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Unemployment falls to 8.6%

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gumOnShoe
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Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 08:36:17 Reply

Which means we're finally down below 9%.

Haven't been here since 2009. Feels good. We're still going too slow. But we're going positive and have been for a year. :)

Guess Obama isn't sooooo bad for the economy after all.


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Proteas
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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 09:15:47 Reply

At 12/2/11 08:36 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Guess Obama isn't sooooo bad for the economy after all.

And the cult of personality that surrounds our president wastes no time giving him the credit.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 09:16:55 Reply

This wasn't Obama's doing. This was Chuck-Fucking-Norris.
Give credit where it's due, son.

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 09:44:05 Reply

The fact of the matter is the numbers are 'fixed'

Now before the more rabbid of you jump all over me about how the source IYO is the best blah ,, blah ,, blah.
THe numbers a re fixed to ONLY A SEGMENT OF THE ACTUAL UNEMPLOYED.
http://www.oyetimes.com/news/america/861 7-us-unemployment-numbers-what-dont-they -tell-us

As you can see they only post the numbers in the news, for what is refered to as the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) & they, if you look in the link, deal with only a small segment of THE ACTUAL ENTIRE GROUP of unemployed people.

The criteria is listed there, & it is why the "REAL number of unemploeyed is approximately double the 'official' figure.

So patting anyone on the back is IMO somewhat premature.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 11:15:48 Reply

At 12/2/11 08:36 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Which means we're finally down below 9%.

Well, I recently got a job so I guess things are better!


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 18:57:01 Reply

Erm last I checked the President doesn't have too much control over that, it's hard to create new permanent jobs in times of a recession especially that these unemployed could be.

At 12/2/11 09:15 AM, Proteas wrote:
At 12/2/11 08:36 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Guess Obama isn't sooooo bad for the economy after all.
And the cult of personality that surrounds our president wastes no time giving him the credit.

And the anti-cult of personality against the president wastes no time saying how it got there despite him.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 19:26:50 Reply

The only jobs government can create is government jobs and they take more from the economy than they put back in. Other than government jobs they can take some money out of the economy to give a small portion of it back in the forms of tax cuts, loans & grants. All of those can create a job but, the money that was taken out of the economy first destroys at least 2.5 jobs. While government can't really create any jobs they can surely destroy some jobs by taxes & regulations. They can also influence some markets (usually negatively) by what the president says to the press.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 19:38:57 Reply

At 12/2/11 06:57 PM, Warforger wrote: And the anti-cult of personality against the president wastes no time saying how it got there despite him.

Didn't you just cite the common-sense reasons for WHY this happened sans the president's involvement?


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 20:41:35 Reply

At 12/2/11 09:44 AM, morefngdbs wrote: The fact of the matter is the numbers are 'fixed'

Now before the more rabbid of you jump all over me about how the source IYO is the best blah ,, blah ,, blah.
THe numbers a re fixed to ONLY A SEGMENT OF THE ACTUAL UNEMPLOYED.

This guy's right, I mean, the number of unemployed black people alone is double that of the white population. 17-20% unemployment for blacks.

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-02 23:33:59 Reply

At 12/2/11 08:41 PM, WallofYawn wrote: This guy's right, I mean, the number of unemployed black people alone is double that of the white population. 17-20% unemployment for blacks.

Yeah, well, who cares about black people anyway?

Warforger, you're right, but businesses aren't exactly cheering over the healthcare law or the proposed environmental regulations. At the very least his policies have fostered uncertainty and doubt...that's bad.

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 01:49:37 Reply

At 12/2/11 11:33 PM, adrshepard wrote:
Yeah, well, who cares about black people anyway?

Is that a serious response? Because that sentence kind of makes my blood boil, if I'm being honest.

I understand there's a lot of racist people in this world, and blacks get hired less than whites, but that causes more problems than it solves, and to not care is as much a part of the problem.

Poverty is the main cause of crime and greed is the facilitator of violence, and betrayal. I don't know if you dislike black people, but I will say, I personally can't stand racists and bigots, and if you're a racist or a bigot, keep it to yourself, please.

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 08:47:16 Reply

At 12/2/11 09:15 AM, Proteas wrote:
At 12/2/11 08:36 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Guess Obama isn't sooooo bad for the economy after all.
And the cult of personality that surrounds our president wastes no time giving him the credit.

Well, you'll admit that the economy being shitty isn't his fault, right? You can't have it both ways.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 11:51:07 Reply

At 12/2/11 11:33 PM, adrshepard wrote: Yeah, well, who cares about black people anyway?

;;;
I do .
Doesn't matter what colour a persons skin is, I can understand dislike or even hate of a person for their actions, but you are a sick fuck if you dislike people just because they may have dark skin !


