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At 3/28/12 06:13 PM, Gobblemeister wrote: Jesus had to die so that he could be raised from the dead.

Jesus' resurrection is pretty much the focal point of Christianity, it was the reason God incarnated his son as a man on earth.

Shorten those lines to one word: Zombie!

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At 3/28/12 06:06 PM, Rapacity wrote: If Jesus was the Son of God, why didn't he escape from the cross just before he died, thus allowing him to suffer crucifixion but not his bodily death?

Any opinions on this, it seems odd is all.

Well, to explain it, you first have to look at why he's there in the first place. His purpose of being in this world was to first teach and worship to God in order to help others hear about Him but also as a sacrifice to counterbalance the sins that had and were to accumulate after his death. If he'd have fought against the crucifixion and left, those sins would have still been bound to the masses. In the time before that, he prayed and asked if there was any other way but there was none. One of the problems from all this is that people accidentally worship Jesus as God when he was really just a tool used by Him to balance things out. He alone didn't have any power. It was all from God.

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At 3/28/12 08:46 PM, Rapacity wrote: Okay you all say that Jesus had to die in order to save us from our sins... well, if he was half-God, why couldn't he have ordered himself to immediately have been struck dead by God? Why the cruelty of suffering during the crucifixion, why not heart attack or whatever?

He wasn't half-God to begin with, he came here not through a godly birth but a human birth. Jesus had to take on the suffering of the world's sins in order to actually "pay" for the sins. We wouldn't learn anything from the atonement if he didn't go through what we all have to go through.

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At 3/29/12 08:54 AM, Silverdust wrote:
I take it you are very unfamiliar with the story of His life. That, or you seem to think first century Israel behaved just like twenty-first century America.

Did you read my post? The fuck is this?

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At 3/29/12 02:06 PM, JBKalso wrote:

At 3/29/12 08:54 AM, Silverdust wrote:
I take it you are very unfamiliar with the story of His life. That, or you seem to think first century Israel behaved just like twenty-first century America.

Did you read my post? The fuck is this?

I did, in fact. I imagine you know the "cliffnotes" of a few events rather than the actual accounts. However, it appeared as if you are/were more concerned about what happened during His teenage years rather than the many trials and accomplishments that were made in His adult years (which are much more relatable than perhaps a "young Jesus"). The social life of a child in those times was nowhere near like it is today. Moreover, his leadership, miracles, and progressions were made as an adult - not a child or teenager. If anything, we are to understand that He grew up as a normal, average boy. And He did. (Luke 2:52)

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At 3/29/12 02:35 PM, Silverdust wrote: Moreover, his leadership, miracles, and progressions were made as an adult - not a child or teenager.

I will add that we do have the account of Him teaching the teachers (at a synagogue) as a boy. But, I personally do not believe it was recorded as a means to make Him more "relatable" as human. Also, I would not attribute this to his campaigns.

Hope I clarified.

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At 3/29/12 02:41 PM, Silverdust wrote:

At 3/29/12 02:35 PM, Silverdust wrote: Moreover, his leadership, miracles, and progressions were made as an adult - not a child or teenager.

I will add that we do have the account of Him teaching the teachers (at a synagogue) as a boy. But, I personally do not believe it was recorded as a means to make Him more "relatable" as human. Also, I would not attribute this to his campaigns.

Hope I clarified.

The reason it is not relatable is because he was never truly human because he could not sin. We are told to live up to a man that never felt the way we felt. It called him human but that was only so that he could die and of course he came back to life because he was not human at all. The way I see the story God had the chance to feel exactly like us and truly understand us through personal experience. Jesus however could not sin and was perfect in every way just like when he was God. The one imperfectiom mentioned in the bible was that he was poor. This WAS written for us to relate to him but it isnt because he was right away treated like a king and was perfect in every way while humans are imperfect and that makes us human.

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At 3/29/12 02:47 PM, JBKalso wrote: The reason it is not relatable is because he was never truly human because he could not sin.

This is not true. He was perfectly able to sin and was tempted to do so multiple times.

It called him human but that was only so that he could die and of course he came back to life because he was not human at all.

