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Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays

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Emma
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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-11-30 22:32:50 Reply

At 11/30/11 09:53 PM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 11/30/11 09:25 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Yeah, okay. Again, tell me if anyone gets offended by something like that.
The phrase "happy holidays" probably wouldn't exist if there weren't a significant number of people getting offended by the phrase known as "Merry Christmas."

Or, a few very important people who scream loud enough in court.

If you believe so, that's fine.
You make it seem as if historically speaking, governments that endorsed a religion never proceeded to attack other religions. Of course, history says otherwise.

Yeah well, you're separated church and state is attacking Muslims for being associated with "terrorists". So, don't tell me that a Christmas tree in town square is going to start a war.

Well making a holiday "less offensive" by taking away the meaning of it seems to be catering to all the other religions. Otherwise it would be, as you said, an attack.
It's not that people are attempting to make Christmas itself offensive; rather, they want to encourage people to say "happy holidays" to be more inclusive and eliminate the risk of offending people.

That's what I'm saying though. You are offending more people by ignoring the holiday and making blanket statements. I guess the reasoning is well-intentioned, but I don't know many people who dislike Christmas enough to not say "Merry Christmas".

And honestly, "offensiveness" is such a thrown word these days.

I thought it was a pretty basic analogy. Apparently not.
Yeah, but sports is trivial compared to religion.

You seem to think religion is trivial.

Well, a few court cases from overly exaggerative people are bad representations of popular opinion.
Actually, most Americans support the notion that the 1st amendment prohibits separation of church and state.

I'm just on Christmas ...

Philosophically, the majority shouldn't mix their majority religion with their government. No religion should be entangled with government.

I just don't see how Christmas is a problem, sorry. Maybe it's a problem to extremely passionate atheists - but, I just don't see it even if the government says Merry Christmas.

It may sound like a slippery-slope fallacy, but history shows that only bad things happen when government entangles itself with religion of any kind. I wouldn't want that to happen anywhere around the globe again.

I'm not saying the government should be Christian. I'm saying it should be okay with Christmas - a holiday ...

Damn. It's just a holiday!
A holiday that still cannot be endorsed by government.

Whatever.

Well here I'm talking about saying "Merry Christmas".
Yeah, but earlier, you linked to some article discussing Christmas trees being renamed "Holiday Trees."
....So, I'm just responding to that.

Oh okay, sorry.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-11-30 23:35:50 Reply

Everyone i have an insightful mental trip that will change this topic forever! say merry holidays and happy Christmas then affer that insightful pledge of Christmas honoring.Run from the mob run and don't look back.

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-11-30 23:49:09 Reply

I haven't gone out of my way to say "Happy Holidays," instead, and honestly, I've yet to find someone interrupting me, offended when I say "Merry Christmas." If you were offended by it on some level, I still feel like a normal person would recognize the good intentions behind it, and just let it go.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 00:28:03 Reply

I don't see the big deal. I know I'd never be offended if somebody said "happy Chanukah" or "happy Kwanza" to me. It would be kind of odd, but I'd thank them for the gesture. But I also don't see the big deal about people being upset about others saying "happy holidays". It's all inclusive and still a nice thing to say. If you think about it, it's just a more effective way to be courteous to someone when you don't know what religion, if any, they follow. People responding with "I'm an atheist", though...that's just dickish. Just say "thanks" and move on. It's the same with when somebody says "god bless you" when you sneeze. I mean, even I still say that, or more often, just "bless you".

At 11/30/11 11:17 AM, EmmaVolt wrote:
Seriously, if you're offended by the most popular and well-known holiday, just ignore it.

Well, it's impossible to ignore, but I get what you mean, and I agree.

Also, this "holiday tree" thing sounds dumb, but I don't see what's so bad about it. I mean, I think they're just being careful about the whole not endorsing any specific religion deal. That's kinda silly, I think, but whatever. I don't see a reason to be bothered by it.

At 11/30/11 11:19 AM, Natick wrote: I don't mean to offend but did you ever see that South Park episode where Stan's mom was trying to ban Christmas because it was offensive?

That was Kyle's mom, pal.

