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At 7/10/13 10:10 PM, Ceratisa wrote: A member of the neighborhood following a suspicious person isn't assault. It is NOT illegal to follow someone. If you have prove Zimmerman said something or was truly aggressive in some fashion you should probably be on the stand.

TM had gotten away from Zimmerman, unless you think he openly lied about that during the time of the phone call to the non-emergency number.

Read the law. Assault is causing apprehension of danger in someone. If the jury agrees that Zimmerman assaulted Martin by pursuing him, then Zimmerman's self-defense argument won't matter.

He didn't seek him out after he started running he said he didn't know where he was. You seem confused about the time line still

Martin ran, Zimmerman got out and ran after him. That's the bottom line. Had Zimmerman stayed in the car it would have ended there, but the problem arises when once Zimmerman was out of the car and after Martin and then ran into him again. The state is going to make the argument that Martin was scared because he was being stalked. The jury is going to decide that for themselves.

PLEASE give your version of events in detail.

What is the point? Closing arguments are tomorrow. We're not going to change our minds. I'm not spending the next 3 pages getting into the same circular arguments over and over again.

At 7/10/13 10:31 PM, Korriken wrote: you know she is. the state wants to get him with something, anything they can to put him away. Hopefully the jury sees through that move and acquits him on all charges.

Is this what Limbaugh is saying or did you come up with this conspiracy theory on your own?

At 7/11/13 12:46 AM, Feoric wrote:

Read the law. Assault is causing apprehension of danger in someone. If the jury agrees that Zimmerman assaulted Martin by pursuing him, then Zimmerman's self-defense argument won't matter.

A lot of husbands and wives have a potential lawsuit on their hands towards that Cheaters show then.

At 7/11/13 05:11 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote:

anyway, the prosecution would have had an easier time charging him with manslaughter or some other lesser charge rather than murder in the 2nd degree. an acquittal seems pretty obvious at this point, but hey who knows. i wonder if/where/when shit will pop off once that "not guilty" verdict is read.

they realize they've already lost the murder charge so they're trying to tack manslaughter and assault on now.

At 7/11/13 12:46 AM, Feoric wrote:

At 7/10/13 10:31 PM, Korriken wrote: you know she is. the state wants to get him with something, anything they can to put him away. Hopefully the jury sees through that move and acquits him on all charges.

Is this what Limbaugh is saying or did you come up with this conspiracy theory on your own?

Oh gee, look, I was RIGHT! they even tossed in 3rd degree murder based on child abuse, along with manslaughter. They were going to toss in felony assault, but that was so ridiculous that the prosecution couldn't even agree to it.

also, bite me, I don't even listen to Limbaugh and it's not a conspiracy theory. Unlike some, I don't back down when you use the usual debate killing buzzwords like "Racist/ism, conspiracy theory, etc" If that's the best you got, then just walk away.

this just in, 3rd degree murder has been tossed out.

At 7/11/13 01:30 PM, Ceratisa wrote:

Wasn't the child abuse also tossed out?

that went with it, yes. it was 3rd degree murder based on child abuse. both were rejected.

closing arguments have begun.

At 7/11/13 11:54 AM, Korriken wrote: Oh gee, look, I was RIGHT!

You were?

At 7/10/13 10:31 PM, Korriken wrote:

At 7/10/13 08:45 PM, Feoric wrote:

If the judge comes back tomorrow and rules in favor of the prosecution w/r/t the jury being allowed to consider lesser charges (aggravated assault, possibly aggravated stalking) then him leaving the car is a big deal.

you know she is.

Huh.

also, bite me, I don't even listen to Limbaugh and it's not a conspiracy theory.

You made the argument that the judge is going to rule in favor of the prosecution because she has it in for Zimmerman. How is that not a conspiracy?

At 7/11/13 02:27 PM, Ceratisa wrote: This closing statement is entirely emotional and they NEVER gave a break down of the actual events.

Closing arguments during murder trials can go on for days, so it's odd you would critique the state's closing when it's only been going on for such a short period of time.

At 7/11/13 02:46 PM, Ceratisa wrote: It's odd you continue to support the state regardless of witness testimony

I'll support the defense if West tells another knock knock joke during closing.

At 7/11/13 02:37 PM, Feoric wrote:

You made the argument that the judge is going to rule in favor of the prosecution because she has it in for Zimmerman. How is that not a conspiracy?

I never said SHE had it in for him. I said the state does, in order to not flare racial tensions. That's the whole reason for the murder charge.

Closing arguments during murder trials can go on for days, so it's odd you would critique the state's closing when it's only been going on for such a short period of time.

well, given that the prosecutor went almost straight for emotion and not work the facts speaks volumes about the lack of evidence. He knows he won't get a murder conviction and he's hoping that he can get a manslaughter conviction.