He was human, because only a human would be able to be judged by the actions of a human.

The one imperfectiom mentioned in the bible was that he was poor.

Actually the idea that Jesus was perfect was based on the way He lived. He was not inherently "perfect" except that He was not born into sin. In other words, and I know this statement was based on your original premise, He started out without sin and was/is perfect because He resisted the urge to do wrong.

I suppose I misunderstood your suggestions. They seemed to be more focused on physical relation rather than moral.

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Jesus blows men and guzzles semen

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At 3/29/12 02:45 PM, Ilssm wrote: What's with you and stirring up trouble?

Well if you're too stupid as a Christian to answer these basic questions, and roll with so simple a punch, maybe it's time to start questioning your faith.

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At 3/28/12 06:06 PM, Rapacity wrote: If Jesus was the Son of God, why didn't he escape from the cross just before he died, thus allowing him to suffer crucifixion but not his bodily death?

Any opinions on this, it seems odd is all.

He had to die to forgive you of your sins

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At 3/28/12 06:06 PM, Rapacity wrote: If Jesus was the Son of God, why didn't he escape from the cross just before he died, thus allowing him to suffer crucifixion but not his bodily death?

Any opinions on this, it seems odd is all.

Not an opinion, this is what I know from reading the Bible:

Jesus had to suffered an earthly death to shed his blood and make it back from death and show humans that he defeated death and can cover the cost of our sins. Getting crucified and escaping the cross wouldn't symbolize defeating death if he didn't die.....He purposely did it to shed his blood, in order to cover for our sins, being the ultimate sacrifice. After Jesus came back from the grave, there was no more need to use lambs other animals as sacrifices anymore. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.

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At 3/30/12 02:59 AM, itchyclothing wrote: Jesus blows men and guzzles semen

The Talmud says Jesus is a filthy goyim who is in hell being killed by boiling hot semen.

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You peeople dont care.

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Because Christ (and as a result, Christians) would rather take the right path rather than the easy (left) path that lazy atheists take.

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At 3/30/12 02:59 AM, itchyclothing wrote: Jesus blows men and guzzles semen

What compelled you to say this?

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At 3/30/12 01:26 PM, Slint wrote:

At 3/30/12 02:59 AM, itchyclothing wrote: Jesus blows men and guzzles semen

What compelled you to say this?

No reason

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So a lot of people are talking about one of the more common sense facts about the(As far as I'm concerned) fictional telling of Jesus Christ's life and death.

Presuming for a moment that this story is true, and that everyone here is right, that JEsus did indeed have to die in order for our sins to be forgiven, I must point out that this would make God a wholly incompetent retard.

The real question is: Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself(or, depending on your view of how the trinity works, sacrifice his son, to himself) in order to forgive us of all of our sins?

The stupidity and inanity of this plan just outlines one consistent behavioral attribute of Yahweh. He fails at this kind of stuff.

He creates people to love him, then creates a tree that he's fully aware will tempt them, and that they will fall to the temptation. So he casts them out and curses them with original sin. He wipes out the world with a global flood because people are too evil for his liking, he wipes out whole cities because their sexual deviancy has reached a point that he can't stand, he wipes out a tower and changes people's languages because he doesn't want anyone to try and come see him, and now, when everyone is doing as he planned(not liking each other and as a result being even more sinful) he has to send his son(or himself) down and have them brutally murdered on a traditional execution device in order to be able to forgive them.

It's failure after failure after failure after failure and people think this story is in some way...uplifting?

Here's a better idea: Just forgive us.

Some of you might ask, "Yeah but then he'd have to forgive the rapists and the mass murderers and the pedophiles, etc." And my response is: Forgiving these people is far more just than sending them to hell for eternity. Or, depending on your view of hell, obliterating their soul just because they were unconvinced that 2000 years ago some guy performed magic and died, JUST FOR THEM.

While I'm at it let's look at the incompetency of this nonsense of vicarious redemption.

I'll make this quick: Would it be just, if I killed 10 people, for my mother to step forward and say, "Release him, I'll do his time for him."?

No? Then this Jesus nonsense is retarded.

