM, Warforger wrote: Nothing implying people willingly live in such a society. This on the other hand is throwing a bunch of different people together and then neglecting many of them because it looks nice on the map.
So the problem is tyranny, not multiculturalism,

European Imperialism is not multiculturalism.

At 4/10/12 06:01 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote: and since their savage tribal chieftans were fighting each other long before the colonials arrived it doesn't make much difference.

What? What did they do that makes them savage? Weren't the Colonials fighting the biggest wars in history when that was going on just for pride?


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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bismuthfeldspar
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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 04:21 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 03:08 PM, Warforger wrote: European Imperialism is not multiculturalism.

Uh, that's what I said, the problem with imperialism is tyranny, not that it's multicultural or european socialism, though those things aren't that great either they're not in the same ballpark as tyranny.

What did they do that makes them savage?

Imagine a prison gang had power of life and death over illiterate subsistence farmers/herders, that was pretty much what pre-industrial society amounted to.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 03:55 AM Reply

At 4/10/12 04:21 PM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:

Do you even know why they staged a coup?

The army was rightfully complaining of being under equipment and no trained enough to fight rebel soldiers.
They already handed power civilian government. They clearly only meant good for their country. The Tuareg in the other hand are fighting for their legal claims over some Mali cities, although going around capturing cities is not the best thing to do, they saw this as an opportunity to gain what is theirs when the government is weak.

Before colonialism much of the troubles we see today would've never happened, what they colonists did when they left was split African countries by longitude and latitude according to what they saw fit, which in turn made hundreds if not thousands of different ethnicities and religions all under one rule, which is why most of African countries are in turmoil, because they've all been put together against their wishes.

Because North African countries largely share ethnic and religious backgrounds, you don't see this type of violence.

Your view of Africa as this incapable continent, filled with savages is completely bias and ignorant. If you actually took the time to really identify why there are such problems existing in Africa, you'd realize it is mainly due to the colonial powers, who diced up the borders, stole most of the natural resources, even to this day with their foreign companies and their almost de facto rule of several African countries, propping up dictators and killing them as they wish, squashed different peoples together and had no regard at all to what harm it may cause in the future, they didn't give a shit.

What is also worth noting is usually coups that are not propped by Western governments usually turn out less violent, if they happen at all that is.

bismuthfeldspar
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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 08:33 AM Reply

At 4/11/12 03:55 AM, Cochises wrote: Do you even know why they staged a coup?

A clique of officers saw an opportunity to exploit discontent with the government's handling of the Tuareg rebellion to gain power.

The army was rightfully complaining of being under equipment and no trained enough to fight rebel soldiers.
They already handed power civilian government. They clearly only meant good for their country.

A coup was unnecessary because Touré was losing political power anyway, the political instability only harmed the war effort, they will now have to risk men's lives to recapture lost territory and the war will last longer as a result resulting in more poverty and civilian loss of life.

The Tuareg in the other hand are fighting for their legal claims over some Mali cities

They are fighting because the supply of arms and mercenaries on the Saharran black market increased after the collapse of Libya resulting in a power shift in their favor, all that stuff about ethnicity and shariah law is just propoganda for poor uneducated people which is a factor but that hasn't changed much and it's not as significant as military force.

Before colonialism much of the troubles we see today would've never happened
Your view of Africa as this incapable continent, filled with savages is completely bias and ignorant.
colonial powers even to this day with their foreign companies and their almost de facto rule of several African countries diced up the borders, stole most of the natural resources, propped up dictators and killing them as they wish, squashed different peoples together and had no regard at all to what harm it may cause in the future, they didn't give a shit

Sure, Europeans were savages, but still, Africans were savages also. In the medieval era Europe was full of knights and kings bashing each other's brains out, in the pre-colonial era Africa was full of warriors and chieftans running around stabbing each other, it's just a fact, not sure what you're contesting here.

The Mali Empire for instance once spanned west Africa and among their favorite activities were dicing up borders to divide and conquer, stealing land, salt and gold from conquered peoples, setting up vassal states, killing rival princes and kings on whims and enslaving people. They also supported 10000s of light/medium cavalry lancers with some sporting padded cotton armor, rather like knights except suited to the hot climate.

