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At 12/20/11 09:34 PM, MrPercie wrote: I dont really care what others got to say.

and ignorant you shall remain.

I agree that niqabs are idiotic, but you can't just ban someone's belief system.

Europe is such a funny place.They criticize the US then they have these laws that ban a certain dress.Might I add that those who wear these veils are a fraction of a fraction of a percent compared to the overall Muslim female population.To target this small population with a antional decree like this is unbecoming of "western ideals".

Why dont we just tell the Amish what they are doing and to conform to our technologically advanced society.

At 12/20/11 09:45 PM, MrPercie wrote: that has nothing to do with allowing a women to wear a burqa, and I dont think doing so would result in islam becoming part of the countrys goverment system.

you really can't make the connection that the whole burka thing is just a start do you?

I bet you also think that it's only white people that can be racist.

At 12/20/11 09:59 PM, Tramps wrote: These women have been conditioned by religion to think they need to cover themselves from head-to-toe which just isn't practical or necessary. It's too much of an extremist religion for my liking so I don't sympathise with them at all. Come to our country if you want but don't bring your entire culture with you and expect us to bend over backwards to compensate for you.

But that's their business.Many of these women in burquas do it on their own accord, its not an attempt by the Muslims to over run Europe and turn it into Saudi Arabia get real people.

At 12/20/11 10:04 PM, SouthAsian wrote: But that's their business.Many of these women in burquas do it on their own accord, its not an attempt by the Muslims to over run Europe and turn it into Saudi Arabia get real people.

Implying It's not happening as we speak.

More like France becomes more culturally ignorant.

I really don't know why France thinks this is something religious, in French law it states RELIGIOUS bans, not cultural.

In Islam, women can only expose their face, feet and hands if they wear a headscarf.
The veil was used by tribes you used to live in the desert for protection against the sand and sun, as it allows more air trapped inside making you cooler, and they covered their face from protection of the sand coming into their nostrils, eyes.

Men also wear similar style, it just looks different.

This was all pre Islam.

The Veiling of Virgins Ch. 17. Tertullian writes, "The pagan women of Arabia, who not only cover their head but their whole face, so that they would rather enjoy half the light with one eye free than prostitute the face, will judge you. (Judicabunt vos Arabiae feminae ethnicae quae non caput, sed faciem totam tegunt, ut uno oculo liberato contentae sint dimidiam frui lucem quam totam faciem prostituere)."

He was a early third-century Christian writer Tertullian, these primary sources show that some women in Arabia and Persia veiled their faces long before Islam.

At 12/20/11 10:58 PM, Cochises wrote: I really don't know why France thinks this is something religious, in French law it states RELIGIOUS bans, not cultural.

Because it's followed religiously?

At 12/20/11 10:16 PM, Tramps wrote:

How would they do it of their own accord unless they were following the religion? Take any woman born in India out of the country in the first year of her life and place her in England or America with a non-muslim family, she won't start wearing burqua's as a fashion statement. They do it because they're raised to believe in that religion and the religion dictates that they must dress like that.

Nowhere does it say that a women must wear a Burqa in Islam. Less than 1 % of Muslim women wear it in France. In their religion it does call for modest clothing to be worn but that is pretty much open for interpretation and will most likely depend on regional cultural customs.

I don't know the Muslim situation in Europe but here in the US the Muslims here are perfectly assimilated, contributing members of society.They have no desire or aim to overthrow this country.No Muslim has ever called for the overthrow of our Constitution and demand Shariah law, if one has he or she is considered on the extreme periphery, and is subsequently laughed out of the room by the other sensible Muslims.Europe is just wasting time in actually considering such a ridiculous scenario.

But that's what is slowly happening. The more we let these people in and compensate for their needs because of their religion, the more society changes to benefit them and not the masses. Like someone said, if someone was covered head to toe with gloves, face-mask, hoody, pants etc. - dress that wasn't at all related to religion, they'd be asked to remove what they're wearing. They're asked to remove it for security purposes and it's nothing to do with religion. They should adhere to the rules in place for everyone and not their own.