Some have asked me before if I would have stopped the crucifixion if I had existed at that time. My answer is yes. Why would ANYONE want this? Why would ANYONE except this? This barbaric act of blood sacrifice at the hands of roman soldiers and jewish peoples in order to be saved from your own sin? I would reject it outright even if I knew it was true. I'm too good a person to accept such barbaric actions as being just, and then say, "Thank you, for killing him."

And another flaw with this shit is that JEsus didn't suffer what we're all bound to suffer if we reject this 'gift', so how in the hell(no pun intended) is this considered a 'sacrifice'? Suffer in hell for three days, come back and rule the universe alongside daddy? How is that a sacrifice? HOW? Someone answered this once by saying "god gave up his fleshly body for you." To which I ask, "IF he's god, can't he make another?" There are so many internal problems with this story of Jesus and the cross I simply have to ask anyone who believes it to be a good story...have you really even thought about it?

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At 3/31/12 07:55 AM, BigLundi wrote: The real question is: Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself(or, depending on your view of how the trinity works, sacrifice his son, to himself) in order to forgive us of all of our sins?

Because, he needed a good way to show is this was how it was going to work from now on, not only is it great symbolism but look, 2000 years later and we're still chatting about the guy.

The stupidity and inanity of this plan just outlines one consistent behavioral attribute of Yahweh. He fails at this kind of stuff.

He creates people to love him, then creates a tree that he's fully aware will tempt them, and that they will fall to the temptation.

My parents let me make my own mistakes too.

So he casts them out and curses them with original sin. He wipes out the world with a global flood because people are too evil for his liking, he wipes out whole cities because their sexual deviancy has reached a point that he can't stand, he wipes out a tower and changes people's languages because he doesn't want anyone to try and come see him, and now, when everyone is doing as he planned(not liking each other and as a result being even more sinful) he has to send his son(or himself) down and have them brutally murdered on a traditional execution device in order to be able to forgive them.

God, obviously planned tough love until civilisation reached a certain point and he could ease up on us, also if any of us saw God our minds would explode, bringing down babel did us a favour.

It's failure after failure after failure after failure and people think this story is in some way...uplifting?

It's provided support for billions of people yes.

Here's a better idea: Just forgive us.

I'll make this quick: Would it be just, if I killed 10 people, for my mother to step forward and say, "Release him, I'll do his time for him."?

No? Then this Jesus nonsense is retarded.

Well that's not how it works, Jesus crucifixion opened the door to salvation, we have to work through it ourselves. A more accurate analogy would have been that in the old testament, God was the police and if we broke the law we would go to jail no matter what. Due to Jesus's sacrifice, God is now the mother and even if we kill 10 people, He still loves us.

Some have asked me before if I would have stopped the crucifixion if I had existed at that time. My answer is yes. Why would ANYONE want this? Why would ANYONE except this? This barbaric act of blood sacrifice at the hands of roman soldiers and jewish peoples in order to be saved from your own sin? I would reject it outright even if I knew it was true. I'm too good a person to accept such barbaric actions as being just, and then say, "Thank you, for killing him."

Any good person would want to stop Jesus's crucifixtion, it's a horrific thing and it's a sign of Gods love that his earthly representative went through it for us. We don't deserve it, but he did it for us.

And another flaw with this shit is that JEsus didn't suffer what we're all bound to suffer if we reject this 'gift', so how in the hell(no pun intended) is this considered a 'sacrifice'? Suffer in hell for three days, come back and rule the universe alongside daddy? How is that a sacrifice? HOW? Someone answered this once by saying "god gave up his fleshly body for you." To which I ask, "IF he's god, can't he make another?" There are so many internal problems with this story of Jesus and the cross I simply have to ask anyone who believes it to be a good story...have you really even thought about it?

Jesus sacrificed his humanity. Before crucified he would have been filled with fear, doubt, anger. Yet he loved us enough to trust that he was doing the right thing.

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At 3/31/12 08:12 AM, SnoopyChicken wrote: Because, he needed a good way to show is this was how it was going to work from now on, not only is it great symbolism but look, 2000 years later and we're still chatting about the guy.

