Be a Supporter!

Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly

  • 17,211 Views
  • 838 Replies
New Topic Respond to this Topic
camobch0
camobch0
  • Member since: Jan. 10, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Gamer
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 8th, 2012 @ 10:15 AM Reply

Zimmerman should be in jail for the rest of his life, but the "Black Panthers" would probably just cause more trouble and make the drive to protect the murderer stronger.


A vagina is really just a hat for a penis.

BBS Signature
aviewaskewed
aviewaskewed
  • Member since: Feb. 4, 2002
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 44
Blank Slate
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 9th, 2012 @ 07:44 PM Reply

At 4/3/12 11:23 PM, Memorize wrote: Not if it really was self defense, which we've yet to disprove.

You understand that it's not us that has to disprove Zimmerman...but Zimmerman who has to prove himself...right?

But if we add that he was a neighborhood watch who was looking out for suspicious activity after a string of robberies in a Gated Community who went up to someone he didn't recognize....

Which is entirely irrelevant to the facts in the case...especially when you consider his watch has denounced his actions and pointed out repeatedly it violated their rules...

Suddenly it's not so clear cut.

Lol.

But go ahead and keep leaving out information... it makes it all the more amusing when you demand a "proper investigation."

I don't see how this information you just put in has anything to do with anything at all. It's not changing any of the facts, or shedding new light on things.

I love how you people act as if Cops don't do things like this on a regular basis with... *GASP* ... weapons.

Zimmerman isn't a cop. So I don't know how you think you can make any kind of comparison between a guy in a neighborhood watch and an actual officer of the law.

Think about it: If you're a neighborhood watch whose making sure no one gets robbed in your community after a reported string of robberies.... why wouldn't you be carrying a gun?

Huh? Do you understand what the neighborhood watch is or what it does? Because if you think they "make sure no one gets robbed" then you really need to brush up on what it does (and this watch specifically, you know, the one that as I've pointed out over and over again has denounced Zimmerman's actions and reported this is a pattern of problematic behavior) and doesn't do.

Are you fucking retarded?

It's not a memorize post without an insult...stop that if you please :)

Yes, let's argue ALL the facts by leaving out information like you did above!

The information you presented is IRRELEVANT and occasionally nonsense! That's why it was left out! Ditto the false analogies you keep trying to make as well!

Let's test that!

K.

So when an out of focus video appears to show no marks on his head, it's proof he's lying...

Official videos shot by the police are out of focus now? I thought the picture quality was quite good from what I saw.

But when an enhanced video does, it's still proof that he's lying because his injuries weren't "severe enough", even though he was TREATED at the scene?

It doesn't prove he's telling the truth either. Just because we now have evidence of a wound doesn't answer the questions about how it was sustained or prove that Zimmerman's version of events is correct. That's why folks like me keep calling for a full investigation because as more details and evidence comes out, it just seems to show more and more that to make a final judgement would be premature in the extreme.


You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate. --Mark Pryor, Senator
The Endless Crew: Comics and general wackiness. Join us or die.
PM me about forum abuse.

BBS Signature
aviewaskewed
aviewaskewed
  • Member since: Feb. 4, 2002
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 44
Blank Slate
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 9th, 2012 @ 07:59 PM Reply

At 4/4/12 03:38 PM, adrshepard wrote: Don't be dense.

Sorry, was I encroaching too much on the kind of argumentation you've been using?

No, it still isn't! Zimmerman can legally carry a concealed weapon.

I'm not arguing he wasn't, I'm arguing about what he did with said concealed weapon. It's a deadly weapon, and even if licensed to have a deadly weapon, there are still things you can never legally be allowed to do with that deadly weapon, and there are behaviors that are not advisable or legal to engage in with that deadly weapon.

Zimmerman can legally drive a car.

See above.

Zimmerman can legally get out of a car and talk to someone.

He can...but that's not what he did here. To act like that's what he did, and ALL he did is a gross misrepresentation of what happened.

You need to distinguish between what you personally don't like and what the law actually says.

I am distinguishing I think. I'd also like you to actually be honest when talking about the situation and represent what appears to have happened properly.

So because "cops" have screwed up in the past, it's rational to presume that cops always screw up in the present?

