At 7 hours ago, lapis wrote:
Can you find me a genetic test that can separate a German Jew from a German, a Moroccan Jew from a Moroccan, put the German and Moroccan Jew together but separate both Jews from a Palestinian Arab? Bet you can't.
First - "Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe ". Second - Ethnic communities in Israel: The genetic blood markers of the Moroccan Jews- "Comparisons with meager data on the neighboring non-Jewish populations do not disclose any resemblance to either Arab or Berber inhabitants of Morocco.".
Because thanks to 1000+ years of genetic intermixing between the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews of Jerusalem, Tzfat and Tveria,
How do you know there was any intermixing?
I bet most Palestinians can trace at last some of their genetic lineage back to king David, even if they completely self-identify as Arab, rendering your whole genetic argument nonsensical if it wasn't so already.
So? They can be partially jewish but mostly palestinian arabs. Jewish and arab ancestry do not contradict.
At 11 hours ago, MrFlopz wrote:
That's MY argument! I'm saying that crimes are not hereditary. You are saying the opposite. You are saying that because you can trace back a bloodline you can somehow undo injustices committed in history.
I cannot punish, cannot expel other inhabitants of my land. But I do have the right on my own land.
That their descendants inherit that injustice and that somehow everyone who shares genetic material with the Israelites has been wronged. It doesn't work that way. I'm sure my ancestors have gone through horrible things in history. Everyone has ancestors that have been wronged.
Does everyone persist in these injustices?
If a millionaire loses his wealth unjustly, should his descendants 10 generations later be made millionaires?
Currency changes but if his home was unjustly stolen, his descendants should reclaim it.
Should we attempt to go through history and undo every wrong that was committed against our gene pool?
No. We should protect human rights and not violate them by reinstating lands.
We just have to go forward and learn from the past. Not rearrange our locations on the globe to something that is more "fair".
Then how can we rearrange our ideals to something which is more fair? You claim that the fact something has been that way for so long justify it, that invalidates modern concepts that deny the middle ages'.
Nations are not set in stone. Just because a nation comes to be does not mean it should always exist. Nations rise and fall.
But not all nations are extinct. Do you wish to let them assimilate to another nation because you do not wish to give them their land?
To say "that country's decline was wrong! Let's undo it!" is preposterous. The Kingdom of Israel will never return. What we have today is a secular European nation state on what happens to be the same land.
European? Genetic studies have proved otherwise. We're middle easterns.
The Israelis are NOT the Israelites.
We are the offsprings of judea tribe.
They may have some Hebrew roots, but what about their Russian, German or Polish ancestry?
Less dominant than the hebraic roots.
Why is that side of the family tree ignored? Where do you think names like "Goldstein", "Rosenberg", "Braflovsky" etc. come from?
Prosecution by their neighbors?
Ancient Israel? Of course not!
They have adopted local family names (in the bible there weren't). The act does not decrease their relation to the israelites.
A large portion of their family tree is European. Why is the Hebrew part the only one that matters?
It is the dominant. Were the european portion dominant, they would've been european.
You seem to be unwilling to listen to reason. Any reasonable person would understand that rearranging the world to 7th century borders is not a logical course of action.
Of course it isn't. In 7th century many lands, including israel, were wrongly occupied.
This is the 21st century. Why should we go back to the 7th? What would that accomplish? You only want this particular ancient nation to "return" because you benefit from it.
I want every nation to claim it's land. For the sake of self determination.