I'm not your pal, buddy!
At 11/30/11 11:59 AM, Ericho wrote: It's a rather silly thing to talk about. I remember atheist activists on TV saying that Christmas had enough secular aspects in it that they were not offended by it in contrast to public prayer which could be found as offensive.

Yep, plus a lot of us celebrate it, anyway. I do. It's my favorite holiday. To me, it's just about celebrating the winter solstice, being festive, spending time with family, eating good food, and of course, exchanging gifts. You don't have to be a Christian to love that. Although, I hate winter, and for just one reason, and that is having to shovel the driveway. If it weren't for that, I'd love it. I love the cold and the sight of snow.

At 11/30/11 12:05 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote: It's a Christmas. If you're offended by that, don't celebrate. It's literally about the celebration of Jesus' birth. I don't know why people are trying to secularise an entirely religious holiday.

I understand that for Christians, the main point of Christmas is the birth of Jesus, and it is indeed the origin of the holiday. But plenty of non-religious people enjoy celebrating the holiday for all the other aspects of it. It's just tradition, now for a lot of people, even if they don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. Plus, I'm sure most people know this, but a lot of the things about how Christmas is celebrated now comes from Saturnalia, and I'm pretty sure almost all of humanity is beyond believing in Greek/Roman mythology. Plus, you know, we've got Santa.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 00:38:31 Reply

Isn't everyone tired of people getting offended? Is everyone tired of getting offended themselves? I mean, it's all over ridiculous trivial shit.

I mean what? Someone smiles and wishes you a Merry Christmas. You know they meant have a good Holiday. They weren't forcing their beliefs or any ideas into your head.

So someone smiles at you and says Merry Christmas....will that ruin your day? I don't want anyone to wish me a happy holiday because what if i'm not planning on being happy? Stop forcing your happy beliefs down my throat. Who gives a fuck?

It's like:

Honey! You're never gonna believe what some asshole said to me today!

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 03:31:47 Reply

I was raised celebrating Christmas and still say merry Christmas sometimes, but as a general rule I say happy holidays or "have a good break" out of habit.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 06:25:22 Reply

ok im athiest and i dont understand this isnt christmas celbrating the birth of jesus? why are people offended?


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 07:17:39 Reply

I have no opinion beyond being disgusted by the annual "WAAAAH WAR ON CHRISTMAS WAAAH WE'RE VICTIMS DESPITE HOLDING ALL THE POWER" brouhaha.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 16:23:32 Reply

I live in the UK, and there's a lot of non-Christians around and even with the general political correctness I don't believe I've ever heard people using the term 'happy holidays' in order to avoid confrontation with others, and generally Christmas is the most commonly used term, even for Atheists and Muslims. I think the whole getting pissed off at people for continuing traditions is silly, however people whom get pissed off at the aforementioned people hype up the amount of people doing so far more than they should, it's usually a very small (albeit vocal) minority, and perhaps one or two politicians. The whole thing's blown out of proportion, it seems.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 16:28:25 Reply

todas mind set is if you're from an english speaking country your feelings and opinion doesnt matter aslong as everyone else is happy.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 16:40:52 Reply

I say "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!"

Because fuck you if you think that a pleasant greeting like "Merry Christmas!" is offensive, but just for you I'll say "Happy Holidays" you God damn twat.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 16:54:03 Reply

At 12/1/11 03:36 PM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 11/30/11 10:32 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Or, a few very important people who scream loud enough in court.
No one ever went to court to change "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays."
It's a social attitude, not a legal mandate.

Apparently someone did. It hasn't been like this forever.

Yeah well, you're separated church and state is attacking Muslims for being associated with "terrorists".
Not true.
The FBI and local law enforcement agencies(With the strange exception of the New York Police Department) don't really "attack" Muslims or whatever, unless you count "religious profiling" as such.

I count religious profiling as attacking. I also consider dehumanization of an associated race as attacking - along with unfair generalization and manipulation of information.

So, don't tell me that a Christmas tree in town square is going to start a war.
I never said it would, but having a Christmas tree on public property is an endorsement of religion.

