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At 1/9/12 02:41 PM, Insanctuary wrote:

1. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I am digusted by it. Alot of people do disgusting stuff.

never said ypu specifically were.

I'm saying the overall nature, I suspect there is something off about them. It just seems like it's not 'real'. I get the same feeling when my mom brought me to a church. The lights dimmed around me, and everything seemed so fabricated. The smiles weren't real, and it's like.. It was zombified happiness.

About who? I'm not sure i get what you are getting at.

2. I'm just trying to make it clear that not everything is what it appears to be, esp. when you can see what I see. A world that is like puzzle pieces.

Sometimes the world is not what it appears to be, sometimes it is. There are ways to know which is which.

At 1/9/12 03:49 PM, Insanctuary wrote: 1. When I say 'them' I'm only generally speaking. I'm not segregating you from the 'norm'. I'm just stating the general idea. I'm talking about homosexuals, I don't want to keep typing 'homosexual' to prove a point. So, I am saying 'them', and trying to have you not take that the wrong way.

OK, but I don't understand why you perceive homosexuals as fundamentally different, which is what I mean by "us" and "them".

2. Humans are a very interesting subject for me. How our minds are a state of balance and contradiction; a paradox. How we are able to see without seeing. You will be amazed how much we can delude ourselves. That is why I'm speaking my mind, because I am very aware that we are our own labyrinths.. and the very fact not many people see that life isn't about making the best out of it.. It's about making the best out of ourselves.

Well stated, but I would question the idea that the two are mutually exclusive. I take no issue with honesty, and respect it greatly.

I'm only suggesting that you look deep in your bisexuality and ask yourself ''Why''?

You don't think I have? You don't think every LGBT person has? It is because we are, just like how you are attracted to girls only and not boys. It may well be part of our schema and nexus of associations, but that applies equally to heterosexuality (a person meditating feels no sexuality). Why don't you ask yourself why you are straight and not gay/ bisexual? If the answer you first see is that it is unnatural, I would point out to you that in insentient animals (which do not have schema, nor the same intricate nexus of associations that humans do) such as bats, geese and sheep homosexuality is frequently recorded. I would make the conjecture that sexuality is not fixed, nor absolute (it does after all rely on that tricky beast perception).

It even intrigues me more, because I'm under the impression that humans consist of both male and female characteristics. Even at a young age, if a child is left uncorrupted, you can't even tell if it's a boy a girl. I just think that our mind is getting confused with our reality. I think you are misinterpreting your feelings towards the same sex. That is all I'm trying to say.

I would argue that the idea that we naturally all feel a certain way towards a certain sex is both un- empirical and based on the assumption that we all function the same as one another, with no natural psychological differences. If it is simply a question of misperception, why is it that males with older brothers by the same mother (and thus less exposure to testosterone in the womb, as their mother is better at regulating hormone levels while pregnant with a son) have a significantly increased tendency to be either gay or bisexual?

3. I admire your attributes, I do. I'm just telling you that there are things that seem off. It just seems like there is much more than just being 'homosexual'. Not in a viable way either. It's just what I see, and for some reason I am able to see things that many cannot. Just bare with me, mate.

Not to get ad-hominid, but this paragraph does sound a tad God-complex-y. You ascertain that perception is imperfect, and yet you say that because you perceive homosexuality to be shady it is probably something of a neurosis, and you make this leap of faith from the idea that you are able to perceive things others can't. By this reasoning you make yourself exempt from your own law (that perception is flawed) by virtue of you realising this. I would suggest keeping a more open mind: the mind is an incredibly intricate thing and by the time one has stripped away all the flaws in their perception they would no longer perceive themselves with an arbitrary identity.

Or as the Diamond Sutra puts it: "if a Bodhisattva (an enlightened person who perceives the world purely as it is) has an appearance of self, others, living beings or a life, he can not be a Bodhisattva"

4. It's not neccessarily malformed. It's just not as whole as it can be. Like missing puzzle pieces. Like it's an unfinished painting.. and has yet to be finished to see if the picture is a well painted picture, or a picture that has errors.

