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Rick Santorum Feb. 5th, 2012 @ 12:59 AM Reply

So with only four more candidates left in the GOP race, many people are talking about Rick Santorum as the 'true conservative'. Rick has, in fact, shown clear and solid records proving him as a 'consistent' conservative, and I've yet to hear a good argument against that idea.

But of course, that then branches off into the discussion of what 'conservatism' even is, and whether or not it's a good thing. But then that branches off into the discussion of the incumbent president, whether or not he is classified as 'liberal' and whether or not that is a bad thing.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 5th, 2012 @ 11:58 AM Reply

He seems to fit the current definition of "true conservative". That is in that he is very socially conservative and abhorrs Obama and whatever the Democrats do regardless of its merit.

As truly conservative as he is, the fact that he is laughed off by regulars just goes to show how unsuitable true conservatism is for the US.

FYI, something stinks around this thread...

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 5th, 2012 @ 02:19 PM Reply

Out of the four GOP candidates running right now, he is the one I like the least.


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 5th, 2012 @ 06:41 PM Reply

If by "true conservative" you mean "raging hypocrite", then yeah, I can totally see that. Like when he argues for capping the amount of money you can sue for medical malpractice at $250,000, but when Santorum's wife sues for medical malpractice, they sue for twice of that, $500,000.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G-JUuMDG lo


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i2SkilleD
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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 8th, 2012 @ 06:26 AM Reply

what a joke.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 8th, 2012 @ 12:30 PM Reply

They are all jokes, really. Santorum is just the least funny.


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 8th, 2012 @ 04:11 PM Reply

Dat 3 state win


.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 8th, 2012 @ 07:29 PM Reply

Obama has to be really enjoying the Republican primaries. What a goon show! Romney might've actually stood a chance in the general election -- a slim one, but a chance. However, by the time those bozos are through shredding each other and scaring the hell out of anyone with a lick of sense, not one of them will be electable.


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 8th, 2012 @ 09:07 PM Reply

At 3 days ago, Davoo wrote: So with only four more candidates left in the GOP race, many people are talking about Rick Santorum as the 'true conservative'. Rick has, in fact, shown clear and solid records proving him as a 'consistent' conservative, and I've yet to hear a good argument against that idea.

But of course, that then branches off into the discussion of what 'conservatism' even is, and whether or not it's a good thing. But then that branches off into the discussion of the incumbent president, whether or not he is classified as 'liberal' and whether or not that is a bad thing.

Santorum is definitely both an economic and a social conservative (and yes, it's important to separate those 2, as not everyone is on the same side of both spectrums).

However, it's not his conservatism that makes everyone but his base unwilling to vote for him. He also hates gays, hates all non-Christians, hates pretty much anyone having rights, wants to install his religion everywhere he can, and if it were possible to do so, would turn the US into a theocracy. He has a large, hardcore base of fundies that support this platform and ensure he's very popular in the Bible Belt, but is seen as a complete joke elsewhere. (Urban Dictionary the standard internet definition of "santorum", and the origin of how that came to be. WARNING: NSFW). Additionally, he wants to continue the Bush eonomic plan of racking up trillions in war debt (including a new one with Iran), while continuing to give tax breaks to the rich, bringing the country ever closer to ruin.

Santorum winning the nomination would be bad regardless of whether you consider yourself a conservative or a liberal. Here's why:

Conservative: Congrats, you've just picked a candidate that has ZERO support from moderates and moderate-liberals. Your chance of winning the next presidential election is, therefore, likewise zero. Had you aimed for someone who can push a couple of major things you want, but could find common ground on the rest, you'd have a good chance of winning. Santorum is very much not that guy.

Liberal: You would think Santorum winning the nomination would be awesome, since Obama then auto-wins, right? The problem is that it would be such a landslide that the Dems would win without having to commit to actually DOING anything, and would be unwilling to make any hard decisions to fix the economy. This is, obviously, a major problem. What we want is an opponent that forces the Dems to actually build a viable economic platform, which we can then force them to actually implement if they want to keep their jobs. Our economy is spiraling downhill, we can't afford 4 years of sitting around doing nothing.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 8th, 2012 @ 09:31 PM Reply

I think what'll happen with him is the same thing that happened with Gingrich, and people will start remembering what an asshole he is. Also, the longer the primaries go on, the more widely his far-right views will become known, and that'll turn off a lot of independents.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 9th, 2012 @ 05:31 PM Reply

Here's the thing: without understanding the intergroup dynamics of American politics, you can't understand much of anything about Santorum. This might take a while, but hopefully someone will actually read it.

