Political Correctness in Holidays

[TNT]

Well it is that time of year again where politicians are blabbing about how we need to call it a Holiday Tree instead of a Christmas Tree, and we must say Happy Holidays over Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, etc.

Personally I am sick of the idea that we must be politically correct when it comes to the holidays, especially now when the US Government is making Christmas such a taboo. I have nothing against people saying "Happy Holidays", but I have nothing against people saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hanukkah" to me as well. They're holidays that meant to spread joy regardless (for the most part anyway).

Rick Perry recently placed an ad about how he wants to defend the Christian people. Let me first by saying that I do not support him, and he is one of the worse GOP candidates running in my opinion. Yet I can actually kinda understand where he is coming from, but he worded it so poorly that it sounds like he wants to reinstate Don't Ask Don't Tell. Basically, Perry wants to see that schools do not punish those who openly celebrate Christmas and/or pray in schools (unless they are disrupting academics of course). That could be applied to any religion like Judaism or Islam too. How in hell did we get to the point where schools are punishing students (or coaches) for doing stuff like this?

Understandably this is from a public school, where most laws prohibit teaching a religion.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that the government should ease tension over how some people practice their religion and their holidays as long as it is not harming others or disrupting academics. This is not me saying that all schools must teach Christianity or another religion, but this to me has gotten way too far. What ever happened to Freedom of Religion?

Please post your thoughts on this.

[morefngdbs]

Merry Christmas to you all !

I hope you all enjoy your Christmas tree, & happy New Years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZjR7xyy WE

[Dogbert581]

Certainly here, it seems to be the only ones who care about political correctness are the ones who have no right to be offended by it. For instnace, a couple of years ago a council near me didnt put up a christmas tree because they didnt want to offend non christians. It wasn't until the local muslim group replied with 'Don't tell us what we think, we don't care, we want you to celebrate your holidays and we won't be offended if you do' that the tree was actually allowed to go up.

(Slightly off topic now)

Why do all political videos in the US seem to end with 'I'm [insert name here] and I approve this message'?

I gathered that you approved it due to the fact you appear in it

[MultiCanimefan]

There's nothing politically correct about "Happy Holidays," it's just acknowledging the fact that there's more than one holiday. Including other holidays under that umbrella isn't being politically correct, it's being considerate. Only reason it is considered PC is because for the majority of the country's history, it's always been Christmas.

"This is AMERICA, we say MERRY CHRISTMAS here, if you don't like it then leave!"

Welp, so much for the American Dream.

Then again, this is America, where everything revolves around us and ANY deviation from the status quo is considered politically correct, even if it's factual.

Like saying America was discovered by anyone other than Columbus(for the record, it was, the vikings and Chinese) is politically correct and some Liberal plot to teach revisionist history.

[Camarohusky]

You bring up something that we as Americans, well, flat out suck at. That being treading a fine line.

There is a very fine line between being who we are and openly supporting and offending others. Religion in a non-homogenius society does not mesh with our "go big or go home" national attitude.

Sometimes it's better to get some people's panties in a knot because they are too restricted than to let many people run roughshod over others.

[thegarbear14]

i saw that and most people are calling him "anti-gay." I don't think that is what he meant by the speach. they either didn't watch after he gays serving in the military or are looking for another reason not to like him. personally idk much about him but what he said seems like poor wording. and the whole politically correct cannot say christmas tree thing is bs. OMFG THEY ARE GOING TO BE OFFENDED BY SOMEONE ELSE HAVING BELIEFS THAT ARE DIFFERENT OMFG. if any government sponsered place puts up decorations they should have them for all beliefs but have to call christmas trees holiday trees and shizzle? no.

[TNT]

At 12/8/11 05:04 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: There's nothing politically correct about "Happy Holidays," it's just acknowledging the fact that there's more than one holiday. Including other holidays under that umbrella isn't being politically correct, it's being considerate. Only reason it is considered PC is because for the majority of the country's history, it's always been Christmas.

Actually, it is being politically correct not because there are multiple holidays, but "we don't want to offend someone because he/she might celebrate a different holiday(s)".

"This is AMERICA, we say MERRY CHRISTMAS here, if you don't like it then leave!"

Welp, so much for the American Dream.

You get no argument from me, those people are incredibly disrespectful.

Like saying America was discovered by anyone other than Columbus(for the record, it was, the vikings and Chinese) is politically correct and some Liberal plot to teach revisionist history.