What I'm saying is, I don't care. I disagree that it is an endorsement of a religion. It's an endorsement of a holiday. Maybe if you had a giant cross with the story of Jesus's birth on it (with a claim of His divinity), it would be a religious endorsement. A tree symbolizing a specific holiday is NOT an endorsement of a religion.

And honestly, there are parts of this country where non-Christians have it a little harder thanks to government.

Yeah, okay. Most of those claims are "I'm offended by this person's beliefs". I don't define that as having a hard time.

That's what I'm saying though. You are offending more people by ignoring the holiday and making blanket statements.
How is saying "Happy Holidays," a statement that is inclusive of Christmas, an attempt to ignore it?

When you remove Christmas from Christmas-related things and call it all-inclusive.

This is where my sports analogy fit in: "Related trophies should be banned, and instead be replaced by logos of completely irrelevant tournaments."

I guess the reasoning is well-intentioned, but I don't know many people who dislike Christmas enough to not say "Merry Christmas".
It's nothing to dislike. People who don't celebrate Christmas simply don't say "Merry Christmas."

That's fine. I'm just saying it's VERY immature, given the culture, to get upset when someone wishes you a merry Christmas. If there were a muslim holiday that came around this time of year, and a muslim wished me a "Happy (name of holiday)", as long as the holiday wasn't outrageously offensive, I would appreciate their offer.

It's people who get offended by Christmas enough to claim to be all-inclusive that piss me off.

And honestly, "offensiveness" is such a thrown word these days.
That doesn't diminish the feeling of being offended by those who say they are.

Yeah, it does. Very much so.

"Pinch me so I can sue you for assault."

The meaning/impact of the word "sue" here is diminished.

You mentioned court cases in response to my saying something about separation of church and state. You said that the decisions of these court cases didn't reflect popular opinion. I proved that to be untrue.

No, you didn't. You proved that the people who went to court had that opinion - and that is fairly obvious. The mere fact that more people make an effort to say "Merry Christmas" refutes the idea that most of our population is offended by Christmas.

I just don't see how Christmas is a problem, sorry. Maybe it's a problem to extremely passionate atheists - but, I just don't see it even if the government says Merry Christmas.
It's a problem to many people who aren't Christians. Believe it or not, the U.S. has religious minorities; not everyone here is Christian. The same goes for many other countries.

Lol, okay. Christmas is a holiday not a religion. Plenty of non-Christians celebrate Christmas.

The government shouldn't say Merry Christmas in any way, shape, or form. I know it sounds radical and extremely anti-Christian, but I would say the same with regard to phrases like "Happy Chanukah" or any other religious saying.

Nah, I think they should be free to say anything related to a non-offensive or exclusively religious holiday. If you get upset by a time of cheer and joy - get over yourself. It's not like the government is saying "Become Christian!" it's saying "Merry Christmas".

I'm not saying the government should be Christian. I'm saying it should be okay with Christmas - a holiday ...
Which would then result in the government endorsing Christianity, as Christmas is a Christian holiday.

No, it's endorsing a holiday! Whether you want to jump to religious conclusions is your own problem. it would be different if the government endorsed Easter - because Easter is the direct celebration of a religious belief. Christmas is - if anything - a celebration of a historical occurrence.

Oh, and what's the deal with complete impartiality to St. Patrick's Day, then? They sure love to put shamrocks everywhere. That's blatant Christianity endorsement if you know anything about the origin.

Whatever.
I'll just assume that you're agreeing with me. ;)

I don't, I'm just tired of the circular argument.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 19:27:09 Reply

Thanks to all liberals, political correctness, whiny Muslims/Jews, we can no longer say Merry Christmas because they'll either complain or blow up another plane/building. So the stupid political correct is degenerating our country. Last year, I beat up this kid because he was whining about someone writing "Merry Christmas" on the chalk board. So I told him to shut the f**k up and he didn't. So I let my fists do the talking because I can tolerate anything but idiots and liberals.

Merry Christmas and screw political correctness!

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 19:39:35 Reply

I think the people who whine about so called 'political correctness' are several magnitudes more annoying than the concept could ever be.

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-01 20:25:46 Reply

At 12/1/11 07:18 PM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/1/11 04:54 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:
"Happy Holidays" is obviously not enforced by some legal rule or anything. Rather, political correctness has encouraged people, not obligated them, to say this.

