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Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly

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Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 07:59 AM Reply

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Trayvon Martin case: New Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty for capture of George Zimmerman

Without a government-issued warrant, the organization opens itself up to civil or criminal liability, a lawyer said.

By Arelis R. Hernandez, Orlando Sentinel

5:28 p.m. CDT, March 24, 2012

SANFORD âEU" Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin.

New Black Panther leader Mikhail Muhammad announced the reward during a protest in Sanford Saturday. And when asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

The bounty announcement came moments after members of the group called for the mobilization of 10,000 black men to capture Zimmerman, who shot Trayvon in a gated Sanford community on Feb. 26.

Muhammad said members of his group would search for Zimmerman themselves in Maitland âEU" where the 28-year old worked before the shooting, employees there told the Orlando Sentinel. He declined to say when the group would begin their search.

Muhammad said the group's national chairman, Dr. Malik Zulu Shabaz of Washington, D.C. is receiving donations from black entertainers and athletes. They hope to collect $1 million by next week, Muhammad said.

The party said they would not release the names of donors nor would they provide documentation to support the existence of donations.

The New Black Panthers announced the reward at a protest in Sanford Saturday, the activist group's third protest in the past two weeks over the fatal shooting of the Miami Gardens teen.

The group called for Zimmerman's arrest and threatened to find and detain him if police were not willing to do so. But group members didn't call for the mobilization of thousands until Saturday.

Read More

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Originally when I first heard about the Trayvon Martin case, I was curious about what happened that would have caused Zimmerman to take the action that he did. There seems to be a disconnect in the media concerning what happened versus what's been reported; I've yet to hear what Martin could have POSSIBLY done carrying a drink and candy that could have warranted the shooting or the claim of self-defense on Zimmerman's part. The media seems to report Zimmerman seeing the youth, then calling 911, then skipping what escalated the situation right to Martin getting shot.

Now? Now I'm worried we may not get to hear what happened, and that Zimmerman may not get a chance to answer for what he did in court. I don't approve of what Zimmerman did, and I definitely think the law needs to be re-examined, but getting a group of vigilantes involved? I don't think this is going to end well. Given the national outcry and protests on the matter, this situation is going to turn ugly and fast.

Thoughts?


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 10:17 AM Reply

Could get ugly? This thing got ugly the minute Zimmerman went home without any investigation.

Florida's law is broken. Self defense is an affirmative defense that needs to be proven by the defendant to the finder of fact just like the prosecution (I'm blanking on the burden needed, but my gut says beyond a reasonable doubt.) This would be akin to all gun crimes being perse murder and skipping the trial and the jury and sending the shooter straight to prison.

The fact that it was white on black makes the outcry even worse. (Yes, I know he's technically partially hispanic, but look at his picture, and his name. He's about as hispanic as Taco Bell is authentic Mexican food.)

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 11:42 AM Reply

At 3/25/12 10:17 AM, Camarohusky wrote: The fact that it was white on black makes the outcry even worse. (Yes, I know he's technically partially hispanic, but look at his picture, and his name. He's about as hispanic as Taco Bell is authentic Mexican food.)

No, he's pretty much your average second-generation Hispanic. Look at his hair and facial features. He's not white by any means.

Also, I don't know why you think the police didn't investigate anything before sending him home. You weren't there, you don't know what happened, you only see that he wasn't immediately arrested and so you assume the police just let him go.

Not all the witnesses say Zimmerman was never in danger.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-a ttacked-zimmerman-03232012

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 11:57 AM Reply

The media definitely has some explaining to do in terms of the story and why they are being so judgemental.

an example is the part where they put up the shooters mug shot beside the victim as a kid. Why not put the most up to date picture of the guy who got shot? there are less tear jerking pictures of him out there I know that for sure.

as for my stance both sides are his word against theirs and have probably made up their minds about what happened before gathering evidence to support their stance.

Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 12:50 PM Reply

Zimmerman belongs in jail, the New Black Panthers belong in jail, and maybe they can throw them both in the same one.

At 3/25/12 11:57 AM, Iron-Hampster wrote: as for my stance both sides are his word against theirs

Zimmerman has his actions against theirs.

He ran toward trouble and now he's probably going to get into more.

That Trayvon guy might of been a full fledged teen punk that socked him right in the nose for all we know, or Zimmerman could of just tackled him out of nowhere.

For me it doesn't matter what happened. Zimmerman has no defense in my eyes from a position of Stand Your Ground self defense, that being because he'd already been suggested not to approach Trayvon Martin. There wasn't much "standing" in what he was doing.

Getting yourself purposefully into situations and acting in manners where you insist upon finding yourself in a "self" defense situation, isn't anything of the sort.

Trayvon Martin, had in my opinion much more than, and in fact full justification under Stand Your Ground, than Zimmerman did.

Some guy starts running up to me at night and it's raining I'm going to be ready, too. If we're to believe Trayvon attacked him.
Next he's throwing around orders at me? OH no. That guy's Crazy. He is a threat to Me.

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 03:26 PM Reply

So, let's recap.

1) Zimmerman, self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, had called 911 over 50 times for similar kinds of nonsense, just seeing a black man walking around the neigbourhood.

2) This particular night when he calls 911, the 911 operator tells him to stay back and not follow Martin, to which he says under his breath "they always get away... fucking coons", and proceeds to follow Martin anyway.

3) Martin calls his girlfriend and tells her that someone is following him. She tells him to run, and then she hears what appears to be some kind of struggle before the line goes dead.

4) As the police arrive on the scene, Zimmerman is standing with a gun in his hand over Martin's dead body. The first responder, Officer Ricardo Ayala, writes in his report that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and the back of his shirt was wet. He also notes that at no point did he question Zimmerman about the incident before he was allowed to go home, nor did he conduct a background check or check if Zimmerman was under the influence of alcohol. The report lists 1 victim of homicide/manslaughter/unlawful killing, and 0 offenders.

5) The police does not bother to take eyewitness accounts that claim to have heard Martin calling out for help.

6) A month after the shooting, Zimmerman has yet to be arrested or charged with any wrongdoing.

Given these facts, I don't see how ANYONE could conclude that this was anything other than an unlawful shooting perpetrated by a paranoid racist wierdo, and that the police, for some reason, grossly neglected their duty to investigate the crime. Given that the police hasn't been doing its job regarding this matter, is it any wonder that people are starting to ask where Dexter Morgan is when you need him?


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 03:39 PM Reply

A 10 thousand dollar bounty?

Oh my


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 03:48 PM Reply

Probably has more to do with the bizarre legal system than race, at least it should do, petty criminals who just need to be straightend out or outright innocent people languish in jails for years while real criminals get out in months and run around scot free, the only thing it accomplishes is at least some kind of police presence even if that presence ends up hurting the victims more than the criminals it does deter most things.

Be careful out there.

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 04:56 PM Reply

I agree, vigilantism is not the way to go. Things are only going to get worse if random individuals start hunting Zimmerman themselves. Putting out a $10,000 reward is basically asking people to murder Zimmerman without bringing him to trial. The police know where he is, his lawyers know where is he, the only people that don't know are the media and the general public (which is understandable since people are very emotional over this and someone could likely murder him). The amount of public outcry over this has gotten the feds involved and they are looking into it. I'm sure that if there is reason to believe that Zimmerman was not acting in accordance with the law, he will be brought to trial.

As mad as everyone is with Zimmerman right now, they should be more upset with the state representatives and the governor of Florida that passed the law making murder essentially legal in some instances.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 09:02 PM Reply

At 3/25/12 03:26 PM, Angry-Hatter wrote: So, let's recap.

1) Zimmerman, self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, had called 911 over 50 times for similar kinds of nonsense, just seeing a black man walking around the neigbourhood.

