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Antisemitism? Zionists? What?

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aviewaskewed
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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 19:24:29 Reply

At 1 hour ago, MrFlopz wrote: My apologies for derailing your topic OP. But when you bring up Israel, the discussion is bound to go in this direction.

Yeah, and it needs to go away from it...I'm getting sick of satanbrain's one track postings...we've seen it over and over again pal...please do not derail this thread with more of it. Back to the topic as was stated, or at the very least posts will start getting pruned to accomplish that.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 19:50:29 Reply

At 14 minutes ago, aviewaskewed wrote:
At 1 hour ago, MrFlopz wrote: My apologies for derailing your topic OP. But when you bring up Israel, the discussion is bound to go in this direction.
Yeah, and it needs to go away from it...I'm getting sick of satanbrain's one track postings...we've seen it over and over again pal...please do not derail this thread with more of it. Back to the topic as was stated, or at the very least posts will start getting pruned to accomplish that.

You're right. I've seen him post literally the exact same arguments on other threads. Back to Zionism in America:

I don't think Obama is appealing to Jewish voters alone, but also to Zionist lobbyists. Jews have a high rate of voter attendance but such a small percentage of the voting population shouldn't have that much of a pull. I believe it has a lot to do with Zionist lobbyists using their money and influence to fund presidential campaigns. If corporations can do it so can the Israelis. Our government's support of Israel is disproportionately high compared to American public support. Americans generally favor Israel but they aren't urging politicians to give 100%, unquestionable unconditional support.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 20:18:05 Reply

Along with the whole Jews are rich so they can lobby for things they want. They also have a high voter turn out and live in key electoral states.

"Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor," writes Mitchell Bard, who adds that Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group. While 2-2.5% of the United States population is Jewish, 94% live in 13 key electoral college states, which combined have enough electors to elect the president.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 22:49:14 Reply

At 2 hours ago, mhb18 wrote:

While 2-2.5% of the United States population is Jewish, 94% live in 13 key electoral college states, which combined have enough electors to elect the president.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 22:57:52 Reply

At 3 hours ago, MrFlopz wrote: I don't think Obama is appealing to Jewish voters alone, but also to Zionist lobbyists. Jews have a high rate of voter attendance but such a small percentage of the voting population shouldn't have that much of a pull. I believe it has a lot to do with Zionist lobbyists using their money and influence to fund presidential campaigns. If corporations can do it so can the Israelis. Our government's support of Israel is disproportionately high compared to American public support. Americans generally favor Israel but they aren't urging politicians to give 100%, unquestionable unconditional support.

I also forgot to mention look at the geo-political aspect as well earlier: Israel is the lone democracy in the Middle East we are on absolutely friendly terms with (for the longest time they were the lone democracy period), they are pro-West in an area that is usually anti-West. Israel represents a partner in a very very hostile region. Of course the problem as well is that Israel has not always dealt with their hostile neighbors in the best ways, chalking up any bad behavior to "well, they want us dead...so why isn't making them as dead as possible justifiable as 'defense'?" and of course there's questionable political and national identity policy...still though, the US has continued to take the tact that it's better to have unconditional support of Israel because of what they bring to us in terms of a partner and intelligence gatherer in a part of the world that pretty much wants our heads.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 23:26:48 Reply

Antisemitism:

The discrimination of Jews.

Zionists:

Jews who prominently support the sovereignty of the nation Israel and the return to it. They're basically Jewish patriots.

Jews:

A Jew is any person of Israeli or Hebrew descent that is Jewish by religion, nationality, or ethnicity. Israel is the only nation with a majority of Jews, so it's plausible to believe that most Jews did indeed have their ancestors immigrate from Israel. It's also okay to believe that the Jews all descended from the Biblical Abraham and Isaac.

That's what I know. I hope I answered your question.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 23:51:12 Reply

At 50 minutes ago, aviewaskewed wrote:
I also forgot to mention look at the geo-political aspect as well earlier: Israel is the lone democracy in the Middle East we are on absolutely friendly terms with (for the longest time they were the lone democracy period), they are pro-West in an area that is usually anti-West. Israel represents a partner in a very very hostile region. Of course the problem as well is that Israel has not always dealt with their hostile neighbors in the best ways, chalking up any bad behavior to "well, they want us dead...so why isn't making them as dead as possible justifiable as 'defense'?" and of course there's questionable political and national identity policy...still though, the US has continued to take the tact that it's better to have unconditional support of Israel because of what they bring to us in terms of a partner and intelligence gatherer in a part of the world that pretty much wants our heads.