Because North African countries largely share ethnic and religious backgrounds, you don't see this type of violence.

libya

What is also worth noting is usually coups that are not propped by Western governments usually turn out less violent, if they happen at all that is.

zimbabwe

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 12:07 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 08:33 AM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
A clique of officers saw an opportunity to exploit discontent with the government's handling of the Tuareg rebellion to gain power.

Yes OK, but you know why, because they were understaffed and under equipped to defeat the rebel and Tuareg, who are no easy opponent.

A coup was unnecessary because TourÃf© was losing political power anyway, the political instability only harmed the war effort, they will now have to risk men's lives to recapture lost territory and the war will last longer as a result resulting in more poverty and civilian loss of life.

Are you even following the news? They already handed back power quite awhile ago, and everything seems calm for now.

They are fighting because the supply of arms and mercenaries on the Saharran black market increased after the collapse of Libya resulting in a power shift in their favor, all that stuff about ethnicity and shariah law is just propoganda for poor uneducated people which is a factor but that hasn't changed much and it's not as significant as military force.

Yeah that just a few leaders of the Tuareg, but the real motive of the Tuareg is to obtain their national identity again by capturing their historical lands. The Tuareg are not violent savages as some might think, you are absolutely correct about their use of propaganda and religious talk to manipulate the poor, which does in turn cause riots and tension with others, but that's exactly what their looking for, Mali is almost 100% Muslim populated, and unfortunately a lot of them are illiterate and poor so they'll believe in the bullshit, but even you must still take into account that this was their land, taken away from them by force and they are trying to get their land back, it's really not that hard to understand, in fact I'm pretty sure anybody would act that same.

Sure, Europeans were savages, but still, Africans were savages also. In the medieval era Europe was full of knights and kings bashing each other's brains out, in the pre-colonial era Africa was full of warriors and chieftans running around stabbing each other, it's just a fact, not sure what you're contesting here.
The Mali Empire for instance once spanned west Africa and among their favorite activities were dicing up borders to divide and conquer, stealing land, salt and gold from conquered peoples, setting up vassal states, killing rival princes and kings on whims and enslaving people. They also supported 10000s of light/medium cavalry lancers with some sporting padded cotton armor, rather like knights except suited to the hot climate.

Yes I understand, I'm not blaming all of Africa's problems on the West, really, but the root of most of the conflicts at least in this modern era is due to the colonised period in Africa. Civilizations always conquer and divide, it's a bloody routine in history, all I am stating is that a major part of the conflict we see in West Africa today is due to the colonists, specifically the French.

Interestingly enough, the African countries that were conquered by the English, are a bit better off today, and the French post colonial countries are worse off. French...


Because North African countries largely share ethnic and religious backgrounds, you don't see this type of violence.
libya

Libya was a NATO funded war that did not have to result this way at all, The 2 nations adjacent to Libya had even larger amounts of people and way more brutal police force. Yet it did not happen because their was no foreign intervention to manipulate them, of course Libya was going to become a civil war, how did the idiots in NATO not see that coming?

Because they probably did, you see Libya was not just like it's neighbouring countries fighting for freedom and life. No, Libyans enjoyed extreme benefits, including a tax free country, no interests, by law, about $70000 marriage gift from the late Gaddafi for them to buy their house, free electricity, free healthcare, free water and of course free education.

Why would anybody revolt? You might want to read the facts and how sketchy the whole invasion was, it was one of the few countries that didn't have a central bank.... but of course the "heroes" of Libya quickly went and constructed one right after Gaddafi's death.

The only reason Libya is still in extreme turmoil is because none of those fucking idiots know what their revolting for, in my country Egypt, during the first 18 days at least, no one was fighting one another, same in Tunisia.

.

zimbabwe

According to a military source in Harare, the coup leaders allegedly contacted Western governments and asked them if they would support the coup. "The general feedback was that the western countries would publicly condemn the coup and privately support it only if it would restore democracy in Zimbabwe."[3]

Beware that "restoring" democracy usually means, a puppet who will do the Western world's bidding.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 01:58 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 12:07 PM, Cochises wrote: Libya was a NATO funded war that did not have to result this way at all, The 2 nations adjacent to Libya had even larger amounts of people and way more brutal police force. Yet it did not happen because their was no foreign intervention to manipulate them, of course Libya was going to become a civil war, how did the idiots in NATO not see that coming?

