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At 1/20/12 02:35 PM, paradigmvulpes wrote: i need help. i want to learn to make 8-bit music, but i am having nothing but problems. I've run through five or six free programs and i seriously can't figure out even how to make a note. that is all i need, i need to know how to make a note, so i can build off of that on my own. on top of that, if you know of a good free program for beginners, that might also help, I've tried googleing how to do it, but all that comes up are people looking for programs, so if anyone could throw a little knowledge my way, i'd appreciate it.

...Why would you just go get free programs? Whether it's freeware or stolen you're obviously not going to get anywhere at that rate. I only use hard synths, but if you really want to work on the computer, I'd recommend the M-Audio Venom, where you design your patches through the computer and play them on the hardware. The patches can save to the synth and you can manipulate them to a degree without the computer.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Ve nom.html

It's a good synth, but I personally do most of my work off of the computer so I don't use it a lot. If you're strictly soft synth, than I can't be of help except i could recommend you check musiciansfriend.com or guitarcenter.com ..they have software packages. But if you want to legitimately work in music to some degree you'll have to invest some cash regardless, it's inevitable. Good luck though! :]

Oh also, the M-Audio Venom does have 8-bit wave forms you can work with, along with square wave which sounds similar if you do it right.

At 1/29/12 03:43 PM, Trampzy wrote: Oh also, the M-Audio Venom does have 8-bit wave forms you can work with, along with square wave which sounds similar if you do it right.

Yeah, or he could just use FamiTracker and get it right the first and every other time instead of spending 500 dollars on a synth where you would need to bugger around with it to get a decent result.

At 1/29/12 12:16 PM, NickPerrin wrote: This is a simple combo of PLOGUE Chipsounds (not free) and Kontakt 4 (loaded with 8-bit DPCM drum samples that I put together myself). The sample follows all realistic NES limitations, except for of course the aforementioned reverb which I would have removed but this is an old mp3 I had lying around.

Ah see this is more like it, chipsounds is an emulated instrument where the developers (one of which was trash80 iirc) went to great lengths to capture every nuance of each sound. This isn't just 3xOsc with bitcrushers!

Reverb is all good as long as it's nice and sharp and the artist isn't all like YEAH DIS IS 100% PURE CHIP BRO. I'll be the last person to rag on people making 8-bit music in DAWs 'cause I did that myself for ages, but I just can't recommend it to anybody wanting "the best [free] result".

At 1/29/12 07:10 PM, midimachine wrote:

At 1/29/12 03:43 PM, Trampzy wrote: Oh also, the M-Audio Venom does have 8-bit wave forms you can work with, along with square wave which sounds similar if you do it right.

Yeah, or he could just use FamiTracker and get it right the first and every other time instead of spending 500 dollars on a synth where you would need to bugger around with it to get a decent result.

At 1/29/12 12:16 PM, NickPerrin wrote: This is a simple combo of PLOGUE Chipsounds (not free) and Kontakt 4 (loaded with 8-bit DPCM drum samples that I put together myself). The sample follows all realistic NES limitations, except for of course the aforementioned reverb which I would have removed but this is an old mp3 I had lying around.

Ah see this is more like it, chipsounds is an emulated instrument where the developers (one of which was trash80 iirc) went to great lengths to capture every nuance of each sound. This isn't just 3xOsc with bitcrushers!

Reverb is all good as long as it's nice and sharp and the artist isn't all like YEAH DIS IS 100% PURE CHIP BRO. I'll be the last person to rag on people making 8-bit music in DAWs 'cause I did that myself for ages, but I just can't recommend it to anybody wanting "the best [free] result".

