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At 1/8/12 03:10 PM, Xyphon202 wrote: [repetition that can be answered by previous posts]

Please read my posts. Your argument has been thoroughly responded to a couple times.

(I recommend quoting one of the later ones, as you seem to have only read the first).

People could be suffering in hell for millions of years, and then after judgment day they would be suffering for eternity.

The suffering in hell is not eternal, nor will it last for millions of years.

So we've cleared up that for God to be omniscient he must have known that eventually he would be betrayed and Lucifer would be banished to hell and all sorts of horrid things would happen from following that. It's also been suggested that this doesn't make God directly responsible for any of it.

But why would God bother making an imperfect universe in the first place? If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he/she/it would know the exact route to go about to create a universe with no flaws, but God chose to make a vastly imperfect universe regardless.

It's probably because it wouldn't have been an interesting story without all the plot twists, and without hell there would be less incentive for people to join said religion, because the fear of roasting for eternity would be absent.

God is a troll.

EmmaVolt

The devil is not the author of lies. What are you talking about? The devil never did anything. The devil only answered the dark wishes of the human being.

If anything, the devil was the author of details. The devil asked questions, but never did he force his 'evil' powers. No, the human being was selfish, weak-minded and gave him his power that he used to answer the human's wishes.

The human was evil, not the devil.

Is that so hard to comprehend?

At 1/8/12 03:22 PM, Xyphon202 wrote:

At 1/8/12 03:16 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: stuff

You don't know when judgment day will happen, so you have no idea how long it will last.

I don't play a role in deciding when creation is over.

Also, I thought that people who don't pass on judgment day suffer eternal damnation? Guess I need to re-read the bible.

Yes, you do. The Bible never says or even implies eternal damnation. That is a media/traditional fabrication.

I do not care that much on the subject of religion as it is pretty much 100% subjective,

Text is not subjective, and is what I am basing my arguments on. When I am offering a personal opinion, however, I try to make it clear that I am doing so!

so I am not going to bother to read all of the posts in the thread

Well, that's fine. But, in the future, please do so that we won't be arguing over something that may have already been solved or addressed.

At 1/8/12 03:36 PM, Insanctuary wrote: EmmaVolt
The devil is not the author of lies.

John 8:44 (NIV):

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I did substitute "Author" from "Father" - perhaps from another translation.

At 1/8/12 03:24 PM, JaY11 wrote: So we've cleared up that for God to be omniscient he must have known that eventually he would be betrayed and Lucifer would be banished to hell and all sorts of horrid things would happen from following that. It's also been suggested that this doesn't make God directly responsible for any of it.

But why would God bother making an imperfect universe in the first place? If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he/she/it would know the exact route to go about to create a universe with no flaws, but God chose to make a vastly imperfect universe regardless.

It's probably because it wouldn't have been an interesting story without all the plot twists, and without hell there would be less incentive for people to join said religion, because the fear of roasting for eternity would be absent.

Because God doesn't want people that are all like robots and are forced to follow him. He wants you to make a conscious choice to choose him over Satan. That's why the world is imperfect - free will.

That's what the religious side would say anyway.

At 1/8/12 03:40 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:

At 1/8/12 03:36 PM, Insanctuary wrote: EmmaVolt
The devil is not the author of lies.

John 8:44 (NIV):

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I did substitute "Author" from "Father" - perhaps from another translation.

Oh really? That's why God lied about the forbidden fruit, right?

Besides, I want to know what you know. Not what you know from a book that you only think you know.

Ohhh religion!

First off, how do you know God created Satan? If he did, give proof, please. :)

Secondly, everything happens for a reason, or so they say. I'm sure if Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned the world would be different. And temptations are necessarily a bad thing, but in most cases it is. But again, I go back to "Everything happens for a reason" when I talk about this.

Thirdly, now I'm Catholic, but sometimes I actually question if Satan is truly real. Think about it, we all have control of our minds and actions, we decide whether or not we should do something. The only thing that could sway that is mental disabilities. Even if Satan is real, does he really have the power to affect our minds and our body? Think about such things, too.

Finally, topics like this just cause issues. I would try and stay away from things like this. Although you are what looks like a veteran to this site due to your amount of posts. I will respect that.

Thanks for reading!

At 1/8/12 03:41 PM, popsicle-of-doom wrote:

That's what the religious side would say anyway.

It's a really bias, unbalanced free will though. You have one side that promises eternal glory and happiness, and one that promises suffering. That, and God already knows how your life will end up.

God could have created a world in which we still have free will, but all events that have outcomes that he would consider bad wouldn't happen because, being an omnipotent being, he should have the power to choose the universe in which every single event is perfectly laid out to have no negative outcomes. No Satan, no hell, everybody is a part of the good ending.

But like I said that wouldn't have made an interesting, convincing story, and it certainly wouldn't scare anybody.