That's a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

And you're talking about what can be disproven?

I'm talking about what can be PROVEN. Anyone who makes a claim needs to prove the claim...not be presumed correct until disproven. Disprooving something isn't even a real word...that's why the spell check keeps putting that red line under it. I'm very clear in stipulating that it is my OPINION that Zimmerman's story doesn't add up, that he was in the wrong. I just would like to see justice done. Even if that means I'm proven wrong and Zimmerman's name gets cleared.

It'd be one thing if we could all experience it as the police did, seeing everything they saw and talking to everyone they did.

I can read their extremely sketchy reports.

Then, you might have some reason to dismiss their findings.

Like the extremely sketchy reports? The fact that they just turned him loose with very little questioning or investigation?

But you don't; all we have are bits and pieces of an event.

And the extremely sketchy report...

:When witnesses give two different accounts and the police accept one of them, it tells me that one account was more credible.

Or, the alternative to that is that it's the account that the police would rather believe. I'm not saying that's what happened, just that it's a possibility here. But I understand we're clearly talking about a matter of opinion now, especially based on the phrasing you used.

How could I believe otherwise without assuming that they are stupid, corrupt, racist, etc?

Is that not a possibility? Why must we automatically assume they are right and just in the situation? Just like we shouldn't assume the worst...why should we assume the best?

Can't we agree that those are all unlikely scenarios?

Mmmm, I'm not so ready to do so, because again, the situation feels far too fishy to me, including what legal experts pretty unanimously agree to be terrible police work. So no, I can't agree that all those stated reasons are "unlikely" but I can give you that some outcomes certainly seem much more likely then others.

Of course; they should have "done more." Not that you know with any certainty what they actually did or didn't do, but you're damn sure it was inadequate because the outcome displeases you.

Or because the report is bad, experts agree the police work was bad...little things like that...but hey, you know exactly what I've read and how I've formed my opinions I'm sure...

That's your argument in a nutshell, and it's the same argument that people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton use to rouse the mob for their own political gain. Do you really want to be like them?

Again, because you know the complete ins and outs of how I arrived at my conclusions...and that I'm in the same ballpark as the aforementioned people (who are admittedly, on my political shit list for the exact reasons you mentioned). Lovely.


You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate. --Mark Pryor, Senator
The Endless Crew: Comics and general wackiness. Join us or die.
PM me about forum abuse.

BBS Signature
Memorize
Memorize
  • Member since: Jun. 12, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Animator
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 9th, 2012 @ 08:15 PM Reply

At 4/9/12 07:44 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:
You understand that it's not us that has to disprove Zimmerman...but Zimmerman who has to prove himself...right?

Guilty until proven innocent.

Oh, sorry, it doesn't work that way.

You should already know this about our legal system... right?

But if we add that he was a neighborhood watch who was looking out for suspicious activity after a string of robberies in a Gated Community who went up to someone he didn't recognize....
Which is entirely irrelevant to the facts in the case...

No, it is especially fucking relevant because it provides context.

You could say a dead body in someone's home is proof of murder, until you detail that the dead body was a robber who broke in.

See? Context.

They're both the same scene, but provide entirely different perspectives.

especially when you consider his watch has denounced his actions and pointed out repeatedly it violated their rules...

And yet you still can't say it was "illegal", can you?

Oh right, you don't believe in due process. Guilty until proven innocent! You don't have to demonstrate how anything he did was illegal.

I don't see how this information you just put in has anything to do with anything at all. It's not changing any of the facts, or shedding new light on things.

Except that it provides a vastly different narrative.

By leaving out information, you may not necessarily be lying, but you are ensuring the people's sympathy is pointed in your favor.

Zimmerman isn't a cop. So I don't know how you think you can make any kind of comparison between a guy in a neighborhood watch and an actual officer of the law.

I'll be sure to bring that up the next time a "good Samaritan" stops a robbery, rape, or murder.

Heaven forbid someone have the audacity to walk up to people and ask them questions.

Is that exactly what he did? I have no idea.

But what pisses me off is that you people are acting as if even if he did walk up to ask Trevon some simple questions, that by merely doing THAT, it was somehow paramount to an Assault.