The M-Audio Venom is $300 btw. Also it does have presets factory loaded, for anyone who can't make a patch -_- . M-Audio's team sampled tons of analog synths and reconstructed the waveforms, using audio visualizers. It has 45 different oscillator waveforms, and 12 LFO waveforms to choose from. Then you can manipulate each waveform individually, and can have 3 LFO's and 3 oscillators per patch. There's a mod page in the editor that allows you change the functions of the keyboard for each patch. Along with drum samples, and you can also split the keyboard up so you can play using different patches on the same keyboard. I could keep going on, but I won't. If you were to buy only 1 synth this would have to be the one, because of how much you can do with just it.
The synth can be loaded up as a controller for other programs if they're midi compatible, if you have a specialized program. I'm not calling this synth the holy grail but it is quite amazing for the price. My main point is I'd recommend it, if it's the thing you need.

There's also kits online you can buy that let you harvest from the NES audio card, if you need to get really authentic sounds. There's also recreations of the audio cards too, that are packed into one device. However, I haven't seen those in a while.

At 1/29/12 03:42 PM, Trampzy wrote: ...Why would you just go get free programs? Whether it's freeware or stolen you're obviously not going to get anywhere at that rate.

Um... most of the best tools for making authentic 8-bit sounds are free. Famitracker (for NES), VGM Music Maker (for Sega) and MODPlug (for any sample based sequencing, like SNES) are all the best tools for the given job since they recreate the tools that the old systems used in order to create their sounds (whereas even with the best DAWs and sample it's tricky to really recreate the old sound, though it's still possible, as stated before). They are also 100% free. I seriously don't see the problem suggesting free stuff when it's the best that's out there for the given job.

At 1/29/12 07:48 PM, Gario wrote:

At 1/29/12 03:42 PM, Trampzy wrote: ...Why would you just go get free programs? Whether it's freeware or stolen you're obviously not going to get anywhere at that rate.

Um... most of the best tools for making authentic 8-bit sounds are free. Famitracker (for NES), VGM Music Maker (for Sega) and MODPlug (for any sample based sequencing, like SNES) are all the best tools for the given job since they recreate the tools that the old systems used in order to create their sounds (whereas even with the best DAWs and sample it's tricky to really recreate the old sound, though it's still possible, as stated before). They are also 100% free. I seriously don't see the problem suggesting free stuff when it's the best that's out there for the given job.

I wouldn't argue that, it's just if think about it 98% of the free music programs suck giant dick. There is the select few that are fantastic yes, but you'll probably only find the best off of recommendations which I bet someone would get here in this thread. I personally don't work with 8-bit that much so I'll admit I'm not the most well versed in it. Though I feel my point was mostly valid still.

At 1/29/12 08:00 PM, Trampzy wrote: I personally don't work with 8-bit that much so I'll admit I'm not the most well versed in it. Though I feel my point was mostly valid still.

In terms of 8-bit emulation software your point is more or less completely invalid.

At 1/29/12 08:25 PM, midimachine wrote:

At 1/29/12 08:00 PM, Trampzy wrote: I personally don't work with 8-bit that much so I'll admit I'm not the most well versed in it. Though I feel my point was mostly valid still.

In terms of 8-bit emulation software your point is more or less completely invalid.

Wow, I feel like I just interfered with a cult. I should probably leave this topic after this post, since apparently I'm an idiot. But, according to you my point is completely invalid.. which would mean that 100% of free 8-bit programs, as in every single one ever made, is amazing and can do a better job than any hardware synth INCLUDING a NES sound card. Also that would mean that hardware synths cannot emulate a 8-bit waveform and keyboards with midi cannot interact with your god like programs. All of that is true according to you, no?
If it's not than you may want to refrain from a douchey rebuttal and provide me with an intelligent one. You can't possibly be that upset because I suggested spending some money (This is me we're talking about, and I'm poorer than all of you) and insulted freeware and stolen programs. If you didn't like my answer so much, you probably should have corrected my percentages to a number to your liking, that was realistic like 70%.

Ich, sorry to step on your toes, there. I don't think that's anyone's intent.

All we're saying is that this is one case where the free options are also the best options (better than the alternatives, in this case), given someone who wants to write 8-bit music. There might be worse programs out there, but we didn't suggest those.