These women in the Burqas never asked for special consideration. If the French government never even paid attention to them, these women would have no reason to oppose them. They would be going along with their business as usual.The security excuse doesn't make sense. Can you even run in those things?Someone can just as easily be a security issue wearing a puffy jacket, or wearing a ski mask.Are they going to ban ski masks now?

In a real life example, at my college, all the meat we have is kosher which results in higher prices for all the food that have the meat in them. Only 6% of the students at my college are of a religion that requires meat to be prepared in certain ways, so for the 6%, 94% of us have to deal with having kosher meat and paying higher prices. How is it fair that the majority is beaten by the minority because of religion?

Then I think your college has suffered a severe lax in judgement when it comes to serving the student body. There's something shady when a tiny minority can change the rules like that. Did your classmates raise any real objections or formulate some kind of opposition movement?Did you make aware your cause for concern with the appropriate administration?

Tramps

Coming from a guy who comes whose country did exactly that to 1/4 of the world..?

At 12/20/11 10:17 PM, amplefied wrote:

At 12/20/11 10:04 PM, SouthAsian wrote: But that's their business.Many of these women in burquas do it on their own accord, its not an attempt by the Muslims to over run Europe and turn it into Saudi Arabia get real people.

Implying It's not happening as we speak.

Did you yourself even bother to watch what that video was about?If you thought that people in that video as calling for the annihilation for Western culture you are wrong. It was in support of the Palestinian people, they were showing political support if anything to the disfranchised Palestinians. They weren't calling for a religious war or a change of law to sharia. this video you posted has no basis in your argument that puts forward the ridiculous notion that Muslims want to change Europe into a Muslim state.

At 12/20/11 11:24 PM, SouthAsian wrote: I'm too lazy to click on other suggested links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xRmKTD96 po&feature=related

don't cry, let me know if you want another spoonful of told?

At 12/20/11 11:42 PM, amplefied wrote:

At 12/20/11 11:24 PM, SouthAsian wrote: I'm too lazy to click on other suggested links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xRmKTD96 po&feature=related

don't cry, let me know if you want another spoonful of told?

Tell me how those fringe extremist lunatics represent the British Muslim community as a whole?To me those are kids. Nothing more than attention starving egotistical highs school students.By your logic all Neo Nazis represent all whites?In any case you using youtube videos for your arguments arent really effective.Why not just say yourself how you feel about the situation?Seems like these you tube videos miss your point altogether.

At 12/20/11 11:59 PM, SouthAsian wrote: Tell me how those fringe extremist lunatics represent the British Muslim community as a whole?

You asked for proof of "ridiculous notion that Muslims want to change Europe into a Muslim state" you got it.

Suck on it.

To me those are kids. Nothing more than attention starving egotistical highs school students

Yeah, and they blow up busses and fly planes into buildings, along with blowing themselves up, what already forgot? These are the same people given rights in European countries.

By your logic all Neo Nazis represent all whites?

If things progress as they are we will see more Neo Nazis, like for example in Russia of all places, where these sentiments are reaching state level.

In any case you using youtube videos for your arguments arent really effective.Why not just say yourself how you feel about the situation?Seems like these you tube videos miss your point altogether.

Maybe I want you to start using your brain for ones and not go on assuptions and actually get an idea what you're commenting on.

Seems like you're too stuck up your own ass to see the full picture and I'm using videos as sources that yes maybe the French government has very good reasons to put a ban on Burka and that perhaps your kindergarden hippie notions of freedome and love and peace do not fit in this equation.

Ahh the Daily Mail, so right-wing it fell off the plane.

At 12/21/11 12:17 AM, amplefied wrote:

You asked for proof of "ridiculous notion that Muslims want to change Europe into a Muslim state" you got it.

Suck on it.