Then, go back to my original question of why it's wrong to say "Merry Christmas" instead of using "law".

What I'm saying is, I don't care. I disagree that it is an endorsement of a religion. It's an endorsement of a holiday. Maybe if you had a giant cross with the story of Jesus's birth on it (with a claim of His divinity), it would be a religious endorsement. A tree symbolizing a specific holiday is NOT an endorsement of a religion.
Define Christmas for me, please.
Last time I checked, Christmas is a holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus of Nazareth,

Here's where you should stop.

perceived to be the "Christ," or savior, and Lord.

Here's where you jump to religion.

You defined Christmas - a holiday - yourself.

The holiday is inherently religious. It defies logic to say that endorsement of a religious holiday by the government is not somehow an endorsement of a particular religion.

It defies your perception, not logic. "Logically" it makes perfect sense. You can endorse a holiday without endorsing an entire religion.

Yeah, okay. Most of those claims are "I'm offended by this person's beliefs".
Not true. Local government institutions frequently attempt to impose Christian beliefs on others in subtle ways, and they are nearly always defeated in court for it. If you don't believe me, I'd be more than happy to substantiate my claims with dozens of links.

LOL! What Christian belief is inherently bad for the public? Murder? Theft? Adultery? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say, or how this has anything to do with the topic.

I don't define that as having a hard time.
OK, but you are wrong insofar as you have tried to marginalize the difficulties that these people face. They are mostly not offended by the beliefs of Christians. Rather, they are offended by the imposition of these beliefs on them by Christians through government institutions.

Again, which of these beliefs are inherently bad? I'm not necessarily supporting it, I'm just curious as to what the problems are.

This is where my sports analogy fit in: "Related trophies should be banned, and instead be replaced by logos of completely irrelevant tournaments."
Your analogy isn't appropriate because sports don't try to impose themselves on others. Saying "Merry Christmas" technically does do this.

It's actually pretty accurate. You arrived at your conclusion because "Merry Christmas" doesn't actually impose a religion, and you don't perceive it that way. But still, get over yourself! Other people have different beliefs. And, it's CERTAINLY not imposing a religion on you when I say that.

Merry Christmas, Jedi :) and a happy New Year!

That's fine. I'm just saying it's VERY immature, given the culture, to get upset when someone wishes you a merry Christmas. If there were a muslim holiday that came around this time of year, and a muslim wished me a "Happy (name of holiday)", as long as the holiday wasn't outrageously offensive, I would appreciate their offer.
It may not be immature if the person gets offended because the oter person who wishes them a Merry Christmas ignorantly assumes that the other celebrates Christmas and is a Christian.

Hahaha, wishing somebody a merry Christmas does not assume you are Christian. As many others have pointed out, it is very possible to celebrate Christmas as a non-Christian.

If you, personally, think saying those words is a huge assumption ... I don't know ... get over it?

"Pinch me so I can sue you for assault."
Pinching doesn't = assault.

Exactly.

Similarly, "Merry Christmas" is not offensive.

No, you didn't. You proved that the people who went to court had that opinion -
Did you not click the link I gave you? It was a poll of Americans asking if they supported separation of church and state--and most supported it.

I'm not talking about separation of church and state ...

Lol, okay. Christmas is a holiday not a religion. Plenty of non-Christians celebrate Christmas.
I never said Christmas is a religion. I was talking about Christianity.

Then, what is your entire argument for? You just disowned everything you've been saying. How can the government endorse a "not" religion? Maybe because it's a holiday.

Nah, I think they should be free to say anything related to a non-offensive or exclusively religious holiday. If you get upset by a time of cheer and joy - get over yourself.
People aren't getting upset by "a time of cheer and joy." They're getting upset over the whole "Let's endorse one particular religion through the celebration of its holiday on public property."

Lol "holiday".

It's not like the government is saying "Become Christian!" it's saying "Merry Christmas".
My point still stands as valid.

Hmm ... no it doesn't.

No, it's endorsing a holiday! Whether you want to jump to religious conclusions is your own problem.
Christmas is a Christian holiday. I can't believe you don't realize why it would be an endorsement of religion.