I know. Israel does help us in the war on terror. But what makes it complicated is that American support of Israel is what people like the 9/11 hijackers were angry about in the first place. We support them because they help us deal with terrorism... But the terrorists are fighting us because we support them.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-17 23:52:09 Reply

much of the hostilities that people in the middle east have towards the United States is because of its unconditional support for Israel which in affect means fuck the Palestinians. Along with that the US has supported tyranny in the Middle East for about 30 years. Perhaps if the US wasn't so pro-Israel the region wouldn't be so Anti America.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 01:44:48 Reply

At 7 hours ago, lapis wrote: Can you find me a genetic test that can separate a German Jew from a German, a Moroccan Jew from a Moroccan, put the German and Moroccan Jew together but separate both Jews from a Palestinian Arab? Bet you can't.

First - "Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe ". Second - Ethnic communities in Israel: The genetic blood markers of the Moroccan Jews- "Comparisons with meager data on the neighboring non-Jewish populations do not disclose any resemblance to either Arab or Berber inhabitants of Morocco.".

Because thanks to 1000+ years of genetic intermixing between the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews of Jerusalem, Tzfat and Tveria,

How do you know there was any intermixing?

I bet most Palestinians can trace at last some of their genetic lineage back to king David, even if they completely self-identify as Arab, rendering your whole genetic argument nonsensical if it wasn't so already.

So? They can be partially jewish but mostly palestinian arabs. Jewish and arab ancestry do not contradict.

At 11 hours ago, MrFlopz wrote: That's MY argument! I'm saying that crimes are not hereditary. You are saying the opposite. You are saying that because you can trace back a bloodline you can somehow undo injustices committed in history.

I cannot punish, cannot expel other inhabitants of my land. But I do have the right on my own land.

That their descendants inherit that injustice and that somehow everyone who shares genetic material with the Israelites has been wronged. It doesn't work that way. I'm sure my ancestors have gone through horrible things in history. Everyone has ancestors that have been wronged.

Does everyone persist in these injustices?

If a millionaire loses his wealth unjustly, should his descendants 10 generations later be made millionaires?

Currency changes but if his home was unjustly stolen, his descendants should reclaim it.

Should we attempt to go through history and undo every wrong that was committed against our gene pool?

No. We should protect human rights and not violate them by reinstating lands.

We just have to go forward and learn from the past. Not rearrange our locations on the globe to something that is more "fair".

Then how can we rearrange our ideals to something which is more fair? You claim that the fact something has been that way for so long justify it, that invalidates modern concepts that deny the middle ages'.

Nations are not set in stone. Just because a nation comes to be does not mean it should always exist. Nations rise and fall.

But not all nations are extinct. Do you wish to let them assimilate to another nation because you do not wish to give them their land?

To say "that country's decline was wrong! Let's undo it!" is preposterous. The Kingdom of Israel will never return. What we have today is a secular European nation state on what happens to be the same land.

European? Genetic studies have proved otherwise. We're middle easterns.

The Israelis are NOT the Israelites.

We are the offsprings of judea tribe.

They may have some Hebrew roots, but what about their Russian, German or Polish ancestry?

Less dominant than the hebraic roots.

Why is that side of the family tree ignored? Where do you think names like "Goldstein", "Rosenberg", "Braflovsky" etc. come from?

Prosecution by their neighbors?

Ancient Israel? Of course not!

They have adopted local family names (in the bible there weren't). The act does not decrease their relation to the israelites.

A large portion of their family tree is European. Why is the Hebrew part the only one that matters?

It is the dominant. Were the european portion dominant, they would've been european.

You seem to be unwilling to listen to reason. Any reasonable person would understand that rearranging the world to 7th century borders is not a logical course of action.

Of course it isn't. In 7th century many lands, including israel, were wrongly occupied.

This is the 21st century. Why should we go back to the 7th? What would that accomplish? You only want this particular ancient nation to "return" because you benefit from it.

I want every nation to claim it's land. For the sake of self determination.