I can only presume you say this because you're aware blood sacrifice for the redemption of sin was a regular thing prior to Jesus, and that Jesus was supposed to be "the end of that". Well, I'd like to point out that if this was how he decided he needed the world to be run later on, why in the hell didn't he make the world like that in the first place? He creates the rules. He doesn't have to have blood sacrifice be in any way necessary from beginning to end, yet he did...why? Well according to the bible because he loved the smell of burning animal carcasses.

This isn't loving, it's sadistic, and he decided to stop being AS sadistic for some internally inconsistent reason, so he decided to 'end' the necessity.

Yet again, god's either exceedingly incompetent or a maliciously assholish son of a bitch.

My parents let me make my own mistakes too.

No they don't. They try to stop you from making mistakes that will ruin your life. And if they don't they're shitty parents.

Your parents try to stop you from drinking and driving, your parents try to stop you from hanging out with bad people, your parents try to stop you from developing harmful habits.

And again, if they don't, they're shitty parents.

God, obviously planned tough love until civilisation reached a certain point and he could ease up on us, also if any of us saw God our minds would explode, bringing down babel did us a favour.

...Did you just call mass genocide 'tough love'? Seriously. Think about that for a moment and get back to me.

Also, if seeing god would make our minds explode, then clearly we don't see him in heaven either right? Nor do we see him when he judges us, so we never see him, even when we die. Bit of an elusive bastard isn't he? Also, why is he incapable of just creating a body that can be seen without blowing people's minds? Why is that impossible for him? Fictional gods use avatars to communicate with their worshipers all the time, Why is Yahweh too much of a dunderhead to pull it off? Especially since that would convince a shit ton of people right now that don't believe in him(like myself) and hence, save them from hell. Again, incompetency.

It's failure after failure after failure after failure and people think this story is in some way...uplifting?

It's provided support for billions of people yes.

That's sad for those billions of people then. Doesn't provide support for me. And I maintain...for good reason.

Well that's not how it works, Jesus crucifixion opened the door to salvation, we have to work through it ourselves. A more accurate analogy would have been that in the old testament, God was the police and if we broke the law we would go to jail no matter what. Due to Jesus's sacrifice, God is now the mother and even if we kill 10 people, He still loves us.

...No...All one has to do is accept Jesus' sacrifice. That's all one has to do. Or don't you remember the christian reaction with Jeffrey Dahmer? Who, right before execution, accepted Jesus? And this led religious leaders to say, "See how forgiving God is? That man is now a changed man and in heaven, saved through the blood of christ!"

I call hax.

Any good person would want to stop Jesus's crucifixtion, it's a horrific thing and it's a sign of Gods love that his earthly representative went through it for us. We don't deserve it, but he did it for us.

...So we should want to have stopped the crucifixion if we're good people, but God's an even better person for making it happen?

You can't have it both ways son. One or the other. Either it's good to stop it or good to help it, you can't have it good either way.

Jesus sacrificed his humanity. Before crucified he would have been filled with fear, doubt, anger. Yet he loved us enough to trust that he was doing the right thing.

Fear, doubt, and anger? HE knew it was coming, knew he would die, and knew that he was the son of god(or god, whatever), and would be in heaven ruling alongside his father(or by himself). What exactly...did he have to be afraid of? A moment's pain? And that really is what it is to him, a MOMENT'S pain, in the perspective of someone that has an eternal soul(or is the eternal being god).

In fact, Mother Theresa liked to point out to those suffering that their suffering was only the blink of an eye in the perspective of their eternal lives where they'll spend their time with JEsus. That the more suffering we go through is just God testing us, and we should love all of it, because through the perspective of an eternal life coming at you in the form of going to heaven, no amount of suffering in this world is anything.

I personally find this kind of rhetoric to be abhorrent, but you get the idea, Jesus didn't 'fear' or 'doubt' or 'be angry'. And if you cite the passage, "God why hath thou forsaken me?" I would like to point out that each book's retelling of the story has him saying something different, so that doesn't count.