Zimmerman, somebody who lives in a neighborhood with frequent break ins, saw somebody who he thought was scoping a house

2) This particular night when he calls 911, the 911 operator tells him to stay back and not follow Martin, to which he says under his breath "they always get away... fucking coons", and proceeds to follow Martin anyway.

This particular night, the dispatch says he doesn't need to pursue (Much different from telling him not to follow), to which he either says fucking goons or fucking coons, and pursues even though the dispatch (Who has no real authority BTW) told him he didn't need to.

3) Martin calls his girlfriend and tells her that someone is following him. She tells him to run, and then she hears what appears to be some kind of struggle before the line goes dead.

Martin attacks the person following him.

4) As the police arrive on the scene, Zimmerman is standing with a gun in his hand over Martin's dead body. The first responder, Officer Ricardo Ayala, writes in his report that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and the back of his shirt was wet. He also notes that at no point did he question Zimmerman about the incident before he was allowed to go home, nor did he conduct a background check or check if Zimmerman was under the influence of alcohol. The report lists 1 victim of homicide/manslaughter/unlawful killing, and 0 offenders.

And at no point does anyone bring up the witnesses saying Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him while Zimmerman cried for help but none came.

5) The police does not bother to take eyewitness accounts that claim to have heard Martin calling out for help.

Lies. Even Martins dad upon hearing the recording of the cries for help said it wasn't his son.

6) A month after the shooting, Zimmerman has yet to be arrested or charged with any wrongdoing.

Which is good, considering you shouldn't be arrested for negating a threat of somebody on top of you beating you.

Given these facts, I don't see how ANYONE could conclude that this was anything other than an unlawful shooting perpetrated by a paranoid racist wierdo, and that the police, for some reason, grossly neglected their duty to investigate the crime. Given that the police hasn't been doing its job regarding this matter, is it any wonder that people are starting to ask where Dexter Morgan is when you need him?

Man follows somebody while on the phone with police who he believed was scoping a place out. Man gets attacked by said other man. Man 1 cries for help but to no avail. Man 1 shoots Man 2 in self defense.

OMFG MAN 1 ONLY DID IT OUT OF RACISM AND NOT THE FACT THAT A 6'2 FOOTBALL PLAYER WAS ON TOP OF HIM BEATING HIM


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 25th, 2012 @ 10:07 PM Reply

At 3/25/12 11:28 AM, RightWingGamer wrote: Yes, because that's how we stop racism and ignorance: with more racism and ignorance!

Agreed. You don't make this situation right, or cause the necessary changes in the law to hopefully prevent future problems by calling for a bounty on this guy. The Panthers are wrong as hell here and are making an already ugly and volatile situation that much worse.

Also, I've read the facts of the case on Wikipedia, and alot doesn't add up.

Well...I suggest trusting sources other then Wikipedia if you're looking for actual facts...

For instance, when police arrived on the scene, they found that Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose as well as the back of his head. Now, I wouldn't put it past Zimmerman to self-inflict the nosebleed, but self-inflicting the head wound could give him a concussion. Why would he risk a concussion just for that flimsy bit of evidence?

There are articles now reporting that some witnesses are reporting Martin on top of Zimmerman, this was from a quick google search for Zimmerman's name and the head wound specifically. If anyone is looking to replicate results.

Of course, that point is completely moot since every witness in the area reports hearing a single gunshot, followed by a man begging for his life, followed by a second gunshot.

Again, the google search reports articles saying otherwise. Which just goes to show how much more investigation really needed to be done and that even if it goes to trial and it's found Zimmerman actually did act in self-defense, it doesn't let the police department off for their bungling of the case.

There was no struggle beyond that.

Again, there are sources disputing that. I don't know what you're saying to be 100% not true...but I don't know it to be a 100% true either. I don't think you do either, so I'd be careful with absolutist statements like that.

Zimmerman claims that he was the one begging for his life, but since Trayvon didn't have a gun, both shots obviously came from Zimmerman's gun, which really only leaves one possible conclusion.

Pretty much, yes. That however does not mean Martin didn't fight back. There certainly seem to be those coming forward now that say he did. This again points out why we need further investigation and a trial and all that. Not people jumping to conclusions and then swearing out bounties and shit.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 01:33 PM Reply

At 3/25/12 09:02 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Martin attacks the person following him.
Which is good, considering you shouldn't be arrested for negating a threat of somebody on top of you beating you.
Man follows somebody while on the phone with police who he believed was scoping a place out. Man gets attacked by said other man. Man 1 cries for help but to no avail. Man 1 shoots Man 2 in self defense.
OMFG MAN 1 ONLY DID IT OUT OF RACISM AND NOT THE FACT THAT A 6'2 FOOTBALL PLAYER WAS ON TOP OF HIM BEATING HIM

I really couldn't give a damn if Trayvon Martin DID beat his ass.

If somebody drives their car around following me at night, and then chases me down when I run from them, I'm stomping that mouth, too.

Self defense my shoe to their teeth. That's fuggun' Crazy. Weirdo freak.

Zimmerman's a nutty pile of trash with an addiction to law calling that needed that pride kicked out of him. He got exactly what he deserved, a good beatdown for scaring a teenage kid, the same for any other sob that would do that.

What Zimmerman's defenders imply, is that they are in fully moral right to go around being a royal asshole who thinks they're Barney freaking Fife, and provoke people into thinking they're a threat and into fights. And if you don't lap their ass, they're also in full rights to fucking shoot you.

Bullshit they can burn in hell.

Zimmerman PUT himself in that situation, so self defense my ass. There was no self defense about it.
He's a ego inflated punk with his head up his ass, that deserved a busted nose. His actions so far doesn't leave me sure he wasn't the first to start it anyway. He provoked what he got.

A man like Zimmerman would of probably already drawn and been ready to blow somebody away, if someone else pulled that bullshit on him. Then claim... "self defense."

I'll tell you one damned thing, any self-righteous s.o.b, that is so stuck up his own ass, that he thinks he can stalk somebody around, get out of their car, jog directly at someone in the middle of the night, scare the shit out of them, chase them down until they run into somebody's yard to get away from them, and then confront, intimidate, threaten and start ordering them around just because they've got a gun in their pocket,
is someone just as proud and full of their own ass to do exactly what Trayvon Martin probably did, in response if the situation was turned.

They might not actually do on the sole reason of law and because they're afraid of those consequences. But seeing their own pride, it's already in them to take a swing for an insult to it.
There aren't on any moral high ground at all.

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 03:53 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 01:33 PM, VictorGrey wrote:
At 3/25/12 09:02 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
If somebody drives their car around following me at night, and then chases me down when I run from them, I'm stomping that mouth, too.

Where are you getting this from?

What Zimmerman's defenders imply, is that they are in fully moral right to go around being a royal asshole who thinks they're Barney freaking Fife, and provoke people into thinking they're a threat and into fights. And if you don't lap their ass, they're also in full rights to fucking shoot you.

He's in the neighboorhood watch. They watch people.
I haven't heard any account that explains how Zimmerman might have "provoked" Martin into breaking his nose.

Zimmerman PUT himself in that situation, so self defense my ass.

This was not a crime-free neighboorhood; Zimmerman was one of the people who decided to keep a lookout. Asking someone who you don't recognize what he is doing in the neighboorhood is not forcing a situation.

I'll tell you one damned thing, any self-righteous s.o.b, that is so stuck up his own ass, that he thinks he can stalk somebody around, get out of their car, jog directly at someone in the middle of the night, scare the shit out of them...

Again, where are you getting this from?

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 04:41 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 01:33 PM, VictorGrey wrote: I really couldn't give a damn if Trayvon Martin DID beat his ass.