I always thought America was discovered by Native Americans because they walked across the frozen barring strait.

Unless that what you meant by Chinese.

[MultiCanimefan]

At 12/8/11 06:01 PM, TNT wrote:

At 12/8/11 05:04 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

Actually, it is being politically correct not because there are multiple holidays, but "we don't want to offend someone because he/she might celebrate a different holiday(s)".

My mistake. Then those offended really need a re-assessment of priorities.

I always thought America was discovered by Native Americans because they walked across the frozen barring strait.

Lies, the Native Americans were holograms planted there by Socialists.

Unless that what you meant by Chinese.

The Chinese landed in America at some point, I'm not sure of the exact date.

[djack]

At 12/8/11 06:19 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

At 12/8/11 06:01 PM, TNT wrote:

At 12/8/11 05:04 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

Actually, it is being politically correct not because there are multiple holidays, but "we don't want to offend someone because he/she might celebrate a different holiday(s)".

My mistake. Then those offended really need a re-assessment of priorities.

I don't think anyone is truly offended by "Merry Christmas". I'm pretty sure that modern societies attempt at "sensitivity" instead resulted in behavior more akin to a phobia of discrimination and anything that has any affiliation with a specific group is labeled as potentially offensive.

I always thought America was discovered by Native Americans because they walked across the frozen barring strait.

Lies, the Native Americans were holograms planted there by Socialists.

Unless that what you meant by Chinese.

The Chinese landed in America at some point, I'm not sure of the exact date.

1421, 71 years before Columbus. Google is helpful for these types of things.

[Iron-Hampster]

No opinion or expression should be forced on anybody. that goes for everything including our culture, and it goes both ways.

[Camarohusky]

At 12/8/11 07:30 PM, djack wrote: I don't think anyone is truly offended by "Merry Christmas". I'm pretty sure that modern societies attempt at "sensitivity" instead resulted in behavior more akin to a phobia of discrimination and anything that has any affiliation with a specific group is labeled as potentially offensive.

It's not that people are offended just because others celebrate Christmas. It comes down to two things. When the government celebrates Christmas it comes very close to supporting the religion upon which Christmas is based. When private companies celebrate Christmas people begin to feel left out. Businesses have learned that this is not a feeling that induces shopping. It may also open up religious discrimination suits in the form of "I was intentionally removed from benefit because I was not Christian."

So in other words, it isn't an attack on Christmas. It was actually an attempt to include non-Christians in the season, but the hardcore Christians wanted to have their cake and eat it too. So they turned themselves into victims and started complaining that the evil Godless people were depriving them of their holiday (as if the having a Christmas celebration in every aspect but the title is really depriving them of anything)

1421, 71 years before Columbus. Google is helpful for these types of things.

I have heard from many sources in academia that this theory was hobbled together with shoddy and unreliable evidence and contains numerous massive logical jumps (Ancient Aliens style). In other words, many Chinese history professors think this guy's research is suspect and his conclusions are bunk.

[Leap]

At 12/8/11 05:44 PM, thegarbear14 wrote: i saw that and most people are calling him "anti-gay." I don't think that is what he meant by the speach. they either didn't watch after he gays serving in the military or are looking for another reason not to like him. personally idk much about him but what he said seems like poor wording. and the whole politically correct cannot say christmas tree thing is bs. OMFG THEY ARE GOING TO BE OFFENDED BY SOMEONE ELSE HAVING BELIEFS THAT ARE DIFFERENT OMFG. if any government sponsered place puts up decorations they should have them for all beliefs but have to call christmas trees holiday trees and shizzle? no.

I too saw the ad (on Youtube, because thankfully we don't have your insane brand of politics here in the UK. We have our own brand of insane politics.). Sorry, at worst he's a bigot and at best he's a hypocritical moron. In a country where 70% of people self identify as a "Christian" of one denomination or another, he was trying to equate himself as the force for good against Obama's "war on religion". This is bullshit, it's a continuation of all the crap that's appeared since Obama took office, Healthcare, the birth certificate, is he a Muslim? Quite frankly it's showing the GOP up for the immature little children they have the collective IQ of.

I'd like to think that the jacket from Brokeback Mountain he was wearing and the the music by a gay composer that was used as background in the ad was an ironic statement. A wink to those in the know that he knew that what he was saying wan61't meant to be taken literately. Then I remembered, he's a 61 year old Yank. He doesn't have a sense of irony.