Hmmmm... I see what you mean. I would argue though, that the same could surely be said for anything but the most functional sexuality if you mean that it distracts from a person's self realisation. If you count love as something that makes people whole, and sex as functional to this love, what about loving gay couples like George Takei and Brad Altman who lay in bed eating turkey sandwiches together, and even in serene old age are married still? Surely this as loving a couple (and the millions of similar couples who do not have the virtue of being famous) as any straight one? I would ask you to contemplate the notion that it is your perception of homosexuality that taints it as perverted, as you are after all assumably not homosexual and for you such thoughts would therefore be perverse, and not homosexuality itself.

5. Mhmm.. I believe in subtly peace and love. If that makes sense?

What, like appreciation and understanding through the sharing of reason and conjecture?

At 1/9/12 04:16 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:

At 1/9/12 02:41 PM, Insanctuary wrote:

1. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I am digusted by it. Alot of people do disgusting stuff.

never said ypu specifically were.

I'm saying the overall nature, I suspect there is something off about them. It just seems like it's not 'real'. I get the same feeling when my mom brought me to a church. The lights dimmed around me, and everything seemed so fabricated. The smiles weren't real, and it's like.. It was zombified happiness.

About who? I'm not sure i get what you are getting at.

2. I'm just trying to make it clear that not everything is what it appears to be, esp. when you can see what I see. A world that is like puzzle pieces.

Sometimes the world is not what it appears to be, sometimes it is. There are ways to know which is which.

1. Just putting it out there.

2. I'm trying to make a point that just because your physical eyes say 'yes' doesn't mean your mind isn't saying 'no'.

3. It depends on your current state of awareness. Perhaps you should try to solve my riddle you can find in the general forums. That will surely test your level of awareness.

At 1/9/12 04:37 PM, Insanctuary wrote: 2. I'm trying to make a point that just because your physical eyes say 'yes' doesn't mean your mind isn't saying 'no'.

Hate to double post, but isn't it equally possible that because your mind says no to homosexuality you project that onto others whose minds do not say no, assuming they function the same way as you? I say this as someone who meditates regularly and practices mindfulness, and is still bisexual. Surely its kinda illogical (and a little chauvinistic) to assume that the minds of others must be more flawed than yours because they work differently?

At 1/9/12 04:47 PM, AKACCMIOF wrote:

At 1/9/12 04:37 PM, Insanctuary wrote: 2. I'm trying to make a point that just because your physical eyes say 'yes' doesn't mean your mind isn't saying 'no'.

Hate to double post, but isn't it equally possible that because your mind says no to homosexuality you project that onto others whose minds do not say no, assuming they function the same way as you? I say this as someone who meditates regularly and practices mindfulness, and is still bisexual. Surely its kinda illogical (and a little chauvinistic) to assume that the minds of others must be more flawed than yours because they work differently?

I do not deem flaws for the difference one lives by.

I deem what I say in my word of stance through missing pieces of the puzzle. Humans are like puzzle pieces to me, and certain things do not place well at all.

It just seems that homosexuals are 'too' free. It seems that they love more than they should without a leash, or self-discipline. It just seems as if the entire thing stems from a subconscious alterior motive. It's like, they don't think critically. They just want to live free, and untouched by reality's morals; ethics, etc. It seems to me that there is no difference between other things teenagers do with that very concept. There is certainly a wide level of rebellious nature between reality and people..

They show this through their religions.. tatoos.. piercings.. fetishes.. their styles.. etc. Everyone wasn't their own seat. Yet, at the same time.. they abandon their own.

It's not about being true to ourselves if you cannot make very much sense out of what you stand to be.

Everyone wants their own seat*

At 1/9/12 05:15 PM, Insanctuary wrote::

I do not deem flaws for the difference one lives by.

I deem what I say in my word of stance through missing pieces of the puzzle. Humans are like puzzle pieces to me, and certain things do not place well at all.

It just seems that homosexuals are 'too' free. It seems that they love more than they should without a leash, or self-discipline. It just seems as if the entire thing stems from a subconscious alterior motive. It's like, they don't think critically. They just want to live free, and untouched by reality's morals; ethics, etc. It seems to me that there is no difference between other things teenagers do with that very concept. There is certainly a wide level of rebellious nature between reality and people..