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 02:30:35 Reply

@Satan

<IRRELEVANT TO THREAD>It's funny you said anyone unjustly expelled from their home has a right to it. I made a similar analogy on a different thread. Say you buy a home. The house is unowned and it seems like a great place to start a family. You move in with your wife and raise a family there. 20 years later, the original home owner is released from prison. It turns out he was sentenced to life in prison for a crime he did not commit. New evidence surfaces that proves his innocence. Should you be evicted and thrown out onto the streets because this guy lost his house unjustly? You bought your home legally, so why should you be punished because of this man's unfortunate circumstances?</IRRELEVANT TO THREAD>

And as the mod pointed out, we need to get back on topic. Let's debate Zionist influence over America. I believe the Isreali lobby has quite a bit of pull in our government. They don't necessarily "control" us, but they do sway us, and I believe it is dangerous for the United States to focus on Israel's interests above our own. Did you know that The United States has decreased domestic funding while increasing funding to Israel at a time where the United States is in a desperate economic struggle? Did you know there's a law that the United States cannot decrease funding to Israel? I don't know about you, but this extreme form of support seems dangerous and highly suspicious.

Feel free to respond, but I'll only reply to the part about Zionism in America. You're just going around in circles with the whole nonsense of ethic groups and nations have rights to land while individual human beings who live there do not.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 06:53:38 Reply

At 7 hours ago, PsyhcoWalrus wrote: It's also okay to believe that the Jews all descended from the Biblical Abraham and Isaac.

Indeed. Just like it's okay to believe that all Italians descended from the war god Mars.

At 5 hours ago, satanbrain wrote:
At 7 hours ago, lapis wrote: Can you find me a genetic test that can separate a German Jew from a German, a Moroccan Jew from a Moroccan, put the German and Moroccan Jew together but separate both Jews from a Palestinian Arab? Bet you can't.
First - "Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe ". Second - Ethnic communities in Israel: The genetic blood markers of the Moroccan Jews- "Comparisons with meager data on the neighboring non-Jewish populations do not disclose any resemblance to either Arab or Berber inhabitants of Morocco.".

You're missing the crucial third and fourth steps of what I asked for, and hence the point; I'm not saying that you can't distinguish Jews from their "host" populations, I'm saying that the genetic markers that you use to group Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews together to separate them from the hosts are also carried by Palestinian Arabs, making your "we own the land through genetic ancestry" claim silly.

But whatever, I'll refrain from posting on this topic in the future in order to allow the thread to get back on track.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 09:43:49 Reply

It's hilarious that Zionists bring up atrocities committed against Jews (one oppressed minority) to justify their insanitary policies against the Palestinians.

Irony: using genocide against Jews as an excuse for Israel's genocide against Palestine.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 11:53:59 Reply

At 4 hours ago, lapis wrote: You're missing the crucial third and fourth steps of what I asked for, and hence the point; I'm not saying that you can't distinguish Jews from their "host" populations, I'm saying that the genetic markers that you use to group Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews together to separate them from the hosts are also carried by Palestinian Arabs, making your "we own the land through genetic ancestry" claim silly.

"Investigations made by Nebel et al.[17] on the genetic relationships among Ashkenazi Jews, Kurdish and Sephardi (North Africa, Turkey, Iberian Peninsula, Iraq and Syria) indicate that Jews are more genetically similar to groups in northern Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks and Armenians) than to Arabs". We do not share this gene pool with palestinians to the level that we would be the same nation because we share more in common with people not of our nation. That is logical since palestinans are the descendants of arabs (who originate in arabia) and other nations who were exiled into israel.


(הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל. דּוֹר הֹלֵךְ וְדוֹר בָּא, וְהָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמָדֶת. (קהלת א ג, ה

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 12:12:24 Reply

Can we drop the genetics argument already? First of all, you don't seem to know enough about genetics to argue it Satanbrain. Second, it's absurd to claim that someone has certain rights due to their genetic ancestry. If you're making an argument that involves proving your genetic purity and reaping the benefits you deserve from your DNA, you're going to sound like a racist early 20th century geneticist. In the 21st century everyone has the same rights regardless of DNA. Third, and most important, get back on topic. This topic has nothing to do with genetics. Does Israel have control over the United States? How much control? Are they in charge of the country, or do they have a considerable amount of sway. Or do they not have any influence on the United States and this is all propaganda. I know you've seen my posts Satanbrain, please respond.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 12:42:09 Reply

At 2 hours ago, Cometstyle wrote: It's hilarious that Zionists bring up atrocities committed against Jews (one oppressed minority) to justify their insanitary policies against the Palestinians.