I follow Mencius Moldbug in analyzing America as containing five distinct groups; more distinctly, five castes: social groups with their own internal status systems. (There's also a sixth, which Moldbug leaves out, but they're not relevant to electoral analysis, as far as I know.) The outline of the American caste system is here, but I'll summarize it because I know NG hates reading. So, the castes are as follows: (I'm quoting directly from Moldbug for a lot of this, since there's not much more I can do to summarize the relevant parts)
1. Brahmins, who define status by "scholarly achievement, success in an intellectual profession, or position of civic responsibility". If you're reading this now, you're probably a Brahmin, unless you're in high school, in which case you'll probably be one in four years.
2. Dalits, who define status by "power, wealth, and sexual success" for men and "attractiveness and popularity" for women.
3. Helots, imported peasants who define status by "hard work, money and power" for men and "attractiveness, motherhood, and association with successful men" for women. (This caste is also not all that relevant for electoral analysis; Helots generally can't vote, and at least according to Moldbug, their children generally turn out Dalit.)
4. Optimates, the aristocratic caste, who pretty much aren't around anymore.
5. Vaisyas, who define status by social (especially church) participation and, for men, gainful employment. (Moldbug also lists family life, but I'm not so sure about that one; I know quite a few unmarried Vaisyas.)
To that list I'd add a sixth relevant caste: the Baniyas (or, perhaps, post-Optimates; the outline of that caste in the comments seems remarkably similar), who define status in terms of wealth and place/position of employment.

Now we can move on into the fun part: contemporary American partisan politics, or rather, the cultural conflict at the center of said politics. This is outlined here; again, I'll summarize. Broadly speaking, the Democrats are the party of Brahmins, Dalits, and Helots, and the Republicans are the party of Optimates and Vaisyas. This division is referred to as the BDH-OV conflict. (Baniyas, who aren't in Moldbug's analysis, are generally associated with the Republicans, but I suspect they'd have much less of a problem with changing their alliances than the other castes would. On the other hand, they tend historically to be more welcome on the OV side.) However, on top of that is the race divide: blacks and most Hispanics (specifically, those without ties to Cuba or Venezuela) generally vote Democratic, regardless of their caste.

We now have most of the picture assembled; we only need two more. The first is that humans are fundamentally social -- more specifically, tribal. We see things in terms of ingroups and outgroups. We like our guys to have as much power as possible, and we don't like Those Bastards, Over There getting their guys anywhere near the reins. (If you need any examples of this, consider the average high school. The nonconformist is a much rarer beast than we like to imagine, and when we do come across one, we send him to a couch and get a man with a long list of letters after his name to throw Latin-sounding terms and expensive pills at him. Alternatively, take an introductory class in social psychology.) The second is that these castes generally do not share cultures: not all Brahmins in America are members of the Doctor Who fandom, but you'd need to fling the decimal point pretty far to the left to get the percentage of members of the Doctor Who fandom who are not Brahmins. There are better markers of caste allegiance than that, of course. In fact, there are two that are very reliable markers of Brahmindom: abortion and gay marriage. Most Brahmins support them, and most non-Brahmins do not. (I think this even cuts across racial lines, although I've met very few black or Hispanic Brahmins, so I can't say with much certainty, although stories abound of black Democrats whipping the white ones into all sorts of righteous fury by supposedly leading to the defeat of gay marriage laws.)

And guess what Santorum is known for? Opposition to abortion and gay marriage.

