Having trouble with "inbetweening"

[JMan290]

I've been watching some videos from the survival kit and im kinda of lost so what I undertstand you have "extremes" that tell the story the "contacts" when a tip of the foot touches the ground then adding in the inbetweens to make the animation smoother.

From what I understand inbetweens are done last so that your drawing is consistent with proportion but how exactly do i draw them and how many inbetweens do I need to make it smooth?

Are inbetweens just mid drawings between the extremes and contacts?

If you can provide an example that would be very appreciative.

[fluffkomix]

Inbetweens are the drawings that go inbetween the key frames (or extremes, etc). Allow me to explain in a simpler term:

Say you had drawn a line. You wanted this line to go from one end to the other. Well obviously you would draw the two keys, where it starts and where it ends, but now you have to move it! If you were to draw a line directly in the middle of the two lines, it would start to have the illusion of movement. If you add more lines in the middle of those, you get even smoother, but slower movement. Those are called inbetweens. An inbetween is literally the shapes inbetween frame A and frame B. If you were to draw an arm moving, drawing the middle positions between the start and the finish are inbetweens.

You've been watching the animator's survival kit videos so you should know a bit. If anything you should know about timing charts, which is how we create the motion. The lines in the timing charts denote where the inbetweens should be between the keyframes, which are at the ends of the charts. Timing charts time out the motion and tell you where the inbetweens should go to get the movement you want.

How many inbetweens should you add? Well that depends on what you want! Figure it out yourself. Add frames, take away frames, practice practice practice, experiment experiment experiment! You're the master of your animation, so you get to decide. Figure out what works. Just keep in mind less inbetweens equal faster movement, and more is slower. Also keep in mind it takes at least three keyframes (for the most part), for the eye to follow the movement, more specifically in arcs.

So in summary, draw them like they were the position the person would be in between the two keyframes (or extremes), and add as many as you feel are necessary.

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!

[JMan290]

Heres my attempt feel free to critique

FBF "Inbetweening"

So the time lines are they always arched? and do you draw them on your flash when animating?

I'm hoping to get a walk together I will post my progress when I can thanks.

[JMan290]

heres my walk so far

I think something is wrong with the arms but i'm not quite sure how to fix it.

Also is there an edit post button i'm not seeing?

[JMan290]

Crap forgot link >.<
Walk

[fluffkomix]

At 12/1/11 03:18 AM, JMan290 wrote: Crap forgot link >.<
Walk

they're too similar. It's hard to tell the arms apart even with the shading because they both perform the exact same motions in the exact same positions. Vary it up a bit!

[BananasFoster]

At 12/1/11 01:05 AM, fluffkomix wrote:
So in summary, draw them like they were the position the person would be in between the two keyframes (or extremes), and add as many as you feel are necessary.

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!

Fluffkomix, that was a very nice and involved answer. Couldn't have said it better myself.

At 12/1/11 04:43 PM, psychicpebble wrote: Say you have a character bending over...

I really like the way you explained this.

JMan290, I think you did good with the legs in your walk cycle, but I agree with the comment about the arms being difficult to tell apart. I would study different walk cycles and even watch videos of people walking (there are so many different walking 'styles' that you could choose from!). Otherwise I think you're doing pretty good.

[kmau]

For help with walkcycles I recommend this: http://zeurel.deviantart.com/art/Flash-T utorial-1-Walk-Cycles-252730782
The information you get out of Zeurels tutorial can also be applied to other stuff.

[JMan290]

Alright I just read the last three posts, I'll look at the tutorial next.

Heres my second attempt, I made the arms more arm-like shapes and tried to vary the positions. It's still a bit choppy in my opinion. Maybe if I add more inbetweens?

Tell me your thoughts thanks.

Walk 2nd Attempt

[fluffkomix]

add more inbetweens on the shorter step, it goes by much too quickly

(this has been good improvement so far)

[Alcalader]

At 12/1/11 09:53 PM, kmau wrote: For help with walkcycles I recommend this: http://zeurel.deviantart.com/art/Flash-T utorial-1-Walk-Cycles-252730782
The information you get out of Zeurels tutorial can also be applied to other stuff.

I am also new to the animating (As of yesterday), that guide is great for referencing how it should look. Very concrete explanation by the way fluffkomix.

@Jman290, way to go on the progress. It looks much smoother from your first draft except for what Fluff has pointed out.

[JMan290]

I think I see what you mean. The front leg right?

[Alcalader]

At 12/2/11 09:59 PM, JMan290 wrote: I think I see what you mean. The front leg right?