Irony: using genocide against Jews as an excuse for Israel's genocide against Palestine.

Whoops, should have said Palestinians.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 14:45:31 Reply

Zionism is an ideology that a racist group of Jewish people who believe they are more worthy than the "Goyim."

I fucking hate when people call me an anti-Semite for my views on Israel. Israel is NOT a religion, one can despise Israel, yet have no hatred towards Jewish people. Especially since I probably have more fucking Semitic DNA than most Jewish people alive today.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 15:59:32 Reply

At 55 minutes ago, Cochises wrote: Zionism is an ideology that a racist group of Jewish people who believe they are more worthy than the "Goyim."

I fucking hate when people call me an anti-Semite for my views on Israel. Israel is NOT a religion, one can despise Israel, yet have no hatred towards Jewish people. Especially since I probably have more fucking Semitic DNA than most Jewish people alive today.

Yup. Israel is a nation. But somehow disagreeing with the actions of a nation makes one bigoted against the ethnic group that controls it. People act like the only defining feature of Israel is that fact that it is a Jewish nation. Therefore the only reason you can disagree with its actions is because you don't like Jews. It's as if Israel is nothing more than Judaism put in the form of a nation and every action is fueled by the fact that they are Jewish. Meanwhile they pursue their xenophobic, imperialistic crusade against Arabs in the middle east under the veil of "defense" and "self-determination".

Anti-Semitism: The irrational hatred or fear of semetic peoples; almost exclusively used to describe anti-Jewish bigotry.

Zionism: The political belief that the Jews have the right to establish a majority Jewish nation on Muslim soil in Palestine because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. This involves the forced expulsion of the Palestinian people to establish a majority Jewish nation. It also involves the denial of the right to return for these Palestinian refugees.

Zionism prioritizes Jewish life over Arab life. Zionists often claim that you either fall under the "Zionist" category or the "Anti-Semite" category and that there is no middle ground. This argument is especially prominent in America. Israelis and Europeans have more information about the Israel/Palestine conflict and are more understanding of the plight of the Palestinians. We Americans, however, get our news filtered so most of us simply don't know what goes on in Israel. Therefore, Americans are prone to check the box for Zionist and don't understand why someone would disagree with Zionism. Personally, I pick none on the above.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 17:49:14 Reply

At 1 day ago, mhb18 wrote: The settlements are considered illegal by everyone except Israel. More importantly they are considered illegal by the UN and the International Court of Justice which made a ruling on the matter.

and who the fuck actually listens to the UN?

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 20:41:26 Reply

At 8 hours ago, MrFlopz wrote: Can we drop the genetics argument already?

The genetics argument is over. If you want to continue it, do so via PM. This has been debated to death in a prior thread about Israel and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OP'S QUESTION!!! Thus it is irrelevant. No more warnings. Future posts on genetics or any other irrelevant material will be deleted the minute I see them and bans may be handed out at my discretion. Absolutely sick of the usual suspects derailing these kinds of threads and taking them back to irrelevant, badly argued junk that's already been done to death before.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 20:44:30 Reply

At 2 hours ago, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: and who the fuck actually listens to the UN?

People who could get blown up by unfriendly UN members for a start...that's why Iraq was cooperating with weapons inspectors when it was clear George Bush was looking for an excuse to invade. It's the same reason why Iran has cooperated to a degree instead of just saying "we just want nuclear power, prove we don't or stfu! Bye now".


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-18 21:00:59 Reply

At 6 hours ago, Cochises wrote: Zionism is an ideology that a racist group of Jewish people who believe they are more worthy than the "Goyim."

i guess no one likes discussing non-Jewish zionists.

...or non-racist zionism.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-19 00:32:28 Reply

At 3 hours ago, SolInvictus wrote:
At 6 hours ago, Cochises wrote: Zionism is an ideology that a racist group of Jewish people who believe they are more worthy than the "Goyim."
i guess no one likes discussing non-Jewish zionists.
...or non-racist zionism.

At it's core, Zionism is a racist ideology, because it prioritizes Jews over Arabs. But you don't have to be racist to be a Zionist. And yes, plenty of non Jewish Americans are strong supporters of Zionism. Such as Christians who want the Jews to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem so Jesus can return.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-20 01:31:58 Reply

At 4 days ago, DeliciousW wrote: Maybe I'm just young, but what is meant by "zionists control America"? I don't understand. Yes, you have the ignorant bigots shouting "Kill the jews! Also all other colors! White power!" But then you also have seemingly intelligent people who agree that the Jews are the root of every country's problems (including a few of our own founding fathers).