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At 3/31/12 08:32 AM, BigLundi wrote: I can only presume you say this because you're aware blood sacrifice for the redemption of sin was a regular thing prior to Jesus, and that Jesus was supposed to be "the end of that". Well, I'd like to point out that if this was how he decided he needed the world to be run later on, why in the hell didn't he make the world like that in the first place? He creates the rules. He doesn't have to have blood sacrifice be in any way necessary from beginning to end, yet he did...why? Well according to the bible because he loved the smell of burning animal carcasses.

It was a good way for man to pay homage to their creator at the time, as the world moved on so did god. If your kid draws you some shitty drawing of you he made in school do you tear it up and tell him to fuck off and do better? No, you stick it on the fridge and no that in time he will learn to draw better and you appreciate what heâEUTMs given you so far.

This isn't loving, it's sadistic, and he decided to stop being AS sadistic for some internally inconsistent reason, so he decided to 'end' the necessity.

Why is it sadistic? God created animals without souls, as long as we are respectful of them it isnâEUTMt sadistic, and sacrificing them to God is a great sign of respect

Yet again, god's either exceedingly incompetent or a maliciously assholish son of a bitch.

He gave man free will, man chose to constantly fuck up. ItâEUTMs all well and good saying he created the rules, but theirs one thing God didnâEUTMt write a rulebook for. Us.

No they don't. They try to stop you from making mistakes that will ruin your life. And if they don't they're shitty parents.

If my kid wants to smoke, then IâEUTMll be disappointed in him but he makes his own choices. I canâEUTMt rule my kids lives.

Your parents try to stop you from drinking and driving, your parents try to stop you from hanging out with bad people, your parents try to stop you from developing harmful habits.

They teach me a set of morals and give me instructions, doesnâEUTMt mean IâEUTMll follow them.

And again, if they don't, they're shitty parents.

Because I donâEUTMt do as IâEUTMm told theyâEUTMre shitty parents? Mmkay.

...Did you just call mass genocide 'tough love'? Seriously. Think about that for a moment and get back to me.

Absolutely, for a God, genocide is tough love.

Also, if seeing god would make our minds explode, then clearly we don't see him in heaven either right? Nor do we see him when he judges us, so we never see him, even when we die. Bit of an elusive bastard isn't he?

We donâEUTMt have minds in heaven, we become ethereal and greater. We canâEUTMt see heaven right now either, but obviously when we will die we will see it. Same with God.

Also, why is he incapable of just creating a body that can be seen without blowing people's minds? Why is that impossible for him? Fictional gods use avatars to communicate with their worshipers all the time, Why is Yahweh too much of a dunderhead to pull it off? Especially since that would convince a shit ton of people right now that don't believe in him(like myself) and hence, save them from hell. Again, incompetency.

Jesus, the guy we are talking about? Yeah, he was God.

That's sad for those billions of people then. Doesn't provide support for me. And I maintain...for good reason.

Why is that sad for them? If they get comfort from it then thatâEUTMs a good thing. If you donâEUTMt thatâEUTMs a real shame.

...No...All one has to do is accept Jesus' sacrifice. That's all one has to do. Or don't you remember the christian reaction with Jeffrey Dahmer? Who, right before execution, accepted Jesus? And this led religious leaders to say, "See how forgiving God is? That man is now a changed man and in heaven, saved through the blood of christ!"

I call hax.

God can see into peoples hearts and if they are truly sorry for their crimes and truly accept Jesus why shouldnâEUTMt they be forgiven?

...So we should want to have stopped the crucifixion if we're good people, but God's an even better person for making it happen?

You can't have it both ways son. One or the other. Either it's good to stop it or good to help it, you can't have it good either way.

Why canâEUTMt I have it. WeâEUTMre good people for waiting to stop it, but to have the strength and courage to go through that sacrifice is something else. You are very narrow minded if you donâEUTMt understand that.

Fear, doubt, and anger? HE knew it was coming, knew he would die, and knew that he was the son of god(or god, whatever), and would be in heaven ruling alongside his father(or by himself). What exactly...did he have to be afraid of? A moment's pain? And that really is what it is to him, a MOMENT'S pain, in the perspective of someone that has an eternal soul(or is the eternal being god).