Um, did you keep track of what was going on when the whole thing began? Gaddaffi's top pilots fled to Malta with the nations top jets because they were ordered to fire on protestors. That would tend to dispel much doubt of what the regime was intending.

Because they probably did, you see Libya was not just like it's neighbouring countries fighting for freedom and life. No, Libyans enjoyed extreme benefits, including a tax free country, no interests, by law, about $70000 marriage gift from the late Gaddafi for them to buy their house, free electricity, free healthcare, free water and of course free education.

That's what all the Socialist states promised, that's what the Soviet Union promised, does that mean it's what happened? Does that mean it's what they were able to do? Not necessarily. Even before the whole civil war Gaddaffi was notorious for being delusional, like how he wanted to abolish Switzerland or even calling Obama his son.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1926053,00.htm l
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2009/09/23/qaddafi-lauds-obama-
launches-rambling-attack/

That's not necessarily someone you can trust.

Why would anybody revolt? You might want to read the facts and how sketchy the whole invasion was, it was one of the few countries that didn't have a central bank.... but of course the "heroes" of Libya quickly went and constructed one right after Gaddafi's death.

Well yah, most Libyans lived on very little income and most of the nations income went into the government, why would you need a central bank?

The only reason Libya is still in extreme turmoil is because none of those fucking idiots know what their revolting for, in my country Egypt, during the first 18 days at least, no one was fighting one another, same in Tunisia.

Gaddaffi had been in power for at least 40 years when he was overthrown, I'm sure if he was going to be overthrown now there would be a good and clear reason for it. I think it's more that his people don't want to be associated with Terrorism for one while Gaddaffi had his agents commit terrorist attacks in the past like the Lockerbie bombing as well as throwing in his support for the Taliban and Somali Pirates.

But if anything good came out of Gaddaffi he's at least able to say that he was able to operate outside of Western influence, which is a step in the right direction if anything.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 04:38 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 04:21 PM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
What did they do that makes them savage?
Imagine a prison gang had power of life and death over illiterate subsistence farmers/herders, that was pretty much what pre-industrial society amounted to.

Wow. No Imperialist Arrogance right there. That reminds me of the old discovery of elaborate castles in Mozambique during Imperialist times, when they were discovered people in Europe were fascinated, who built these structures? A great debate followed some people arguing that it was the remains of Atlantis. No one even brought up that it was probably the people who were living there, but no black people were inferior thus could not have possibly done it.

But you didn't answer my question.


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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 12th, 2012 @ 02:18 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 04:38 PM, Warforger wrote: Wow. No Imperialist Arrogance right there. That reminds me of the old discovery of elaborate castles in Mozambique during Imperialist times, when they were discovered people in Europe were fascinated, who built these structures? A great debate followed some people arguing that it was the remains of Atlantis. No one even brought up that it was probably the people who were living there, but no black people were inferior thus could not have possibly done it.

True, those people you describe were fearful of revealing that the root cause of these problems was tyranny because they themselves were tyrants and didn't want anyone to make the connection, so they blamed the problems on genetic inferiority or whatever convenient excuse they could find.

But you didn't answer my question.

As a middle class in a 1st world country you may not be aware of the plethora of thoughts and feelings associated with clan/tribal/gang loyalty or religious/ideological ties as there is not much need for such things so I presented criminal gangs as a contemporary example of this as they go to extreme lengths to strengthen their bonds to each other, getting tattoos all over face and developing their own subculture. They bear many similarities to clan/tribal structures, particularly among the rulers and professional soldiers in pre-industrial society, like the code of bushido, death before dishonor, god save the king, yadda yadda, they were all indoctrinated from infancy to be like this so that they would serve the interests of the clan and the tyrant. We see in North Korea an obvious evolution into monarchy with high ranking generals acting like an aristocracy, they also indoctrinate their soldiers in a similar manner, North Korea could be described as savage, no split hairs there.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 12th, 2012 @ 05:54 PM Reply

At 4/12/12 02:18 PM, bismuthfeldspar wrote: As a middle class in a 1st world country you may not be aware of the plethora of thoughts and feelings associated with clan/tribal/gang loyalty or religious/ideological ties as there is not much need for such things so I presented criminal gangs as a contemporary example of this as they go to extreme lengths to strengthen their bonds to each other, getting tattoos all over face and developing their own subculture.