Which must be why George Washington gave a speech to a synagogue praising Judaism and declaring freedom of religion in the USA.

What do they mean? All jewish men, women, or children? Or just a few Jewish people? Is it race they are talking about, or religious creed? If it's religion, do they include converts to Judaism? Or people who convert out to other beliefs? And if it is race, what about those with only partial Jewish ancestry? And what are zionists?

All depends on who you talk to. You won't find many things that all Jews agree on. Some orthodox say that Jewish ancestry makes you a Jew. Others like myself say it's based on what you practice and believe.

Honestly, I'm just not sure how to approach this. What is the thought process? What do the people who say these things believe? If any of you are out there, I would honestly like to hear what you have to say about it. I'm not totally sure what they're even talking about.

You should contact a rabbi if you're interested. Here you'll get a lot of junk and conspiracy theories.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-20 16:55:10 Reply

At 15 hours ago, Ranger2 wrote: Which must be why George Washington gave a speech to a synagogue praising Judaism and declaring freedom of religion in the USA.

That has nothing to do with the pros and cons of modern Zionism...especially because Israel was a very vague idea for most Jews in 1776 and a 100 odd years away from a reality or concern at the time.

You should contact a rabbi if you're interested. Here you'll get a lot of junk and conspiracy theories.

I think getting information from a variety of sources is a good idea. Especially since as you just said not all Jews are going to agree on what constitutes Judaism or Zionism. Yes there are people who give junk and conspiracy theories, but there's also some folks what know a bit about what their talking about.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-26 08:33:42 Reply

At 10 days ago, ClickToPlay wrote: Zionism isn't Judaism.
But Zionists are Jewish.

Nope. Zionist just means you think that Israel is the state that should exist where Palestine is.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-26 08:41:42 Reply

At 5 minutes ago, camobch0 wrote:
At 10 days ago, ClickToPlay wrote: Zionism isn't Judaism.
But Zionists are Jewish.
Nope. Zionist just means you think that Israel is the state that should exist where Palestine is.

Meh, you get the point, can't really see a non-Jew Zionist at heart, it would go against everything a non-Jew believes in.


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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-02-28 20:03:33 Reply

Sorry, I cannot ascertain the facts. It may simply be a conspiracy theory.

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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-03-04 01:34:03 Reply

This

Loki
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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-03-12 06:37:21 Reply

Basically, people believe that NATO countries are controlled by people who believe the REAL MESSIAH will soon make a come-back in Isreal, for the ULTIMATE JUDGEMENT DAY, and that by supporting Israel, they will have the GRACES OF THE SAVIOUR.

I can only hope that's a big scam... because if the politicians you vote for actually believe in that crap... I'd rather vote for a 5 years old child.

Anyway, in all seriousness, there's no need to hate Jewish people as a whole, but I sure am not going to be friendly with somebody who thinks he or she is superior to me because of his or her religion (Judaism).

Fuck the "Chosen people" and whoever keeps propagating that non-sense.

If there really is a Messiah that will pop out of nowhere in Jerusalem, and whatnot, I don't think he'll care what your religion is.

Anyway, on this note, Religion is still in control of the world, and that's bullshit.

bismuthfeldspar
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Response to Antisemitism? Zionists? What? 2012-03-12 14:47:54 Reply

Well, there is nothing wrong with questioning authority and rejecting social controls imposed on you, just as long as you are logical about it, some conspiracy theories have a basis like speculating on whether someone's disappearance is related to their involvement with the mob.

The basis of outlandish conspiracy theories is passive aggression, a common theme is the belief that rather mundane things in society are insidious in nature which stems from the need to prove that you are in control, this is the equivalent of a victim of bullying over-reacting to legitimate criticism by someone who had no intention of causing offense, they are both responses to stress where the individual cannot justify or doesn't understand their feelings yet has to express them, both the conspiracy theorist and the bully victim would rather pre-empt possible abuse than risk being abused. Not necessarily skapegoating, more like they haven't properly defined the source of the problem, unless of course the conspiracy theorist starts blaming innocent people instead of secret societies.