Famitracker really is the best there is in this degree, and no DAW with the right synths will be better at 8-bit music because there's more to making that music than making the synths sound right - the stringent rules and structures are just as important. It's possible, but it's actually more difficult to achieve the desired sound in a regular DAW than it is in Famitracker. That's all we're saying.

At 1/29/12 11:11 PM, Trampzy wrote: Wow, I feel like I just interfered with a cult. I should probably leave this topic after this post, since apparently I'm an idiot. But, according to you my point is completely invalid.. which would mean that 100% of free 8-bit programs, as in every single one ever made, is amazing and can do a better job than any hardware synth INCLUDING a NES sound card. Also that would mean that hardware synths cannot emulate a 8-bit waveform and keyboards with midi cannot interact with your god like programs. All of that is true according to you, no?
If it's not than you may want to refrain from a douchey rebuttal and provide me with an intelligent one. You can't possibly be that upset because I suggested spending some money (This is me we're talking about, and I'm poorer than all of you) and insulted freeware and stolen programs. If you didn't like my answer so much, you probably should have corrected my percentages to a number to your liking, that was realistic like 70%.

I thought your point was that most free software is bad, and I simply said that your point was invalid. Who said anything about me being upset? You seem to be the one who's resorting to personal attacks and hyperbole.

At 1/29/12 11:32 PM, Gario wrote: Ich, sorry to step on your toes, there. I don't think that's anyone's intent.

All we're saying is that this is one case where the free options are also the best options (better than the alternatives, in this case), given someone who wants to write 8-bit music. There might be worse programs out there, but we didn't suggest those.

Famitracker really is the best there is in this degree, and no DAW with the right synths will be better at 8-bit music because there's more to making that music than making the synths sound right - the stringent rules and structures are just as important. It's possible, but it's actually more difficult to achieve the desired sound in a regular DAW than it is in Famitracker. That's all we're saying.

Well I got that point now, and I changed my feelings towards the situation a bit already but midimachine claims my point is 100% wrong which would have been flabbergasting if it was. I already said that if based off recommendations you could find great programs, it's just a google search would've given shit programs, I've done it before. Honestly how could anything be better than an actual NES sound card? I thought I was talking to people from a parallel universe, for a moment. You've at least said intelligent stuff, seriously midimachine's been coming across as an idiot. Originally all I did was suggest a feasible way to make 8-bit music and midimachine seems to think I'm talking out my ass (sorry to be presumptuous). ...Just did you guys fully read my posts or breeze through them? If you breezed though them, based on the way I talk, that would've made the situation really confusing.
But I'll say it again. I am not well-versed in soft synth or 8-bit synthesis information. I do all hard synths with exception of the Venom, which is 50/50.

My main point of concern now, is that I'm coming across as a bitch when all I want to do is give myself a reasonable defense. I even admitted I wasn't completely right. But I read through the conversation again and our points aren't entirely different, I just brought hardware into the picture, and suggested using a few coin.

At 1/29/12 11:47 PM, midimachine wrote: I thought your point was that most free software is bad, and I simply said that your point was invalid. Who said anything about me being upset? You seem to be the one who's resorting to personal attacks and hyperbole.

I had multiple points, all you did was respond to my opening line and then provide an answer that couldn't have been true. Your use of italics also emphasized an attitude, and point I thought was wrong.

There is literally no 8-bit/chip emulating standalone sequencer that is actually bad, and that's not an exaggeration. There are a few dodgy VSTi's but there's pretty good ones too! It's not worth taking your suggestion and going out and buying a Venom (they are $500 in stores over here, btw) just to make fake 8-bit music with it, when literally any free standalone program and most free 8-bit VSTs would get the job done just fine.

If you're willing to admit that you're not well versed in this stuff, why are you getting defensive when your suggestion is shot down?

Better idea, if you want to spend $300 you should buy a gameboy, some useful mods such as "prosound" and a backlight from a reputable vendor, a flashable game boy cartridge and LSDJ (tracker interface) or a Nanoloop cartridge (graphical interface). Then you can buy it all again + a link cable for extra polyphony and still have about $100 left over.