Huh? Do you understand what the neighborhood watch is or what it does? Because if you think they "make sure no one gets robbed" then you really need to brush up on what it does (and this watch specifically, you know, the one that as I've pointed out over and over again has denounced Zimmerman's actions and reported this is a pattern of problematic behavior) and doesn't do.

I know exactly what it does.

But I would also prefer that if my place were being robbed, that my neighbor could try to stop it if I were away.

It's not a memorize post without an insult...stop that if you please :)

How about "No"

It doesn't prove he's telling the truth either. Just because we now have evidence of a wound doesn't answer the questions about how it was sustained or prove that Zimmerman's version of events is correct.

No, but it did prove that you people were WRONG about him having no injuries.

Instead of just admitting to that, you instead, dismiss it.

Suddenly the very video you were calling a "smoking gun" doesn't matter anymore according to you!

djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 9th, 2012 @ 09:41 PM Reply

At 4/9/12 08:15 PM, Memorize wrote:
At 4/9/12 07:44 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:
You understand that it's not us that has to disprove Zimmerman...but Zimmerman who has to prove himself...right?
Guilty until proven innocent.

Oh, sorry, it doesn't work that way.

You should already know this about our legal system... right?

I see you still don't understand how objectively moronic your analogies and lies are. The second Zimmerman admitted to shooting Martin he was guilty, whether or not the shooting was justified is something that can only be determined by an extensive investigation and a trial by jury. Even with Florida's law there's enough reason to doubt Zimmerman's story that this should be brought before a jury or at the very least his following and eventual approach of Martin while carrying a gun is sufficient reason to charge and convict Zimmerman with manslaughter.

But if we add that he was a neighborhood watch who was looking out for suspicious activity after a string of robberies in a Gated Community who went up to someone he didn't recognize....
Which is entirely irrelevant to the facts in the case...
No, it is especially fucking relevant because it provides context.

It's irrelevant because Zimmerman had no reason to follow Martin. It doesn't matter how many crimes occurred in the area, Zimmerman is not a police officer and does not have the authority to follow and confront potential criminals (especially not someone who just looks suspicious because they're a black kid in the neighborhood at night).

You could say a dead body in someone's home is proof of murder, until you detail that the dead body was a robber who broke in.

See? Context.

They're both the same scene, but provide entirely different perspectives.

In both scenes the police would investigate to determine what happened and if there's any reason to doubt the shooters story they would be arrested and given a trial by jury to determine whether their reason for shooting someone was justified.

especially when you consider his watch has denounced his actions and pointed out repeatedly it violated their rules...
And yet you still can't say it was "illegal", can you?

Actually I can. He shouldn't have followed Martin and has been told repeatedly by neighborhood watch members that he shouldn't follow suspects plus he was told by the police dispatcher that he shouldn't follow Martin. The very fact that he wasn't supposed to be doing what he did and that those actions led to Martins death makes him guilty of at least manslaughter assuming his story is 100% true and Martin started the fight. Under any other circumstances Zimmerman is most likely guilty of murder.

Oh right, you don't believe in due process. Guilty until proven innocent! You don't have to demonstrate how anything he did was illegal.

You're just going to keep repeating that no matter how stupid and untrue it is, aren't you?

I don't see how this information you just put in has anything to do with anything at all. It's not changing any of the facts, or shedding new light on things.
Except that it provides a vastly different narrative.

It doesn't provide a different narrative. If anything it makes Zimmerman's position worse because it's neighborhood watch protocol to not follow suspected criminals.

By leaving out information, you may not necessarily be lying, but you are ensuring the people's sympathy is pointed in your favor.

We already know that Zimmerman was in the neighborhood watch and that there were crimes recently committed in his neighborhood. It doesn't need to be brought up in every damn post and not bringing it up isn't going to make anyone sympathize with Zimmerman.

Zimmerman isn't a cop. So I don't know how you think you can make any kind of comparison between a guy in a neighborhood watch and an actual officer of the law.
I'll be sure to bring that up the next time a "good Samaritan" stops a robbery, rape, or murder.

It's not being a good Samaritan it's being a vigilante and that is illegal.

Heaven forbid someone have the audacity to walk up to people and ask them questions.

There's no proof that Zimmerman asked Martin questions. For all we know Zimmerman started shouting threats and racial slurs at Martin or attacked him.