So basically you don't give a damn about the actual part that makes it self defense?

If somebody drives their car around following me at night, and then chases me down when I run from them, I'm stomping that mouth, too.

You're right. The vastly overweight 5'2 Mexican was able to chase down the 6'2 football player.

Besides, he was doing just that. Following. He kept a distance. He was on the phone with the cops. Trayvon turned and actively sought him. It'd be more understandable if Zimmerman was the one who attacked and tried to actually engage, instead of just follow.

Self defense my shoe to their teeth. That's fuggun' Crazy. Weirdo freak.

Ok, let me get on top of you and start pounding you in the face and see what you think about self-defense and being able to use deadly force.

Zimmerman's a nutty pile of trash with an addiction to law calling that needed that pride kicked out of him. He got exactly what he deserved, a good beatdown for scaring a teenage kid, the same for any other sob that would do that.

Oh, pardon him for trying to reduce crime by being part of a neighborhood watch and trying to ID suspects and not losing line of sight.

What Zimmerman's defenders imply, is that they are in fully moral right to go around being a royal asshole who thinks they're Barney freaking Fife, and provoke people into thinking they're a threat and into fights. And if you don't lap their ass, they're also in full rights to fucking shoot you.

That's the thing, Zimmerman didn't provoke the fight. Yes, he could have taken steps to avoid it, much like Trayvon could have, but nowhere was he the aggressor.

Zimmerman PUT himself in that situation, so self defense my ass. There was no self defense about it.
He's a ego inflated punk with his head up his ass, that deserved a busted nose. His actions so far doesn't leave me sure he wasn't the first to start it anyway. He provoked what he got.

"They shouldn't be surprised they got raped, they were wearing short skirts and walking down an alley, so it's their fault."

You're overlooking one huge thing, Zimmerman was on the phone with police and following. Trayvon turned and attacked.

A man like Zimmerman would of probably already drawn and been ready to blow somebody away, if someone else pulled that bullshit on him. Then claim... "self defense."

Yeah, I can say 100% I would have claimed self defense and shot somebody too if they were on top of me hitting me in the face, especially if they approached me and attacked me.

I'll tell you one damned thing, any self-righteous s.o.b, that is so stuck up his own ass, that he thinks he can stalk somebody around, get out of their car, jog directly at someone in the middle of the night, scare the shit out of them, chase them down until they run into somebody's yard to get away from them, and then confront, intimidate, threaten and start ordering them around just because they've got a gun in their pocket,
is someone just as proud and full of their own ass to do exactly what Trayvon Martin probably did, in response if the situation was turned.

Your entire argument so far has been: "Zimmerman is self righteous, therefore, it isn't self-defense to fight back if somebody is on top of you hitting you in the head"

They might not actually do on the sole reason of law and because they're afraid of those consequences. But seeing their own pride, it's already in them to take a swing for an insult to it.

You still haven't explained how what Zimmerman did is murder besides that you don't like him as a person.

There aren't on any moral high ground at all.

Moral high ground doesn't mean shit when you're on the bottom getting beat now does it?


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 05:44 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 12:40 PM, RightWingGamer wrote: Check the article now. More witness reports have come in supporting both sides of the story, including the ones you mentioned.

I'd rather stick with legitimate media sources when I want news thanks :).

Yeah, that would explain the grass stains and the head wound, but why wouldn't Zimmerman mention it in his story? Instead, he reported that Martin attacked him from behind and that he was forced to shoot. And that is proven to be a lie by testimony given by Martin's girlfriend (whom he was on the phone with at the time and heard most of the altercation), saying Martin was approached by Zimmerman and the two briefly conversed.

I'm not defending Zimmerman whatsoever. You've got the guy on tape calling the kid a "coon". When you're on tape making a racist statement, you'd best have some non-racist witnesses corroborating your version of events to the letter for me to believe that you weren't trying to pick a fight and have an excuse to hurt this kid. But that's my opinion, and my point is that we're starting to see the other side of the story coming out, that does include more witnesses. So that's why I have say we don't have all the facts yet, and we clearly need an investigation and a trial to find out what really happened here once and for all.

An innocent explanation to this would be that Zimmerman was trying to stop the bleeding by applying pressure, but again, why didn't he mention this in his report to the police?

A good question. Or perhaps he did and the police never took it down? We've already got it proven that the police massively botched the scene, and did not really investigate at all. This could unfortunately play in Zimmerman's favor as well since he can potentially turn it around and say that statements he did make were not recorded by the police in their statements.

Early reports suck. However, one witness, Mary Cutcher (whose backyard the shooting occurred in), testified that she didn't hear a struggle, but heard a "very young voice" whining before the shooting. Listen to Zimmerman's phone call and tell me if that could possibly be him.

I think you're missing my point again. I'm saying the facts are still coming in. I DO tend to believe at the end of the day Zimmerman is guilty. This isn't the first time he made calls like this, he was clearly told not to approach, and his block captain even said they'd had problems with him doing similar things (though not ending so violently) beforehand. But at the same time, we have bad police work clouding the issue, and very slanted reporting of the incident since pushing public opinion into one direction. End of the day, we need justice for both parties in this case, not bad reporting on top of bad police work further clouding the issue.

See above. Also, it is now reported that Martin died of a single chest wound, and that there was only one gunshot. This does sound alot less cold-blooded, but I still don't see any possible reason Martin would have for attacking Zimmerman.

The only one I can think of is the idea on his part that he is being followed, he believes the person following him means him harm, so he decided to try and disable him first. 17 year olds sometimes make bad decisions. Not saying that's what happened, but it seems a possibility, when you're placed into such a situation you tend to have a primal "fight or flight" reaction. It's possible Martin chose the former...but again, the majority of the evidence seems to say no, but the facts are still coming in.

And even if Martin did indeed fight back, that would still mean that Zimmerman attacked first.

Huh? Why?

That coupled with the fact that Martin was completely unarmed (unless you count iced tea as a deadly weapon), means that Zimmerman was still 100% in the wrong.

Mmmm, depends, it's dark, Zimmerman isn't trained...and we've even seen with police that if someone comes at you in a threatening manner, you must assume they are armed and discharge your weapon in defense of yourself. I think the thing that damages Zimmerman to claim self defense is we have from the tapes a pretty clear situation where he called 911 to report Martin, and was advised not to engage or approach. Zimmerman disregarded that. So even if let's say Martin attacks him first (and if he does, I imagine it's because Martin feels threatened and sees a need to defend himself most likely) Zimmerman is still unable to really make self defense stand up because he deliberately placed himself into that situation and his actions caused an altercation.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 05:49 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 03:53 PM, adrshepard wrote:
At 3/26/12 01:33 PM, VictorGrey wrote:
At 3/25/12 09:02 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
If somebody drives their car around following me at night, and then chases me down when I run from them, I'm stomping that mouth, too.
Where are you getting this from?

What Zimmerman's defenders imply, is that they are in fully moral right to go around being a royal asshole who thinks they're Barney freaking Fife, and provoke people into thinking they're a threat and into fights. And if you don't lap their ass, they're also in full rights to fucking shoot you.
He's in the neighboorhood watch. They watch people.
I haven't heard any account that explains how Zimmerman might have "provoked" Martin into breaking his nose.

Zimmerman PUT himself in that situation, so self defense my ass.
This was not a crime-free neighboorhood; Zimmerman was one of the people who decided to keep a lookout. Asking someone who you don't recognize what he is doing in the neighboorhood is not forcing a situation.

I'll tell you one damned thing, any self-righteous s.o.b, that is so stuck up his own ass, that he thinks he can stalk somebody around, get out of their car, jog directly at someone in the middle of the night, scare the shit out of them...
Again, where are you getting this from?