Not only that, but he's in the right tribe. Romney's financial background, family history, and coastal/liberal background mark him off as a clear non-Vaisya; more specifically, a Baniya. (The label 'post-Optimate' for the latter caste may make that connection more obvious. His father, remember, was both a businessman and a governor.) Not only that, but he refuses to do what George W. Bush did: hide his background and run straight OV. Gingrich is an academic (Brahmin alert!) with a reputation for supporting large government projects (Brahmin alert!) and being a delusional wanker (Br--ah, damn, I suppose I don't really get to call that one.), and Paul is a raging ideologue. For Vaisyas who are feeling more tribal than pragmatic and were alive during the Gingrich years, Santorum is really the only option.

As for the man himself, his wrongness on any issue directly correlates with how much control the White House has over that issue: he's not a loot-and-pillage neoliberal*, but he's a Wilsonian, which puts him right out as far as I'm concerned.

* I'm not even sure if he's a liberal (in the sense of the word that's used everywhere outside American partisan politics) at all. What a refreshing change that would be from the parade of wankers we normally get in this country, trumpeting ideas so self-evidently wrong that one cannot avoid being reminded of Monty Python, if only he didn't want to conquer the earth in the name of said ideas.


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TNT
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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 9th, 2012 @ 11:12 PM Reply

I noticed that he actually won some states other than Iowa.

Sometimes I think this country is downright despicable...


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 9th, 2012 @ 11:40 PM Reply

Looking at the situation...

Ron Paul I believe is ultraconservative. The guy the nuts like Rush Limbaugh would go for. And Gerald Celente, who keeps saying that the economy is screwed and we will have a new Great Depression worse than the first. Yeah, Ron Paul is way too right-wing.

Newt Gingrich feels like a guy whose time was during the Clinton era. He also seems to be more conservative than say, Mitt Romney.

Rick Santorum...Who? I feel like he is a guy that popped up out of nowhere. I don't seem to know much about him.

I personally prefer Mitt Romney as the Republican candidate.
Of course, I prefer anyone who can do away with this ***bleep*** ***bleep*** ***bleep*** DEBT crap!
And given the situation, it might be up to the American people to fix that.


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TNT
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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 9th, 2012 @ 11:46 PM Reply

At 2 minutes ago, Th-e wrote: Looking at the situation...

Ron Paul I believe is ultraconservative. The guy the nuts like Rush Limbaugh would go for. And Gerald Celente, who keeps saying that the economy is screwed and we will have a new Great Depression worse than the first. Yeah, Ron Paul is way too right-wing.

Ron Paul is not for the war on terror, the Patriot Act, the drug war, the Stop Online Piracy Act, and those classify him as an ultraconservative? The only thing that is conservative at all is how the economy should be handled, and abortion to a degree. If anything, he falls under the libertarian category.


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BenjaminTibbetts
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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 10th, 2012 @ 02:53 AM Reply

I'm just amazed he's survived the lube and fecal matter thing.


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 10th, 2012 @ 04:05 AM Reply

Can we get someone who is just that right blend of liberal and conservative, pragmatic but not a pushover?

Oh wait there's no drama, money, or buzzwords that can be used to sell pundit books in common sense, nevermind.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 10th, 2012 @ 11:43 AM Reply

At 8 hours ago, BenjaminTibbetts wrote: I'm just amazed he's survived the lube and fecal matter thing.

No, it makes perfect sense. Anyone who gives a damn about Dan Savage wouldn't vote for him in the first place.


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 11th, 2012 @ 06:00 PM Reply

At 5 days ago, Angry-Hatter wrote: If by "true conservative" you mean "raging hypocrite", then yeah, I can totally see that. Like when he argues for capping the amount of money you can sue for medical malpractice at $250,000, but when Santorum's wife sues for medical malpractice, they sue for twice of that, $500,000.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G-JUuMDG lo

He's a greedy cunt. He's just in it for himself and he'll do whatever it takes to get elected.

Look at this bullshit:

http://tyrannyoftradition.com/2012/02/10/rick-santorum-decla res-war-on-heavy-metal/

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 11th, 2012 @ 10:36 PM Reply

Santorum is trash, he is the enemy of individual freedom and liberty, the fact that there are people would be willing to vote for him disgusts me.

Here is something that everyone should know about him.


You know what would be really neat? These things actually being noticeable.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 11th, 2012 @ 10:54 PM Reply

Yeah, fuck that guy.