Is that exactly what he did? I have no idea.

So you finally admit that events could have transpired differently and yet you still say it like that's what happened. If you don't know that's what happened stop acting like it is.

But what pisses me off is that you people are acting as if even if he did walk up to ask Trevon some simple questions, that by merely doing THAT, it was somehow paramount to an Assault.

No one said that. But Zimmerman followed Martin when he was in a strange neighborhood, at night, while it was raining and we have no idea what happened after Martin turned around and asked Zimmerman why he was following Martin. The very act of following Martin gave him reason to be scared for his life and yet still Martin verbally confronted Zimmerman before anything else happened.

I know exactly what it does.

But I would also prefer that if my place were being robbed, that my neighbor could try to stop it if I were away.

Too bad. That's not how the neighborhood watch works and it's not how the law works. You're going to have to be satisfied with your neighbors calling the police to capture the criminals before they get away and your insurance covering any damage done.

It doesn't prove he's telling the truth either. Just because we now have evidence of a wound doesn't answer the questions about how it was sustained or prove that Zimmerman's version of events is correct.
No, but it did prove that you people were WRONG about him having no injuries.

No it didn't. It's still not sufficient evidence to confirm that those were head wounds. It wasn't even an enhanced tape the way you claim it was, it was just a different camera with a different angle with the exact same quality as the other one (which you've already claimed was too low quality to determine for sure whether he was injured or not so you can't reasonably claim that this video is).

Memorize
Memorize
  • Member since: Jun. 12, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Animator
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 9th, 2012 @ 09:48 PM Reply

At 4/9/12 09:41 PM, djack wrote:
I see you still don't understand...

I see you still don't understand that I don't give a fuck what a little shit like you says.

If you didn't want to have an actual discussion before: Then Fuck you if you want to have it now.

djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 9th, 2012 @ 09:53 PM Reply

At 4/9/12 09:48 PM, Memorize wrote:
At 4/9/12 09:41 PM, djack wrote:
I see you still don't understand...
I see you still don't understand that I don't give a fuck what a little shit like you says.

If you didn't want to have an actual discussion before: Then Fuck you if you want to have it now.

I told you to repost when you came up with something that didn't seem like it was typed out by a three year old. You instead decided to be a douche about it much like you are now. You can't compare the neighborhood watch to police officers and you can't just shout that we're claiming our argument is that people are guilty until proven innocent.

aviewaskewed
aviewaskewed
  • Member since: Feb. 4, 2002
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 44
Blank Slate
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 9th, 2012 @ 11:47 PM Reply

At 4/9/12 08:15 PM, Memorize wrote: Guilty until proven innocent.

Is a legal construct that works in an American court room situation...it also is not the same as saying "Zimmerman should be assumed to be telling the truth until it's proven he isnt". Try again. :)

You should already know this about our legal system... right?

I do know it. Apparently you are having some problems as to what exactly that means in terms of the concept itself, and that it doesn't necessarily apply to independent, non-court room analysis of a case.

No, it is especially fucking relevant because it provides context.

Irrelevant context. He still has no authority to be chasing anybody down with a car and a concealed fire arm, enter a situation that forced a confrontation, which then ultimately lead to him discharging his firearm which lead to Martin's death. Even in context, I see nothing here that mitigates the essential fact that Zimmerman made a stupid decisions that was well outside any power or authority Zimmerman possessed to act in the situation.

You could say a dead body in someone's home is proof of murder, until you detail that the dead body was a robber who broke in.

Sure, a mitigating circumstance and such...but there's NOTHING like that here. Zimmerman was not a cop, being in a neighborhood watch does not give you the powers of a cop, or any police powers beyond that of an ordinary citizen. Zimmerman had no business chasing Martin down and confronting him. Zimmerman should have called the police and then waited for them to respond. Nobody has presented me with anything even close to a compelling or proper reason why Zimmerman should be legally authorized to chase Martin or do anything related to the situation after he called 911.

See? Context.

See? Context that doesn't mitigate the fact that Zimmerman had no authority for his actions. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

They're both the same scene, but provide entirely different perspectives.