I think he means both, when the right leg moves forward and the left one moves back.
It looks sped up at that point.

[JMan290]

Tweeked it a bit though i think the arms are a tad bit odd

Attempt 3

[fluffkomix]

At 12/2/11 11:15 PM, JMan290 wrote: Tweeked it a bit though i think the arms are a tad bit odd

Attempt 3

Well for one minor bit the anatomy is off (but this is an animation study so whatever)

I've noticed one problem with the back leg and a couple problems with the arms. Let's start with the leg shall we?

You have to watch you animation a bit to make sure it's doing what you want it to do. Scrub through it with the comma and period keys (<a nd > respectively) to go forwards and backwards through your timeline, or just scrub through it manually with your mouse to see what's going on. Add a few frames from the beginning of your cycle to the end so you can fully analyze the cycle without hoping the last frame syncs up with the first. The problem you have here is that in the second to last frame of the cycle the leg reaches its peak, then it goes forwards again in the final frame, but when it loops back to the first frame, it's back at its peak but further back, giving the legs a bit of a stutter. You always have to look through your animation to watch for that. I noticed the stutter but had to go frame by frame through the animation to figure out the exact problem.

Now as i've said before you should know about easing if you've been watching the animator's survival kit. When the closest arm (right) is at the back, it stays in the same place for too long instead of slowing in and out of the motion. It just stops and stays there for a bit. Also you should always keep in mind where the start of the motion is coming from and begin your arc from there, while letting the rest of the piece follow through. For example in a walk cycle the arm swing originates from the bicep (or shoulder for a more forced swing), and the forearm/hand should be following the bicep instead of leading the way. Think of it as slightly breaking the arm or bending it backwards to add flexibility and flow into your motion, but don't exaggerate it too much or keep it broken for too many frames. Always keep in mind how the body bends weirdly by itself by straining your own arm (or other limbs), and exaggerate that however slightly to make it more believable in animation.

The other part of the arm swing has the exact opposite problem. it hits the end and then suddenly rebounds back, as if it had hit an invisible wall or object. You need to take a few frames out of the back swing and bring them into the front swing. The back arm (left) has the same problem but in the opposite swinging positions. Fast on the back and slow on the front. Ease both sides of the arc in and then out, and follow with the arm for the maximum illusion in flexibility

hope this helps!

[Sacros]

my experience with the book you mention is that even if its perfectly explained shit wont stick that easily because animation is harder than it seems

so you gotta practice for stuff to make sense
most of us dont understand what wqe are doing yet anyways, so try things and see what looks best

welcome to nigerland, enjoy your aids

[JMan290]

At 12/3/11 03:46 AM, fluffkomix wrote:

The problem you have here is that in the second to last frame of the cycle the leg reaches its peak, then it goes forwards again in the final frame, but when it loops back to the first frame, it's back at its peak but further back, giving the legs a bit of a stutter.

Now as i've said before you should know about easing if you've been watching the animator's survival kit. When the closest arm (right) is at the back, it stays in the same place for too long instead of slowing in and out of the motion. It just stops and stays there for a bit. Also you should always keep in mind where the start of the motion is coming from and begin your arc from there, while letting the rest of the piece follow through.

The other part of the arm swing has the exact opposite problem. it hits the end and then suddenly rebounds back, as if it had hit an invisible wall or object. You need to take a few frames out of the back swing and bring them into the front swing. The back arm (left) has the same problem but in the opposite swinging positions. Fast on the back and slow on the front. Ease both sides of the arc in and then out, and follow with the arm for the maximum illusion in flexibility

hope this helps!

So for the the leg should i make it not extend out as much in the first frame or is it the second to last frame I should bring back a bit?

The to ease the arm In and out i just add more inbetweens in the beginning and the end right? Do I do this to the legs as well?

Thanks

[fluffkomix]

At 12/3/11 03:19 PM, JMan290 wrote:

At 12/3/11 03:46 AM, fluffkomix wrote:
hope this helps!

So for the the leg should i make it not extend out as much in the first frame or is it the second to last frame I should bring back a bit?

in the final frame, make the leg go exactly inbetween where the first frame leg is and where the second to last frame is. put a copy of your first frame at the end so you can be sure it loops

The to ease the arm In and out i just add more inbetweens in the beginning and the end right? Do I do this to the legs as well?

well for the arms yes for easing you add more keyframes to the beginning and end of your arcs, but only where it's too fast. On the other side just take a few out

and for the legs well, split it all up into different pieces. You don't treat the entire thing as one ease in or one ease out, you have to split it up. I like to make it slam down from the contact to down position, then ease into the up and out into the contact, back to slamming down again. Figure out what timing you want in each individual part and it will look much better. It's all up to you!