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 11th, 2012 @ 11:10 PM Reply

At 29 minutes ago, Fluffington wrote: Santorum is trash, he is the enemy of individual freedom and liberty, the fact that there are people would be willing to vote for him disgusts me.

Here is something that everyone should know about him.

Santorum is a nutcase. The fact that the media takes him more seriously than Ron Paul is a damn shame.

LordZeebmork
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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 12th, 2012 @ 01:00 AM Reply

At 51 minutes ago, Fluffington wrote: Santorum is trash, he is the enemy of individual freedom and liberty, the fact that there are people would be willing to vote for him disgusts me.

And this is a bad thing why?


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TomStheVoice
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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 12th, 2012 @ 10:14 AM Reply

Rick should take a load of Santorum to the face before thinking he can run this country.

Seriously, I don't like him at all.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 12th, 2012 @ 11:47 AM Reply

Santorum is the biggest hypocrite I've seen run this election. That to me is true Conservatism. He's clueless as well. For instance, claiming that gas prices caused the financial crisis? Do your research; that's only one of the many bullshit claims he's made. To top it all off, he's a typical conservative racist/sexist/bible thumper. Don't even get me started on his love for a large government. In my opinion, he won't last long.

LordZeebmork, very well written post, my friend.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 12th, 2012 @ 02:18 PM Reply

At 13 hours ago, LordZeebmork wrote: And this is a bad thing why?

....what?


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 12th, 2012 @ 11:41 PM Reply

At 4 days ago, EmmaVolt wrote: They are all jokes, really. Santorum is just the least funny.

but if he were to win he would suddenly be hilarious against Obama.


ya hear about the guy who put his condom on backwards? He went.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 13th, 2012 @ 09:39 AM Reply

At 9 hours ago, Iron-Hampster wrote: but if he were to win he would suddenly be hilarious against Obama.

I dunno. The chance of him even being that close to the Presidency will be just too damn scary for me to laugh.

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 13th, 2012 @ 07:57 PM Reply

At 9 hours ago, Camarohusky wrote:
At 9 hours ago, Iron-Hampster wrote: but if he were to win he would suddenly be hilarious against Obama.
I dunno. The chance of him even being that close to the Presidency will be just too damn scary for me to laugh.

For those who might be so inclined as to favor the future success of the Republican party, perhaps suffering a landslide defeat is preferable to a somewhat narrow defeat in that it might teach Republican voters a lesson about nominating an extreme candidate for President, and I'm fairly certain that Santorum is such a candidate and will, if nominated, suffer such a defeat. It might not be a 1972 McGovern-esque defeat, but it would surely be on par with the 1988 Dukakis defeat. An Obama v. Santorum matchup wouldn't be close.

Usually it takes a chock like that to bring a party back to it's senses and nominate someone a little bit more sane (see Huntsman, Jon M.; Christie, Chris; Bush, Jeb).


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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 14th, 2012 @ 05:56 AM Reply

To top it off, I would begin to violate Godwin's Law: Rick Santorum=Adolf Hitler.


I still like Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven!

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Response to Rick Santorum Feb. 14th, 2012 @ 02:14 PM Reply

The problem with Rick Santorum in the general election if he would get nominated as a candidate for the presidency are social issues that's going to make him huge amounts of independent support.

1. Gay Marriage

For one thing, an overwhelming amount of young voters under the age of 30 support gay marriage. There goes a huge chunk of voters that can (as we've seen) make or break an election. In New Jersey, with their gay marriage, about 75% of people under 30 support gay marriage. In contrast, Obama's stance on gay marriage is changing,but not enough to outright support it. (I think personally he does, but does not support it publicly for political purposes) Because of Santorum's hard stance on such an issue, he's going to lose a lot of young voters. It doesn't take a genius to see the inevitability of gay marriage being legalized, especially with again the New Jersey bill and Prop 8 being overturned.

2. Women in Combat
Women in combat? Let's not even go there. That's just plain stupid. It hasn't even happened yet and he's against it. There goes some more votes.

These two issues alone can sink a candidate, especially in the general election. Santorum's not going anywhere fast.


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