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At 3/30/12 01:23 AM, Revo357912 wrote: Like I said, with some of these, give them a functioning vagina, and I would say it'd be perfectly fine to call them women.

"functional". No periods, menopause, etc.

At 3/30/12 01:23 AM, Revo357912 wrote:
Like I said, with some of these, give them a functioning vagina, and I would say it'd be perfectly fine to call them women.

If that's your only criteria then you're a fucking idiot.
I can see the sense behind saying if they haven't got two X chromosomes they aren't women even if I completely disagree with it but you clearly agree they are women in their minds and physique but because they can't give birth or have periods they aren't women?

What about people born women that have an accident or something that renders their vagina non-functioning? Are they now genderless?

At 3/30/12 07:53 AM, SnoopyChicken wrote:

At 3/30/12 01:23 AM, Revo357912 wrote:
Like I said, with some of these, give them a functioning vagina, and I would say it'd be perfectly fine to call them women.

If that's your only criteria then you're a fucking idiot.
I can see the sense behind saying if they haven't got two X chromosomes they aren't women even if I completely disagree with it but you clearly agree they are women in their minds and physique but because they can't give birth or have periods they aren't women?

What about people born women that have an accident or something that renders their vagina non-functioning? Are they now genderless?

I mean as in a vagina that was meant to work, idiot. The reason being a woman's vagina helps control their hormone levels. Thats why they have periods and such. The ovaries are a main producer of estrogen, and would therefore would keep their bodies womanly, basically. Even women who are born sterile have ovaries that produce estrogen. Not only that, but hormones can alter dna to a certain level as well. And women who had their vaginas messed up actually do have problems including depression because of the lack of estrogen they need. Hormone replacement therapy isn't the same as an organ thats connected to your body and regulates hormone usage and monitors how much it needs.

It's absolutely horrible that even though she's clearly gone through so much to not be seen as a man, but the organizers still see her as one. Even though their ruling on this matter sucks, it's completely their right, (I'm assuming) it's a privately run competition, so whatever rules they lay down gotta be followed.

From the other point of view, apparently she did lie about the gender reassignment, so she probably knew what she was getting into.

At 3/30/12 11:36 AM, Revo357912 wrote:
I mean as in a vagina that was meant to work, idiot. The reason being a woman's vagina helps control their hormone levels. Thats why they have periods and such. The ovaries are a main producer of estrogen, and would therefore would keep their bodies womanly, basically. Even women who are born sterile have ovaries that produce estrogen. Not only that, but hormones can alter dna to a certain level as well. And women who had their vaginas messed up actually do have problems including depression because of the lack of estrogen they need. Hormone replacement therapy isn't the same as an organ thats connected to your body and regulates hormone usage and monitors how much it needs.

So menopausal women are no longer women? Because they aren't getting the same amount of estrogen as a woman with a fully working vagina, and will often have hormone therapy.
And what about women born without ovaries? Are you seriously telling me they aren't women because there own bodies can't regulate the correct level of estrogen?
Hell women on the pill are altering their own estorgen and proestrogen levels so they aren't women either right?
This argument is just so stupid as to be mind boggling.

I think if your surgery was good enough that you could qualify for Miss Universe in the first place, then you're clearly no longer male and should be allowed to compete.

At 3/30/12 12:14 PM, SnoopyChicken wrote: So menopausal women are no longer women? Because they aren't getting the same amount of estrogen as a woman with a fully working vagina, and will often have hormone therapy.
And what about women born without ovaries? Are you seriously telling me they aren't women because there own bodies can't regulate the correct level of estrogen?
Hell women on the pill are altering their own estorgen and proestrogen levels so they aren't women either right?
This argument is just so stupid as to be mind boggling.

Your argument that external alterations + hormone therapy makes someone a woman is mind-bogglingly stupid and doesn't take genetics into account at all.

At 3/30/12 12:14 PM, SnoopyChicken wrote:

At 3/30/12 11:36 AM, Revo357912 wrote:
I mean as in a vagina that was meant to work, idiot. The reason being a woman's vagina helps control their hormone levels. Thats why they have periods and such. The ovaries are a main producer of estrogen, and would therefore would keep their bodies womanly, basically. Even women who are born sterile have ovaries that produce estrogen. Not only that, but hormones can alter dna to a certain level as well. And women who had their vaginas messed up actually do have problems including depression because of the lack of estrogen they need. Hormone replacement therapy isn't the same as an organ thats connected to your body and regulates hormone usage and monitors how much it needs.

