Symbolism in literature.

[Bobbybroccoli]

Am I the only one who thinks school boards make this stuff up half the time?

Symbolism is an important part of literature, and a large part of English courses, but I find it hard to believe that authors actually plan out symbols for every sentence.

My English teacher was telling us that William Golding meant to put symbolism for his choice of diction in Lord of the flies when he wrote "the sun glared disapprovingly at the boys". I'm not saying symbolism non existent, but it's over the whole novel, not each sentence.

According to English teachers, authors out a crap load of symbolism into things that could just as easily been interpreted as symbolism.

Do schools make stuff up to fill up curriculum? Thoughts?

[SKHM]

wait until you have to do marxist/gender/psychoanalytic criticism of literature

that's when the bullshit really starts flowing

[gearsofwhore]

Schools like to make money off of students, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of bogus symbolism classes out there. Unless your becoming an english major there is no reason for you to study symbolism.

[Entice]

At 3/29/12 09:05 PM, Bobbybroccoli wrote: I'm not saying symbolism non existent, but it's over the whole novel, not each sentence.

High school and middle school teachers are just there to drill the basic concepts into your skull. They want you to be very clear on the definitions of this stuff before college so they do go overboard a bit.

Also, I liked the TVTropes article on "faux symbolism". Give it a read, it's very interesting.

[TehPoptartKid]

Well duh, there's tons of symbolism in literature.

Like, the Giver. Good book.

[BrainlessDan]

That is the problem with symbolism, you could ask a 100 different people to to tell you what they think it might mean and you could get a 100 different answers. Sometimes a story is just that, a story.

[VJF]

Sounds more like a metaphor to me. Wouldn't call it symbolism per se, tho.

Or is that a simile; I get those two mixed up.

[RyderOmega]

Literature is just another art form. Anybody can point out symbolism and other points of literary elements such as people do with artwork or music, but it doesn't mean it's there. Maybe it works out as symbolism and the author just coincidentally wrote it in there without really much attention to that small speck of detail.

[Entice]

...but yeah I agree authors use symbolism over the whole book not for every mundane object.

In my English class we were reading the Mayor of Casterbridge and two people met at some old Roman ruins. She asked what it meant and I just said that even in the book people called it a "common meeting place" so it probably doesn't symbolize anything, it's just a nice private meeting place. Sometimes the curtains are just fucking blue you know?

[Bobbybroccoli]

At 3/29/12 09:14 PM, RyderOmega wrote: Literature is just another art form. Anybody can point out symbolism and other points of literary elements such as people do with artwork or music, but it doesn't mean it's there. Maybe it works out as symbolism and the author just coincidentally wrote it in there without really much attention to that small speck of detail.

This is exactly my point. Symbolism is over the whole plot, not the colour of the character's shirt.

[RacistBassist]

Even worse is when teachers try to play the whole "What the author meant doesn't matter, the books really about........"

[Synde]

At 3/29/12 09:43 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Even worse is when teachers try to play the whole "What the author meant doesn't matter, the books really about........"

That's the most horriblest thing I have heard all day.

[Retrospeck]

I dont understand why we have to learn this symbolism bullshit. When are we going to need to use 'symbolism' when were out of school?!

[Jercurpac]

There are whole schools of literary criticism that say an author's intention is the least important aspect to consider when interpreting a book so I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

[DevinArcane]

At 3/29/12 09:05 PM, Bobbybroccoli wrote: Am I the only one who thinks school boards make this stuff up half the time?

School boards, hipster critics, faux intellectuals, etc.

[Ragnarokia]

Writers do do such things sometimes, sometimes. Not all the time. The sentence you gave I don't think there is any symbolism in at all, it is simply a better way of saying "The sun bared down on the worn children", I heavily doubt it has anything to do with such things as "The sun is like society which is frowning on the primitive nature they are withdrawing back to", we all know the book is about such things, but for god sake can't the writer just make a nice sentence without people jumping all over it as meaning some random shit.

[Sensationalism]

I think it's a bit funny when people have all these complex theories of what a book was about and the author goes "no, it was a simple story with nothing more to it". Makes me laugh
Although I do believe that once an artist releases his creation into the world it becomes everyones. If an author meant one thing but I read it and it means something else to me, my interpretation is just as valid.

[PrincessLuna]

They tend to put symbolism into the English Literature curriculum because it encourages critical thinking, which helps build a better mind. The issue is that a lot of students are easily disengaged with such things, and it is a reason to why a lot of education systems in the west are struggle. A lot of countries need an overhaul.