Getting back on topic: I don't care if someone wishes me a merry Christmas. As an atheist I love Christmas, the pressies, the food. Even those crap jokes in the crackers. In fact the only problem I have specific to this time of years is when some fundie Christian starts harping on about "the reason for the season". Christmas was a PAGAN festival, long before Christianity came on the scene. It was never about the idiot who got himself nailed to a cross. It was about having something to brighten up the cold winter months and a celebration so that the sun would rise again in the spring. It's about drinking too much, eating too much and if you were lucky, having sex with someone slightly inappropriate.

Happy Winter Solstice everybody.

[Gario]

At 12/8/11 08:36 PM, Camarohusky wrote: It's not that people are offended just because others celebrate Christmas. It comes down to two things. When the government celebrates Christmas it comes very close to supporting the religion upon which Christmas is based.

That Ancient Roman holiday that was about debauchery and awesomeness? That's where it comes from, after all.

That aside, while it's roots are Christian, the holiday has found itself on relatively neutral grounds as of late - it's more about the 'spirit of giving' and general goodwill rather than the birth of Christ, for people that aren't Christians (and hell, for most that are, too). It has a Christian foundation (er, actually Roman, but you know what I mean), but most of the time the Christian association is avoided.

When private companies celebrate Christmas people begin to feel left out. Businesses have learned that this is not a feeling that induces shopping. It may also open up religious discrimination suits in the form of "I was intentionally removed from benefit because I was not Christian."

If that's true then I completely understand if companies... wait a minute, isn't most of the country Christian? I don't want people to be left out, but wouldn't it be smarter for their bottom line if they directed their shops toward the majority?

In fact, I think most shops do openly acknowledge Christmas, at this time, so I'm a bit confused. I'd like to see some links supporting what you're saying, because it doesn't make business sense, to me.

It was never about the idiot who got himself nailed to a cross.

Funny how one can virtually agree with everything that another says (as I do with you), then throw in a random insult to try to throw up barriers for the sole sake of throwing up barriers. Y'know you could get more support from both sides if you keep idiocies like that to yourself, especially when they're not true (Christmas was taken over by Christians, so at least at that point in time it was about Jesus, even if you didn't want it to be).

I still love you though.

----------

Eh, I'm fine with people saying 'Happy Holidays'. I'm fine with people saying 'Merry Christmas'. I'm not fine with people that get their pantyhose in a twist when someone says 'Merry Christmas', accusing them of religious discrimination. I'm not fine with Christians that get angry at others for NOT saying 'Merry Christmas' because they think everyone should call it the same thing. Give people the space to say whatever they want about whatever holiday they think it is. There are idiots on both sides of the religious fence that don't understand this, which is a shame.

[Warforger]

At 12/8/11 05:04 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Like saying America was discovered by anyone other than Columbus(for the record, it was, the vikings and Chinese) is politically correct and some Liberal plot to teach revisionist history.

No, but often what is is bringing up that Columbus was a butcher, outright sadistic with his treatment of the natives, accounts of Spanish conquistadors sharpening their blades using the heads of two young Arawak Indian boys, forcing the population to work to death in search of gold. THAT is what parents would object to their kids learning in school.

[MrFlopz]

If you say "Merry Christmas!" Jews and other religious group complain that they are being excluded. Fair enough.

So it was changed to "Happy Holidays!" but Christians bitch and moan that this is part of some elaborate war on Christmas where the secular liberal media deliberately undermines Christmas by refusing to say the name of the holiday.

So they changed it to "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays" but Christians still complained because the slogan has become too long and that it should be shortened by leaving out this blasphemous "happy holidays". On the other hand other religious groups complain that this emphasizes Christmas above the other holidays by putting Christmas first and throwing all other holidays in after as an afterthought.

WE CAN'T FUCKING WIN CAN WE???????

MERRY FUCKING CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY GODDAMN HOLIDAYS!!!!

[WallofYawn]

Merry Christmahanakwanzika everybody! :)

The first multi-cultural, completely politically correct, makes-everyone unnecessarily happy, holiday!

Yay!

[WallofYawn]

Now everyone can be happy, in their own petty and retarded way! Now to tackle halloween and all saints day! Hazzahleluhua!

[morefngdbs]

wewll there has been a lot of really good responses to this since I've last been here.
None as good as that foamy link I posted, but pretty good all in all.