He was bored and needed someone to fight against.

At 1/8/12 03:57 PM, Xyphon202 wrote:

At 1/8/12 03:52 PM, SarcasticDude wrote: Ohhh religion!

First off, how do you know God created Satan? If he did, give proof, please. :)

God created EVERYTHING.

Some Catholic you are.

So God created nothing to?

Ol' the paradoxes.

So let me get this straight.

God created EVERYTHING?

Every single tiny detail of life?

Every single form?

Every single element; attribute?

BUT couldn't stop the temptations of Adam and Eve before it was too late?

Pfhahahahahaha! They must've been like magical ninjas.

At 1/8/12 04:06 PM, Xyphon202 wrote:

At 1/8/12 04:05 PM, Insanctuary wrote: BUT couldn't stop the temptations of Adam and Eve before it was too late?

Pfhahahahahaha! They must've been like magical ninjas.

He could, but he just didn't feel like it.

So now God is lazy?

At 1/8/12 04:06 PM, Xyphon202 wrote:

At 1/8/12 04:05 PM, Insanctuary wrote: BUT couldn't stop the temptations of Adam and Eve before it was too late?

Pfhahahahahaha! They must've been like magical ninjas.

He could, but he just didn't feel like it.

He didn't feel like it my ass. He wouldn't just let the first few people he made wander off and do something stupid/disobey him, correct? He wouldn't just say "I don't feel like helping these people, so I'll just let them do what they want." Am I right?

Secondly, I believe Satan is a different life form, that God wouldn't create such an evil person. I believe Satan somehow created himself. The fact God would create such and evil creature is highly doubted by me.

Lastly, do not say "Some Catholic you are." Because I think I'm a great Catholic. Do NOT judge me by a post. I have a feeling you will not be one of my favourite members. I would think wisely before posting next time.

Anyone who is taking this thread seriously, just Ignore the lollipops.

At 1/8/12 04:22 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Anyone who is taking this thread seriously, just Ignore the lollipops.

I'm sorry. Did you just speak for the mass, with a vague assertion as if our NG levels deem us anymore important?

Did it ever occur to you that we are all invidiuals with individual ideas?

I am taking this thread seriously; not my fault you are using a book to argue your points.

lol @ people thinking they can explain mysteries.

At 1/8/12 04:22 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Anyone who is taking this thread seriously, just Ignore the lollipops.

Ignore us why? Just because we are a lower level than you doesn't mean we should be ignored. We are all human. None of us should be ignored without a good reason.

At 1/8/12 04:27 PM, jpbear wrote: lol @ people thinking they can explain mysteries.

It's more like:

lol @ people who explain what they can't explain by not explaining what they can't explain. The only thing they have going for them is faith [ignorance].

Don't get me wrong, faith is not all that ignorant if you apply faith without any doubt in your word. It's only ludicrous to apply faith if that is all that holds together the being.

At 1/8/12 04:31 PM, SarcasticDude wrote:

At 1/8/12 04:22 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Anyone who is taking this thread seriously, just Ignore the lollipops.

Ignore us why? Just because we are a lower level than you

No, because the majority of the points are completely ignoring context. I could care less about the level, it just so happened that the ignorant comments were coming from those with lollipops.

At 1/8/12 04:43 PM, Xyphon202 wrote:

At 1/8/12 04:22 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Anyone who is taking this thread seriously, just Ignore the lollipops.

You don't agree with me, therefore, you're wrong! Yep, that's the way it is.

God created evil. He knew it would be evil. I don't agree with his actions. Oh no, I guess I'm making a joke of this whole thread.

We are the lollipop army, it seems. Lol. Inconspiciously shutting people down conspicuously.

Could make a song out of it, too.. I don't know.. I'll throw in a few words..

____ ____ Lollipop?

___ arguments drop?

___ _ _____ stop?

_____ ___ top?

Yea.. I'm an amateur. :/ Get @ me.

At 1/8/12 04:43 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:

At 1/8/12 04:31 PM, SarcasticDude wrote:

At 1/8/12 04:22 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Anyone who is taking this thread seriously, just Ignore the lollipops.

Ignore us why? Just because we are a lower level than you

No, because the majority of the points are completely ignoring context. I could care less about the level, it just so happened that the ignorant comments were coming from those with lollipops.

What context?

You regurgitating 'facts' from an old book that was renewed; edited like a million times? Is that your 'context'?

*claps*

At 1/8/12 04:49 PM, Insanctuary wrote: You regurgitating 'facts' from an old book that was renewed; edited like a million times? Is that your 'context'?

Seeing as you are posting in a thread with the Biblical truth being given as a premise (hypothetical or not), it would seem obvious that one would use contextual references from the Bible to defend the argument. Asinine pseudo-philosophical theories presented from your alternate account won't help you here.