At 1/30/12 12:45 AM, midimachine wrote: There is literally no 8-bit/chip emulating standalone sequencer that is actually bad, and that's not an exaggeration. There are a few dodgy VSTi's but there's pretty good ones too! It's not worth taking your suggestion and going out and buying a Venom (they are $500 in stores over here, btw) just to make fake 8-bit music with it, when literally any free standalone program and most free 8-bit VSTs would get the job done just fine.

If you're willing to admit that you're not well versed in this stuff, why are you getting defensive when your suggestion is shot down?

Well you said I was incorrect originally, I don't care if people decline the advice, that's nothing to get upset about. Being a super music nerd, I get a little caught up on stuff like that :\. Also I didn't know there were programs of that scale, I thought most of the soft synth stuff was pretty bad. There's defiantly gotta be some bad programs out there though, right? Like they were just programmed bad or something, they can't all be good... But whatevs.

Ok sorry if I sounded like an M-Audio sales man, btw I had no clue they went up in price! I'm honestly really surprised! I got mine for $300 new when they came out! For that price it was soo worth it I wouldn't have bought it if it was 500 at the time. But the 8-bit isn't a fake emulation. Also I was just meaning to suggest a synth that could help for more than 8-bit incase the OP wanted some variation. Speaking of which, has he even checked this thread since he posted (O~o)???

At 1/30/12 12:54 AM, midimachine wrote: Better idea, if you want to spend $300 you should buy a gameboy, some useful mods such as "prosound" and a backlight from a reputable vendor, a flashable game boy cartridge and LSDJ (tracker interface) or a Nanoloop cartridge (graphical interface). Then you can buy it all again + a link cable for extra polyphony and still have about $100 left over.

I bet you could do it even cheaper then that (eBay). But that's honestly pretty cool sounding.

At 1/30/12 01:02 AM, Trampzy wrote: I bet you could do it even cheaper then that (eBay). But that's honestly pretty cool sounding.

Well yeah, dudes be selling their used modded gameboys a whole lot and the prosound isn't a huge deal until you start playing live. chipmusic.org forums have a trading post which is sometimes worth a look-in, too!

At 1/29/12 11:32 PM, Gario wrote: Famitracker really is the best there is in this degree, and no DAW with the right synths will be better at 8-bit music because there's more to making that music than making the synths sound right - the stringent rules and structures are just as important. It's possible, but it's actually more difficult to achieve the desired sound in a regular DAW than it is in Famitracker. That's all we're saying.

Now I've always been interested in trying Famitracker, but tracker sequencing scares me off a little bit. Is it possible to import a musical data format (such as MIDI) into Famitracker and then touch it up?

the best advice is to get a tracker, and actually draw a waveform in it - or download some keygen songs and stick them in a tracker and use their sounds.

or you can takje any song and take a tiny slice of it and use that - remember all sound is made from sine waves (wavey), square waves (blocky), sawtooth waves (pointy) and noise (random).

most 8-bit songs were made using 4 oscillators with one of these on each, and modification of each.

At 1/30/12 09:44 AM, NickPerrin wrote: Now I've always been interested in trying Famitracker, but tracker sequencing scares me off a little bit. Is it possible to import a musical data format (such as MIDI) into Famitracker and then touch it up?

Yes, but you need to make your .mid file very specifically; no odd note lengths, only a few channels, no timesig changes etc.

milkytracker imo is better.. easier to use.

Probably! FT gets the authentic 2a03 (and expansions) sound right out of the box and can export to NSF format which I don't think Milky can do. Milky is a really good way to get familiar with tracking interfaces though and you can still use it for MOD and XM files if you wanna go down that road. I recommend both, honestly.

Woah, errbody in here gettin' MAD!

Look, at the end of the day the quality of the work depends on the engineer. Including you. To say that hardware or software is better is a silly pointless arguement. Comparing a Behringer Compander to a Waves LA2A emu is unfair, as is comparing a Neev EQ to Digidesign's 6 band Parametric.