Great way to start your argument with an insult, it's called a family and nationalism along with pretty much history in general. My point was that such organization does not make anyone savage.

You being a middle class member in a 1st world country will also detach you from Mali, thus you have no idea what the actual history of the region is especially from the perspective from the inhabitance unless you would actually go to do the research which I doubt you do.

At 4/12/12 02:18 PM, bismuthfeldspar wrote: They bear many similarities to clan/tribal structures, particularly among the rulers and professional soldiers in pre-industrial society, like the code of bushido, death before dishonor, god save the king, yadda yadda, they were all indoctrinated from infancy to be like this so that they would serve the interests of the clan and the tyrant. We see in North Korea an obvious evolution into monarchy with high ranking generals acting like an aristocracy, they also indoctrinate their soldiers in a similar manner, North Korea could be described as savage, no split hairs there.

Indoctrination? Oh great then I guess all military advertisements make the US a savage nation too right? I guess the entire Republican party is also savage then as well oh and don't forget religion that's the most savage thing of all! I also assume people like Glenn Beck are also savage too!


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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 13th, 2012 @ 06:44 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 12:07 PM, Cochises wrote: Yes OK, but you know why, because they were understaffed and under equipped to defeat the rebel and Tuareg, who are no easy opponent.

That was a factor but alone wouldn't have been enough to trigger a coup.

They already handed back power quite awhile ago

The rebels made most of their gains in the period between the coup and restored order leaving the government in a far weaker position which will cause no end of problems, so...

in fact I'm pretty sure anybody would act that same

This is true, the Tuareg rebels are seperate from the extremists yet they can't do anything about them because the resources they would lose fighting them exceeds the gains, also they are far from any kind of democracy though that's to be expected I suppose. Maybe we can sign a deal with them in exchange for a "Rohm putsch" of the extremists.

the root of most of the conflicts at least in this modern era is due to the colonised period in Africa
Interestingly enough, the African countries that were conquered by the English, are a bit better off today, and the French post colonial countries are worse off. French...

The root of the problem was the tyrannical regime that preceded these countries, it doesn't really matter whether the rulers are native or foreign, bringing different tribes together to create a modern nation state for the material benefit of all at the expense of redudant cultural differences can be a good thing. The British raj was far more liberal and as a result India inherited the institutions needed to keep order and maintain democracy, or at least the splits with Pakistan and others were a far cry from the totalitarianism of China or endless civil war in Africa.

The 2 nations adjacent to Libya had even larger amounts of people and way more brutal police force
Libyans enjoyed extreme benefits, including a tax free country, no interests, by law, about $70000 marriage gift from the late Gaddafi for them to buy their house, free electricity, free healthcare, free water and of course free education.

So why didn't Tunisia and Egypt crack down on protestors on the same scale as Libya? Also Libya is an oil state like a diluted version of the UAE.

central bank

Whatever the flaws of central banking they're just implementing the tried and tested policies of many other countries, not really suspicious.

"The general feedback was that the western countries would publicly condemn the coup and privately support it only if it would restore democracy in Zimbabwe."[3]
Beware that "restoring" democracy usually means, a puppet who will do the Western world's bidding.

It would also mean Zimbabwe opening up to world trade and foreign investment, more quickly developing an educated middle class, begin the slow evolution towards a real democracy and develop the economy to the point where they can shrug off foreign influence. That doesn't justify neocolonialism of course, I'm saying this would happen in spite of the negative aspects of neocolonialism and generally be for the greater good.

At 4/12/12 05:54 PM, Warforger wrote: insult

Well I just said a few chieftans were savage, I was talking about a few individuals, I don't think in terms of collectives like a communist. It is not unjustified to call certain actions like slavery "savage" and try to ascertain the cause.

My point was that such organization does not make anyone savage.