It doesn't have to be a Christian holiday (as proven by non-Christians who celebrate it). So, your argument is really invalid.

it would be different if the government endorsed Easter - because Easter is the direct celebration of a religious belief.
How in the hell is Easter more religious than Christmas? One holiday celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ, and the other celebrates his death/"resurrection."

Easter is the celebration of a miracle that is not accepted as a historical event. To make Christmas "religious", you must add onto the Jesus story. That's how "in hell" Easter is more religious.

I guess you wouldn't know though, seeing as you are atheist.

Christmas is - if anything - a celebration of a historical occurrence.
So is Easter.

So you admit that Jesus was resurrected? That's fine. I guess our argument is over now, lol.

Oh, and what's the deal with complete impartiality to St. Patrick's Day, then? They sure love to put shamrocks everywhere. That's blatant Christianity endorsement if you know anything about the origin.
Shamrocks are clovers. There's nothing Christian about that, even if they were used by Saint Patrick for Christian reasons. They're seen more as symbols of Ireland.

Lol. Christmas trees are pine trees with lights/decoration on them. There's nothing Christian about it. And considering the holiday is actually CALLED "St. Patrick's Day" - celebrating a Catholic teacher - you've really backed yourself into a corner.

I don't, I'm just tired of the circular argument.
It's not circular at all. Please tell me how it is.

"Christmas is a holiday."

"No, it's a religion."


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 00:25:00 Reply

Political correctness does more bad than good I swear.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 00:25:56 Reply

At 12/2/11 12:25 AM, Gagsy wrote: Political correctness does more bad than good I swear.

It really does.


Well.

Shit.

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 00:38:35 Reply

Yeah, I make the effort to say Merry Christmas to everyone I can...... but usually before Christmas, 'cause, y'know...


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 00:54:37 Reply

At 12/2/11 12:20 AM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/1/11 08:25 PM, EmmaVolt wrote:
And besides, I never said it was wrong. I'm just stating on behalf of others who think that "Merry Christmas" is wrong, saying that they think it's wrong because it assumes that they are Christian, when they are not.

Okay, I guess we will just disagree here.

You defined Christmas - a holiday - yourself.
So are you saying that Christmas does not have any ties to the Christian religion?

I'm saying it doesn't have to be religious unless you want it to be. The fact that the majority of people who celebrate it also make religious connections does not make it an absolutely religious holiday.

If it's so offensive, why do so many atheists celebrate Christmas?

Religious beliefs, when imposed by government institutions, are bad and impermissible, because the 1st amendment says so.

Well then basic law is impermissible because most of it originated from religion - and, therefore - the government is wrongly endorsing it.

It's actually pretty accurate. You arrived at your conclusion because "Merry Christmas" doesn't actually impose a religion, and you don't perceive it that way. But still, get over yourself! Other people have different beliefs. And, it's CERTAINLY not imposing a religion on you when I say that.
You're just assuming that I'm Christian. I will apologize in saying that in this particular instance, merely saying "Merry Christmas" is no imposition of religion. However, it's incredibly ignorant to say to someone who's not Christian, because you assume they are when you say that.

Wishing you a "Merry Christmas" does not assume you are Christian. It assumes you celebrate Christmas.

Hahaha, wishing somebody a merry Christmas does not assume you are Christian. As many others have pointed out, it is very possible to celebrate Christmas as a non-Christian.
What about those people who are Muslims, Jews, etc. who don't celebrate Christmas? In those cases, my point is still valid.

Well, I guess the people who don't celebrate Christmas can be mature about it and ignore/tolerate those who do.

I didn't disown anything. You assumed that the premise of my argument was that Christmas is a religion, and therefore cannot be endorsed by government, when I said that it's a religious holiday, so endorsement of it is endorsement of Christianity.

And, I have shown how it is not an endorsement of Christianity - but simply a holiday. So, we're back to square one.

Lol "holiday".
Do you mind elaborating to me what you meant by that?

Ignore it. I was just going back to my main argument, because nothing has really moved.

Hmm ... no it doesn't.
The U.S. Supreme Court, as well as many other courts and constitutions around the world disagree.