Indeed. But I've seen nothing, and heard no argument that refutes the essential fact that Zimmerman somehow was entitled or legally authorized to chase Martin and is absolved of any responsibility for the unfortunate events that happened after.

And yet you still can't say it was "illegal", can you?

I think his actions could have been illegal had Martin lived to press charges (stalking, harrassment, possible assault if Zimmerman put his hands on him). But as to the shooting? Yes, I can't say illegal as a matter of fact because of a couple reasons: a) Zimmerman isn't officially charged with anything in connection with it yet...I'd heard some wanted first degree murder, but I think for me it's more like second degree, or manslaughter more likely. B) I don't have all of the facts, but the facts I do have do strongly suggest to me that something illegal happened and a crime did occur.

Oh right, you don't believe in due process.

Huh? Where'd that bit of sensationalism come from?

Guilty until proven innocent! You don't have to demonstrate how anything he did was illegal.

Of course you do! Just like if he is charged and prosecuted, he'll have to demonstrate how everything he did was completely legal and no crime occurred! I really think you don't understand how the "presumption of innocence" works.

Except that it provides a vastly different narrative.

Not really. It provides a narrative that is filled with incompatible analogies and doesn't mitigate the fact that Zimmerman engaged in behaviors he shouldn't have, that ended in a potentially criminal, and certainly tragic situation.

By leaving out information, you may not necessarily be lying, but you are ensuring the people's sympathy is pointed in your favor.

Yep, that's agreed. Twisting facts, using improper analogies, and trying to paint the situation in a light that doesn't fit works much the same as well.

I'll be sure to bring that up the next time a "good Samaritan" stops a robbery, rape, or murder.

That's not what happened here either. Another completely incorrect analogy. There is absolutely zero evidence so far that Martin was doing anything criminal that night, or had any intent to do anything criminal. You keep bringing in these irrelevant ideas to somehow justify Zimmerman stepping beyond the bounds of what a person can and should do when confronted with the EXACT scenario he was confronted with. His actions were correct up until he hung up with 911 and decided to keep pursuing Martin.

Heaven forbid someone have the audacity to walk up to people and ask them questions.

Except that's NOT what happened! He pursued Martin, chased after him. Does a shooting in a vacant lot after an alleged physical struggle sound like "walking up to people and asking them questions" to you? Now who's leaving out facts and information? Fuck.

Is that exactly what he did? I have no idea.

Then you shouldn't be talking about the case, the situation, any of it. It's not like there aren't a hundred or so articles easily findable online so you can get a picture of what we know so far.

But what pisses me off is that you people are acting as if even if he did walk up to ask Trevon some simple questions, that by merely doing THAT, it was somehow paramount to an Assault.

Except that is again leaving out facts, grossly misinterpreting easy to read posts in this thread...etc. etc. aka everything people that are trying to defend Zimmerman has been doing since the start...but hey, why let inconvenient facts get in the way.

I know exactly what it does.

Ok, then explain please...because it certainly doesn't give Zimmerman vigilante police powers...which is what you're statements seem to make it seem like you believe.

But I would also prefer that if my place were being robbed, that my neighbor could try to stop it if I were away.

No one was being robbed! Martin didn't do anything criminal! Zimmerman just saw him walking, looking around, and found the behavior suspicious enough to call 911 and then pursue him. There's ZERO evidence Treyvon was engaging in anything criminal or had an intent to engage in anything criminal! So what you're saying isn't pertinent to the situation as we understand it.

How about "No"

How about "yes" or you can have a bit of a time out...I'm getting sick of you tap dancing on the border of trolling. Last polite(ish) warning.

No, but it did prove that you people were WRONG about him having no injuries.

Are they necessarily injuries from the incident? Are they injuries that were sustained earlier in something unrelated that he is now using to heighten the self defense story? In fact some are still alleging even with the video enhancement there's still no evidence of injury. So it seems to me that isn't the "smoking gun" you're saying it is either.

Instead of just admitting to that, you instead, dismiss it.

I didn't dismiss it. I said that it still isn't conclusive proof he's telling the truth. That's not dismissal at all. Dismissal would be if I didn't say anything at all, or completely excused it away and said there was no possible way he could have sustained it in the fight he alleges took place.

Suddenly the very video you were calling a "smoking gun" doesn't matter anymore according to you!

