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Obama: Deserve re-election?

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Camarohusky
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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 26th, 2012 @ 07:44 PM Reply

At 4/26/12 06:35 PM, TheMason wrote: Again...wrong. Speaking as someone who has studied terrorism academically and works in the antiterrorism field...releasing the pictures would not have significantly increased violence. In some ways it may have suppressed it.

For some reason, I keep getting the feeling that had he released the picture you'd be on this topic saying how it was a bad idea...

1) This is not obscure, maybe forgotten by the average voter by now. But the Maersk Alabama hijacking was front page news here in the US. And when the SeALs took them out...it was front page news. They didn't exactly try to hide it.

If you were actually right, this would be the only thing they did. You tell me that the SEALs' entire anti-piracy campaign occuer between the rails of the Maersk Alabama.

Hell...Obama's ineptitude makes Bush look like Lincoln or Jefferson by comparison!

Get out the worms and the poles, Mason's going fishing.

I think Canada is one of our most important allies, yes. We share a border and many common social traits. However, I wouldn't say you're one of our strongest allies because you don't have much power projection.

Actually Canada is one of our biggest allies. They may have little military power, or little global political power, but they have a great deal of regional political power being able to poke a several thousand mile hole in many of our policies (mostly the national security ones). This doesn't even take into account the fact that much of our natural resources come from the land of maple syrup, pea soup, and Rush.


I am also very familiar with and follow Korean politics. And yes Obama is popular and well liked...but that doesn't mean he's effective. In some of our treaty negotiations with Seoul when he got personally involved...the treaties fell through. I don't give a shit how popular our president is...if he can't do his job. This isn't high school.

What was the substance of these treaties and what were the failing points?

it is a state of anarchy and no such thing as "international law" actually exists.

International law doesn't exist because the country with the best ability to give it legitimacy over the past 50-60 years was too busy fucking around behind the scenes. You're pulling a Clarence Thomas here.

TheMason
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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 26th, 2012 @ 08:14 PM Reply

At 4/26/12 10:00 AM, Celx-Requin wrote:

(Continued)

Frankly I think North Koreas opinion of America doesn't matter, they aren't going to do shit, they make a tiny ruckus to draw attention so they can negotiate for food for their terribly malnourished people. So they aren't a real threat to America in the slightest, although I do sympathize for the people there and I think military action should be taken on them. You're not stupid, so I'm sure you can see that pre-emptive measures would have massive repercussions on South Korea, which is why we aren't able to act now. The North Korean issue is something no president has wanted to touch with a ten foot pole for a long time.

The North Korean situation is far more nuanced than that.

1) The DPRK regime doesn't give fuck 1 about their malnourished people. The first place food aid goes is to the military so they continue supporting the Kim dynasty. If the food reaches the people it is a gift from the Great Successor...not a sign of international benevolence.
2) The DPRK regime doesn't give fuck 2 about playing nice with others...nor what any country other than China thinks about them (and even China doesn't matter sometimes). The Kim family is motivated by one thing: staying in power. So if the military wants something...they've got to give it to them. Yes...they have to balance out the 36K American military presence in the South along with a modernized ROK military. But if they perceive a lack of spine/will/balls they will act up. With Obama in office we've seen an increase in their bad behavior...behavior which has seen people get killed. I don't think this is a coincidence.
3) You know have a 27ish Leader in Pyongyang who did not go through the extensive grooming his father did under his grandfather. Is he going to be strong? Is he going to be more "irrational" than his father was? This last point is key. Rationality changes from culture to culture. What we perceive as being "rational" or in one's "self-interest" can often vary in other cultures. Ergo...Kim Jong Un is going to act in ways that will be very foreign to our eyes. And Obama has not really shown himself to be the kind of guy who is capable of making the hard choices (ie: the ill-fated "Green Revolution" in Iran). Yes...he ordered the SeALs to kill some pirates and bin Laden. But those were easy choices to make politically with very little chance of being a) unpopular or b) being terribly destructive. Obama missteps on the Korean penninsula and the whole region could destabilize.


I concur the health care bill could have been handled better, it was a start, but he failed to sell it to the public :(

There is no greater evidence of his incompetence than healthcare.
1) It is the intervention (however well intentioned) of the government via Medicare and Medicaid that is the main driving force behind increased healthcare costs in this country.
2) It is not the reason he was elected; in fact he followed his own ideologically-driven agenda rather than taking care of the needs of the American people through pursuing sane fiscal policy that would right the financial crisis that has led to the deepest economic contraction since the Great Depression.