I'm not asking them, I'm asking you. I want people to think for themselves for a change and not rely on outside opinion. I know what the facts are. I'm simply provoking thought as to why things are the way they are.

It doesn't have to be a Christian holiday (as proven by non-Christians who celebrate it).
Non-Christians can also participate and did participate in school prayer in the U.S., but it's still religious by nature. You get my point?

Nope. In fact, I can't see how this helps your argument at all.

So, your argument is really invalid.
Christian origins, Christian meaning, etc., make Christmas a religious holiday that is popular among non-Christians.

How does this make Christmas offensive if it is all-inclusive?

A historical event? Jesus was purported to be born of a virgin for religious reasons, making Christmas just as religious as Easter, and making his birth a miracle.

You used the word "purported", which automatically bridges the gap from history to religion. You've made no argument at all.

I guess you wouldn't know though, seeing as you are atheist.
I was a very religious Christian until last year. I come from a religious family. I have two bibles in my bedroom. I know quite a bit about these things.

Oh, that's a shame.

And besides, atheists generally know more about the Bible than Christians. Studies show that to be true.

Lol. That was completely irrelevant seeing as I am not a generalization, but an individual.

So you admit that Jesus was resurrected? That's fine. I guess our argument is over now, lol.
You know what I mean.

I don't actually. You say that Easter is the celebration of a historical event - when, accepting this event, is the core foundation of Christianity. I honestly have no idea where you were trying to go with that response, sorry.

Lol. Christmas trees are pine trees with lights/decoration on them.
They represent Christmas, just as crosses do. Crosses aren't Christian things, but they represent Christianity.

Christmas trees represent Christmas ...

There's nothing Christian about it. And considering the holiday is actually CALLED "St. Patrick's Day" - celebrating a Catholic teacher - you've really backed yourself into a corner.
A catholic teacher isn't part of a religion.

Well then, without paralleling the catholic part, I guess Jesus isn't part of a religion either.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 01:41:47 Reply

At 12/2/11 01:17 AM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/2/11 12:54 AM, EmmaVolt wrote: If it's so offensive, why do so many atheists celebrate Christmas?
An illogical question. Those atheists are irrelevant here.

I think it's perfectly logical to question the premise based on conflicting evidence - even when not speaking in absolutes. Should the offense of a radical influence an entire population? I think not.

Well then basic law is impermissible because most of it originated from religion - and, therefore - the government is wrongly endorsing it.
Prove it. I'd like to see your reasoning.

I didn't think I would need to. Laws against theft or murder have roots in religious belief. Anti-adultery laws are perhaps more closely tied, and may be a better example. Basically, the human-human commandments in the Old Testament served as some foundations for law.

Wishing you a "Merry Christmas" does not assume you are Christian. It assumes you celebrate Christmas.
And some can easily interpret that as an assumption that they adhere to the Christian faith.

Nope, you're the first one I've heard say this confidently. "Some" here is most definitely the minority.

Well, I guess the people who don't celebrate Christmas can be mature about it and ignore/tolerate those who do.
What's so immature about getting offended?

In this subject, purposefully ignoring the good intentions of others in order to avoid a religion or having "someone impose their religion on you" - and then claiming to be offended - is immature.

I'm not asking them, I'm asking you. I want people to think for themselves for a change and not rely on outside opinion.
I'm just citing expert opinion to substantiate my case. I'm more than capable of thinking for myself, and citing expert opinion does not indicate or imply inability to think for oneself.

Then, you certainly shouldn't have to use their opinions in order to defend your case. And, saying "these experts disagree with you" does not count as citing. it's simply a clever way of appearing to outnumber me.

It doesn't have to be a Christian holiday (as proven by non-Christians who celebrate it).
Non-Christians can also participate and did participate in school prayer in the U.S., but it's still religious by nature. You get my point?
Nope. In fact, I can't see how this helps your argument at all.
Participating in something that's inherently religious? Come on. I think you can see where I'm going with this.

A prayer in school isn't secularized as far as I know.

How does this make Christmas offensive if it is all-inclusive.
Whoever said Christmas is all-inclusive?

Non-Christians who celebrate it ...

Oh, that's a shame.
No, it's one of the best things that has ever happened to me. I feel a lot better now than I did as a Christian.