[Korriken]

meh, my biggest gripe about Christmas has nothing to do with political correctness, that much I don't really give a damn about. My biggest gripe is how Christmas is about some fat guy in a suit going around satisfying greedy little children.

giving the kid a little toy or something is fine. My problem is Christmas is a corporate orgy... as is Easter. I mean seriously, "a rabbit sneaks around delivering baskets of candy to all the little children.. brand name candy too!"

Whatever happened to "It's a time to celebrate the birth of the savior!"?

I dread the day I end up with a kid... I'm sure it'll be a battle between me and the woman. I don't really believe in buying the kid(s) all the latest gadgets and toys. If I'm gonna get you a new Xbox, I'm not gonna wait til Christmas and give the credit to some overweight old man in a big red suit who breaks into people's homes in order to dispense counterfeit goods. Unless Santa has the proper licenses to produce all this stuff... *shrug*

Santa's a criminal and we all love him.

[Camarohusky]

At 12/13/11 09:10 AM, Korriken wrote: Whatever happened to "It's a time to celebrate the birth of the savior!"?

Valid concern. Some people clearly take it too far. No doubt. However, there's more to it than just throwing toys and money at the kids. There's tradition and the feel, and the kids.

I dread the day I end up with a kid... I'm sure it'll be a battle between me and the woman. I don't really believe in buying the kid(s) all the latest gadgets and toys. If I'm gonna get you a new Xbox, I'm not gonna wait til Christmas and give the credit to some overweight old man in a big red suit who breaks into people's homes in order to dispense counterfeit goods.

You act all prinicpled now, but things change when you have a real kiddo. Trust me.

[Morph94]

I honestly don't care, because I'm going to say 'Merry Christmas' to people until either I'm dead or the two words are tabooed.

[Camarohusky]

At 12/13/11 03:40 PM, Morph94 wrote: I honestly don't care, because I'm going to say 'Merry Christmas' to people until either I'm dead or the two words are tabooed.

And yo're missing the point...

The ONLY people who give a shit whether you celebrate Christmas are those who bitch about "Christmas" being removed fromt he holidays...

This has nothing to do with how private people celebrate holidays.

[Bolo]

Christmas, Christianity, and religion should definitely be kept out of the public sphere. it's quite simple, and it's a principle that has worked for hundreds of years to prevent religious tyranny from exerting control over a society that abhors tyranny of all types. I don't understand why people are suddenly up in arms about a longstanding and well-intentioned policy that has the backing of the founding fathers themselves.

[djack]

At 12/13/11 04:37 PM, Camarohusky wrote: And you're missing the point...

The ONLY people who give a shit whether you celebrate Christmas are those who bitch about "Christmas" being removed from the holidays...

This has nothing to do with how private people celebrate holidays.

You say that and yet right after your post is a post about how Christmas shouldn't be celebrated publicly because it's part of religious tyranny. There are two types of people who want to stop the phrase Merry Christmas. The ones who want to stop any public religious displays and the ones who want to avoid offending anyone by forcing everyone to change their behavior. The former are clearly attacking religion (just read Bolo's post, is there any rational reason to believe that public celebration of Christmas is going to result in a theocracy? obviously not but that doesn't stop some people from making the claim) which does support the idea that there is a war on Christmas, and between that and lawsuits about Christmas trees and nativity scenes being in public places, lawsuits filed by groups that aren't affiliated with any religious group I might add, it's easy to see that there really are people who want to stop the public celebration of Christmas. The latter group is taking something that really isn't offensive and offending people by telling them they shouldn't do it.

[Bolo]

At 12/13/11 05:22 PM, djack wrote: You say that and yet right after your post is a post about how Christmas shouldn't be celebrated publicly because it's part of religious tyranny. There are two types of people who want to stop the phrase Merry Christmas. The ones who want to stop any public religious displays and the ones who want to avoid offending anyone by forcing everyone to change their behavior. The former are clearly attacking religion (just read Bolo's post, is there any rational reason to believe that public celebration of Christmas is going to result in a theocracy?