They show this through their religions.. tatoos.. piercings.. fetishes.. their styles.. etc. Everyone wasn't their own seat. Yet, at the same time.. they abandon their own.

It's not about being true to ourselves if you cannot make very much sense out of what you stand to be.

Why do you assume this is more prevalent amongst homosexuals? What about me? I meditate. I am untatooed, unpierced and have been in a committed relationship for over a year and a half. I'm studying to become a psychotherapist because its how I feel I'm best suited to help the world. What's rebellious/ immoral about me? I could name you more people like that who are straight than gay that I know.

Again, I would question whether it is that you perceive homosexuality in an inherently biased manner. Look at empirical evidence. Rid yourself of pre- conceived notions. It is the only way to see the world as it is. Come on, as someone who talks about how flawed everyone else's perception is, you should get that you aren't immune to that phenomenon yourself.

At 1/9/12 05:22 PM, AKACCMIOF wrote: At 1/9/12 05:15 PM, Insanctuary wrote::

I do not deem flaws for the difference one lives by.

I deem what I say in my word of stance through missing pieces of the puzzle. Humans are like puzzle pieces to me, and certain things do not place well at all.

It just seems that homosexuals are 'too' free. It seems that they love more than they should without a leash, or self-discipline. It just seems as if the entire thing stems from a subconscious alterior motive. It's like, they don't think critically. They just want to live free, and untouched by reality's morals; ethics, etc. It seems to me that there is no difference between other things teenagers do with that very concept. There is certainly a wide level of rebellious nature between reality and people..

They show this through their religions.. tatoos.. piercings.. fetishes.. their styles.. etc. Everyone wasn't their own seat. Yet, at the same time.. they abandon their own.

It's not about being true to ourselves if you cannot make very much sense out of what you stand to be.

Why do you assume this is more prevalent amongst homosexuals? What about me? I meditate. I am untatooed, unpierced and have been in a committed relationship for over a year and a half. I'm studying to become a psychotherapist because its how I feel I'm best suited to help the world. What's rebellious/ immoral about me? I could name you more people like that who are straight than gay that I know.

Again, I would question whether it is that you perceive homosexuality in an inherently biased manner. Look at empirical evidence. Rid yourself of pre- conceived notions. It is the only way to see the world as it is. Come on, as someone who talks about how flawed everyone else's perception is, you should get that you aren't immune to that phenomenon yourself.

The general idea is that it's distorting reality. The mind has alot of ideas that defy reality's logic. I suspect that the affection you have towards your same sex is derived from a completely irrelevant element. This world is full of examples where man let's their mind control their reality without your consent.

I have my flaws, but this is not one of them.. It does not add up. It feels too artificial. As if, the roots of it are coming from the wrong derivation.

I mean.. Everyone man has his ups and down. Just because you do all of these cleansing things does not make the very attribute I question any more viable. They are seperate actions.

At 1/9/12 05:15 PM, Insanctuary wrote: They just want to live free, and untouched by reality's morals; ethics, etc.

Reality doesn't have morals or ethics, people do. And they're subjective.

There is certainly a wide level of rebellious nature between reality and people..

In reality land, some people are attracted to the same sex. How is being a homosexual a rebellion against reality?

At 1/9/12 11:28 PM, bgraybr wrote:

At 1/9/12 05:15 PM, Insanctuary wrote: They just want to live free, and untouched by reality's morals; ethics, etc.

Reality doesn't have morals or ethics, people do. And they're subjective.

There is certainly a wide level of rebellious nature between reality and people..

In reality land, some people are attracted to the same sex. How is being a homosexual a rebellion against reality?

Alot of people say the world and mean the general people.

I was doing the same thing, but instead of 'world' I used 'reality'.

Anyways. It just seems to me that the arguments are lacking substance. That it seems to be that they just do it just because. They see how it's love, and others things.. but I just do not buy it. It seems more like a high-ride on sugar than a genuine relationship.

It seems artificial.

At 1/9/12 11:32 PM, Insanctuary wrote: Anyways. It just seems to me that the arguments are lacking substance. That it seems to be that they just do it just because. They see how it's love, and others things.. but I just do not buy it. It seems more like a high-ride on sugar than a genuine relationship.