Naturally. But I have to ask. Why?

Lol. That was completely irrelevant seeing as I am not a generalization, but an individual.
I never said you were. I would've thought that you'd catch the implication that I made in my statement, one that is generally true.

If your implication is that you know more about the Bible than me, you would be both ignorant and arrogant seeing as you know little about me personally.

A catholic teacher isn't part of a religion.
Well then, without paralleling the catholic part, I guess Jesus isn't part of a religion either.
How would a Catholic teacher be a "part" of Catholicism?

Do you know about St. Patrick?

Admitting that Jesus was anything but a teacher would imply that you agree with the Christian claim that He is divine. Or, are you suggesting that His name alone must be strictly religious and can never be used historically?


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 03:01:19 Reply

In my case, I usually don't wish people a merry Christmas unless they say it to me first or I know that they celebrate Christmas. Honestly though, I think it's kind of silly to actually be offended by someone saying "Merry Christmas" to you, regardless of your religious views. When it is said, it's obviously meant as a polite gesture/with good intentions, the only way you should respond is in a polite manner. Those who get offended by it and make a big fuss about it usually come off as being petty, belligerent cunts.


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 09:06:07 Reply

At 12/2/11 01:41 AM, EmmaVolt wrote:

:If it's so offensive, why do so many atheists celebrate Christmas?

I'd like to chime in here, and say that your little Christmas thingy has almost nothing to do with religion. It's celebrating capitalism, if anything. (Anyway, like most of your holidays, it's stolen from Pagans.)

Feliz Navidad, little angry man.

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-02 13:20:09 Reply

At 12/2/11 04:10 AM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/2/11 01:41 AM, EmmaVolt wrote: I think it's perfectly logical to question the premise based on conflicting evidence - even when not speaking in absolutes. Should the offense of a radical influence an entire population? I think not.
Yeah but when I say that some people find it offensive, I am stating a claim that can't logically be contradicted by the fact that some atheists celebrate Christmas. The two claims are not logically incompatible, which is what you want out of your argument. Since your assertion doesn't logically contradict mine, I'd be right in saying that my point here is still quite valid.

True, but this doesn't make for a very strong argument. As I suggested, I may not disprove your statement by saying many atheists celebrate Christmas; but, just because a few people don't - and are offended by it - we shouldn't be using that to support not saying "Merry Christmas".

I didn't think I would need to. Laws against theft or murder have roots in religious belief.
No, they have roots in human psychology and biology. As a species, it wouldn't be very wise to condone murder, as it would be highly detrimental to the survival of all of us. With regard to theft, it doesn't take an entire religion to encourage the prohibition of it.

Religion has roots in psychology and biology as well. And, you can't honestly say that these laws just appeared out of nowhere. Judeo-Christian ethics have played a huge part in the formation of law and order. Whether you want to later rationalize how the laws came from psychologic evolution, you still need to admit that through this evolution, religious beliefs influenced the lawmakers (especially those in America - where your unalienable rights are literally defined as being given by God). I would say that the right to life (and liberty) is a very beneficial product of religion, wouldn't you say?

Anti-adultery laws are perhaps more closely tied, and may be a better example. Basically, the human-human commandments in the Old Testament served as some foundations for law.
It's funny, because laws against theft and murder existed long before the Old Testament was written or even conceived.

Correct, but that does not negate the fact that many laws today were founded upon Judeo-Christian values. Again, you can use the psychologic evolution argument (which I do support), but you still need to incorporate religion at some point.

Nope, you're the first one I've heard say this confidently.
Where did you get the idea that I say this with confidence? Very few times in my life am I ever confident of myself and my words, which is why I always say "If I'm not mistaken" and "maybe I'm wrong, though" frequently in real life and on these forums.

You present yourself to be confident in what you say, even when unsure - which is admirable.

It is citing by definition, and there's nothing clever about it, but thanks for complimenting me.

Lol, no problem.

A prayer in school isn't secularized as far as I know.
But even then, Christmas is not completely secularized.

But, the idea is that Christmas can be completely secularized if one wishes it to be. I can't think of a way to make prayer non-religious.