Well for one, the 911 call he made is recorded. He was told by the dispatcher, not to pursue him. I'd have to look up the link for it but him pursuing the Trayvon Martin guy, that is established. (here's a youtube video of various 911 recordings, the first call is Zimmerman ) He Zimmerman, thought he was scoping out houses. In actuality, he was his darned neighbor in the community.

Zimmerman followed him in his truck, and then at some point got out, and chased him on foot. Zimmerman then chased him into somebody's yard and whatever happened afterward, and he ended up killing Trayvon. Other 911 calls indicate where he shot him, in somebody's backyard.

Far as him being the neighborhood watch, well, the word is Watch. Not follow around and then jog up to him on foot afterward and chase him down.

We have people, that have full right to chase folks down, then temporarily detain them for questioning. They're police officers. They're trained to do it. They got shiny spinning lights and shit on their cars, and recognizable uniforms. So you know just exactly who they are from some random person when they are around, and that you probably shouldn't have to run from them.

Neighborhood watch isn't there to run down people that they merely suspected to be criminals. They observe and report to the police. Could they try and stop a clearly obvious crime directly being committed and in progress? Hell, I don't know. I don't care. This wasn't.

Zimmerman did the job Neighborhood watch are supposed to do to a fanatical level anyway. I believe the amounts of times he's called police that have been out in news average up to something like 1 time every night for the past while. According to some media sources at least.

If that's true, then my opinion is he's fanatical. He's a nut. He's calling police for every damn warm body he sees out past 6. That seems to be his requirements for being defined a suspicious individual: not him, and out past 6.
At least to me, and according to the news information presented, anyway.

At any rate, the fact of Zimmerman going after the kid is established. Other news, has the Trayvon Martin fellow allegedly talking to his girlfriend on the phone about getting away from some guy that's following him.

So, that is what he did. He ran from Zimmerman trying to get away from him, until he got out of his truck, and chased him down into somebody's backyard. He for all we know could of tackled him down.

My position, is that if some nut started following me around, at night, while it's raining, hell I'd run too. I'd doubt the guy is trying to sell me a vacuum cleaner.

Whatever he wants, I'd want the hell away from him because somebody chasing after me like that could be a thief or a damned crazy person. That isn't normal. Not to me anyway.

And then, if I found myself cornered or he caught up to me? My first inclination was to get away from the bastard. Now I'd be ready to fight. I'd be likely to stab the shit out of him.
Seeing how this Zimmerman fellow was fanatically convinced whoever's outside is a burglar, he was probably acting threatening toward him or throwing around orders. I'd stomp his ass, too. The crazed bastard.

There's one thing potentially a hell of lot more dangerous than fighting somebody who's pissed, and that is fighting somebody who's scared shitless. That skinny 140 pound cornered kid Trayvon he chased around, stomped ass on that pissed off frustrated 250 pound guy. Until he shot him. This all according to the media reports of course.

I'm simply not accepting the "self defense" argument on this. Normal people don't act like Zimmerman did. Crazy ass people do. I wouldn't blame Trayvon for doing what he did in that situation.

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 06:08 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 05:49 PM, VictorGrey wrote: Well for one, the 911 call he made is recorded. He was told by the dispatcher, not to pursue him. I'd have to look up the link for it but him pursuing the Trayvon Martin guy, that is established. (here's a youtube video of various 911 recordings, the first call is Zimmerman ) He Zimmerman, thought he was scoping out houses. In actuality, he was his darned neighbor in the community.

You are not required to do that=! Don't do that.

Seriously, how are people getting being told something is no longer necessary as an order to stop. Cool story, because as we all know, kids never scope houses in their own neighborhood.

Zimmerman followed him in his truck, and then at some point got out, and chased him on foot. Zimmerman then chased him into somebody's yard and whatever happened afterward, and he ended up killing Trayvon. Other 911 calls indicate where he shot him, in somebody's backyard.

Chased. You're honestly telling me a horrendously overweight 5'2 man was able to chase a 6'2 in shape football player and keep up on foot. Other 9-11 calls also indicate that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him repeatedly.

Far as him being the neighborhood watch, well, the word is Watch. Not follow around and then jog up to him on foot afterward and chase him down.

Uh, Zimmerman did watch. That's why he followed. Key word followed. Nowhere has it been reported that Zimmerman was the one to confront the other.

We have people, that have full right to chase folks down, then temporarily detain them for questioning. They're police officers. They're trained to do it. They got shiny spinning lights and shit on their cars, and recognizable uniforms. So you know just exactly who they are from some random person when they are around, and that you probably shouldn't have to run from them.

Nice, now where's the relevance? we also got firefighters, so I shouldn't put out kitchen fires right?

Neighborhood watch isn't there to run down people that they merely suspected to be criminals. They observe and report to the police. Could they try and stop a clearly obvious crime directly being committed and in progress? Hell, I don't know. I don't care. This wasn't.

Run down. Where has it been reported he ran him down. Seriously, nowhere except for blogs has used that kind of description. No witnesses corroborate that version. None of the calls do. Shit, not even Trayvons girlfriend.

Zimmerman did the job Neighborhood watch are supposed to do to a fanatical level anyway. I believe the amounts of times he's called police that have been out in news average up to something like 1 time every night for the past while. According to some media sources at least.

You obviously never lived in a neighborhood where crimes occur. 1 time every night? Where do you get that? From the sources that don't say it was across the entire watch over the past year?

If that's true, then my opinion is he's fanatical. He's a nut. He's calling police for every damn warm body he sees out past 6. That seems to be his requirements for being defined a suspicious individual: not him, and out past 6.
At least to me, and according to the news information presented, anyway.

Cool story. No where does that make it justified to attack him.

At any rate, the fact of Zimmerman going after the kid is established. Other news, has the Trayvon Martin fellow allegedly talking to his girlfriend on the phone about getting away from some guy that's following him.

Following. Not chasing, or confronting.

So, that is what he did. He ran from Zimmerman trying to get away from him, until he got out of his truck, and chased him down into somebody's backyard. He for all we know could of tackled him down.

Haha, yeah. The 6'2 football player couldn't outrun the overweight 5'2 guy on foot, and the 5'2 guy was only able to catch up once on foot.

My position, is that if some nut started following me around, at night, while it's raining, hell I'd run too. I'd doubt the guy is trying to sell me a vacuum cleaner.

Yes, you'd run. You wouldn't attack him.

Whatever he wants, I'd want the hell away from him because somebody chasing after me like that could be a thief or a damned crazy person. That isn't normal. Not to me anyway.

Yes, you'd evade, not attack.

And then, if I found myself cornered or he caught up to me? My first inclination was to get away from the bastard. Now I'd be ready to fight. I'd be likely to stab the shit out of him.

Yay for speculation not relating to the scenario that actually happened.

Seeing how this Zimmerman fellow was fanatically convinced whoever's outside is a burglar, he was probably acting threatening toward him or throwing around orders. I'd stomp his ass, too. The crazed bastard.

Now he's fanatically convinced? I'd like to see your full report based upon his psych eval.

There's one thing potentially a hell of lot more dangerous than fighting somebody who's pissed, and that is fighting somebody who's scared shitless. That skinny 140 pound cornered kid Trayvon he chased around, stomped ass on that pissed off frustrated 250 pound guy. Until he shot him. This all according to the media reports of course.