It seems artificial.

Insanctuary: I don't believe chickens exist. They just don't seem real.

AKACCMIOF and Bgraybr show him a chicken.

Insanctuary: I don't buy it. Something still seems fake about chickens.

At 1/7/12 05:17 PM, lapis wrote: I think that in the deserts of the Middle East, homophobia came first and then simply found its way into religion (Judaism and Islam). However, homosexuality was pretty much accepted in classical southern Europe, but then Christianity happened and homophobia came along with it. I really have a hard time explaining why there was such a trend shift in attitudes towards homosexuality in ancient Greece and Italy if we were to accept that the 'Abrahamic scriptures' have nothing to do with it. What I think happened was that Semitic desert views on not just homosexuality, but sexuality in general were exported through religion from the Negev and Arabian deserts to wider Europe (and other regions as well). Hence homophobia. Then again, homosexuality is not at all accepted in China or the pagan parts of Africa either, so it might appeal to more basic human instincts or cultural values.

Not quite so, it was quite common in the Ottoman empire and before that, maybe not in the same light as the Greeks or Romans, but it was somewhat understood.

Site

At 1/9/12 02:41 PM, Insanctuary wrote: 1. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I am digusted by it. Alot of people do disgusting stuff.

Can you define the word disgusting? If you are talking about reality, so what is disgusting in the 'real' world? Or I put it in another word: your real world.

You are chaining yourself with your own paradox here, bro.

I'm saying the overall nature, I suspect there is something off about them. It just seems like it's not 'real'. I get the same feeling when my mom brought me to a church. The lights dimmed around me, and everything seemed so fabricated. The smiles weren't real, and it's like.. It was zombified happiness.

Notice the words you used in your argument... 'zombifited', 'fabricated', 'overall nature'. Why do you generalize nature when you don't even know or do not want to know what is it? Too much sarcasm here.

Like AKACCMIOF pulled the chicken shit in your face, you do not want to accept reality while you are insisting whatever in front of you aren't real. Too much LSD last night?

Oh here is more bonus, asshole: Do you think human is the only one who has homosexual? Check this out, Parthenogenesis. Homosexual behavior in animals.

Sarcasm much bitch?

2. I'm just trying to make it clear that not everything is what it appears to be, esp. when you can see what I see. A world that is like puzzle pieces.

I suggest you pull your eyes out of their sockets to examine what is 'reality'.

As someone who is heterosexual, here is something I don't understand: How does a lack of discipline result in a person being gay? This makes absolutely no sense on the face of it. In order to do something because of a lack of discipline, an individual must have a desire to do something to being with. A lack of discipline does not cause a desire to manifest, it would just mean that there is nothing preventing the expression of said desire. I, for example, hate tomatoes. If you take away the impulse control centers of my brain, I still won't eat tomatoes because I don't have a desire to do so. Similarly, as I don't find men to be particularly attractive in a sexual sense, I somehow doubt that I would suddenly take to sleeping with other men.

Furthermore, when we consider that discipline prevents us from doing things that we desire to do, and since Insanctuary presumes that everyone's default desires should be heterosexual, then why would our end result be homosexuality? There are several instances of heterosexuals who lack any sort of "discipline" with regard to their sexuality, and often it is expressed in promiscuity with the opposite sex. The Jersey Shore cast, who seems to be the exemplar of Insanctuary's "rebelliousness" and "lack of discipline," sleep around with members of the opposite sex. Insanctuary's argument on the face of it frankly just doesn't pass muster no matter how many times he appeals to himself as an authority or appeals to his own emotions.

However, while doing so can often be wildly inaccurate, I can't help but speculate about what is going on in someone's head who makes such claims. Why would someone who lacks homosexual tendencies think discipline is in any way involved in preventing a behavior that they themselves lack any desire to do? I have to wonder if perhaps what we are really observing is the convoluted thought processes of a person in deep denial.

At 1/17/12 05:17 PM, Computer112 wrote: Like AKACCMIOF pulled the chicken shit in your face, you do not want to accept reality while you are insisting whatever in front of you aren't real. Too much LSD last night?

Oh here is more bonus, asshole: Do you think human is the only one who has homosexual? Check this out, Parthenogenesis. Homosexual behavior in animals.