I don't remember calling it a "smoking gun", or that it doesn't matter...but again, why let the facts get in the way of a good troll I guess.


You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate. --Mark Pryor, Senator
The Endless Crew: Comics and general wackiness. Join us or die.
PM me about forum abuse.

BBS Signature
Memorize
Memorize
  • Member since: Jun. 12, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Animator
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 12:19 AM Reply

At 4/9/12 09:53 PM, djack wrote:
I told you to repost...

lol, You're entertainingly predictable.

So I'll say it again: Take your whiny, worthless opinions and go Fuck yourself with them, haha.

Ecke
Ecke
  • Member since: Aug. 23, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 31
Audiophile
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 12:58 AM Reply

If everyone's supposed to be equal, why is it such a big story? The fact that it's being covered is racist.


/ Accomplishments: first 1000 comment news post.
/ عثكغ ʘⒺⒸⓀⒺʘ

BBS Signature
Camarohusky
Camarohusky
  • Member since: Jun. 22, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 01:38 AM Reply

At 4/10/12 12:58 AM, Ecke wrote: If everyone's supposed to be equal, why is it such a big story?

Because most people are deep enough to realize that this case has numerous other important levels aside from race, which has long faded away as a primary concern here.

Also, hate crimes ae nothing but a smaller form of terrorism. The fact that they are conditioned upon status as opposed to intent to spread fear greatly confuses the issue among laypeople.

SolInvictus
SolInvictus
  • Member since: Oct. 15, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 12:37 PM Reply

At 4/9/12 09:41 PM, djack wrote: The second Zimmerman admitted to shooting Martin he was guilty

that is absolutely not the case.


VESTRUM BARDUSIS MIHI EXTASUM
Heathenry; it's not for you
"calling atheism a belief is like calling a conviction belief"

BBS Signature
djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 01:10 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 12:37 PM, SolInvictus wrote:
At 4/9/12 09:41 PM, djack wrote: The second Zimmerman admitted to shooting Martin he was guilty
that is absolutely not the case.

Do you honestly believe that a coerced confession that was easily disproven with DNA evidence (and probably could have been avoided altogether in the first place had the police done their jobs properly) can compare to this case? Besides, even if the confession isn't real the person who confessed would either have to prove that it was coerced or prove their innocence which means the burden of proving their guilt is no longer on the prosecution.

SolInvictus
SolInvictus
  • Member since: Oct. 15, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 01:30 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 01:10 PM, djack wrote: Do you honestly believe that a coerced confession

the point of the example is not coercion but that a confession must be presented and considered in trial.


VESTRUM BARDUSIS MIHI EXTASUM
Heathenry; it's not for you
"calling atheism a belief is like calling a conviction belief"

BBS Signature
djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 01:33 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 01:30 PM, SolInvictus wrote:
At 4/10/12 01:10 PM, djack wrote: Do you honestly believe that a coerced confession
the point of the example is not coercion but that a confession must be presented and considered in trial.

So by arguing against my point you were agreeing with my overall argument? I'm getting confused now, are you for or against George Zimmerman being charged with and tried for murder/manslaughter?

Ravariel
Ravariel
  • Member since: Apr. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 12
Musician
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 05:52 PM Reply

In what one might call an "interesting development," Zimmerman's lawyers have resigned the shooting case because they have been unable to contact him for days, and he is taking actions related to the case without consulting them. Likely the website he has launched trying to raise money for his defense, which has images and phrases that put even more questions into the air about his motivations and actions that night, is one of these actions... but not returning phone calls from your lawyer when you're in the middle of a nationally-recognized and highly politically-charged court case is probably not the best course of action.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 07:19 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 05:52 PM, Ravariel wrote: In what one might call an "interesting development,"...

*facepalm* that dumb mother fucker...


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Camarohusky
Camarohusky
  • Member since: Jun. 22, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 10th, 2012 @ 09:12 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 01:30 PM, SolInvictus wrote: the point of the example is not coercion but that a confession must be presented and considered in trial.

And so should a claim of self defense.