There's also a lot of things more dangerous then a vastly overweight 5'2 Mexican guy. And that's a 6'2 football player who attacked him. Nowhere on the phone call with his girl did he say the guy was chasing him or running after him or confronting him. He was the one to walk up to Zimmerman. He was the one to say something first. He was the one to be on top of him punching him multiple times while Zimmerman pleaded for help (That alone means Trayvon loses any right to self-defense)

I'm simply not accepting the "self defense" argument on this. Normal people don't act like Zimmerman did. Crazy ass people do. I wouldn't blame Trayvon for doing what he did in that situation.

Yes, you can not accept it, but it only means you're ignorant.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 07:09 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 04:41 PM, RacistBassist wrote: So basically you don't give a damn about the actual part that makes it self defense?

No, because the part of him seeking it out negates anything else.

I have no problem with someone shooting somebody for unjustly, arbitrarily attacking them. Some people do, I don't really. The idea of someone incapacitating me in a physical fight, and thus being easily able to kill me is fine enough reason to shoot them, I don't care.

But that is firmly with the notion, I didn't go looking for the fight.

Now dammit, RB, I simply can't give you, a better example of > LOOKING < for a fight, than chasing after someone, Running, Away From You!

After they start fuggin' running from you, you'd better damned let them go. They don't have an obligation for your ass to run the rest of the the damn night. If they fight back, fuck you bro, you take "self defense" and cram it in yer ass.

Listen to your Zimmerman phone call against please, before you keep on with this insistence that "herp derp He got attacked out of nowhere."

No. Not what happened, events prove it. You have Zimmerman's claim on a phone call. Which happens Before the Martin kid Runs. Could he be checking to see who's in the truck? Could be, I don't know. I DO know, that he then ran.

The same phone call you refer to yourself, comments on that. Zimmerman said it Himself.

You're right. The vastly overweight 5'2 Mexican was able to chase down the 6'2 football player.

260 is pretty hefty, but it's not necessarily vastly. He'd also been, supposedly, chasing the kid around the neighborhood in his truck, some time before that.

Besides, he was doing just that. Following. He kept a distance. He was on the phone with the cops. Trayvon turned and actively sought him. It'd be more understandable if Zimmerman was the one who attacked and tried to actually engage, instead of just follow.

No. He didn't. He might of walked up to him at some point to see who was in some truck following him, but the incident happened some time after he got off the phone, chased him in his truck, got out, and ran after him.

Zimmerman on his phone, AFTER what you are saying, said so himself that Trayvon RAN, A-WAY from him. This incident of the shooting, being after quite a while of Zimmerman's following him in his truck, and then getting out and chasing him. Self Defense, my ass.

You're telling me, somebody has to first Chase someone running away from them, in order to defend themselves from them.
Not how Self Defense works.

Ok, let me get on top of you and start pounding you in the face and see what you think about self-defense and being able to use deadly force.

No. And your point is meaningless.

You see jackhole, I would show you what I think about deadly force.

The thing is, I wouldn't "show you what I think about self-defense", after running after you. Because that isn't self-defense, it'd be like a proud dumbfuck who provoked a kid after posing himself as a threat at best, or initiated a physical attack toward him physically at worst.

He can go to hell. The action alone of an armed man chasing him around for who knows how long and being a generally aggressive asshole, is enough for me personally to say the MARTIN KID had justification for self defense.

Oh, pardon him for trying to reduce crime by being part of a neighborhood watch and trying to ID suspects and not losing line of sight.

Nope.

I don't care what his intentions were. His actions were that of a threatening asshole. He looked, and Was, a threat to the Martin kid's safety. Trigger happy lunatic instigating trouble.

What Zimmerman's defenders imply, is that they are in fully moral right to go around being a royal asshole who thinks they're Barney freaking Fife, and provoke people into thinking they're a threat and into fights. And if you don't lap their ass, they're also in full rights to fucking shoot you.
That's the thing, Zimmerman didn't provoke the fight. Yes, he could have taken steps to avoid it, much like Trayvon could have, but nowhere was he the aggressor.

I think you're an dick with a shitty s username who's full of slop and piss but that doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Chasing people around at night, IS provoking and unreasonable. Running after them when they flee from you, what the gogdamn hell do you Think they're going to do when you get there? They're going to fight you, because obviously you just don't fuggin' get it. They want you to leave them the hell alone. Those actions are pretty damned reasonable.

Zimmerman PUT himself in that situation, so self defense my ass. There was no self defense about it.
He's a ego inflated punk with his head up his ass, that deserved a busted nose. His actions so far doesn't leave me sure he wasn't the first to start it anyway. He provoked what he got.
"They shouldn't be surprised they got raped, they were wearing short skirts and walking down an alley, so it's their fault."

Sounds like the equivocation of an asshole.

Let me fix it for you.

"They shouldn't be surprised they got raped. They were wearing short skirts. And running down an alley chasing after a guy yelling 'I love sex, look at all this pussy, I dare you to see if you can take some of this, because you aren't man enough to handle it' and then rubbing their tits in his face."

That's a more reasonable equivocation of "rape", to Zimmerman "Self Defense."

You're overlooking one huge thing, Zimmerman was on the phone with police and following. Trayvon turned and attacked.

Already addressed. There was a chasing down in his truck, a chasing down on foot, a fight in a backyard. Not what you're saying.

If you suggest he "turned and attacked" him from his truck, you are wrong.

A man like Zimmerman would of probably already drawn and been ready to blow somebody away, if someone else pulled that bullshit on him. Then claim... "self defense."
Yeah, I can say 100% I would have claimed self defense and shot somebody too if they were on top of me hitting me in the face, especially if they approached me and attacked me.

*sigh* Yeah ok then.

If you provoked it by running toward the fight in which you killed someone in, and the police let you off, then I'd hope a bunch of black racists hunt you down, too then. Because you're crazy and you think you can go around like some kook stalking people in you truck for being out past dark and then running after when they try to avoid your crazy ass.

Your entire argument so far has been: "Zimmerman is self righteous, therefore, it isn't self-defense to fight back if somebody is on top of you hitting you in the head"

Actually...

You still haven't explained how what Zimmerman did is murder besides that you don't like him as a person.

Murder, involuntary manslaughter, whatever.

It's a crime because everything he did, instigated the incident happening and facts around the matter prove it.

Self Defense isn't goading people into fights , and then shooting them when you lose.

If he stayed in his damn truck he wouldn't of had to shoot somebody. He didn't. He wanted to be a hero and catch a house burglar. Instead he stalked around an innocent kid around the whole community and ultimately, chased him down into a fight and shot him.

Moral high ground doesn't mean shit when you're on the bottom getting beat now does it?

You know what helps not being in that situation?

Not chasing after people you end up fighting with and killing.

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 08:13 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 06:08 PM, RacistBassist wrote: You are not required to do that=! Don't do that.

Works for me. Also they didn't say "you are not required to do that". The actual transcript reads the dispatcher as saying "We don't need you to do that". Now, I think that's pretty clearly the dispatcher letting Zimmerman know they don't wish him to keep following.

Seriously, how are people getting being told something is no longer necessary as an order to stop.

Because it should be? Show me where Zimmerman has any business or legal authority to keep following this kid? Neighborhood Watch groups are voluntary, and run by members of the community. They are in no way actually connected with law enforcement.

Cool story, because as we all know, kids never scope houses in their own neighborhood.

Please show me the evidence you have though that shows this kid doing anything of a criminal nature.

Chased.

That is the word being used.

You're honestly telling me a horrendously overweight 5'2 man was able to chase a 6'2 in shape football player and keep up on foot.

You're missing the part about him following in his truck I'm thinking...also I don't see it being clearly indicated when he stops the truck, gets out, and begins to pursue on foot. I'm also not sure that there was any running involved on Martin's part. Is it not conceivable that Martin potentially sped up his walking pace, Zimmerman attempted to match the pace, and then when they reach the backyard in question Martin decides to stop and confront Zimmerman about why he's following him?