At 7/11/13 03:02 PM, Korriken wrote: I never said SHE had it in for him. I said the state does, in order to not flare racial tensions. That's the whole reason for the murder charge.

Of course the state does, I'm not arguing that. When you said "you know she is" you had to be referring to the judge.

At 7/11/13 03:07 PM, Feoric wrote:

Of course the state does, I'm not arguing that. When you said "you know she is" you had to be referring to the judge.

I knew she would be granting the prosecution's request to tack on the lesser charges. Luckily only 1 could stick, that was Manslaughter. the rest were just too absurd even for the judge.

At 7/11/13 03:08 PM, Korriken wrote: I knew she would be granting the prosecution's request to tack on the lesser charges. Luckily only 1 could stick, that was Manslaughter. the rest were just too absurd even for the judge.

That's included de facto since lesser crimes are included as per Florida law. I believe the state wanted to change the jury instructions to remind them of that. Manslaughter wasn't added in, it was always there.

At 7/10/13 10:10 PM, Ceratisa wrote: A member of the neighborhood following a suspicious person isn't assault.

It can be if the followed is threatened by the follower. It also looks to be a problem since every time I heard the 911 call the operator clearly tells him not to follow Martin, that they don't need him to do that.

It is NOT illegal to follow someone.

You've never heard of stalking then? Before you go there, no I am not suggesting that Zimmerman stalked Martin. I'm simply pointing out you made a factually incorrect statement.

TM had gotten away from Zimmerman, unless you think he openly lied about that during the time of the phone call to the non-emergency number.

This is always my problem, the "he got away from Zimmerman" bit, why is Zimmerman pursuing to begin with? He's not the police, he's not a deputy or anything. He's a guy in his neighborhood same as you or I. Watch organizations are voluntary and I've seen no evidence to suggest the one he's in to have police power. He also made a conscious choice to continue to pursue after being told that was not necessary for the situation to be handled by the police who would respond after 911 informed them.

I would really appreciate it if you gave your break down of what happened right up to the shooting that fits with expert testimony.

I'd appreciate it if the people who take Zimmerman's side would first give me a rational, defensible explanation for why it's ok for a citizen to act like a cop, and chase someone down that "looked suspicious" with a loaded gun. Because no matter how the fight that resulted went down, to me the whole situation is avoided if Zimmerman simply listens to the 911 operator and doesn't follow Martin but let's the police do their job.

Zimmerman sustained multiple blows, the experts testified that it was unlikely that the lacerations on the back of his head both came from the same impact.

So because he was hit by the person he chose to follow, who doesn't know him, or his motives for that pursuit, he's automatically the victim? Sorry, I'm not seeing it. I mean, I'm not saying I'm glad he got hurt, but when you make the decision to do what he did, you open yourself up to those consequences, or worse.

Zimmerman had a broken nose and two black eyes.

Martin was shot and died from his wounds. I think Zimmerman got the better of that particular exchange that his bad decision initiated.

Mr Good the only witness to part of the altercation (Who could actually see) puts Trayvon Martin on top with Zimmerman on the bottom crying for help.

So let me put this question to you: Your walking down the street (and I have not heard solid evidence Martin was doing anything but), a strange man starts to follow you. You keep walking, he keeps following...what are your options? True, I think Martin should have called the cops, knocked on a door, or simply ran for it. Turning around to confront Zimmerman was HIS mistake, but ok, once committed to that action, is it not reasonable to conclude if you are threatened you need to neutralize the threat? Seems to me both of them made mistakes in how they handled this but Zimmerman has more culpability for me because it ALL gets avoided if the 911 operator says "we don't need you to do that" in reference to pursuing Martin, and Zimmerman then says "ok, I'm getting back in my truck now and I'll wait for the police".

The use of marijuana likely did have a result on TM's mental state according to the ME.

Again, I don't see how this negates the bad, and potentially illegal decision by Zimmerman to pursue.

TM according to Jeantel and Zimmerman's phone call had safety eluded Zimmerman.

But Zimmerman continued the pursuit didn't he?

TM was on top which isn't even denied by prosecution at this point.

Again, it can be argued he was defending himself from a stranger he thought was a threat. Which would be logical to conclude since said stranger has NO LEGAL STANDING to be following ANYBODY.

TM actively participated in fights and considered himself to be a gang banger from his own social networking posts and text messages.

Again, what does this have to do with Zimmerman following the kid with no legal standing to do so, and after being advised not to? I mean, I don't see how this makes Zimmerman look better. If anything it makes him seem even stupider in my opinion.

Zimmerman's altercation with a civilian dressed officer which was completely dropped was eight years ago.