Sarcasm much bitch?

2. I'm just trying to make it clear that not everything is what it appears to be, esp. when you can see what I see. A world that is like puzzle pieces.

I suggest you pull your eyes out of their sockets to examine what is 'reality'.

^ This. You're a little late to the ball game bro, but I gotta admire your swinging. Considering taking that comment and turning it into a gangsta rap.

Also @VigilanteNighthawk, I couldn't actually agree with everything you said more. Some people are LGBT, some aren't, if self discipline's the difference then how is anyone not LGBT? The fact of the matter is just that different people have different appetites.

I love nothing more than hot chips covered in salt, vinegar and galaxy chocolate (if you haven't tried it, actually do, its immense). That might not be your thing, and I'm not gonna try and make anyone eat it, just like I wouldn't like anyone to try and make me eat strawberry ice cream. Where exactly self discipline could possibly come into anyones appetites is beyond me.

Insanctuary you've said before that you choose to be abstinent, I would put forward that that is far more "unnatural" than homosexuality (which I dont consider to be unnatural at all btw) since abstinence is based on religious or quasi-religious bs whereas people who are homosexual are naturally so.

Figured I would put my two cents in.

I grew up Lutheran, and nearly the whole church was opposed to homosexuality. That being said, many members of my former church were also scared of letting members of minorities in (blacks, asians..etc which is crazy.) I left this church a few years ago to become a non-denominational Christian, because if you get down to the point, you really have to ask yourself, would Jesus turn anyone away?

I have not read the whole bible, but I have looked at quotes commonly used to define a certain churches position on homosexuality, and from what I have read, hardly any of them have to do really with homosexuality but rather "sin" in general. That being said, I am just one human being with one interpretation of one book, so I do believe that people can take a simple sentence and morph it into a thought/rant/tirade/belief of their own.

Going back to a previous point, if the leader of a church reads the bible himself/herself, he/she interprets it in their own way, and then they preach about what they read or they thought, and naturally that may not coincide with other members beliefs, but to them, if the pastor of the church is saying it, it must be the correct interpretation, right? Wrong.

I would say read the bible passages most commonly used to put up a fight for/against homosexuality, then come to your own conclusion. It's like the saying "don't always believe what you find on the internet.." because sometimes in may not be 100% true,

To be honest I really dislike Christians who don't like homosexuals. I'm not arguing god with anyone but isn't it the sin that god apparently doesn't like?

I believe that religion is far from the core of the whole homophobia or any variant form of prejudice at whichever installment at one point became the norm for Black people and Jewish people and racism that at the time was justified "because God said so" that is what the racists declared and they were wrong, but it is not because of religion it is because of fundamentalism and never the two shall be connected.

And now the same norm has been applied to Homosexuals and Arabs for prejudice and once again it is fundamentalism that is the culprit not religion and also racism and unfortunately there's an awful lot of tolerance for this intolerance and I pray that this will end much sooner than the rest. I however am not looking forward to what we have next at this installment which is going to be Liberals and Immigrants and after that...there's nothin' left so then we can finally hate people for who they really are! :P

Fear and loathing for gay people had to begin with man because man invented religion. Man invented its rules and doctrines, it's simply passed down through the ages through religion. People need something to believe in, something to follow, something to make them feel like life has purpose. Those that do so blindly will accept anything they're told and they will repeat it proudly.

At 1/24/12 05:57 PM, HookerID wrote: Those that do so blindly will accept anything they're told and they will repeat it proudly.

Don't blindly believe what the Atheist talking heads have handed down to you.

At 1/24/12 07:01 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 1/24/12 05:57 PM, HookerID wrote: Those that do so blindly will accept anything they're told and they will repeat it proudly.

Don't blindly believe what the Atheist talking heads have handed down to you.

Who says he is? Besides, last time I checked, we atheists HARDLY had a monopoly on simply believing whatever we were told.

At 1/24/12 08:15 PM, VigilanteNighthawk wrote: Who says he is? Besides, last time I checked, we atheists HARDLY had a monopoly on simply believing whatever we were told.

Never said that. Just commenting that he is doing exactly what he is ridiculing.