Other 9-11 calls also indicate that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him repeatedly.

There is that...but of course my question there as well is how did we get to that place (if that did indeed occur)? Because this sounds very much to me like the reaction of a scared kid who has somebody following him for no reason this scared kid can discern. Does that then give Zimmerman the right to shoot him dead? That of course, is assuming that is what happened.

Uh, Zimmerman did watch. That's why he followed. Key word followed. Nowhere has it been reported that Zimmerman was the one to confront the other.

If Zimmerman is following him, it's logical to assume even if Martin is the one to turn and force a confrontation that it is still a confrontation occurring as the result of Zimmerman's action to follow. Something that Zimmerman was told he was "not required" to do. Also his block captain has said Zimmerman has a history of doing this and was told by his Watch superiors not to take those sorts of actions.

Nice, now where's the relevance?

The relevance is Zimmerman has no basis or legal right to be following folks in the middle of the night in his truck. If Martin was still alive, is it inconceivable that he would now be filing some kind of charges against Zimmerman for following him?

we also got firefighters, so I shouldn't put out kitchen fires right?

This is not an apples to apples comparison. Putting out a fire is one trying to extinguish a real threat...this is a case where Zimmerman perceived a threat or problem, and took inappropriate actions (following) to handle it after taking appropriate actions to handle it (calling 911).

Run down. Where has it been reported he ran him down. Seriously, nowhere except for blogs has used that kind of description. No witnesses corroborate that version. None of the calls do. Shit, not even Trayvons girlfriend.

This however is ignoring the real central point of what Victor is saying: That Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer, he is a volunteer in a Neighborhood Watch group. He has no right to be out there following anyone around while armed. You're not seeing the forest for the trees here.

You obviously never lived in a neighborhood where crimes occur.

So if crime occurs in your neighborhood it's perfectly moral and legal to carry a gun, follow those you personally suspect to be criminals around, showing yourself to be something of a vigilante? Come on...also, the Watch rules clearly state that a member (which Zimmerman was) ISN'T allowed to do that.

1 time every night? Where do you get that? From the sources that don't say it was across the entire watch over the past year?

It's a lot more then just over one year. This article is also helpful in laying out exactly what the Watch in Sanford is and isn't supposed to do as well.

Cool story. No where does that make it justified to attack him.

That is Zimmerman's version of events that yes, some witnesses corroborate, but others dispute. It's why I keep saying we really need an investigation here.

Following. Not chasing, or confronting.

He has no legal right or basis to even be following. Also if you'll recall the girl reports the phone call ended when she heard sounds that can be construed as a confrontation occurring.

Haha, yeah. The 6'2 football player couldn't outrun the overweight 5'2 guy on foot, and the 5'2 guy was only able to catch up once on foot.

This is a massive amount of assumption here...and it also ignores the fact that the overweight 5'2" guy has no business following the 6'2" football player to begin with.

Yes, you'd run. You wouldn't attack him.

How do you know what Victor would do for a fact in that situation? Or what you yourself would do? Again, you seem to continue to ignore that anything that occurred in that yard follows a chain of causality that begins with Zimmerman decided to step outside the bounds of his legal authority and clearly defined rules governing his voluntary association with the Watch.

Yes, you'd evade, not attack.

Clearly he was evading, and evading was not working. Martin then stopping and attacking may have been a stupid decision, but does that justify Zimmerman killing him?

Yay for speculation not relating to the scenario that actually happened.

The scenario that is still under investigation as to what actually happened? That scenario?

Now he's fanatically convinced? I'd like to see your full report based upon his psych eval.

The evidence certainly suggests someone who believed he had more authority and right to his actions then he actually did. So what Vic is saying isn't completely baseless hyperbole.

There's also a lot of things more dangerous then a vastly overweight 5'2 Mexican guy.

Sure. Like a vastly overweight 5'2" White/Mexican guy with a gun. Like George Zimmerman.

And that's a 6'2 football player who attacked him.

Allegedly.

Nowhere on the phone call with his girl did he say the guy was chasing him or running after him or confronting him.

Following in a truck and then on foot to a piece of private property isn't chasing? Looks like chasing to me...also again, the call ends with the girlfriend stating: âEUoeTrayvon said, âEU~What, are you following me for.âEUTM And the man said, âEU~What are you doing here.âEUTM Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didnâEUTMt answer the phone.âEU Anything else you'd like to get wrong while you're at it?

He was the one to walk up to Zimmerman.

According to Zimmerman.

He was the one to say something first.

That seems pretty clear. He was inquiring as to why he was being followed. Seems reasonable.

He was the one to be on top of him punching him multiple times while Zimmerman pleaded for help (That alone means Trayvon loses any right to self-defense)

According to some, Zimmerman included. Others dispute that ever happened. But clearly you've decided who you believe. I'm sure you're user name has nothing to do with that at all...

Yes, you can not accept it, but it only means you're ignorant.

Riiight, because we have conclusively proven it went exactly as Zimmerman said it did...glad we got that all cleared up. Call of the investigation and the trial everybody! Ugh.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 11:07 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 08:13 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: Works for me. Also they didn't say "you are not required to do that". The actual transcript reads the dispatcher as saying "We don't need you to do that". Now, I think that's pretty clearly the dispatcher letting Zimmerman know they don't wish him to keep following.

They don't wish him to, but it is also not an active order to stand down. There's a huge difference. A lot of cops also don't want you to fight back a lot of the time but instead run, but that's also not an order.

Because it should be? Show me where Zimmerman has any business or legal authority to keep following this kid? Neighborhood Watch groups are voluntary, and run by members of the community. They are in no way actually connected with law enforcement.

There is a huge difference between the two.

Please show me the evidence you have though that shows this kid doing anything of a criminal nature.

Nothing. Zimm was following. Didn't try to confront.

That is the word being used.

It implies running after.

You're missing the part about him following in his truck I'm thinking...also I don't see it being clearly indicated when he stops the truck, gets out, and begins to pursue on foot. I'm also not sure that there was any running involved on Martin's part. Is it not conceivable that Martin potentially sped up his walking pace, Zimmerman attempted to match the pace, and then when they reach the backyard in question Martin decides to stop and confront Zimmerman about why he's following him?

Following in his truck. Following. Not trying to confront.

There is that...but of course my question there as well is how did we get to that place (if that did indeed occur)? Because this sounds very much to me like the reaction of a scared kid who has somebody following him for no reason this scared kid can discern. Does that then give Zimmerman the right to shoot him dead? That of course, is assuming that is what happened.

So basically it ends up with Trayvon having more of a right to be in the neighborhood, so he can just attack him? Reports of the time spent following differ, but most indicate it at around one block. Trayvon turned around to confront him, or Zimmerman blocked him off in the truck, which is just pure conjecture.

If Zimmerman is following him, it's logical to assume even if Martin is the one to turn and force a confrontation that it is still a confrontation occurring as the result of Zimmerman's action to follow. Something that Zimmerman was told he was "not required" to do. Also his block captain has said Zimmerman has a history of doing this and was told by his Watch superiors not to take those sorts of actions.

Yes, and I've had people get road rage on me since we were going the same way. Therefore, they can attack me right?

The relevance is Zimmerman has no basis or legal right to be following folks in the middle of the night in his truck. If Martin was still alive, is it inconceivable that he would now be filing some kind of charges against Zimmerman for following him?

7:00 PM. Hardly middle of the night like reported. Yes, I believe Zimmerman should be brought under scrutiny for following, but remember, he was the one attacked.

This is not an apples to apples comparison. Putting out a fire is one trying to extinguish a real threat...this is a case where Zimmerman perceived a threat or problem, and took inappropriate actions (following) to handle it after taking appropriate actions to handle it (calling 911).