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 12:31:27 Reply

unemployment is still too fucking high. You know its bad when your employer can get away with paying you minimum wage when you are a tradesman.

but why fix it? this is GOOD for the rich isn't it? lets keep making it harder for smaller business to start and easier for big business to stay afloat and stagnate things some more. lets privatize our emergency services so our ambulance drivers can work for pennies as well!


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 13:31:19 Reply

At 12/3/11 08:47 AM, gumOnShoe wrote:
At 12/2/11 09:15 AM, Proteas wrote:
At 12/2/11 08:36 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Guess Obama isn't sooooo bad for the economy after all.
And the cult of personality that surrounds our president wastes no time giving him the credit.
Well, you'll admit that the economy being shitty isn't his fault, right? You can't have it both ways.

They're not mutually exclusive occurrences - it could have been someone else's fault for the poor economy and his doing that fixed the economy (or vice versa, of course).

To everyone saying that the numbers are 'fixed', those numbers are always set in that manner (even according to the article posted). Yes, actual unemployment is higher than the percentages shown, but that's always the case no matter what you're looking at, so that has little bearing on the fact that unemployment is, indeed, going down, which is good news.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 16:31:31 Reply

At 12/3/11 01:31 PM, Gario wrote: To everyone saying that the numbers are 'fixed', those numbers are always set in that manner (even according to the article posted).

;;;
Actually unless "always" means since 1994... only then would you be correct !
My link did have the other numbers in it that used to be reported, bullshit is still shit even if you call it flower fertilizer .

For a more accurate representation of what's actually going on
http://www.shadowstats.com/

I read somewhere (I can't find it again) where during the great depression the Unemployment rate was around 25%.

Presently the US is in the mid 20% region...damn near depression levels.

But no government official would ever tell you that truth !


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 17:36:08 Reply

I can see a hiring increase right before the holidays, but I'm not seeing an actual recovery. This isn't an "I hate Obama" thing. But monthly unemployment figures, and GDP figures generally, are very suspicious to me.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 18:41:34 Reply

At 12/2/11 09:15 AM, Proteas wrote: And the cult of personality that surrounds our president wastes no time giving him the credit.

Come on Proteas. You're better than that.

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 19:27:03 Reply

At 12/3/11 04:31 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
At 12/3/11 01:31 PM, Gario wrote: To everyone saying that the numbers are 'fixed', those numbers are always set in that manner (even according to the article posted).
;;;
Actually unless "always" means since 1994... only then would you be correct !
My link did have the other numbers in it that used to be reported, bullshit is still shit even if you call it flower fertilizer .

For a more accurate representation of what's actually going on
http://www.shadowstats.com/

I read somewhere (I can't find it again) where during the great depression the Unemployment rate was around 25%.

Presently the US is in the mid 20% region...damn near depression levels.

But no government official would ever tell you that truth !

Mid 20% region? Wow. That's bad. So, that would actually make black unemployment somewhere near 30-35%? We must also take into account that this is a national statistic, and statistics themselves are always flawed. It's a roundabout estimate, either way, but still not looking good.

20% of 350 million is something like 7 million I think, I'm not sure, tho. Tried to do it on my calculator, but I may have messed up.

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 19:59:29 Reply

At 12/3/11 01:49 AM, WallofYawn wrote: Is that a serious response? Because that sentence kind of makes my blood boil, if I'm being honest.

It figures that your naivete about race would make you see my remark as anything but sarcasm.
It didn't make my blood boil, but was nonetheless irritating, when I saw you talk about the black unemployment rate being higher, as if we should care more. What you undoubtedly attribute to widespread (but somehow legally unactionable) racism, I attribute to simple demographics.

Black people are, on average, less educated than white people, which leads them to generally lower paying employment. When businesses cut back production, the first people to go are the workers on the bottom level, usually because their contribution to production is the most direct (but no longer needed due to poor demand) and because they are easily replaceable.

As a result, black people will have higher unemployment than white people. If you account for skills instead of race, then you'll find the unemployment rate is pretty much the same among Americanized ethnic groups (first generation immigrants usually have the disadvantage of poorer English fluency).

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-03 20:36:59 Reply

At 12/3/11 07:59 PM, adrshepard wrote:
At 12/3/11 01:49 AM, WallofYawn wrote: Is that a serious response? Because that sentence kind of makes my blood boil, if I'm being honest.
It figures that your naivete about race would make you see my remark as anything but sarcasm.

It's not naivete, it's that sarcasm doesn't show well in text form. I can't tell what your tone is, so I have no idea whether you're being serious. Thus me asking whether that was a serious response or not.