Oh, so it's cool to bring in evidence that paints a negative picture of Martin, but not Zimmerman. Especially when Zimmerman was actually CHARGED with putting his hands on somebody when he shouldn't, and with Martin it sounds like hearsay and the crap a teenager writes on FB (which I know adults who right BS on FB, things said on FB aren't always the best source).

Zimmerman was at the time borderline obese.

So? My brother was MORBIDLY obese for most of his life and was still able to win fights if he got dragged into them. This is not really applicable. He doesn't have the stamina for a long fight, but most street fights tend to be over quick, they aren't drawn out things like UFC or boxing.

The autopsy report as mentioned showed 3 abrasions on TM's knuckles. The report says these markings could have INFACT have occurred during the altercation.

I don't think anyone disputes Martin hit him. I think it's the WHY that's under scrutiny now.

The fact that he shot TM does not change anything, no one is arguing this point.

It doesn't? Because I'd like to know why someone who is not an officer of the law is chasing after teenagers in the dark because HE thinks they look suspicious, with a loaded weapon, and the hell with anyone who tells him not to do that.

At 7/11/13 08:11 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

So let me put this question to you: Your walking down the street (and I have not heard solid evidence Martin was doing anything but), a strange man starts to follow you. You keep walking, he keeps following...what are your options? True, I think Martin should have called the cops, knocked on a door, or simply ran for it. Turning around to confront Zimmerman was HIS mistake, but ok, once committed to that action, is it not reasonable to conclude if you are threatened you need to neutralize the threat? Seems to me both of them made mistakes in how they handled this but Zimmerman has more culpability for me because it ALL gets avoided if the 911 operator says "we don't need you to do that" in reference to pursuing Martin, and Zimmerman then says "ok, I'm getting back in my truck now and I'll wait for the police".

you leave out the part, which is corroborated by both Jeantel AND Zimmerman that Martin managed to get away from Zimmerman. Martin started to run at about 7:11 pm. he makes a phone call 2 minutes later, at 7:13. Zimmerman's truck was only about 105 yards from Martin's home, and Martin was ahead of the truck by some distance, putting him at under 100 yards. Martin takes off running. Now, rather than just go home and let it be, perhaps even call the cops, Martin returns to Zimmerman's truck and knocks on the window.

why? why not just go home? he's not being pursued anymore. He goes back, bangs on the window, talks to Zimmerman, then takes off running again. If Martin was really feeling threatened, he wouldn't have went back. It sounds more like he thinks he has something to prove. And of course, Zimmerman decides to keep an eye on him.

If I was being followed by someone at night, I would simply vanish into the darkness and make my way somewhere safe, not go banging on the guy's window, or attacking him, both of which are dangerous acts.

Now, remember that Martin bangs on Zimmerman' widow, asks him why he's following him, then runs away. If you're a community watch member, what would you think? the person you see, that you don't recognize, that looks suspicious, managed to run and get away from you, then shows at at your car window, then runs off again.

Zimmerman knew the police were on their way. He had no reason to begin a brawl, especially given that he knew he was not a skilled fighter. In his mind, all he had to do is keep his eye on the person to make sure he doesn't disappear again.

I would say that both sides made critical mistakes, but ultimately it was Martin's actions that got him killed. Instead of just going home when he had the opportunity, he found it necessary to confront Zimmerman.

At 7/11/13 10:16 PM, Ceratisa wrote: So if the black community feels it is wronged it is wronged?

Isn't that how it works with every community?

At 7/11/13 03:26 PM, Ceratisa wrote: legit purchase of iced tea and skittles for LEAN.. what?

Doesn't matter what he was going to use them for, it's not a crime to buy skittles and a drink.

I don't see how drugs change the story at all, the only chemical I've heard revealed in the autopsy were small amounts of THC and a metabolite of THC. This says nothing about whether or not he was high at the time as these chemicals can stay in the body for weeks after using cannabis. Not to mention that being stoned doesn't exactly predispose people to violence.

At 7/3/13 01:19 AM, Korriken wrote: Actually, there's plenty. none of it allowed as evidence in the trial though. between his deleted twitter (but still can be found on thesmokinggun) the stuff pulled from his cell phone and his school records which showed multiple suspensions for many things that would pertain to thug life,

like being caught with a bag that contained marijuana residue

Which proves what? Plenty of ordinary high school students smoke weed.

and being thrown out for graffiti.

Juvenile delinquency =/= "thug life"

Martin was a thug who lived a thug's life and when he decided to attack the Creepy Ass Whitie

No racial connotations there at all.

Not good evidence. You all are talking about smoking weed and getting in trouble at school as if equates to being involved in organized crime.