It's all in the design. Feel free to discern yourself what you want to use, but to assume that one peice of equipment is objectively better for all purposes than another is, frankly, just betraying your own ignorance. And to begin getting angry over loose terms like "True 8 bit" or whatever is even worse again. Sure you might need an 808 for that "true" Detroit Techno sound, unless you actually don't listen to D. T the way others do or other Detroit arists and asuch you've a different outlook. Or you just see another peice of equipment as better at performing the same tasks.

If you're unhappy with your "lo-fi" equipment I suggest getting an Arduino or Max MSP and learning to build your instruments yourself. A NES doesn't have anything special to it. It's a peice of digital equipment which can be completely emulated by a good engineer with a good understanding of both his objectives and his tools. Likewise with any other peice of digital kit and, if you've the time, analouge stuff too. Only hard part there is programming in the "happy accidents".

At 1/30/12 07:38 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: Woah, errbody in here gettin' MAD!
also words and stuff.

Nobody's mad! Especially not about whether or not something is "true 8-bit". Half the stuff I've suggested myself isn't true 8-bit; did you just briefly skim through what was written and assume it was a heated argument about keepin' it real? :P

The only reason that I didn't like that dude's suggestion was that it was far too costly for what the OP needed. The only reason I suggested buying all that shit was to say "look if you really need to spend that much money you should spend it on this instead of that". Again, in relation to the OP your suggestion of learning Arduino and/or Max MSP, while a good suggestion, is just too advanced and time-consuming for this dude and about 99% of people using this forum (self included!).

At 1/30/12 07:54 PM, midimachine wrote:

Nobody's mad! Especially not about whether or not something is "true 8-bit". Half the stuff I've suggested myself isn't true 8-bit; did you just briefly skim through what was written and assume it was a heated argument about keepin' it real? :P

There's alot of defensiveness going. Everybody says they're not mad when told that they mad!

Whenever people compare and criticise setups, tensions always flare. The guy with the hardware might enjoy his setup but if it's out of cost range, everyone should just leave it at that.

Arduino might be a bit much. But Max? It's actually pretty o.k! We're spoilt with our programming stuff and all it's GUI's and its abstraction layers. My brother was doing VHDL last term, nasty stuff. Personaly if I wanted particular 8 bit synth sounds and I didn't like VST's, I'd find CSound or Max a pretty quick way of doing the same thing. Since they can rewire into a normal DAW and speak MIDI you actually gain the ability to shoot fire out of your hands and jump buildings and stuff. Well, not really, but you're fairly unlimited on the audio side of things!

I'm having a hard time finding a download for FamiTracker since the main site is currently fucked. Can anyone help a brotha out?

Have you tried http://famitracker.shoodot.net?

At 1/30/12 11:59 PM, midimachine wrote: Have you tried http://famitracker.shoodot.net?

Strange, when I went to the site from a Google search, it gave me a completely different site than this one. I got it now, thanks!

At 1/30/12 08:36 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: There's alot of defensiveness going. Everybody says they're not mad when told that they mad!

Whenever people compare and criticise setups, tensions always flare. The guy with the hardware might enjoy his setup but if it's out of cost range, everyone should just leave it at that.

Haha, it doesn't sound like you actually read our conversation. I didn't even realize you were talking about me n midimachine right away until he answered. midi covered it for you though.

midimachine ya i checked out chipmusic like you said, it looks pretty sweet. I'm gonna thoroughly check it out later tonight, thanks for the link!

At 1/30/12 09:44 AM, NickPerrin wrote: Now I've always been interested in trying Famitracker, but tracker sequencing scares me off a little bit. Is it possible to import a musical data format (such as MIDI) into Famitracker and then touch it up?

You know, you can always convert MOD/XM/FTM/NSF to MIDI, and the other way around...

Oh wait, FamiTracker can port MIDI! So lesser work for u.

To teh 'true' 8-bit war

What's with the fight over 8 bit musical tools?