The question is, do most Muslims in Britain call for the Queen to be forced out, and for the U.K. to become an Islamic theocracy?Can we honestly do a survey and do a population sample and see if this radical concept is held in high esteem by thousands of Muslims?

Yeah, and they blow up busses and fly planes into buildings, along with blowing themselves up, what already forgot? These are the same people given rights in European countries.

Even though these Muslim extremists are lucky to have the right to say these things without fear of getting their skulls smashed open with a baton, we can rest peacefully knowing their ideology can never truly see true popular acclaim, simply because of the outrageous elements they harbor.They are too extremist too volatile.Even for most fundamentalists.

If things progress as they are we will see more Neo Nazis, like for example in Russia of all places, where these sentiments are reaching state level.

Russia has been a mess and hasn't really changed since the cold war.The Neo Nazi phenomenon there is because of consistent failure in the government.Too much abject poverty, not enough economic opportunity. Things continue to become worse because Russia continues to believe it is the same power house decades ago.It doesn't help that for the past several decades going back a century and more, Russia has refused to grant sovereignty to the Chechen s who have taken upon themselves to defend their national aspirations.

Russia just doesn't get it.They try to hold onto these republics, that want nothing to do with Putin.Russians become wary of Chechen's ie Caucasians, Central Asians because of this war, and so that's where the Nazi movements comes from.

Maybe I want you to start using your brain for ones and not go on assuptions and actually get an idea what you're commenting on.

I'm fully aware of what the Muslim far right wants, and I know they never will succeed in changing any true Democracy or free state.We have already come too far to degrade ourselves back to religious governance be it Muslim or non.

Seems like you're too stuck up your own ass to see the full picture and I'm using videos as sources that yes maybe the French government has very good reasons to put a ban on Burka and that perhaps your kindergarden hippie notions of freedome and love and peace do not fit in this equation.

This silly Burqa law they have is far too overarching and over kill, just to put some 1,400 Muslim housewives in their place.It definitely has some sort of cultural revisionist undertones.

You caught me in a good mood, so let's begin, shall we?

At 12/15/11 10:01 PM, amplefied wrote:

At 12/15/11 07:41 PM, ClickToPlay wrote:

Well it is accepted in your religion to lie to 'infidels', so fuck you buddy.

"Taqiyya was developed to protect Shi'ites who were usually in minority and under pressure. In the Shi'a view, taqiyya is lawful in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby.

The majority Sunni Muslims rarely found it necessary to hide their beliefs. However, there are examples of practicing Taqiyya among Sunnis where it was necessary. In the Sunni view, denying your faith under duress is "only at most permitted and not under all circumstances obligatory".

Oops.

At 12/20/11 09:30 PM, amplefied wrote:

Do at least some research before spouting bullshit.

Point 1: A very simplified view of abrogation that ignores it's original need and purpose and ignores the disagreements over it's valid use. "Yet despite its dependence on chronology, naskh is in no way a historiographical enterprise:"

Oops.

Point 2: "Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship. Different countries, societies and cultures have varying interpretations of sharia as well."

But you or the video don't care about that, of course. Funny, you say "do your research" yet all you've done is post one-sided videos and regurgitated whatever they had to say.

"Sharia in the secular Muslim states: Muslim countries such as Mali, Kazakhstan and Turkey have declared themselves to be secular. Here, religious interference in state affairs, law and politics is prohibited. In these MUSLIM countries, as well as the secular West, the role of sharia is limited to personal and family matters."

Oops.

Point 3: The Koran does not tell Muslims to deceive non-believers. That is when saying you were a Muslim resulted in serious danger or loss of life.

Oops.

At 12/20/11 10:17 PM, amplefied wrote:

Implying It's not happening as we speak.

Well what do you know, another MUST SEE!! video about a few extremist nutjobs trying to be passed off as what all Muslims think.

At 12/20/11 11:42 PM, amplefied wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xRmKTD96 po&feature=related

And another one, you're batting 1.000 so far champ.