Zimmerman clearly believed this kid was scoping places out to commit a crime. He was trying to prevent it. He did not block him off in his car and attack him, he called 9-11 and followed.

This however is ignoring the real central point of what Victor is saying: That Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer, he is a volunteer in a Neighborhood Watch group. He has no right to be out there following anyone around while armed. You're not seeing the forest for the trees here.

Uh, he does have the right to be armed, and he was on the phone with police. He did nothing illegal, nor did he violate any rights.

So if crime occurs in your neighborhood it's perfectly moral and legal to carry a gun, follow those you personally suspect to be criminals around, showing yourself to be something of a vigilante? Come on...also, the Watch rules clearly state that a member (which Zimmerman was) ISN'T allowed to do that.

It's perfectly legal and moral to carry a gun, and following criminals through the neighborhood but not going up to them is perfectly within the rights.

It's a lot more then just over one year. This article is also helpful in laying out exactly what the Watch in Sanford is and isn't supposed to do as well.

Cool. My grandparents were part of the watch. Didn't stop him from being packing. Considering that, you know, criminals don't take kindly to people reporting them.

That is Zimmerman's version of events that yes, some witnesses corroborate, but others dispute. It's why I keep saying we really need an investigation here.

The lady that disputed it did NOT see it go down. She said she believed it didn't. Yes, there should be an investigation, but a hit by the BP is a little much.

He has no legal right or basis to even be following. Also if you'll recall the girl reports the phone call ended when she heard sounds that can be construed as a confrontation occurring.

Yeah, and who was the first to exchange words?

This is a massive amount of assumption here...and it also ignores the fact that the overweight 5'2" guy has no business following the 6'2" football player to begin with.

He's the neighbor watch. It's what he does. He did so at a distance.

How do you know what Victor would do for a fact in that situation? Or what you yourself would do? Again, you seem to continue to ignore that anything that occurred in that yard follows a chain of causality that begins with Zimmerman decided to step outside the bounds of his legal authority and clearly defined rules governing his voluntary association with the Watch.

Nowhere did he break any law. Seriously, find me the law where he isn't allowed to get out of his truck. Find me the law that says he isn't allowed to be on the phone with police trying to get them on the scene.

Clearly he was evading, and evading was not working. Martin then stopping and attacking may have been a stupid decision, but does that justify Zimmerman killing him?

He really did a great job attempting to evade the 250 IB overweight man.

The scenario that is still under investigation as to what actually happened? That scenario?

The scenario where all testimony from eye witnesses corroborate Zimmerman? That scenario?

The evidence certainly suggests someone who believed he had more authority and right to his actions then he actually did. So what Vic is saying isn't completely baseless hyperbole.

He did nothing illegal, nor did he indicate he had any authority. What did he do? He got on the phone with police and wanted them there ASAP.

Sure. Like a vastly overweight 5'2" White/Mexican guy with a gun. Like George Zimmerman.

Who Trayvon did not know was armed.

Allegedly.

Either way, even if it was Zimmerman attacking, which I highly doubt, Trayvon forfeited all claim of self defense by bashing his head against the ground. That happens in almost all jurisdictions. Even stand your ground.

Following in a truck and then on foot to a piece of private property isn't chasing? Looks like chasing to me..

I'd call i following.

According to Zimmerman.

Trayvon turned around and engaged. That's pretty clear intent to confront.

That seems pretty clear. He was inquiring as to why he was being followed. Seems reasonable.

Meh, I give you that part. Doesn't explain the part where he's on top bashing his head against the ground.

Sorry for the short replies and the rest of the post being cut out, I was running out of characters.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 26th, 2012 @ 11:45 PM Reply

At 3/26/12 11:07 PM, RacistBassist wrote:
They don't wish him to, but it is also not an active order to stand down. There's a huge difference. A lot of cops also don't want you to fight back a lot of the time but instead run, but that's also not an order.

This doesn't really make him look any better. If the police say they didn't need him to keep hounding him, what reason would he have to continue following?

There is a huge difference between the two.

There is, and apparently Zimmerman has difficulty grasping this concept, as other neighborhood watch members have expressed difficulties
with his behavior in the past.

Nothing. Zimm was following. Didn't try to confront.

How do you know Zimmerman didn't confront him? Do you have a video recording the rest of us aren't privy to? You're treating your speculations (whether plausible or not) as if they are fact.

Following in his truck. Following. Not trying to confront.

Again, how do you know he didn't? He obviously got out of his vehicle at some point. How do you know how the situation escalated into violence? You just seem to be assuming that there is nothing in between Zimmer stepping out of his vehicle and Martin throwing punches at him.

So basically it ends up with Trayvon having more of a right to be in the neighborhood, so he can just attack him? Reports of the time spent following differ, but most indicate it at around one block. Trayvon turned around to confront him, or Zimmerman blocked him off in the truck, which is just pure conjecture.

He has a right to be in a neighborhood without being hounded by somebody who is completely unrelated to law enforcement hounding him while armed for being guilty of "suspicious activity" , and without being threatened by a weapon if that is indeed what happened.

Yes, and I've had people get road rage on me since we were going the same way. Therefore, they can attack me right?

You're starting to not make much sense, if I may say so.

but remember, he was the one attacked.

You do not know this. You keep insisting this is the case, but unless you're pulling some Jedi farsight ESP crime solving shit, it has absolutely no foundation in fact and you're just insisting that we take your word that this is true without any evidence that Martin jumped Zimmer with no provocation.

Zimmerman clearly believed this kid was scoping places out to commit a crime. He was trying to prevent it. He did not block him off in his car and attack him, he called 9-11 and followed.

And then continued to follow after being told it wasn't necessary of even helpful to the police, while armed, and ended up getting himself into a fight by some means and killed somebody who, for all we know, wasn't even committing a crime in the first place. What need would he have for exiting his vehicle with a weapon and stalking somebody if he wasn't planning to use it? The circumstances make it seem incredibly likely that Zimmerman was motivated to perform some sort of vigilante act, which is the exact opposite of Neighborhood Watch protocol.

Uh, he does have the right to be armed, and he was on the phone with police. He did nothing illegal, nor did he violate any rights.

He has the right to be armed, but following somebody while armed for the sole purpose of "needing to defend yourself" from somebody who isn't actively attacking or vandalizing anything would make any competent judge view your case under an extremely different light. It means that for some reason Zimmerman was likely expecting there to be some sort of altercation where he might possibly need to defend himself, which if that is the case, why didn't he steer clear of the individual he thought dangerous when the police told him that following him was pointless. Intentionally putting yourself into harm's way in order to get an opportunity to fire at somebody is indeed a crime, regardless of it being a difficult one to prove.

It's perfectly legal and moral to carry a gun, and following criminals through the neighborhood but not going up to them is perfectly within the rights.

Now you're labeling Martin as a criminal, even though all he is guilty of insofar as we know is looking suspicious. Not to mention the fact that quite thoroughly every last action that Zimmerman took is in direct contradictions of things that Neighborhood Watch practices.

Cool. My grandparents were part of the watch. Didn't stop him from being packing. Considering that, you know, criminals don't take kindly to people reporting them.

That's why you stay out of site and notify the police, not track them down in your vehicle and potentially put yourself in harm's way. Carrying a gun isn't observing and reporting, it's observing and thinking you should take the law into your own hands. If you see somebody doing something you believe to be dangerous, you report it and go back inside your own home where it is safe. Being armed inside your home makes sense, following somebody you believe could be dangerous doesn't.

He's the neighbor watch. It's what he does. He did so at a distance.