[Halberd]

This is what I'm experiencing right now in English this year...we had a class novel that was full of symbolism and metaphorical shit that I swear was clutching at straws.

On the up side though it does encourage critical thinking and helps with comprehension skills which a lot of people who I do english with need badly...

[The-Great-One]

I will say that there is symbolism in literature. Read "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "Murder on the Orient Express" for more there. However that symbolism requires the reader to see what is laid before them to make their own decisions. The symbolism you're talking about is... "what did the author mean here?"

If the author wanted a meaning to be shown then they would have written it as so. It would have been put eloquently, but you would be able to see it. Now to interpret the story and characters is one thing, but to say "what you believed the author meant when they wrote something" is insulting to the author in a way.

[Revo357912]

At 3/30/12 11:21 AM, PrincessLuna wrote: They tend to put symbolism into the English Literature curriculum because it encourages critical thinking, which helps build a better mind. The issue is that a lot of students are easily disengaged with such things, and it is a reason to why a lot of education systems in the west are struggle. A lot of countries need an overhaul.

Same with some of the math they teach: It is mainly to teach logic, not math.

[Finalfina]

Just assume that everyone is Jesus.

[Tydusis]

Does every important plot point have a message? Probably, if not always. Does every detail carry some symbolism or metaphor? Probably not, although some authors may knowingly or unknowingly apply some kind of message or personal effect relating to something in the world to everything in story. The color of the main character's shirt may be the author's favorite color, or it may serve as a message or subtle detail to the character that may give insight into a character. A grey shirt could be used to express dullness or neutrality, or it could even be used to express that not everything is black and white. Or it could simply just be grey. And the author may or may not be fully aware of all the interpretations and may or may not use ambiguity to an effect.
An example that comes to mind is a depressed father who lost his son in gun accident sitting down looking down at the gun in his hands, lost in thought. What do you think is going through his mind? Reminiscence, suicide, guilt, or about to go psychotic? Without saying more about this situation, any one of those could be true.
A rule of thumb I follow is "the more details that given, the more messages the author is trying to convey" whether it is internal to the plot or external to the world.

[Dogbert581]

I am also often annoyed at how every little thing is symbolism. Fair enough there is symbolism in the book (eg Aslan is Jesus in Chronicles of Narnia) but theres no need to make every thing written fit that symbolism (eg Aslan's walk through the wood symbolises Jesus's use of wood when he helped Joseph in his carpenter's shop) sometimes the sentence means exactly what it says.

Original sentence: 'The curtains were blue'

Student's interpretation: The blue here obviously symbolises how the character is feeling, he is depressed and feeling blue

Teacher's interpretation: The curtains are used to hide away the outside world and therefore show how the character wants to hide his troubles away instead of confronting them

Author's meaning: The curtains were fucking blue

[Tydusis]

At 3/30/12 03:28 PM, Dogbert581 wrote: Author's meaning: The curtains were fucking blue

In all likely hood, this is the case. But if you want to analyze it, you could say the author was sad at the time. I don't know.

There is as much or as little meaning to everything as you want to see in it.

[Revo357912]

Just think of it as an early form of psychology.

[RacistBassist]

At 3/30/12 02:00 PM, Finalfina wrote: Just assume that everyone is Jesus.

Doing this, communism/capitalism, and sexuality were my favorites to do when forced to right what the book was symbolic of.

[Narusegawa]

Well, it might be a bit more important than people think. It not only helps a lot for understanding literature but also general things like critical thinking, reflection on meaning beyond superficial levels and so on.

BUT: ! : I do agree on that some take it too far, not every word in a novel is necessarily a metaphor for humankind and its struggle for knowledge.

[Xcution]

At 3/30/12 05:36 PM, Narusegawa wrote:

Congratulations girl, you have hit the mark. We could not agree with you less.

[RacistBassist]

At 3/30/12 05:36 PM, Narusegawa wrote: Well, it might be a bit more important than people think. It not only helps a lot for understanding literature but also general things like critical thinking, reflection on meaning beyond superficial levels and so on.

Except a huge part of critical thinking is that sometimes, two bushes are just some bushes, and not a forest that you need to look past the bushes to see. It does not help literature, it complicates it.

BUT: ! : I do agree on that some take it too far, not every word in a novel is necessarily a metaphor for humankind and its struggle for knowledge.

A lot of novels don't intend in anyway to be an allegory of any kind.