Because he believed it was still coming. I believe I will be accepted into heaven upon my death. Would I want to be raped and tortured to death because IâEUTMll get an eternity of happiness? No
If a Christian dies trying to save a child from a burning building is his sacrifice not heroic because they believed they would live on? Of course itâEUTMs still heroic.

In fact, Mother Theresa liked to point out to those suffering that their suffering was only the blink of an eye in the perspective of their eternal lives where they'll spend their time with JEsus. That the more suffering we go through is just God testing us, and we should love all of it, because through the perspective of an eternal life coming at you in the form of going to heaven, no amount of suffering in this world is anything.

All true

I personally find this kind of rhetoric to be abhorrent, but you get the idea, Jesus didn't 'fear' or 'doubt' or 'be angry'. And if you cite the passage, "God why hath thou forsaken me?" I would like to point out that each book's retelling of the story has him saying something different, so that doesn't count.

Actually that is the only part that appears in more than one Gospel. That is how important that moment was.

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At 3/31/12 07:55 AM, BigLundi wrote: The real question is: Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself(or, depending on your view of how the trinity works, sacrifice his son, to himself) in order to forgive us of all of our sins?

I wonder if you are genuinely interested in the answer to this question (which can be, and has been answered very simply) without having to resort to wildly arrogant insults and inconsiderate, unnecessary bashing of alternative ideas. God's sacrifice was necessary because He - Jesus - was/is the only one capable of living a life without sin. To take the judgment of all humanity, one must not have committed the same "crime". Whether you accept this generosity or choose to take the wrath and judgment of God is totally up to you, and you are free to disagree and live your life your own way.

He creates people to love him, then creates a tree that he's fully aware will tempt them, and that they will fall to the temptation. So he casts them out and curses them with original sin.

The tree was created so that we would be able to CHOOSE Him. What kind of love is forced? If you ask me, it was a very simple rule - and one that was put in place so that we might have the option to love Him or love selfishness. Even while knowing that we would not choose Him, he gave us the choice anyway. I fail to see how this is "stupid", rather, much more loving that any of us could compare to. Especially when He had a plan for us all the while, so that we would still be able to choose Him rather than death.

He wipes out the world with a global flood because people are too evil for his liking, he wipes out whole cities because their sexual deviancy has reached a point that he can't stand, he wipes out a tower and changes people's languages because he doesn't want anyone to try and come see him,

Stop spitting nonsense you clearly know little about.

The Flood occurred not because people were "bad" but because in those days, the fallen angels had taken human wives - resulting in the "Nephalim". Unspeakable evil plagued the Earth at that time, and, if allowed to continue, would have killed off the only humans who still followed God (Noah and his family).

Sodom and Gomorra was wiped out not only for the widespread (in other words, total) sexual immorality, but for the rampant sin in general. We are told that there was, again, only one family who stayed loyal to God; and, He choose to spare them from His judgment. The people of Sodom and Gomorra were given the warning, and chose not to receive it. And, like the Flood, they paid the price for total unrighteousness. Had neither of these events happened, we could not call God just.

The construction tower of Babel was stopped not because God was stopping them from "reaching heaven", but because it was a physical representation of their disobedience and defiance of God. Humanity was told to spread out across the world (for obvious reasons), and instead, the people of those times chose to stay together and bask in their own glory. The tower was started as a way to say "We are equals with God." To hinder this, God separated their languages - forcing them to split up. And no, modern day English was not spoken there. I imagine the four (?) roots of all languages were the originals.

It's failure after failure after failure after failure and people think this story is in some way...uplifting?

It is failure on our part, disobedience on our part, defiance on our part, hatred on our part. And, after ALL this, He still chooses to love, forgive, and redeem us. So yes, I would call this "uplifting" but also "humbling". To know that you are able to speak so ignorantly, and that He will still forgive you is not a failure.

Here's a better idea: Just forgive us.

Done. He has forgiven everyone who is willing to accept it. That means the best and worst of us. Also, hell is not an eternal punishment.

I'll make this quick: Would it be just, if I killed 10 people, for my mother to step forward and say, "Release him, I'll do his time for him."? No? Then this Jesus nonsense is retarded.

