At 12/1/11 08:25 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:
At 12/1/11 07:18 PM, Jedi-Master wrote:
Then, go back to my original question of why it's wrong to say "Merry Christmas" instead of using "law".
At 12/1/11 04:54 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:
"Happy Holidays" is obviously not enforced by some legal rule or anything. Rather, political correctness has encouraged people, not obligated them, to say this.
You brought up the law first, not me.
And besides, I never said it was wrong. I'm just stating on behalf of others who think that "Merry Christmas" is wrong, saying that they think it's wrong because it assumes that they are Christian, when they are not.
What I'm saying is, I don't care. I disagree that it is an endorsement of a religion. It's an endorsement of a holiday. Maybe if you had a giant cross with the story of Jesus's birth on it (with a claim of His divinity), it would be a religious endorsement. A tree symbolizing a specific holiday is NOT an endorsement of a religion.
Here's where you should stop.
perceived to be the "Christ," or savior, and Lord.Here's where you jump to religion.
You defined Christmas - a holiday - yourself.
So are you saying that Christmas does not have any ties to the Christian religion?
The holiday is inherently religious. It defies logic to say that endorsement of a religious holiday by the government is not somehow an endorsement of a particular religion.It defies your perception, not logic. "Logically" it makes perfect sense. You can endorse a holiday without endorsing an entire religion.
Not really, especially when the holiday celebrates the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
Not true. Local government institutions frequently attempt to impose Christian beliefs on others in subtle ways, and they are nearly always defeated in court for it. If you don't believe me, I'd be more than happy to substantiate my claims with dozens of links.LOL! What Christian belief is inherently bad for the public?
Any of them.
Religious beliefs, when imposed by government institutions, are bad and impermissible, because the 1st amendment says so.
Murder? Theft? Adultery? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say, or how this has anything to do with the topic.
Yet again, I must say that I'm simply replying to your assertion that there's nothing wrong with Christmas trees on public property, an imposition of religious beliefs on others.
OK, but you are wrong insofar as you have tried to marginalize the difficulties that these people face. They are mostly not offended by the beliefs of Christians. Rather, they are offended by the imposition of these beliefs on them by Christians through government institutions.Again, which of these beliefs are inherently bad? I'm not necessarily supporting it, I'm just curious as to what the problems are.
The problem is that any of these beliefs are being imposed. Good or bad, religious beliefs must not be imposed by government, because the 1st amendment says so, at least, in the U.S. anyway.
It's actually pretty accurate. You arrived at your conclusion because "Merry Christmas" doesn't actually impose a religion, and you don't perceive it that way. But still, get over yourself! Other people have different beliefs. And, it's CERTAINLY not imposing a religion on you when I say that.
You're just assuming that I'm Christian. I will apologize in saying that in this particular instance, merely saying "Merry Christmas" is no imposition of religion. However, it's incredibly ignorant to say to someone who's not Christian, because you assume they are when you say that.
Merry Christmas, Jedi :) and a happy New Year!
Hahaha, wishing somebody a merry Christmas does not assume you are Christian. As many others have pointed out, it is very possible to celebrate Christmas as a non-Christian.
What about those people who are Muslims, Jews, etc. who don't celebrate Christmas? In those cases, my point is still valid.
If you, personally, think saying those words is a huge assumption ... I don't know ... get over it?
I didn't say it was a huge assumption.
"Pinch me so I can sue you for assault."
Pinching doesn't = assault.Exactly.
I love how you purposely excluded the rest of my text here, which seems to contradict your earlier assertion.
That's not very classy, you know.
Similarly, "Merry Christmas" is not offensive.
I'll just continue to contest this, then.
I'm not talking about separation of church and state ...
Actually, you kind of were.
I never said Christmas is a religion. I was talking about Christianity.
Then, what is your entire argument for? You just disowned everything you've been saying. How can the government endorse a "not" religion? Maybe because it's a holiday.
I didn't disown anything. You assumed that the premise of my argument was that Christmas is a religion, and therefore cannot be endorsed by government, when I said that it's a religious holiday, so endorsement of it is endorsement of Christianity.
People aren't getting upset by "a time of cheer and joy." They're getting upset over the whole "Let's endorse one particular religion through the celebration of its holiday on public property."
Do you mind elaborating to me what you meant by that?
It's not like the government is saying "Become Christian!" it's saying "Merry Christmas".
My point still stands as valid.
Hmm ... no it doesn't.
The U.S. Supreme Court, as well as many other courts and constitutions around the world disagree.
Christmas is a Christian holiday. I can't believe you don't realize why it would be an endorsement of religion.
It doesn't have to be a Christian holiday (as proven by non-Christians who celebrate it).
Non-Christians can also participate and did participate in school prayer in the U.S., but it's still religious by nature. You get my point?
So, your argument is really invalid.
Christian origins, Christian meaning, etc., make Christmas a religious holiday that is popular among non-Christians.
A historical event? Jesus was purported to be born of a virgin for religious reasons, making Christmas just as religious as Easter, and making his birth a miracle.
I guess you wouldn't know though, seeing as you are atheist.
I was a very religious Christian until last year. I come from a religious family. I have two bibles in my bedroom. I know quite a bit about these things.
And besides, atheists generally know more about the Bible than Christians. Studies show that to be true.
Christmas is - if anything - a celebration of a historical occurrence.
So is Easter.
So you admit that Jesus was resurrected? That's fine. I guess our argument is over now, lol.
You know what I mean.
Shamrocks are clovers. There's nothing Christian about that, even if they were used by Saint Patrick for Christian reasons. They're seen more as symbols of Ireland.
Lol. Christmas trees are pine trees with lights/decoration on them.
They represent Christmas, just as crosses do. Crosses aren't Christian things, but they represent Christianity.
There's nothing Christian about it. And considering the holiday is actually CALLED "St. Patrick's Day" - celebrating a Catholic teacher - you've really backed yourself into a corner.
A catholic teacher isn't part of a religion.
By your logic, we shouldn't have a Martin Luther King, Jr. day in the United States because he was a Christian minister.
"Christmas is a holiday."
"No, it's a religion."
Please tell me when I said "Christmas is a religion." If you can do that, you can have my account. I'll give you the password and everything.