Ghengis Khan and countless other figures in history who commited savage atrocities had 1000s of ordinary people helping them and these ordinary people like you and I were driven to act so savagely because of how they were raised and indoctrinated. We can see this phenomena countless times through history and in contemporary society in the form of criminal gangs and the examples I've shown to help you understand their mentality. Would you rather be a knight living as a martyr for god in the name of a dream or a serf who never has respite from disease, oppression, hunger and toil in the fields.

all military advertisements make the US a savage nation

It makes the US partially savage, occasionally soldiers who go through the indoctrination process go crazy and act like savages.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17330205

We can ignore this fact or we can learn from it, we can focus on ensuring that soldiers realize they are being drilled so they can act rationally under stress and that this is what they should have pride in or we can be afraid of offending people. I won't use the word "savage" anymore anyway as it's just 1 word, the abstract concept I'm communicating is still correct though.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 13th, 2012 @ 08:06 PM Reply

At 4/13/12 06:44 PM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
At 4/12/12 05:54 PM, Warforger wrote: insult
Well I just said a few chieftans were savage, I was talking about a few individuals, I don't think in terms of collectives like a communist. It is not unjustified to call certain actions like slavery "savage" and try to ascertain the cause.

What? So just a few chieftains are savage. Ok originally I assumed you were saying something completely arrogant and offensive, now you're not even making sense in that manner. And now you're calling me a Communist or at least saying I implied you were one?

At 4/13/12 06:44 PM, bismuthfeldspar wrote:
My point was that such organization does not make anyone savage.
Ghengis Khan and countless other figures in history who commited savage atrocities had 1000s of ordinary people helping them and these ordinary people like you and I were driven to act so savagely because of how they were raised and indoctrinated. We can see this phenomena countless times through history and in contemporary society in the form of criminal gangs and the examples I've shown to help you understand their mentality. Would you rather be a knight living as a martyr for god in the name of a dream or a serf who never has respite from disease, oppression, hunger and toil in the fields.

Of course they have similar structure, because that's basic human society. You're the same way, you're indoctrinated from birth into the values of the society you grew up in. Again you haven't explained why the organization was savage, sure you've said why Genghis Khan's assaults were, but that was all that was savage.

all military advertisements make the US a savage nation
It makes the US partially savage, occasionally soldiers who go through the indoctrination process go crazy and act like savages.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17330205

We can ignore this fact or we can learn from it, we can focus on ensuring that soldiers realize they are being drilled so they can act rationally under stress and that this is what they should have pride in or we can be afraid of offending people. I won't use the word "savage" anymore anyway as it's just 1 word, the abstract concept I'm communicating is still correct though.

The point is, is that you're calling a basic social structure "savage", you are saying that only indoctrination you agree with is not "savage" basically.


"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

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Response to Current Events in Mali Apr. 15th, 2012 @ 04:02 PM Reply

At 4/13/12 08:06 PM, Warforger wrote: I assumed you were saying something completely arrogant and offensive, now you're not even making sense in that manner.

I view people as individuals, not collectives. When I say chieftans are brutal tyrants I'm not saying 100% of the population they rule over are just as brutal, I'm saying the chieftans themselves were tyrants.

And now you're calling me a Communist or at least saying I implied you were one?

Communists were just an example of people who think in terms of collectives.

Of course they have similar structure, because that's basic human society. You're the same way, you're indoctrinated from birth into the values of the society you grew up in.

Societies are often influenced by their rulers, in a democracy people are more likely to think for themselves and indoctrination is less effective, on the other hand a tyranny will suppress free thought and indoctrinate it's population to be obedient to it's commands no matter how immoral resulting in a more primitive uncivilized superstitious society.

The point is, is that you're calling a basic social structure "the S word", you are saying that only indoctrination you agree with is not "the S word" basically.

I wasn't talking in terms of absolutes or collectives, no society is 100% barbaric or 0% barbaric, there are varying levels of barbarism. Of course you can't quantify barbarism accurately but often seemingly subjective measures are accurate enough, a society which chops off the hands of thieves and stones women for adultery is clearly more barbaric than an egalitarian social democracy like Finland.

Cultures are not sacred inviolable entities, they are just a set of ideas, if we entertain the sentimentalist ideal of all the cultures of the world dancing hand in hand in equality all we are doing is allowing emotions to interfere with the formulation of practical solutions to deeply troubled countries like Mali, it is little better than allowing hate to interfere with our thought process. If someone logically proves your culture is inferior in front of your face they have just done you a favor and you should really be thanking them and requesting they use their obviously superior insight and intelligence to help improve your quality of life for the greater good.

Well?