So menopausal women are no longer women? Because they aren't getting the same amount of estrogen as a woman with a fully working vagina, and will often have hormone therapy.
And what about women born without ovaries? Are you seriously telling me they aren't women because there own bodies can't regulate the correct level of estrogen?
Hell women on the pill are altering their own estorgen and proestrogen levels so they aren't women either right?
This argument is just so stupid as to be mind boggling.

Yes, because estrogen therapy and the pill always have existed in history.
Read up some biology and the importance of the vagina, then come back. I'm only saying that this should be an important requirement for a transgender to become a full fledged woman, not the only factor. Would you consider a dude with a working vagina a woman? no, right? Thats what I meant. No use arguing with someone who lacks common sense and simply reacts blindly. Good day, person.

At 3/30/12 12:39 PM, Revo357912 wrote:
Yes, because estrogen therapy and the pill always have existed in history.

How is that relevant?

Read up some biology and the importance of the vagina, then come back.

Actually mate the vagina doesn't produce any hormones. The vagina is the bit that you fuck, it's all the stuff behind that that you're going on about.

I'm only saying that this should be an important requirement for a transgender to become a full fledged woman, not the only factor.

You said "Like I said, with some of these, give them a functioning vagina, and I would say it'd be perfectly fine to call them women." That's what started this.

Would you consider a dude with a working vagina a woman? no, right? Thats what I meant.

Not if they were a dude no, but if they then got a penis grafted on you would consider them a dude right? Yeah same.

No use arguing with someone who lacks common sense and simply reacts blindly. Good day, person.

Good day.

At 3/29/12 09:02 PM, bgraybr wrote: Well I actually couldn't tell which one was the tranny when I looked at the picture and many people here seem to agree, so wouldn't you say that it's close enough? What if a woman was disqualified (not just voted off or whatever) just because she looked manly?

The reason you couldn't tell which one was the tranny is revealed in the caption of the photo:
"South Korea's Mini, left, joins Canada's Jenna Talackova at the Miss International Queen 2010 transgender beauty pageant."

Aw I thought the title said Miss Universe Contestant Dies.

This is kind of boring now,

If I get my dick turned inside out can I compete in womens boxing?

At 3/30/12 05:05 PM, Cootie wrote: If I get my dick turned inside out can I compete in womens boxing?

No.

Because fuck you, that's why.

Common sense prevailed.

Miss universe contests shouldn't exist until we have an intelligent alien species with females to which we can compete.

At 4/11/12 09:41 AM, SnoopyChicken wrote: Common sense prevailed.

That isn't common sense. Letting XY into XX competitions is PC bullshit.

At 4/11/12 11:11 AM, RacistBassist wrote: That isn't common sense. Letting XY into XX competitions is PC bullshit.

Gender/ sex is a whole hell of a lot more complicated than chromosomes. For instance there's AIS.

And there's these to consider.

But wait, there's more.

Blog about transsexuals, loaded with sources.

And that doesn't even begin to take into account that she is legally a woman now.

At 4/11/12 01:14 PM, karlu20 wrote: Gender/ sex is a whole hell of a lot more complicated than chromosomes. For instance there's AIS.

Does this person have AIS?

And there's these to consider.

Does this person have any of the above?

But wait, there's more.

Still doesn't get around the whole XX vs XY thing.

Blog about transsexuals, loaded with sources.

Blogs=lol.

And that doesn't even begin to take into account that she is legally a woman now.

Legally? That doesn't mean shit when talking about SCIENCE!

At 4/11/12 01:20 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Does this person have AIS?

No, but AIS (and other intersex people) show(s) chromosomes and genitalia are not the ultimate deciding factor people have been touting them as.

Does this person have any of the above?

As a matter of fact, yes. Did you read the links?

Still doesn't get around the whole XX vs XY thing.

That's addressed in the first four links and several others on my blog.

Blogs=lol.

Not reading sources=lol. Dismissing sources arbitrarily=lol.

Legally? That doesn't mean shit when talking about SCIENCE!

All my sources were scientific. The only that aren't are in the bonus "Throughout History" section on my blog. And in the case of the OP's issue legality is the deciding factor.

Now please read the links I provided.

Welp, I guess that kills any reason I have go a watch a Miss Universe beauty pageant, seeing that women and men can now participate.

I'm glad she was let back in. Heard of this a while ago. But did this really have to be bumped? It was a really shitty thread and Newgrounds is not mature enough to discuss this type of thing.

Full sex change -- Go for it -- no more fake then all those other girls tits

Still has a penis -- denied -- you're still a dude.

I don't see what the big deal is. Feeling like a girl is different from actually having the surgery.