Naturally. But I have to ask. Why?
A multitude of reasons that I don't think I have enough space here to say, thanks to the limitations of the BBS. Curse this BBS! >:(
PM me about it if you're interested to see why.

Lol, yeah our posts get longer and longer with each response. I'll PM you.

If your implication is that you know more about the Bible than me, you would be both ignorant and arrogant seeing as you know little about me personally.
I never said I knew more than you about the Bible. I probably don't. I'm only saying that generally, Christians know less about their own Bible than atheists. Obviously, there are ignorant atheists and Christians who know much about the Bible. Unfortunately for many Christians, they don't know much about the Bible. I'm not talking about specific verses, but about general messages that the Bible conveys in the Old and New Testaments.

Oh okay. In that case I agree. I think it has a lot to do with their philosophy of "Oh, I'm getting to heaven now, so I don't need this ancient Book of meaningless rules and stories." It's very disappointing.

Or, are you suggesting that His name alone must be strictly religious and can never be used historically?
Used historically? What do you mean?

For instance, could there be a holiday celebrating the person Jesus without having to be religious - just as there is a holiday celebrating the person Maewyn Succat without having to be religious (St. Patrick)?


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-03 00:36:36 Reply

At 12/2/11 11:20 PM, Jedi-Master wrote:
At 12/2/11 01:20 PM, EmmaVolt wrote: Religion has roots in psychology and biology as well. And, you can't honestly say that these laws just appeared out of nowhere. Judeo-Christian ethics have played a huge part in the formation of law and order.
True, but mostly in the Western world, and not as big a role as one may think. Influenced? Yes. Tremendously? That's dubious.

Well, I'm mainly talking about the Western wold considering we're the ones who started "Happy Holidays" (and "Merry Christmas"). But, okay.

Such rights have existed not because of religion, but in spite of it. That's jut my opinion, though.

Okay, no problem.

Correct, but that does not negate the fact that many laws today were founded upon Judeo-Christian values. Again, you can use the psychologic evolution argument (which I do support), but you still need to incorporate religion at some point.
Indeed. At one point, adultery and sodomy were crimes in the U.S. and in many other Western countries.
But laws against murder, theft, etc.? I don't know about that.

They just recently had to take down a plaque dedicated to the Ten Commandments in a court room, I believe. Religion may have not been the only source for those laws, but it was certainly a primary.

But, the idea is that Christmas can be completely secularized if one wishes it to be. I can't think of a way to make prayer non-religious.
"A moment of silence."
Some school officials in the past have tried to circumvent the unconstitutionality of school prayer by making it a "moment of silence."

Oh, I had forgotten about that.

For instance, could there be a holiday celebrating the person Jesus without having to be religious - just as there is a holiday celebrating the person Maewyn Succat without having to be religious (St. Patrick)?
Probably. But I wouldn't know what kind of holiday that would be. Perhaps it would be the one where Jesus defends an adulteress from being stoned to death?

Or, perhaps one around the date of the Sermon on the Mount (slightly more like St. Patrick)?


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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-03 02:17:31 Reply

This Dec. 15th, I'm celebrating Chrismahannuquanzikka. It is the first multi-cultural holiday. You hang christmas lights on a cactus, take shots of tequilla while wearing a sombrero. The traditional holiday feat includes slices of watermelon, and some kosher bagels. ;)

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-03 04:38:25 Reply

I have a bit of a fetish for girls in tight-fitting christmas-themed costumes. With the stockings and the mini-dresses and the arbitrary candy-cane licking although I'm pretty no-one genuinely likes the taste of candy-canes.

Fucking hot. I'd celebrate that like a motherfucker.

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Response to Merry Chri- I Mean - Happy Holidays 2011-12-03 11:29:51 Reply

At 12/3/11 04:38 AM, Lintire wrote: I'm pretty no-one genuinely likes the taste of candy-canes.

I like the taste of candy canes, but I don't like the amount of candy to which it is equivalent. I'd rather have one of those small circular peppermint candies. It's the same flavor, but not too big. And have you tried peppermint ice cream? It's awesome.

Also, I don't have much of a fetish when it comes to what women wear (before they take it off). Thigh high tights are kinda hot, though.


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