I would disagree, given the stance of men like Rick Perry, who based on public statements they have made, are actively working towards the creation of a theocracy in the United States. One need look no further than the Treaty of Tripoli - submitted by John Adams himself and ratified by Congress! - which reads thus:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen, - and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. "

It is clear that the intention from the outset was to prevent the incursion of religion into public affairs. Men like Rick Perry are an affront and a disgrace to the principles upon which our country was founded.

obviously not but that doesn't stop some people from making the claim) which does support the idea that there is a war on Christmas, and between that and lawsuits about Christmas trees and nativity scenes being in public places, lawsuits filed by groups that aren't affiliated with any religious group I might add, it's easy to see that there really are people who want to stop the public celebration of Christmas. The latter group is taking something that really isn't offensive and offending people by telling them they shouldn't do it.

Christmas can be celebrated by people on their own time. In their own homes. On their private property. Just keep it the fuck out of the public sphere; it doesn't belong in public institutions, it doesn't belong in schools, it doesn't belong in government -- it belongs in church, or in private businesses, or in private homes if people are so inclined.

[Gario]

At 12/13/11 06:28 PM, Bolo wrote:
I would disagree, given the stance of men like Rick Perry, who based on public statements they have made, are actively working towards the creation of a theocracy in the United States.

Rick Perry is a moron who disgraces the United States image with his platform for candidacy. It doesn't mean that everyone who says 'Merry Christmas' or would like to celebrate the holiday publically is trying to start a theocracy - you're creating a slippery slope.

[WallofYawn]

At 12/13/11 09:10 AM, Korriken wrote: meh, my biggest gripe about Christmas has nothing to do with political correctness, that much I don't really give a damn about. My biggest gripe is how Christmas is about some fat guy in a suit going around satisfying greedy little children.

Saint Nicolaus was a real person, actually. He delivered toys to sick and needy children during winter time, when no one else could, or was willing, to get to them in the snowy blizzards. This was in Europe originally, I believe(possibly Germany, I don't know), and this story eventually morphed into the fat bastard in the red suit, delivering toys in a flying sleigh with reindeer, jumping down chimneys, and gobbling up all the milk and cookies.

giving the kid a little toy or something is fine. My problem is Christmas is a corporate orgy... as is Easter. I mean seriously, "a rabbit sneaks around delivering baskets of candy to all the little children.. brand name candy too!"

Easter is named after Esther, a pagan rabbit god. You paint eggs, and hide them, because the eggs contain the souls of the dearly departed. They're like an offering to the god, for a good harvest/spring.

Whatever happened to "It's a time to celebrate the birth of the savior!"?

I don't know, because not only did Jesus not live, or exist in the first century, but he was not born on Dec. 25th. In fact, it never says so in the bible, I don't believe. Nor does it specifically say that Easter is the day he came back to life. The dates were changed, to try and convert pagans, much like all saints day/all souls day occurring during the dates of All Hallows Eve, Samhain, and Walpurgisnacht.

I dread the day I end up with a kid... I'm sure it'll be a battle between me and the woman. I don't really believe in buying the kid(s) all the latest gadgets and toys. If I'm gonna get you a new Xbox, I'm not gonna wait til Christmas and give the credit to some overweight old man in a big red suit who breaks into people's homes in order to dispense counterfeit goods. Unless Santa has the proper licenses to produce all this stuff... *shrug*

Santa's a criminal and we all love him.

Santa is fake. At least, the big fat red guy version of him. Saint Nicolaus has been dead for hundreds of years now. But I agree, Christmas is a commercial holiday these days. For me, it's just an excuse to get wasted, and gorge myself on delicious food. I don't really care much about the gifts. I think when you hit adulthood, holidays have less meaning than they used to, and you stop caring as much about receiving/giving gifts. As they say, it truly is the thought that counts.

[Iron-Hampster]

At 12/13/11 09:10 AM, Korriken wrote: meh, my biggest gripe about Christmas has nothing to do with political correctness, that much I don't really give a damn about. My biggest gripe is how Christmas is about some fat guy in a suit going around satisfying greedy little children.

Not the first time people took a legitimate religion/ holy day and commercialised the hell out of it. your concerns can be summed up with this cartoon.

[WallofYawn]

Wow, that cartoon is disturbingly accurate. So true. So true.

[Bolo]

At 12/13/11 09:55 PM, Gario wrote: Rick Perry is a moron who disgraces the United States image with his platform for candidacy. It doesn't mean that everyone who says 'Merry Christmas' or would like to celebrate the holiday publically is trying to start a theocracy - you're creating a slippery slope.

Rick Perry claims to speak for all Christians, and certainly anybody who agrees with him on the essential point of his ad is in favor of the creation of a theocracy. That is the only point I am trying to make.