Tell you what, though, why don't you go talk to a sane moderate Muslim(an oxymoron to you, of course) and ask if they want to see the Islamification of the world and the destruction of human rights.

But of course, if they tell you the opposite of what you believe or what the videos say, they're just lying and using Taqiyya, right?

Even though using that when they're faith isn't in danger, and from the looks of those videos, it's certainly not in danger but "thriving," would go against Islam.

Good night, champ.

At 12/21/11 12:42 AM, SouthAsian wrote:

The question is, do most Muslims in Britain call for the Queen to be forced out, and for the U.K. to become an Islamic theocracy?Can we honestly do a survey and do a population sample and see if this radical concept is held in high esteem by thousands of Muslims?

Ever wonder why we never hear these normal peace loving muslims actively and directly confront and oppose these radicals? Maybe they hold the same view, maybe they fear of getting targeted or their families getting targeted by the radicals, maybe it's in their religion to lie. I've studied how surveys work, they're just as innacurate as

Even though these Muslim extremists are lucky to have the right to say these things without fear of getting their skulls smashed open with a baton, we can rest peacefully knowing their ideology can never truly see true popular acclaim, simply because of the outrageous elements they harbor.They are too extremist too volatile. Even for most fundamentalists.

Yeah, tell that to the Swedish girls that got raped

Russia has been a mess and hasn't really changed since the cold war.The Neo Nazi phenomenon there is because of consistent failure in the government.Too much abject poverty, not enough economic opportunity. Things continue to become worse because Russia continues to believe it is the same power house decades ago.It doesn't help that for the past several decades going back a century and more, Russia has refused to grant sovereignty to the Chechen s who have taken upon themselves to defend their national aspirations.

You shitting me? Things have improved by a huge margin just look up at country statistics. If anything Putin is good for Russia as opposed to what those whiny protesters claim. Change doesn't come over night and it will take more time for things to settle after the catastrophic failure of USSR. From what I'm hearing the US isn't doing so well either and it hasn't really experianced two World Wars, a Totalitarian Regime and a systematic break down.

Russia just doesn't get it.They try to hold onto these republics, that want nothing to do with Putin.Russians become wary of Chechen's ie Caucasians, Central Asians because of this war, and so that's where the Nazi movements comes from.

Don't comment on things you don't fully understand, Chechen land was Russian and Russia already lost too much after the break of USSR. That's not where the Nazi sentiments come from either. It's more related to foreign cheap labour from muslim nations.

I'm fully aware of what the Muslim far right wants, and I know they never will succeed in changing any true Democracy or free state.We have already come too far to degrade ourselves back to religious governance be it Muslim or non.

Hurp de durp

It starts pretty innocent doesn't it?

This silly Burqa law they have is far too overarching and over kill, just to put some 1,400 Muslim housewives in their place.It definitely has some sort of cultural revisionist undertones.

If it's silly, why all the rage

I wonder if Islamist groups will start a blitzkrieg towards France and suddenly they would surrender.

At 12/21/11 12:44 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: wikipedia

If you were to use wikipedia as a source in academic circles you'd be laughed out of the room and never pass the exams, so far you've demonstrated you can google a wikipedia article. That barely qualifies as research. Good job at regurgitating, which you so accuse me of. How about YOU provide some other evidence to support those claims.

You seemed to have also failed to scroll further down to Contemporary Issues, which the video adresses.

What I'm linking to a real documented events, not dry statements written by who knows who

Nice job at not getting that the problem is not the Sharia law in Muslim countries, but the Sharia law in none-Muslim countries.

Kazakhstan

FUCK THOSE MUD MONKEYS

my friends mother lost a leg to those faggots

At 12/21/11 01:50 AM, amplefied wrote: If you were to use wikipedia as a source in academic circles you'd be laughed out of the room

That's the same as what happens when people blatantly avoid addressing points and arguments and instead just point out where their debater attained his/her information.