[yingxuy]

I agree with the comments about weapons is difficult to distinguish the different walk I will study period, and even watch videos of people walking..

[Adam-Beilgard]

I don't want to step on fluff's toes (he's had really good suggestions), but the physics you guys are talking about deal with 'squash and stretch' and 'anticipation', and I've learned the hard way that adding and removing frames is tedious and a steep learning curve, to boot.

Almost every non-robotic action accelerates to the midpoint and slows at the ends. If you split motion in half, then fourths, eighths, etc you get an overly smooth cycle which looks unnatural. Just try walking where your arms and legs move in a fluid motion the same speed the whole time and you'll see what I mean.

What I would suggest is starting with the first and last frames as suggested, but instead of going all halfsies, turn onions on and animate sequentially, one or two frames at a time. That way you can run through what you have and see the shift in momentum. It's still a lot of trial and error at first, but once you get the feel of it, you're set. With the 'inbetweening' you could still be guessing on pacing a year from now.

My two cents.

[Adam-Beilgard]

One example of a test I did when I first started animating, this was done by tweening over and over

Inbetweening

And again, when I revisited it from a different approach (sequentially), it's a little bit smoother

Smoother Version

[fluffkomix]

At 12/10/11 05:58 PM, Adam-Beilgard wrote: I don't want to step on fluff's toes (he's had really good suggestions), but the physics you guys are talking about deal with 'squash and stretch' and 'anticipation', and I've learned the hard way that adding and removing frames is tedious and a steep learning curve, to boot.

Thank you! While i do agree that adding and removing frames is very tedious, experimentation is necessary to developing animation skill! You practice and practice, take away frames and add them, and eventually you figure out exactly how to do things. You animate excessively so that later in life you can animate efficiently. By figuring out what an animation would look like if you took out these three frames or added some over here or redid the entire thing differently, you understand exactly how to get hte feeling you're looking for in your animation.

It does seem tedious to begin with but i liken it to practicing a sport. In hocker, for example, you would practice a wrist shot against a net hundreds of times every time you practice, so that when you're finally put up in a situation where you have to take a shot, you know exactly how to do it.

Even if it doesn't seem like it, it pays off in the long run.

Almost every non-robotic action accelerates to the midpoint and slows at the ends. If you split motion in half, then fourths, eighths, etc you get an overly smooth cycle which looks unnatural. Just try walking where your arms and legs move in a fluid motion the same speed the whole time and you'll see what I mean.

What I would suggest is starting with the first and last frames as suggested, but instead of going all halfsies, turn onions on and animate sequentially, one or two frames at a time. That way you can run through what you have and see the shift in momentum. It's still a lot of trial and error at first, but once you get the feel of it, you're set. With the 'inbetweening' you could still be guessing on pacing a year from now.

that's one of three ways of animating. One is two just go ahead and animate, but you tend to get a lot of mistakes. Another is to make all the keys first and do things mechanically, but you tend to get a lot more mechanical movement. The third way is to combine both, which is sort of what you're telling him to do but it requires a bit more planning than that.

But this is where timing charts come into play. With practice in timing charts you end up understanding how many keyframes it takes to slow things just the right amount of slow in and out. Keyframes help to understand what's going on behind the movements and will really help you learn timing quite quickly. Practice with timing charts and timing will easily go into your head.

but the physics you guys are talking about deal with 'squash and stretch' and 'anticipation',

this applies to all forms of animation, depending on what you want to do with your character. Anticipation applies to almost every single movement, and squish and squash/contact applies to every single impact. the amount you want to include (if it all) always will impact the animation and change how it feels, and it's always good to know what you're looking for and what doing something different will change in your animation, so it's good to keep these techniques in mind at all times.

My two cents.

always appreciated :)

[KLT1M]

i some what new to the animation thing and i need to get better so help anyway you can.
this is just a test something i did a while ago, took forever to do. my question is, does flash have a easier way to lip sync.

http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/446e 288d5c2b9570f52dc3a7d41555ac

[Adam-Beilgard]

At 12/11/11 06:42 PM, KLT1M wrote: i some what new to the animation thing and i need to get better so help anyway you can.
this is just a test something i did a while ago, took forever to do. my question is, does flash have a easier way to lip sync.

http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/446e 288d5c2b9570f52dc3a7d41555ac

LEOSATANOMGWTF!