At 1/8/12 04:56 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:

At 1/8/12 04:49 PM, Insanctuary wrote: You regurgitating 'facts' from an old book that was renewed; edited like a million times? Is that your 'context'?

Seeing as you are posting in a thread with the Biblical truth being given as a premise (hypothetical or not), it would seem obvious that one would use contextual references from the Bible to defend the argument. Asinine pseudo-philosophical theories presented from your alternate account won't help you here.

Yes, but it seems to me that you solely rely on a book to defend your argument? Do you ever actually form your own argument? Or actually try to expand on it, or is the Bible your wingman? Or, is simply because you can't expand on a book that is full of plot holes; contradictions; etc?

No, really. Be honest with me. I'm being honest with you. Can you back up your claims about my philosophy? I mean really.. We both know that both of our words hold no real solid form in all actuality..

Yet, it seems to me that my philosophy spawns from me and my determination to find the real truth in life. While you obey a book that you deem greater than your own mind and body; while letting it speak for you; it seems a bit.. fruitless, don't you think?

Because bronze age barbarian nomads couldn't think things through, that's why.

I'm pretty sure it's never said that Satan was the one to tempt Adam and Eve, and there's the whole free will issue.

At 1/8/12 05:54 PM, Natick wrote: Well, would you look at these flaming new guys!

New guys. New guys everywhere.

At 1/8/12 02:09 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:

At 1/8/12 01:44 PM, Scarface wrote: So my other question is, does Satan have any effect on Earth?

Satan and his followers are able to utilize things such as disease, emotional/psychological pain, and animals to cause suffering. However, he is unable to harm a follower of Christ unless allowed (God never allows anything that we cannot handle and that won't make us stronger).

Forgive me for saying this, but that last part just sounds like bullshit. If something good happens, it's God's work, if something bad happens, it's just making us stronger. Why do God and Satan (or his followers) need to have ANY influence on Earth at all? Shouldn't it be just the people on Earth and no one else?

Can he tempt people, can he speak to them or convince them to do things?

Yes and no. Satan and his followers are able to make things appear attractive that can be extremely detrimental to your physical, emotional, and mental health. However, he is unable to completely control one's will. One must make a conscious decision whether or not to give into the temptation - which will always result negatively despite positive (temporary) emotions.

Why doesn't God just revoke that power?

Can he deceive them, or make the Earth seem older than it is (referring to Genesis and the Earth actually being 4.6 billion years old). Could Satan make the earth seem 4.6 billion years old if it wasn't?

Now, with regard to the age of the Earth, I believe you are hinting that believers are deceived into believing the world is 6,000 years old (or, perhaps that non-believers are deceived). Here is what I know:

I was referring to the world being 6,000 years old (I personally don't believe that) and Satan making it appear to scientists as 4.6 billion years old.

The agreed age of the Earth (based on time of creation to present) by Biblical scholars is approximately six thousand to fourteen thousand years old. Because this conclusion is founded on a literal interpretation of Genesis (the only logical method of interpretation based on context of the verses), I strongly support that the Earth is 6-14,000 years old.

However, this age, I believe, is not deductive of the "apparent age" of the Earth. If you will notice, all throughout the creation section of Genesis, all created things are so in "adult form". Birds, trees, land animals, humans, etc are all created in their prime - not as children. Thus, it is logical to assume similar for the inanimate. The Earth was probably created in "adult" form (4.6 Billion y.o) despite having only existed for a second. Does this make sense?

It makes sense, because I suppose God could just create something as being 4.6 billion years old if he wanted, but why would he? What's the point?

Also, DINOSAURS! They were never mentioned in the bible, and it's been proven that man and dinosaurs never existed on Earth at the same time. What explaination is there for that?

I can defend this argument by stating that a universe created in "baby/youth" form would not have been able to support the Earth as it would have plausibly been extremely hostile to life.

I don't quite understand what you meant there, could you explain that part in greater detail? Are you saying the universe and Earth were created at the same time? Because that's not quite it. Scientists theorize that the universe is 10-15 billion years old, so it would have had time to 'mature' before the Earth was created, 4.6 billion years ago. Unless that's not what you meant, and if not, please explain.

Why doesn't God revoke that power?

God allows some truths to be hidden away so that His glory may be seen by those who find the truth, and spread it to others.

Why would he want to hide the truth? Why wouldn't he want his glory to be apparent to everyone?

I don't know. This is one of the reasons as to why I became an atheist. The god of the Bible is a hateful, careless, and childish being with supposed omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience...

...and he didn't even try to stop evil from flourishing. I imagine that God's nature of omnibenevolence(Being purely good) and omnipotence would compel him to destroy evil everywhere. It would've been infinitely easy to destroy the supposed source of evil in the universe, Satan. Somehow, this isn't the case with the Christian god.

I guess I should just leave this familiar quote here:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?--Epicurus