At this point practically anyone would be better than Obama.


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TheMason
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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 26th, 2012 @ 08:50 PM Reply

At 4/26/12 07:44 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
At 4/26/12 06:35 PM, TheMason wrote: Again...wrong. Speaking as someone who has studied terrorism academically and works in the antiterrorism field...releasing the pictures would not have significantly increased violence. In some ways it may have suppressed it.
For some reason, I keep getting the feeling that had he released the picture you'd be on this topic saying how it was a bad idea...

No Camaro...I'd be giving him his credit.
1) The pictures would've been cathartic for the American public.
2) I have a buddy who is in the Canadian army...psyops...who deployed to Afghanistan and we've talked about the people and their attitudes. From him and other sources, I think releasing the pics would have actually tempered emotions.


1) This is not obscure, maybe forgotten by the average voter by now. But the Maersk Alabama hijacking was front page news here in the US. And when the SeALs took them out...it was front page news. They didn't exactly try to hide it.
If you were actually right, this would be the only thing they did. You tell me that the SEALs' entire anti-piracy campaign occuer between the rails of the Maersk Alabama.

Irrelevent. He brought up a single incident that was front page news and tried passing it off as something Obama did in secret...when it was very public.

Now...there is alot that we do do in secret, yes. But every president does that.

Oh...and here's some props for Obama:
1) He kept the promise to target al Qaida w/predator drones including targets in Pakistan...and he's looking to expand operations in Yemen. I think these are decisions which are risky and he deserves credit for making these hard decisions.
2) He's kept GitMo open. I think once he was in office and had access to what really goes on there...and then facing opposition from both sides of the aisle...I think he wisely backed off the issue.

Hell...Obama's ineptitude makes Bush look like Lincoln or Jefferson by comparison!
Get out the worms and the poles, Mason's going fishing.

Actually no. Bush was far more successfull as Obama at getting his policy agendas passed through Congress. I think his handling of the crisis of September '08 was a sign of a president actually being able to work through gridlock with a Congress just as hostile to the WH as this one.


I think Canada is one of our most important allies, yes. We share a border and many common social traits. However, I wouldn't say you're one of our strongest allies because you don't have much power projection.
Actually Canada is one of our biggest allies. They may have little military power, or little global political power, but they have a great deal of regional political power being able to poke a several thousand mile hole in many of our policies (mostly the national security ones). This doesn't even take into account the fact that much of our natural resources come from the land of maple syrup, pea soup, and Rush.

Again we have very close ties to Canada and they are an important ally. But let's not pretend that, other than an early warning system, they are on the same level as England or Korea in terms of strategic importance.

They are more important in terms of domestic policy than strategic foreign policy. For the most part we speak the same language. We have a fairly open border and trade. We have no military tension...in fact we're probably the two most military-cooperative countries in the world.

But when it comes time to project power or influence...we don't really turn to them like we do England in Europe or Korea in the Pacific. The reason: they don't really project their power or seek influence outside their borders. This is a very vital service they provide. An American can stick a Canadian flag on their backpack and move unmolested through much of Europe and the Middle East!


I am also very familiar with and follow Korean politics. And yes Obama is popular and well liked...but that doesn't mean he's effective. In some of our treaty negotiations with Seoul when he got personally involved...the treaties fell through. I don't give a shit how popular our president is...if he can't do his job. This isn't high school.
What was the substance of these treaties and what were the failing points?

Uh...just a small free trade treaty called the Korea-US Free Trade Agreement.

Most of the work had been done on this treaty in 2007. Diplomats were wrapping up some of the smaller issues that were sticking in the craw of both contries...but we had managed to come up with a deal that was acceptable to the Koreans. But then Obama, under UAW and Automakers, tried to renegotiate some of the finer points in a visit to Seoul. Then...after opening up old issues thought dealt with...went on TV and said we'd have a treaty only a few days later at the upcoming G20 summit.

This was just pure ineptitude on the part of the president. I mean the same class of stupidity and lack of deftness that one would expect from Sarah Palin or Herman Cain...not a suppossedly brilliant and accomplished community organizer who excells at bringing people together.


it is a state of anarchy and no such thing as "international law" actually exists.
International law doesn't exist because the country with the best ability to give it legitimacy over the past 50-60 years was too busy fucking around behind the scenes. You're pulling a Clarence Thomas here.