You mean acquittal? Yes, totally not just at all when someone takes your place.

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I won't respond to the latter portion of your post, because it is babbling arrogance that was already stated in some way, shape, or form previously.

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So Christians can waggle their fingers at us and tell us how bad we are.

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At 3/31/12 09:54 AM, Silverdust wrote:
I wonder if you are genuinely interested in the answer to this question (which can be, and has been answered very simply) without having to resort to wildly arrogant insults and inconsiderate, unnecessary bashing of alternative ideas.

Unnecessary bashing? I really do love when christians assert in an arrogant manner that they can account for all the problems of their religion so simply, and that everyone who don't accept their cop out answers are the arrogant ones that 'just don't want to know'. It couldn't possibly be that rhese explanations are...say...bullshit, can it?

God's sacrifice was necessary because He - Jesus - was/is the only one capable of living a life without sin.

Non sequitor. Literally, that does not follow. Show your logical steps or concede that his doesn't make any sense.

To take the judgment of all humanity, one must not have committed the same "crime".

Yet with earlier sacrificial laws, one simply had to sacrifice animals. Recall, earlier sacrificial laws commanded by god included sacrificing a bird to be eaten after blessing by a priest, in repentance for giving birth.

So are you saying that birds don't lay eggs?

Whether you accept this generosity or choose to take the wrath and judgment of God is totally up to you, and you are free to disagree and live your life your own way.

Wrath. Not judgement. As I made clear before, hell is not 'just' nor is it a 'punishment'. By definition, it's just petty vengeance. :)

He creates people to love him, then creates a tree that he's fully aware will tempt them, and that they will fall to the temptation. So he casts them out and curses them with original sin.

The tree was created so that we would be able to CHOOSE Him.

And he knew ahead of time that they'd fail. So what's the point of a test you know they'll fail? It's like if I know someone will slit their wrists if I put a razor in their room, so I put a razor in their room and go, "Let's see it." That's not a test, that's sadistic.

What kind of love is forced? If you ask me, it was a very simple rule - and one that was put in place so that we might have the option to love Him or love selfishness.

A very simple rule God knew his creation would fail ahead of time. You seem to completely not understand my objection. This is about God's incompetence, not humanity's flaws.

Even while knowing that we would not choose Him, he gave us the choice anyway. I fail to see how this is "stupid", rather, much more loving that any of us could compare to.

See the above situation of a person who slits wrists and a razor. Putting someone in a situation you know will result in something bad for them isn't loving at all. It's. Sadistic.

Especially when He had a plan for us all the while, so that we would still be able to choose Him rather than death.

Not until thousands of years later. Until then he was satisfied with people just sacrificing animals and burning them because...well...he liked the smell.

Also, bare in mind all people that came before Jesus didn't have the 'opportunity' to choose. And were thusly punished for the sins of their father...yet another unjust method of 'administering justice'. "Your ancestor ate this apple, therefore you're fucked!" sorry, doesn't follow. Your god's an ass.

And please don't come at me with, "Those people were put into purgatory until Jesus came." or any of that ad hoc rationalization, because I don't accept ad hoc rationalization as any sort of real, substantial justification for the bible's inadequacies. It just demonstrates that the bible's telling of god is, by necessity, inadequate on its own. which, to me, is evidence that Christianity is almost certainly not true.

Stop spitting nonsense you clearly know little about.

Nothing I said was wrong. So how did you determine 'I know little about' the subject?

The Flood occurred not because people were "bad" but because in those days, the fallen angels had taken human wives - resulting in the "Nephalim". Unspeakable evil plagued the Earth at that time, and, if allowed to continue, would have killed off the only humans who still followed God (Noah and his family).

So, what I said was that God flooded the earth because people were bad. You then said, "Oh you don't know what you're talking about" and then explained that...the Nephilim took human wives..which resulted in evil plaguing the world...in the form of the life forms(humans) at the time...so I was right, and you're just rationalizing to make it sound not as bad as it is.