At 12/21/11 01:59 AM, yurgenburgen wrote: That's the same as what happens when people blatantly avoid addressing points and arguments and instead just point out where their debater attained his/her information.

>Implying he had a point
>Implying he adressed any of the points sufficiantly

looked more liek an attempt at derailment and selective replying taken out of context.

Something wrong with providing the view on the ugly face Islam?

Seriously don't bring in second or third generation Muslims here, I know those guys are cool. The problem are the real thing coming in.

Which is the equivalent of Mexicans coming in US and demanding that everybody should abide by their rules because lol different culture.

So it's jail time already? I remember not too long ago they only handed out fines for it, but apparently she has to go to jail for two years? Two years? Jesus Christ, even if you beat someone to near death you won't have to go to jail for that long.

Anyway, I know they're planning a similar law over here, with similar reasonings. Another reason our government has brought up is "When you talk to someone you have to be able to see each others face", which I guess is a decent point, but still, how does a burqa really bother me? Even though some people like to pretend, it doesn't really harm anyone if a woman wears a burqa when she walks down the street or talks to someone.

"It's a symbol of oppression" is another commonly heard phrase here, and while that could be right, I don't think this law is the right way to deal with that. You are sort of treating them like second class citizens yourself this way by taking away their right to practice their beliefs. Why don't you go after the people who still oppress these women instead?

I can't see the real need for this populistic law besides simply bullying those few hundred muslim women in our country who actually wear a burqa and who will never take it off anyway. In the end it only feeds xenophobia if you ask me. I hope this law will get shot down here.

At 12/21/11 12:44 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Even though using that when they're faith isn't in danger, and from the looks of those videos, it's certainly not in danger but "thriving," would go against Islam.

Not in danger? Really? Did two wars in Iraq one in Afganistan along with tensions regarding Israel/Palestine and tension with Iran fly over your head? Maybe there actually is a necessity to hide.

Not to mention that questioning Islam is forbidded and prosecuted.

At 12/21/11 04:03 AM, amplefied wrote:

At 12/21/11 12:44 AM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Even though using that when they're faith isn't in danger, and from the looks of those videos, it's certainly not in danger but "thriving," would go against Islam.

Not in danger? Really? Did two wars in Iraq one in Afganistan along with tensions regarding Israel/Palestine and tension with Iran fly over your head? Maybe there actually is a necessity to hide.

Not to mention that questioning Islam is forbidded and prosecuted.

The only danger was the USA.

You still don't understand that you went to war with Iraq under a false flag operation?
And the same people you are fighting in Afghanistan you created and funded in the 70's against the invading Russians?

Why do you think they are attacking you guys now? Because you're in the same position as those invading Russians were 40 years ago!

Give it a break, you guys are the oppressors, not the Muslims.

At 12/21/11 04:12 AM, Cochises wrote: Give it a break, you guys are the oppressors, not the Muslims.

Actually I'm Russian myself, I live Europe.

Also yes I am fully aware that the shit US stirred in middle east is now spilling over to Europe due to war refugees.

It does not make the actions of Islam proponents any better. Only gives excuses for the likes of Breivik to arise.

At 12/21/11 04:21 AM, amplefied wrote:

At 12/21/11 04:12 AM, Cochises wrote: Give it a break, you guys are the oppressors, not the Muslims.

Actually I'm Russian myself, I live Europe.

Also yes I am fully aware that the shit US stirred in middle east is now spilling over to Europe due to war refugees.

It does not make the actions of Islam proponents any better. Only gives excuses for the likes of Breivik to arise.

They are only acted this way in defense.

Now I am not condoning the acts of these terrorists here, what they are doing is wrong, and against Islam.

But in reality they are only fighting their oppressors.

Notice why the majority of Arab or Muslims countries who are not invaded have n problems with the West?

Their views are nationalistic, by hide under the cloak of Islam.

At 12/21/11 04:36 AM, Cochises wrote: But in reality they are only fighting their oppressors.

More like spreding dissent.

Perhaps even showing the the true face of Islam.