Do you do Neighborhood Watch? Because I used to in the not so great area I lived in here in Phoenix and not once was anybody ever told that you should follow potential criminals unless they are posing an immediate danger to somebody else or their property. If they flee, they flee. You call the police and notify them. You don't chase them down.

The scenario where all testimony from eye witnesses corroborate Zimmerman? That scenario?

There are no witnesses that reported exactly who attacked who first and how the shooting occurred, as you yourself readily admitted, so I'm not sure why you feel so free to take artistic liberty with the story and fill in the gaps yourself.

Who Trayvon did not know was armed.

How do you know this? How do you know there weren't vocal threats, that the weapon wasn't flashed or even drawn? The only eye witness we have as to how exactly the altercation between the two started was shot in the face.

Either way, even if it was Zimmerman attacking, which I highly doubt, Trayvon forfeited all claim of self defense by bashing his head against the ground. That happens in almost all jurisdictions. Even stand your ground.

Uh, no he didn't. If Martin was aware of the fact that ZImmerman was armed, and Zimmerman did in fact assault Martin, he would have no reason to believe that Zimmerman wouldn't use the weapon against him (and hey it looks like he was correct), and would have every right to act until Zimmerman was incapacitated. Armed assault is the same crime weather your weapon is holstered or in your hands, and the response to the weapon's presence doesn't change based off of whether or not you brandish it while attacking somebody. They have every right to respond appropriately to an armed threat. If Zimmerman tossed his weapon and laid face down and Martin continued to kick his head in, you might have a point here, but that apparently didn't happen.

I'd call i following.

No, getting close enough for somebody to take a swing at you is chasing them. "Chasing" somebody doesn't imply speed or method of transportation, it implies intent. According to the dictionary:

chase/CHÄs/
Verb:

Pursue in order to catch or catch up with: "police chased the stolen car"; "the dog chased after the stick".

Which, to any reasonable person, sounds exactly like what Zimmerman was doing. If you disagree with that assessment I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on why he would exit his vehicle where he is safer and put himself directly into a range where Martin could retaliate physically.

Trayvon turned around and engaged. That's pretty clear intent to confront.

As is getting out of your vehicle and approaching somebody while armed.

Meh, I give you that part. Doesn't explain the part where he's on top bashing his head against the ground.

Allow me to use the sweeping blanket statement justification you seem to have no problem applying to Zimmerman: "It was self defense."


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He wanted orange. The world gave him lemon-lime"

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 12:12 AM Reply

Oh thank goodness... I was so not looking forward to having to have this argument with Racist. You guys saved me a headache, VictorGrey, aviewaskewed, and Famas. Couldn't have said it better myself.

<3


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 12:26 AM Reply

At 3/25/12 11:57 AM, Iron-Hampster wrote: as for my stance both sides are his word against theirs and have probably made up their minds about what happened before gathering evidence to support their stance.

I hear what your saying, and your right on the part that the media does exaggerate the story. But the evidence cries out guilty all on its own. I've herd that this isn't the first incident this has happened, only the one that broke the camels back. The community has been having issues with the police and their racial profiling habits and they admit to it. The facts that are in this case: zimmerman pursued the boy when told not to by police, and ended up killing a kid armed with skittles and tea. Afterwards zimmerman claims self defense, even though the eye witness from the 911 call describes him on top of the young boy.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 02:01 AM Reply

At 3/27/12 12:26 AM, Greggg586 wrote:
At 3/25/12 11:57 AM, Iron-Hampster wrote: as for my stance both sides are his word against theirs and have probably made up their minds about what happened before gathering evidence to support their stance.
I hear what your saying, and your right on the part that the media does exaggerate the story. But the evidence cries out guilty all on its own. I've herd that this isn't the first incident this has happened, only the one that broke the camels back. The community has been having issues with the police and their racial profiling habits and they admit to it. The facts that are in this case: zimmerman pursued the boy when told not to by police, and ended up killing a kid armed with skittles and tea. Afterwards zimmerman claims self defense, even though the eye witness from the 911 call describes him on top of the young boy.

My biggest problem with media bias, especially in cases like this, is that it ALWAYS seems to do both of 2 things: favour the defendants chances of getting off Scott free on claims of mistrial or some shit, and then slander the piss out of him. It is lose lose, if he hypothetically is really is innocent, he will forever be known as the Hispanic version of OJ, If he really is guilty, he's not getting any jail time. It is just that much more likely when "race" is involved.

So the evidence points him to be guilty, the media is only hurting the odds of the victim's family getting justice.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 02:10 AM Reply

Zimmerman is a genius. You can kill anyone you want. Just hold a gun and put your victim into a situation where he defends himself. Then blow his fucking brains out in self defense.


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 03:06 AM Reply

At 3/27/12 02:10 AM, MrFlopz wrote: Zimmerman is a genius. You can kill anyone you want. Just hold a gun and put your victim into a situation where he defends himself. Then blow his fucking brains out in self defense.

Yeah.

I'm gonna go cuss out random people I don't like the looks of, until they take a swing at me.

Then when they do, I'm going to blow their heads off because that's morally and legally justified in the minds of some sorry examples of humanity. It's "Self Defense."

I Might even you know, stalk a few others for a while beforehand and try to scared them into running into somebody's yard and start a having a shootout, yeehaw. Maybe I'll dress up for it.

I'll be a hero.

Don't they realize what good I'd do. Don't they know?
Hell do you Even KNOW who I am?!?!?!

In seriousness people must not fully grasp justifiable self defense. All self defense, isn't justifiable.

I am Vengence. I am the Night. I Am Zimmerman!

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 05:37 AM Reply

Ok so I was listening to the news and this is overall what happens, correct me if I'm wrong. Zimmerman sees what he suspects as a suspicious person and calls police. during the conversation he is heard saying "they always get away", he says some other things too. the police tells him not to peruse, but does anyway. Trayvon was said to be on the phone with his girlfriend when she herd trayvon and zimmerman. Zimmerman asks Trayvon what's he doing here and Trayvon responds, why are you following me. His girlfriend said she herd trayvon about to speak when he was interrupted in the middle speaking, she suspects he must have been shoved. there are to shots fired and trayvon died from the second shot. although I don't know how he got on his face, because that's how zimmerman left him


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 05:44 AM Reply

We don't have to make some sort of conclusive judgement as people on the internet regarding a news story. We do have the ability to say "I don't know what happened. I can't really say for sure. It appears X took place but it could have been Y".

I mean these conversations can definitely be interesting and stimulating to hash out disagreements over, but it can be kind of stupid when it gets to the point where people are convinced that they have the real scoop on the situation and that they need to enlighten everybody else so they can see what truly occurred.

Sometimes I think it's better to just say "I have no idea what the actual fuck happened here". Because at least that is true.


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He wanted orange. The world gave him lemon-lime"

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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 06:00 AM Reply

At 3/27/12 05:44 AM, Famas wrote: Sometimes I think it's better to just say "I have no idea what the actual fuck happened here". Because at least that is true.

you know something I appreciate that and it would be a meaning full statement, but as I recall I am not the one answering back 20 different people that disagree with my opinion. So excuse me if I put my 2 cents in


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Response to Trayvon Martin case gets Ugly Mar. 27th, 2012 @ 06:03 AM Reply

At 3/27/12 06:00 AM, Greggg586 wrote:
you know something I appreciate that and it would be a meaning full statement, but as I recall I am not the one answering back 20 different people that disagree with my opinion. So excuse me if I put my 2 cents in

That post wasn't aimed at anybody in particular, hombre, and certainly not you. It was more of a comment on this sort of discussion in general.


"R.I.P. Gunther Hermann - 2002-2052

He wanted orange. The world gave him lemon-lime"

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