VictorGrey
VictorGrey
  • Member since: Jun. 4, 2010
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 02
Blank Slate
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 03:07 PM Reply

At 4/8/12 10:15 AM, camobch0 wrote: Zimmerman should be in jail for the rest of his life, but the "Black Panthers" would probably just cause more trouble and make the drive to protect the murderer stronger.

The "New" Black Panther Party is nothing but a black Ku Klux Klan and a bag full of snot-stirring, name hijacking, vile spouting racists.
Every one of them found out to be involved in the sent death threat should be thrown in jail right along with Zimmerman.

They aren't the old Black Panther Party whatsoever. Which did have its share of total garbage members, but some of the premises and principle they stood for I could respect.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 04:23 PM Reply

At 4/10/12 09:12 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 4/10/12 01:30 PM, SolInvictus wrote: the point of the example is not coercion but that a confession must be presented and considered in trial.
And so should a claim of self defense.

and it will be.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 04:36 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 04:23 PM, Korriken wrote: and it will be.

That article read so much like a game console rumor I thought it was talking about the PS4 for a second. An anonymous source unofficially speaking about something that hasn't been confirmed and might not prove true. At least I won't have to wait a year to find out whether the article was accurate or not. I'm actually more suspicious of it's validity since they released the article now when they could pre-write an article about the official announcement, fill in some names, add some quotes, and release it when the story was confirmed at 6 PM EST today.

Camarohusky
Camarohusky
  • Member since: Jun. 22, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 04:37 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 04:23 PM, Korriken wrote: and it will be.

Based on this case's track record with the media, I'll wait until the official announcement is given.

djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 09:32 PM Reply

I guess the source was legitimate after all. The story even included a detail I hadn't seen in any other story before, why Martin was in Zimmerman's neighborhood. I just hope he gets a real trial rather than the farce that will probably result after 2 months of nationwide media coverage.

Elfer
Elfer
  • Member since: Jan. 21, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 38
Blank Slate
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 10:39 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 09:32 PM, djack wrote: I guess the source was legitimate after all. The story even included a detail I hadn't seen in any other story before, why Martin was in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

I thought that had been explained a bunch of times before?

I just hope he gets a real trial rather than the farce that will probably result after 2 months of nationwide media coverage.

Well, it'll probably be a gong show as far as the lawyers are concerned, they'll be overly dramatic and try to make a name for themselves. Still, judges tend to be pretty good about this sort of thing, and do a decent job advising the jury to disregard any stupid stuff that's going on.

I'm glad the new prosecutor has finally ordered charges, it'll bring the situation to its resolution one way or another. As I discussed earlier, it was a tough situation, but really, they couldn't delay the charges forever. Second degree murder is a pretty ballsy chage, hopefully that means they've got some new evidence that hasn't been disclosed to the general public yet.

Camarohusky
Camarohusky
  • Member since: Jun. 22, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 09
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 11:15 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 10:39 PM, Elfer wrote: Second degree murder is a pretty ballsy chage, hopefully that means they've got some new evidence that hasn't been disclosed to the general public yet.

Not necessarily. Florida appears to be a common law criminal code state. In those jurisdictions second degree murder requires merely a heightened form of recklessness. Shooting a gun at someone definitely fits that definition. Recklessness being awareness of a risk of the result and then acts against that risk in a way a reasonable person would not. Bump that up to a complete disregard for the risks and you start to reach the 'depraved heart' area that Florida murder statute speaks of.

djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 11th, 2012 @ 11:28 PM Reply

At 4/11/12 10:39 PM, Elfer wrote:
At 4/11/12 09:32 PM, djack wrote: I guess the source was legitimate after all. The story even included a detail I hadn't seen in any other story before, why Martin was in Zimmerman's neighborhood.
I thought that had been explained a bunch of times before?