It didn't make my blood boil, but was nonetheless irritating, when I saw you talk about the black unemployment rate being higher, as if we should care more. What you undoubtedly attribute to widespread (but somehow legally unactionable) racism, I attribute to simple demographics.

It is actually a fact that employers will higher a white guy before they'll higher a black guy. And FYI: I am a white guy, and I've seen/experienced racism from both sides.


Black people are, on average, less educated than white people, which leads them to generally lower paying employment. When businesses cut back production, the first people to go are the workers on the bottom level, usually because their contribution to production is the most direct (but no longer needed due to poor demand) and because they are easily replaceable.

Ok, fair enough. Demographics do play a major part in it, but this doesn't account for who actually gets hired. I've seen uneducated white folk get hired to jobs, simply because they dress/act better, while I don't see black folk getting the same treatment. But hey, I admit I may be reading too deep into things.

You are correct, tho, the lowest on the totum pole usually are the first to go and these are usually blacks and mexicans, because they are the ones who take those kind of jobs.


As a result, black people will have higher unemployment than white people. If you account for skills instead of race, then you'll find the unemployment rate is pretty much the same among Americanized ethnic groups (first generation immigrants usually have the disadvantage of poorer English fluency).

Alright, I admit, it has more to do with class disparities than race. The working/lower middle class account for the majority of unemployed, and this includes less educated, and people who don't have anything beyond a HS diploma.(assuming they're smart enough to even have that) I suppose there's a disadvantage all around lately, for those new to the work force.

I remember, it took me 3-4 months to get a normal job, after I quit the carnival. I have a HS diploma, but the fact I'm 20 and have very little real-world work experience puts me at a disadvantage. Seems these days, they want you to have 2 years experience, and pay you minimum wage.(one quick glance at craigslist will show this) But, in order to get the experience, you have to have first worked at the job, which requires 2 years experience.

Kind of makes you wonder "how do I get the experience if it requires experience to even work?"

I was lucky enough to get a job at Subway. Hopefully I can build on my work experience, and work my way up into a better/higher paying job. Shit aint easy these days, tho.

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-04 00:07:43 Reply

8.5% is still far too many people with no jobs. Actually anything above 1% is too many in my opinion . People have a right to work just like they have a right to free speech and shelter.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-04 00:13:32 Reply

At 12/3/11 05:36 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: But monthly unemployment figures, and GDP figures generally, are very suspicious to me.

Totally. This number only counts those who are seeking employment and ignores underemployment.

However, any decrease in this number is good. The only scenario I can think of where it's bad is where we have had so many people give up that the number goes down even though not many new jobs have been created. With as long as things have been down, that wouldn't seem too far off...

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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-04 00:21:54 Reply

At 12/4/11 12:07 AM, Cootie wrote: 8.5% is still far too many people with no jobs. Actually anything above 1% is too many in my opinion . People have a right to work just like they have a right to free speech and shelter.

there is no right to shelter... Also, there's no inherent right to "work" either. however, at least in this country you have the right to seek any lawful employment you want, as long as you have the qualifications for the job.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-04 00:34:34 Reply

At 12/4/11 12:21 AM, Korriken wrote:
there is no right to shelter... Also, there's no inherent right to "work" either. however, at least in this country you have the right to seek any lawful employment you want, as long as you have the qualifications for the job.

I believe there should be a right to these things though. People before profits I say.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-04 02:05:42 Reply

At 12/3/11 08:36 PM, WallofYawn wrote: It is actually a fact that employers will higher a white guy before they'll higher a black guy. And FYI: I am a white guy, and I've seen/experienced racism from both sides.

It's actually a little of column A, a little of column B. Really depends on the situation and the employer. Both of you are actually right :).

Ok, fair enough. Demographics do play a major part in it, but this doesn't account for who actually gets hired. I've seen uneducated white folk get hired to jobs, simply because they dress/act better, while I don't see black folk getting the same treatment. But hey, I admit I may be reading too deep into things.

Well, nailing the interview is a big part of things. I've had friends not get jobs they were clearly qualified to do simply because they blew the interview. It's not just what they see on paper, it's what they see in person too. If they see one guy looking and speaking professional in an interview, and one guy not...race isn't going to have anything to do with how that decision gets made, that kind of seems to be what your own example says as well.

Also I have to wonder how much of the unemployment rates as well are people who'd rather sit on unemployment, or wait for a job in the field they want vs. taking something more menial or lower paying because it's "beneath them".


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-04 02:52:23 Reply

At 12/3/11 04:31 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
At 12/3/11 01:31 PM, Gario wrote: To everyone saying that the numbers are 'fixed', those numbers are always set in that manner (even according to the article posted).
;;;
Actually unless "always" means since 1994... only then would you be correct !