Not at all. In order for law to exist there has to be an agent that is responsible for enforcing the law...and its judgements. This requires someone to be the world police. I think Iraq was a test of that. Saddam was violating several UN resolutions that prescribed the use of force if violated. The lack of will to enforce these provisions on the part of the international community is proof that the old European Colonial powers and their now independent colonies have no interest in a New World Order that will promote a legitimate international law (and its attendant agencies) founded upon the rule of law.

I think you're putting on rose colored glasses here. :)


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TheMason
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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 27th, 2012 @ 11:48 AM Reply

@ Celx-Requin and Camaro:

First of all let me burn down you strawman I expect you build: I do not think Obama supports the following policy initiatives in Egypt.

However, I think his ineptitude in dealing with foreign affairs is enableing disgusting legislation being pushed by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

Farewell Intercourse: Based upon a cleric saying marriage goes past death, the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo is now pushing legislation that would allow ppl to have sex with their spouse up to 6hrs after their death.

Other legislation includes allowing child brides as young as 14 to be given away in arranged marriages. And they have also warned the population to prepare for war with Israel.

Now how is this a reflection of Obama's deftless foreign policy?

In Iran US support of those seeking to rid themselves of a theocracy could've toppled a rogue regime. Instead his timidity only made matters worse. Now in Egypt, not wanting to reproduce his timid mistake he goes ahead and with full ignorance of who was being the Tahrir Square protests...gave them support to overthrow Mubarak.

In short, he went with his rose colored community organizer worldview and now Egpytians have a government just as bad with the added benefit of regional instability.

The guy is clueless.


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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 27th, 2012 @ 03:10 PM Reply

At 4/27/12 11:48 AM, TheMason wrote: Farewell Intercourse: Based upon a cleric saying marriage goes past death, the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo is now pushing legislation that would allow ppl to have sex with their spouse up to 6hrs after their death.

Other legislation includes allowing child brides as young as 14 to be given away in arranged marriages. And they have also warned the population to prepare for war with Israel.

There are rumblings that this is probably a hoax, based on one blog post by a Mubarak loyalist, so pointing any fingers at Obama for such events is premature.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 27th, 2012 @ 03:29 PM Reply

At 4/27/12 03:10 PM, Ravariel wrote: There are rumblings that this is probably a hoax, based on one blog post by a Mubarak loyalist, so pointing any fingers at Obama for such events is premature.

Premature...probably yes. Fun and a guilty pleasure...definately yes!


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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 27th, 2012 @ 04:46 PM Reply

At 4/27/12 03:29 PM, TheMason wrote: Premature...probably yes. Fun and a guilty pleasure...definately yes!

Fair enough! :P


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Camarohusky
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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 27th, 2012 @ 05:08 PM Reply

At 4/26/12 08:50 PM, TheMason wrote: I think you're putting on rose colored glasses here. :)

More like I am putting on blue colored glasses as opposed to your red colored glasses.

Quick fact: Put our glasses together and you get 3D.

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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 27th, 2012 @ 05:29 PM Reply

At 4/27/12 03:10 PM, Ravariel wrote: There are rumblings that this is probably a hoax, based on one blog post by a Mubarak loyalist, so pointing any fingers at Obama for such events is premature.

The fatwa by the Moroccan and lowering the age of marriage seem to be real. The necrophilia law is nonsense, apparently.

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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 29th, 2012 @ 01:49 AM Reply

At 4/27/12 05:29 PM, Feoric wrote: ... The necrophilia law is nonsense, apparently.

It's interesting and I'd like to know what the truth of it is. Was it a pro-Mubarak move to discredit the Islamists? Or was it something actually being kicked around and when it leaked the Islamists backed-off quickly to avoid embarassment? Sadly we may never know.

However, that Islamists are in such a powerful position in post-Mubarak Egypt is alarming and I don't think it is a good thing.


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Response to Obama: Deserve re-election? Apr. 29th, 2012 @ 02:04 AM Reply

At 4/29/12 01:49 AM, TheMason wrote: It's interesting and I'd like to know what the truth of it is. Was it a pro-Mubarak move to discredit the Islamists? Or was it something actually being kicked around and when it leaked the Islamists backed-off quickly to avoid embarassment? Sadly we may never know.

I honestly don't know, it's kind of hard to get to the source of rumors, particularly in that region. I'll start doing some research tomorrow and get back to you on that.