Sodom and Gomorra was wiped out not only for the widespread (in other words, total) sexual immorality, but for the rampant sin in general. We are told that there was, again, only one family who stayed loyal to God; and, He choose to spare them from His judgment. The people of Sodom and Gomorra were given the warning, and chose not to receive it. And, like the Flood, they paid the price for total unrighteousness. Had neither of these events happened, we could not call God just.

The family wasn't 'loyal' to god, hell he turned the mother to salt. And to speak of sexual immorality being some sort of factor, the daughters of the family he saved ended up getting their dad drunk and then raping him to conceive of his children.

And these are the 'loyal people' to god? Alrighty then...

The construction tower of Babel was stopped not because God was stopping them from "reaching heaven", but because it was a physical representation of their disobedience and defiance of God. Humanity was told to spread out across the world (for obvious reasons), and instead, the people of those times chose to stay together and bask in their own glory. The tower was started as a way to say "We are equals with God." To hinder this, God separated their languages - forcing them to split up. And no, modern day English was not spoken there. I imagine the four (?) roots of all languages were the originals.

Actually the history of languages and how languages evolved shows that the tower of babel is most certainly not historically accurate.

But anyway, why is God so insecure? Why is he incapable of being able to stand people building a tower? Oh, and yes, I was right, it was to be able to see god. They were trying to build the tower to reach heaven. God, in his infinite knowledge, should have known that these humans were too stupid to realize that after a certain point, they'd get so high it would collapse in on itself, as well as make them incapable of breathing efficiently. It would fail without God's intervention. So why was his wrath at all necessary? It wasn't. God's just a dick.

It is failure on our part, disobedience on our part, defiance on our part, hatred on our part. And, after ALL this, He still chooses to love, forgive, and redeem us. So yes, I would call this "uplifting" but also "humbling". To know that you are able to speak so ignorantly, and that He will still forgive you is not a failure.

I've demonstrated above, these are failures and petty dickishness on God's part. If he were a more competent god, none of this would happen. :)

Done. He has forgiven everyone who is willing to accept it. That means the best and worst of us. Also, hell is not an eternal punishment.

Great. I accept his forgiveness. Right now I'll say it: If god exists, then I accept his forgiveness for everything I've done. I'm still an atheist, but according to you I'm set...right?

Also, hell is an eternal punishment according to your other christians...so...argue with them about that one. It is until you prove it's not.

Yes, totally not just at all when someone takes your place.

Yeah, then this Jesus nonsense is retarded. :)

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At 3/31/12 10:00 PM, BigLundi wrote: Recall, earlier sacrificial laws commanded by god included sacrificing a bird to be eaten after blessing by a priest, in repentance for giving birth.

This solution was only applicable to the Israelites.

I wonder if you are genuinely interested in the answer to this question (which can be, and has been answered very simply) without having to resort to wildly arrogant insults and inconsiderate, unnecessary bashing of alternative ideas.

Unnecessary bashing? I really do love when christians assert in an arrogant manner that they can account for all the problems of their religion so simply, and that everyone who don't accept their cop out answers are the arrogant ones that 'just don't want to know'. It couldn't possibly be that rhese explanations are...say...bullshit, can it?

A cop out would be "I don't care." I do care, and I've given answers that you refuse to acknowledge or scoff at. Admitting that I, or anyone else, doesn't know the answer is much more understandable than spitting nonsense in order to win an argument. Your sarcasm and immature, brazen statements clearly have no other purpose other than to aggravate or offend Christians in general, rather than seeking answers to very difficult questions in a respectable way. I have given you the facts based from the Bible with educated insight, and do not wish to further humor your petty ego as it is a waste of both our time.

Opinions will be opinions. It is clear that a discussion with you, if it hasn't already, would become a trivial game of "That's bullshit - No, it's not". As long as you have the accurate information, there's nothing else for me to do or say. The mission of Christianity is not to change people's hearts/minds, but to spread the story; and, also to understand that most will not agree or even attempt to listen. All of this is perfectly fine, and I wish you well should you choose to seek answers rather than temporary pleasure from winning an argument (a religious one, at that).

And yes, this is me "forfeiting". So, I suppose congratulations are in order? If I have misunderstood the connotation of your posts, I apologize. But, it seems as if you are unwilling to listen (read).

~ Zoey