I actually meant basically a few years before Obama to now, so yes, I'm correct - sorry that I didn't make that clear, I was hoping that would be intuitive. Most of what happened before then couldn't really be applicable to whether or not these new numbers objectively show an improvement in the economy while Obama was in office.

So... yeah, back to what I was saying, it's a bit misleading to compare two different sets of numbers and treat it as an equal comparison; it's a form of moving the goalpost. Sheesh, if you look at the written unemployment and then compare it to the actual unemployment a few years later, of course it's going to be higher, even if the economy was improving considerably in those years, since you're comparing two different graphs.

If you want to continue about how shitty our economy is, I agree it still isn't anywhere near a healthy level yet; hell, I'd even agree that we're still in a recession/depression here that's as bad if not worse than the 30's (because we do not have the same options for relief that we did in the past). I was simply pointing out that bringing in facts from different graphs skews the 'The economy isn't getting any better, even though the visible unemployment rate has dropped below 9% for the first time in years' argument in a bit of a tricky way.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-04 10:55:27 Reply

At 12/4/11 02:52 AM, Gario wrote:
At 12/3/11 04:31 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
At 12/3/11 01:31 PM, Gario wrote:
I was hoping that would be intuitive.

I see, I didn't get it (your meaning) from the original post.

So... yeah, back to what I was saying, it's a bit misleading to compare two different sets of numbers and treat it as an equal comparison;

;;
It is misleading & IMO they should report, more information... personally i find just using their numbers to be misleading & I believe it may be intentional...because they really don't want to get people discouraged, or any more discouraged than they are already.

'The economy isn't getting any better, even though the visible unemployment rate has dropped below 9% for the first time in years' argument in a bit of a tricky way.

To be fair any drop in unemployment is good news.
A more concerted effort by all politicians to cut the Countries Debt. For more calls on citizens to cut their personal debt by the same group, & for them to work together in this time of crisis instead of continually infighting...if as all politicians say they have the good of the country's welfare as their main goal...they could try a bit harder to 'give' a little to reign in spending. EHll even if it was symbolic, like everyone taking a paycut. Sure it would do little when you look at trillions of dollars of debt.
Hell they couldn't come to an agreement on doing too little to late recentlyin attempting to trim the budget...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/pol itics/congressional-deficit-cutting-grou p-faces-an-uphill-fight.html?_r=1&pagewa nted=all

But symbolism can often be used as a rallying point & any decreasing in the debt load can't hurt !


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-06 20:06:16 Reply

In terms of 2012 presidential politics...

* This is a good first step for Obama. If this is a trend that last through November 2012...he could possibly go into the election with an Unemployment rate under 7.8% which would make him very tough to beat.

* However, we'll have to see if this is a real reduction in the unemployment rate. I've seen several people make the argument here that this number is illusionary. If the electorate perceives this as the exit of people from the workforce and the challenger can convince the population that the real unemployment rate is much higher and not going down...then Obama will face an uphill challenge for re-election.

* Another interesting thing is if this is a short-termed trend and then it shoots back up, Obama can say this is a good thing. Because now people are re-entering the workforce. If other economic indicators are going up such as individual incomes then this could be an easy sell.

On another note, the Border Patrol announced that arrests of illegal border crossers is down to a low of around 350k for last year. Eleven years ago this number was 1.6 million. On one hand this is good because Obama can say his administration knows how to deal with the issue of illegal immigration. On the other hand, it is also (ironically) a sign that our economy is now stagnating if Mexicans aren't looking at the US as a place for relatively good paying jobs for unskilled laborers which points to economic malaise.


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Response to Unemployment falls to 8.6% 2011-12-08 00:39:03 Reply

At 12/3/11 08:47 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Well, you'll admit that the economy being shitty isn't his fault, right? You can't have it both ways.

It may not be his fault, but at the same time, there's little anybody in the office of the president can do to effect (either positively or negatively) the economy, they can only suggest that the Congress do so. And what's really sad is that this congress is pathetic when it comes to actually doing anything.

At 12/3/11 06:41 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Come on Proteas. You're better than that.

I'm simply calling it like I see it in this instance, and the way I see it, gumonshoe is giving Obama credit for things he has no control over and has done little to actually effect in a positive way. He didn't go out of his way to show that the president actually did anything, he just automatically gave him credit for doing so. And what's really shitty is that his thinking is par for the course for the average American voter. They're going to go to the polls in 2012 THINKING that the president actually accomplished something and vote for the guy AGAIN thinking he'll continue to do great things for this country.

Never mind that it was the hens that laid the eggs, Napoleon got the praise for it happening.


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