It may have been in an article and I just missed it but no one has brought up why he was there in this thread. I could have used that detail to point out that the "suspicious" behavior that Zimmerman claimed was his reason for calling the cops is easily explained by the recent criminal activity in the area and that someone like Zimmerman who watches the neighborhood with hawkeyes had ample opportunity to see Martin on his way to the store in the first place which produces even more doubt to the validity of Zimmerman's story.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 12th, 2012 @ 03:47 AM Reply

At 4/11/12 11:28 PM, djack wrote:
It may have been in an article and I just missed it but no one has brought up why he was there in this thread. I could have used that detail to point out that the "suspicious" behavior that Zimmerman claimed was his reason for calling the cops is easily explained by the recent criminal activity in the area and that someone like Zimmerman who watches the neighborhood with hawkeyes had ample opportunity to see Martin on his way to the store in the first place which produces even more doubt to the validity of Zimmerman's story.

so Zimmerman is god now? he sees all? knows all? holy shit stop the presses! oh wait, let's just make some assumption that Zimmerman sees everyone passing through his neighborhood and that he never sleeps. Given that there was a string of criminal activity in the area that wasn't foiled by gun toting half hispanics, it's safe to imagine that the neighborhood watch can't see the entire neighborhood at once.

and no one questions why Trayvon Martin was passing through a gated community... *shrug* question is, how gated is this gated community? We don't know, we don't have a map of it and don't know when the gates are shut, or if it even has gates. Maybe it just has a big open fence. point is, we simply do not know.

time to sit back, grab the popcorn and watch it all play out on the next edition As the World Burns.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

djack
djack
  • Member since: Aug. 10, 2008
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 27
Movie Buff
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 12th, 2012 @ 01:41 PM Reply

At 4/12/12 03:47 AM, Korriken wrote: so Zimmerman is god now? he sees all? knows all? holy shit stop the presses! oh wait, let's just make some assumption that Zimmerman sees everyone passing through his neighborhood and that he never sleeps. Given that there was a string of criminal activity in the area that wasn't foiled by gun toting half hispanics, it's safe to imagine that the neighborhood watch can't see the entire neighborhood at once.

Zimmerman doesn't have to be a god to have seen Martin passing through less than half an hour earlier on his way to the store. This also wasn't the first time Martin had been there. No one walks to a store in the evening while it's raining unless they know the way there and know they can get from one place to the other quickly. There's no telling how many times Martin was in that neighborhood but I find it hard to believe that Zimmerman managed avoid seeing Martin every time an opportunity presented itself.

and no one questions why Trayvon Martin was passing through a gated community... *shrug* question is, how gated is this gated community? We don't know, we don't have a map of it and don't know when the gates are shut, or if it even has gates. Maybe it just has a big open fence. point is, we simply do not know.

I always wondered why Martin was there but when I didn't see it in any of the articles I read I didn't bother asking here. I was in the middle of an argument and I doubt adr or racist would have had a problem using more conjecture to claim that Martin was a criminal to try justifying Zimmerman's actions.

RacistBassist
RacistBassist
  • Member since: Jun. 14, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 16
Melancholy
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 13th, 2012 @ 12:46 PM Reply

At 4/12/12 01:41 PM, djack wrote: Zimmerman doesn't have to be a god to have seen Martin passing through less than half an hour earlier on his way to the store. This also wasn't the first time Martin had been there. No one walks to a store in the evening while it's raining unless they know the way there and know they can get from one place to the other quickly. There's no telling how many times Martin was in that neighborhood but I find it hard to believe that Zimmerman managed avoid seeing Martin every time an opportunity presented itself.

It is possible for him to have seen him, therefore, it is implausible that he didn't.

Nice logic. I found last month that there's a 17 year old living literally 2 houses over from me who's lived there for 3 years that I have never seen before.

I always wondered why Martin was there but when I didn't see it in any of the articles I read I didn't bother asking here. I was in the middle of an argument and I doubt adr or racist would have had a problem using more conjecture to claim that Martin was a criminal to try justifying Zimmerman's actions.

Nah, nothing Trayvon did was illegal, only suspicious. That means fuck all though.


All the cool kids have signature text

BBS Signature
killer900rocks
killer900rocks
  • Member since: Sep. 4, 2011
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 06
Gamer
Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Apr. 13th, 2012 @ 01:13 PM Reply

Nobody, except the few eyewitnesses, KNOWS what happened. There are a few misty facts floating around, like Zimmermann has broken nose, teeth, etc.. Zimmerman DID disobey the police operator for the instructions not to follow Treyvon. According to family, community, etc, Zimmerman was a counselor for troubled children. Zimmerman was arrested the day of the shooting.
Everyone seems to be jumping to conclusions about the shooting, but that could get MORE people killed.